Anakin Skywalker (AOTC) vs. Luke Skywalker (ROTJ)

Originally posted by Man of Christ

1) luke was holding back also

Until Vader threatened his sister, then he was definitly going all out.

2)its illogical that vader would hold back once luke got serious because who is going to let someone chop thier arm off?

He did. He just kinda lay there with his arm up while luke hit the sword twice, and then his arm. Kinda the epitome of quitting.

3) the fact that luke didnt kill him when he could've is even more evidence of luke holding back

Luke didn't kill a helpless foe because he was a jedi. He even said so. That one isn't open for any form of debate. no other reason. That's not called holding back, that is called self-control.

4) "if you will not fight then you will meet your destiny" says vader, those dont sound like the words of someone holding back

This i could agree with. I already said that we share the opinion that Vader wasn't holding back. But while canon doesn't settle the issue, there is definitly a strong case for the alternative, that he was holding back, as well.

5) after saying the above quote vader telekenetically launches his own saber AT LUKE'S HEAD! thats not a move that someone holding back would use because if that had connected then luke wouldve died.

same response as 4.

6) Lets be logical here (stupid TPM Bio-mumbo jumbo aside) WHY WOULD PALPATINE BE SO EAGER TO REPLACE VADER WITH SOMEONE WHO WHEN THEY GOT SERIOUS COULD CRUSH HIM? Midichlorians or not if vader was such a BMF why throw him away for someone less?

Because Palpatine was going to live forever. He was the first Sith, we think, since Bane, to figure out essence transfer, and therefore needed a younger apprentice. Sidious was saying SCREW the rule of 2, and was in the business for a better apprentice.

and last but not least
7) Yoda something along the lines of "know that which you need you already do" on his deathbed...essentially admitting he was ready to face vader in ROTJ, now yoda, a man who knew what vader was truly capable of, couldve continued to train luke as a force ghost if luke wasnt ready, so the final questions is, WHY WOULD YODA SEND LUKE TO FIGHT VADER IF HE HAD NO CHANCE OF WINNING? the fact that yoda sent him was proof he could win, we can tell that yoda wouldnt send the weak to figh the strong because he wouldnt send obi wan to fight palpatine. so all this concluded luke is on par with if not above,,,vader in ROTJ....

Yoda sent him cause he died. That one is the easiest point to refute. Yoda told him he knew what he had to know, cause what else was he going to say? "You are screwed. But i'm dying. Tough."

Besides that: Luke obviously WASN'T ready, because he had no idea how to defend against force lightning, something that if Yoda had been serious about Luke defeating the empire, he would have taught him.

and as a side note luke when looking back on it could have just been saying it out of humility because afterall who in this world ever thinks they can beat thier own dad in a serious fight?

Well, he didn't say it. It was his innermost thought: somthing along the lines of "looking back, Luke knew that Vader had spared him. Luke knew he could never have won against his father had his father wanted him dead. "

that is a rough paraphrase, but it captures the idea.

And wolfman, be nice! 😄

Originally posted by BoratBorat
Your an idiot, 6 years earlier he was tearing down massive pillars and crushing his enemies(enemies that ripped entire space station apart) with utter ease and your trying to argue that vader was going all out in this fight unleashing every thing he has?

Your a man of crap.

then explain palpatines eagerness to throw him away at that time?
and insulting my religion is intolerance, something you shouldnt be doing, its fair to disagree with my point but dont call me an idiot atall thats is despicable and a violation of the terms of use....read your contract

How is calling you a man of crap insulting your religion? Are you an extremist?

Firstly palpatine wanted to pick luke because at that time he was potentially stronger than vader, hell it happend in TFU between marek and vader as well.
Just because he chose 2 people, 1 stronger than vader and one potentially stronger does not mean vader is weak as your trying to imply.

Oh and lastly, if you so religious what are you doing wasting your time here? Aren't you suppose to indoctrinate other people in real life and preach how "awesome" god is?

Originally posted by truejedi
Until Vader threatened his sister, then he was definitly going all out.

He did. He just kinda lay there with his arm up while luke hit the sword twice, and then his arm. Kinda the epitome of quitting.

Luke didn't kill a helpless foe because he was a jedi. He even said so. That one isn't open for any form of debate. no other reason. That's not called holding back, that is called self-control.

This i could agree with. I already said that we share the opinion that Vader wasn't holding back. But while canon doesn't settle the issue, there is definitly a strong case for the alternative, that he was holding back, as well.

same response as 4.

Because Palpatine was going to live forever. He was the first Sith, we think, since Bane, to figure out essence transfer, and therefore needed a younger apprentice. Sidious was saying SCREW the rule of 2, and was in the business for a better apprentice.

