Originally posted by Lord LucienI think during the whole fight Luke was tapping in and out of his anger, but was able to control it at the beginning. Like when he kicked Vader down the stairs the Emperor starts laughing and says "Use your aggressive feelings boy... Let the hate flow through you", then Luke controls it and shuts off his lightsaber. But at the end of the duel, Luke is unable to control it and eventually wears Vader down.
Even after all these years, I still don't know where the duel on the Death Star fits canonically. Was Luke winning [B]before he tapped in to his anger, or was Vader or holding back at that point, or what? [/B]
well, MOC, i have often argued that he WASN'T holding back against Luke, that Luke beat him at his prime, and that Luke was simply mistaken when he remembered the battle. So I would like to agree with you.
However, when stacked with the rest of Vader's body of work, it seems like more of a plothole if luke was able to defeat Vader UNLESS vader was holding back, and the quote (granted, from an IN-UNIVERSE, non-omniscient source) seems to tie up that plothole nicely.
actually.. what came latest would be the MOST canon. That's how it works. But as it is, nothing in the novels on the subject contradicts the movies, so they are both canon.
To be honest though, i'm not sure what side of the issue you are on at this point. What you just posted seems to contradict what you posted earlier.
Luke wasn't holding back after Vader threatened his sister, we know this for sure.
Vader may have been holding back, Luke thought he was, but that isn't necessarily true, you are free to have an opinion on it.
Where is the discrepency?
ok first of all the more media of star wars that lucas sells to others, the more plotholes introduced like there are contradictions in the clone wars animated series that disregard the exposition in AOTC.
however the descrepancy is as follows....
many argue that luke was not on par with vader in ROTJ because he was said to have been holding back against luke...
several things contradict this argumentation
1) luke was holding back also
2)its illogical that vader would hold back once luke got serious because who is going to let someone chop thier arm off?
3) the fact that luke didnt kill him when he could've is even more evidence of luke holding back
4) "if you will not fight then you will meet your destiny" says vader, those dont sound like the words of someone holding back
5) after saying the above quote vader telekenetically launches his own saber AT LUKE'S HEAD! thats not a move that someone holding back would use because if that had connected then luke wouldve died.
6) Lets be logical here (stupid TPM Bio-mumbo jumbo aside) WHY WOULD PALPATINE BE SO EAGER TO REPLACE VADER WITH SOMEONE WHO WHEN THEY GOT SERIOUS COULD CRUSH HIM? Midichlorians or not if vader was such a BMF why throw him away for someone less?
and last but not least
7) Yoda something along the lines of "know that which you need you already do" on his deathbed...essentially admitting he was ready to face vader in ROTJ, now yoda, a man who knew what vader was truly capable of, couldve continued to train luke as a force ghost if luke wasnt ready, so the final questions is, WHY WOULD YODA SEND LUKE TO FIGHT VADER IF HE HAD NO CHANCE OF WINNING? the fact that yoda sent him was proof he could win, we can tell that yoda wouldnt send the weak to figh the strong because he wouldnt send obi wan to fight palpatine. so all this concluded luke is on par with if not above,,,vader in ROTJ....
and as a side note luke when looking back on it could have just been saying it out of humility because afterall who in this world ever thinks they can beat thier own dad in a serious fight?