Yoda sent him cause he died. That one is the easiest point to refute. Yoda told him he knew what he had to know, cause what else was he going to say? "You are screwed. But i'm dying. Tough."

Besides that: Luke obviously WASN'T ready, because he had no idea how to defend against force lightning, something that if Yoda had been serious about Luke defeating the empire, he would have taught him.

Well, he didn't say it. It was his innermost thought: somthing along the lines of "looking back, Luke knew that Vader had spared him. Luke knew he could never have won against his father had his father wanted him dead. "

that is a rough paraphrase, but it captures the idea.

And wolfman, be nice! 😄

1) killing unarmed opponents as being against the jedi code is such an inconsistency in the jedi code, cases in point, anakin beheading dooku, mace about to kill palpatine, the exile killing a handless traya....so i RESPECTFULLY (unlike boratborat) disagree that lukes refusal to kill vader is unrelated to whether or not he was goin all out

2) i disagree that vader was quitting, if you remember they were both using djem so which is pure offense with virtually zero defense, luke legitimately beat vader at his own game

3) Yoda could have continued to train luke as a force ghost much like quigon did for obi wan, so being dead is not much of a reason for yoda not to train luke if he wanted to.

4) we cannot rule out the possibility that luke may have known how to deflect it but threw his saber down in the heat of passion, but even so he obviously had surviving it down packed as he could still move after being shocked with a current so strong that it was visible

5) i am amiguous on the innermost though one so i will leave it alone untill futher notice,,,,but what about the rest of my explanation?

Originally posted by BoratBorat
How is calling you a man of crap insulting your religion? Are you an extremist?

Firstly palpatine wanted to pick luke because at that time he was [b]potentially stronger than vader, hell it happend in TFU between marek and vader as well.
Just because he chose 2 people, 1 stronger than vader and one potentially stronger does not mean vader is weak as your trying to imply.

Oh and lastly, if you so religious what are you doing wasting your time here? Aren't you suppose to indoctrinate other people in real life and preach how "awesome" god is? [/B]

Palpatine only does the switching of apprentices when he has milked his current apprentice for all he is worth and the prospective is ready to defeat the current one....

case in point, in AOTC anakin had more POTENTIAL than dooku but wasnt more powerful than him until ROTS which is when palpatine chose to offer anakin the job......he didnt offer the job to him in AOTC....thus we can conclude that since palpatine offered luke the JOb in RoTJ that he was ready and above vader......

now to your more riddiculous point.....first of all it is not a sin to be on a forum but you would only know that if you read the Bible...
second of all....this is my spare time...i do evangelizing durring the day....so cease attacking me as i have done nothing wrong...i have respected you , and i deserve to be respected by you

Originally posted by Man of Christ

case in point, in AOTC anakin had more POTENTIAL than dooku but wasnt more powerful than him until ROTS which is when palpatine chose to offer anakin the job......he didnt offer the job to him in AOTC....thus we can conclude that since palpatine offered luke the JOb in RoTJ that he was ready and above vader......

There were plenty of things that needed to be done with dooku before he could discard him, hell whats there to say sidious wouldn't have tried to recruit anakin during TPM as a child? Right, the thing that stopped him from doing that was his plans.

Sidious simply gave anakin the opportunity when the time was right, when everything was set in motion and that recruiting anakin wouldn't have sabotaged his own plans.

Think about it, if he recruited anakin and dooku ended up dead in AOTC, would the clone war started? Would it allow sidious to get a grip on the galaxy? It would undo or set back his plans by a very long time.

And lastly, prove vader wasn't holding back against luke, luke himself admitted vader was holding back when it came to the force, several years prior he went all out against marek and that fight was epic with massive pillars flying all over the place.

Vader may have been all out when it came to sabers, but he certainly refrained from attacking luke with the force which he, could have easily crushed luke.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

now to your more riddiculous point.....first of all it is not a sin to be on a forum but you would only know that if you read the Bible...
second of all....this is my spare time...i do evangelizing durring the day....so cease attacking me as i have done nothing wrong...i have respected you , and i deserve to be respected by you

Originally posted by BoratBorat
Don't be foolish, first off why should he offer the job to anakin in AOTC? He needed dooku's charisma and used him to instigate the clone wars and giving anakin the job and killing dooku would be the very undoing of his plans and he would be sabotaging himself.

There were plenty of things that needed to be done with dooku before he could discard him, hell whats there to say sidious wouldn't have tried to recruit anakin during TPM as a child? Right, the thing that stopped him from doing that was his plans.

Sidious simply gave anakin the opportunity when the time was right, when everything was set in motion and that recruiting anakin wouldn't have sabotaged his own plans.

Think about it, if he recruited anakin and dooku ended up dead in AOTC, would the clone war started? Would it allow sidious to get a grip on the galaxy? It would undo or set back his plans by a very long time.

And lastly, prove vader wasn't holding back against luke, luke himself admitted vader was holding back when it came to the force, several years prior he went all out against marek and that fight was epic with massive pillars flying all over the place.

Vader may have been all out when it came to sabers, but he certainly refrained from attacking luke with the force which he, could have easily crushed luke.

Fine, but don't get offended when i say i hate god and hate most christians and catholics, you love god and want to spread his name im fine with that.

1) your initial paragraph actually proves my point...hence the whole "milking him for all he is worth" which i said
2) the oppurtunity was rigth because luke was above vader which is why palpatine didnt come to luke in ESB
3) siddious didnt get anakin in TPM because the jedi had him, and if he so much as tried to offer anakin traning at that time that would uncover him as a sith
4) i wont blame you for the marek piece i will simply blame lucas who for the love of money has instituted many plotholes when he magically pluggs stuff in.....still it doesnt negate my initial point
5) who is to say luke couldnt have done likewise?

It is part of the Jedi code Anakin was manipulated by Palpatine Mac had vaapad flowing through him

Originally posted by Man of Christ
Palpatine only does the switching of apprentices when he has milked his current apprentice for all he is worth and the prospective is ready to defeat the current one....

case in point, in AOTC anakin had more POTENTIAL than dooku but wasnt more powerful than him until ROTS which is when palpatine chose to offer anakin the job......he didnt offer the job to him in AOTC....thus we can conclude that since palpatine offered luke the JOb in RoTJ that he was ready and above vader......

You're also thinking rather black and white here. Just because Palpatine chose Luke in RotJ doesn't mean Luke>Vader. A young and promising Force-sensitive, the son of the "Chosen One", has literally delivered himself to you. If Luke and Vader's potential were cars, Palpatine's utilitarian nature would recognize that Luke's 2005 Chrysler 300 Prototype was newer and better than Vader's 1981 Honda, all it needs is some final touch-ups and it's good to go driving down the Dark Side highway. And Luke's can me modified to be made even better, whereas Vader's car isn't capable of anything more. On top of that, stealing Luke's car seems so easy right now--why not make a go for it? And hey, if it turns out Luke's car would rather do plummeting off a cliff, Palpatine's still got Vader's Honda to get him from point A to B.

Originally posted by Samurai100
It is part of the Jedi code Anakin was manipulated by Palpatine Mac had vaapad flowing through him

but vapaad never tainted windu unlike sora and depa billaba

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) your initial paragraph actually proves my point...hence the whole "milking him for all he is worth" which i said

Originally posted by Man of Christ

2) the oppurtunity was rigth because luke was above vader which is why palpatine didnt come to luke in ESB

Palpatine DID come to luke in ESB moron, why did palpatine give the order to vader to capture him? Why did vader keep referring to luke as the emperors prize?

The emperor WANTED luke the moment he heard of him, even the fallible wookiepedia says your wrong.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

3) siddious didnt get anakin in TPM because the jedi had him, and if he so much as tried to offer anakin traning at that time that would uncover him as a sith

Your own words murdered you.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

4) i wont blame you for the marek piece i will simply blame lucas who for the love of money has instituted many plotholes when he magically pluggs stuff in.....still it doesnt negate my initial point

How is vader being a power house a plot hole? Sorry spud, canon is canon, canon > you, vader ,according to the almighty luke himself was holding back, vader,according to common sense and logic was holding back. Canon + common sense > you.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

5) who is to say luke couldnt have done likewise?

If you can prove luke can do that, ill concede.

You obviously never played or read anything outside the movie which explains your sheer idiocy and sheer stubbornness to concede, but hey your a christian extremist so obviously now i understand why people like you don't know when to admit they are wrong and when to shut up.

You "sound" like a broken record, just shut up because you lost. Your a man of crap seriously.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
No it didn't and i refuted that and said WHY he didn't.

NO IT WASN'T. Prove luke is above vader in the force.

Palpatine DID come to luke in ESB moron, why did palpatine give the order to vader to capture him? Why did vader keep referring to luke as the emperors prize?

The emperor WANTED luke the moment he heard of him, even the fallible wookiepedia says your wrong.

Thank you for pwning yourself, the jedi had him in AOTC and in ROTS anakin was WEARY of the jedi and the jedi was spread all over the galaxy which made it 10x easier for palpatine to manipulate anakin.

Your own words murdered you.

It does because canon > you, because canon facts > your twisted mind.

How is vader being a power house a plot hole? Sorry spud, canon is canon, canon > you, vader ,according to the almighty luke himself was holding back, vader,according to common sense and logic was holding back. Canon + common sense > you.

Who is to say luke can rip massive pillars in ROTJ? He had trouble with [b]rocks just a year prior, whose to say luke can pwn people that tore an entire space station apart like vader did?

If you can prove luke can do that, ill concede.

You obviously never played or read anything outside the movie which explains your sheer idiocy and sheer stubbornness to concede, but hey your a christian extremist so obviously now i understand why people like you don't know when to admit they are wrong and when to shut up.

You "sound" like a broken record, just shut up because you lost. Your a man of crap seriously. [/B]

1) what did i just say about respect? just because i disagree with you doesnt make me crap....you are entitled to your own opinion, as am i ...so cease the personal attacks
2) you seem to miss my point about when siddious chooses to take a new apprentice, he does so when the new one can overtake the old which is what he did with both anakin and luke, hence your statement does prove mine not disprove it
3) he never directly offered to replace vader with luke in ESB, he only did that in ROTJ, he from the words sounded more like he wanted to raise luke above vader but once he saw that luke wouldnt listen to vader he himself had to let luke prove himself above vader hence ready to take his place "your hate had made you powerful, now fulfill your destiny"
4)my own words didnt pwn me for 2 reasons
wanting someone and comming on to them personally are 2 diffrent things
also you seem to negelect that i could be BOTH that anakin was more mentally malliable,,,,in EP 3 AND he was at the point where he was superior to dookul.....you fail to present why these have to be mutually exclusive
5) george lucas is to be blamed because if you look at the fighting style of vader in games it is inconsistent with films as well as his movements but those are for out of universe reasons.
6) who is to say luke cant match vaders feats?....what im saying is there is no evidence either way
7) you shouldnt insult my religion, or my character, i have respected you and deserve the same respect and for you to attack somone who has respected you is reprehensible and something you shouldnt do.
8) for the record in the Bible in Proverbs 16:18 it says that pride commeth before the fall....so i am not arrogant as you say because i adhere to the scripture...and finally...this is a minor disagreement, not something meant to be won or loss....you are making this into a battle for reasons unneccesary

look i view you as a fellow human being not to be disrespected and i deserve the same of you

Originally posted by Man of Christ
look i view you as a fellow human being not to be disrespected and i deserve the same of you

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) what did i just say about respect? just because i disagree with you doesnt make me crap....you are entitled to your own opinion, as am i ...so cease the personal attacks.

The only time ill stop attacking you is when you shut the hell up.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

2) you seem to miss my point about when siddious chooses to take a new apprentice, he does so when the new one can overtake the old which is what he did with both anakin and luke, hence your statement does prove mine not disprove it
Yes it does idiot, you

[QUOTE=12431914]Originally posted by Man of Christ
[B]
3) he never directly offered to replace vader with luke in ESB, he only did that in ROTJ, he from the words sounded more like he wanted to raise luke above vader but once he saw that luke wouldnt listen to vader he himself had to let luke prove himself above vader hence ready to take his place "your hate had made you powerful, now fulfill your destiny"

It doesn't matter if he sees luke listening to vader or not, he never intended for vader to raise him and always wanted to replace vader with luke. Don't be foolish.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

4)my own words didnt pwn me for 2 reasons
wanting someone and comming on to them personally are 2 diffrent things

I then tell you that the jedi still owned him during AOTC which is yet one more reason why he couldn't recruit anakin.

The point is your claiming that he only recruited people that were stronger than vader at that time, but i called out bullshit because luke was weak with the force at that time and palpatine recruited him only because of his untapped potential. Then you instigate this shit.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

also you seem to negelect that i could be BOTH that anakin was more mentally malliable,,,,in EP 3 AND he was at the point where he was superior to dookul.....you fail to present why these have to be mutually exclusive

Originally posted by Man of Christ

5) george lucas is to be blamed because if you look at the fighting style of vader in games it is inconsistent with films as well as his movements but those are for out of universe reasons.

Let me ask you one thing, when was vader in any real danger in the films? Other than the final blows luke gave to vader in ROTJ?

The answer? He held back most of the time, there was nothing for vader to tear apart from the walls and crush obi wan, he wasn't trying to kill luke in TESB and he wasn't going all out in ROTJ with the force.

Lukes fighting style is ALSO inconsistent by your logic, as he swings his lightsaber like a moron but in the EU he was such a badass.

Mace windu must also be inconsistent because he was so slow against sidious in ROTS yet the EU showed mace being an incredibly powerful duelist.

Hell the whole of EU must be inconsistent because force storms were never shown in the movie, force drains must also be inconsistent because the movies only showed TK and lightning.

Do you now realize how much of an idiot you are?

Originally posted by Man of Christ

6) who is to say luke cant match vaders feats?....what im saying is there is no evidence either way

Who is to say luke can match vaders feats? Im asking you to prove it and you have yet to provide a single shred of evidence.

There's plenty of proof of vaders force prowess on youtube, wookiepedia, games and novels but i am NOT going to spoon feed you.

You made the claim luke is superior to vader in the force in ROTJ, you prove it.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

7) you shouldnt insult my religion, or my character, i have respected you and deserve the same respect and for you to attack somone who has respected you is reprehensible and something you shouldnt do.

And when did i ever insult your religion? I just told you to go spread your indoctrination elsewhere, i never said christianity is bullshit so learn to read dick head.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

8) for the record in the Bible in Proverbs 16:18 it says that pride commeth before the fall....so i am not arrogant as you say because i adhere to the scripture...and finally...this is a minor disagreement, not something meant to be won or loss....you are making this into a battle for reasons unneccesary

And don't give me the crap that your following the bible, because if you did you would support communism, you would support geonocide, murder and slavery.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

look i view you as a fellow human being not to be disrespected and i deserve the same of you

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If you have to make a demand to someone to be respected, then you don't deserve it.

women had to demand a mans respect in the workplace,,,,does that mean they didnt deserve it?.........minorties had to do likewise....does that mean they didnt deserve respect?

They earned it... unlike you.

So we can't insult your religion because that would be intolerant, even though religion itself is one of the main causes for intolerance.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If you have to make a demand to someone to be respected, then you don't deserve it.

Well, he's just saying what the bible is saying and you should listen to it because the bible isn't filled with guidelines you know. Or is it?

Now Man Of Christ, couldn't you figure out that respecting eachother is important without reading the bible or following a religion? I'm not being offensive by the way, I'm being curious as to why most humans don't have the common sense to know right from wrong and need to be spoon fed by religion for this (which isn't exactly bulletproof either).

That is because most people in christianity are so damn gullible and can't think for themselves.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
Why should i when your wrong and won't shut the hell up?

But he [b]intended to replace vader with luke, sources confirmed he did the moment he heard of luke skywalker.

It doesn't matter if he sees luke listening to vader or not, he never intended for vader to raise him and always wanted to replace vader with luke. Don't be foolish.
What a way to try to divert the issue, the fact is he always wanted anakin to be his apprentice so once again you fail.
I said he wanted to recruit luke because of his potential you countered by saying anakin was weak in AOTC which is why sidious didn't try to recruit him, i countered by saying sidious needed dooku and can't replace him so he can instigate the clone wars and then i brought up how he could have recruited anakin in TPM if it didn't sabotage his plans and then you tell me he couldn't because the "jedi owned him".

I then tell you that the jedi still owned him during AOTC which is yet one more reason why he couldn't recruit anakin.

The point is your claiming that he only recruited people that were stronger than vader at that time, but i called out bullshit because luke was weak with the force at that time and palpatine recruited him only because of his untapped potential. Then you instigate this shit.

Your rational for sidious not wanting to offer anakin the job in AOTC was because anakin couldn't defeat dooku and was still relatively weak which is bull, i simply stated why sidious couldn't recruit anakin so early despite the incredible potential he had.

How is it inconsistent? Hell if you want to get technical i can argue the fighting style of vader in TESB and ANH is inconsistent because he fights so slowly in ANH against a obi wan, a seasoned jedi and hes far more acrobatic against luke in the next film.

Let me ask you one thing, when was vader in any real danger in the films? Other than the final blows luke gave to vader in ROTJ?

The answer? He held back most of the time, there was nothing for vader to tear apart from the walls and crush obi wan, he wasn't trying to kill luke in TESB and he wasn't going all out in ROTJ with the force.

Lukes fighting style is ALSO inconsistent by your logic, as he swings his lightsaber like a moron but in the EU he was such a badass.

Mace windu must also be inconsistent because he was so slow against sidious in ROTS yet the EU showed mace being an incredibly powerful duelist.

Hell the whole of EU must be inconsistent because force storms were never shown in the movie, force drains must also be inconsistent because the movies only showed TK and lightning.

Do you now realize how much of an idiot you are?

Good lord are you an idiot with low IQ? No evidence? Hello? Did you play TFU? Did you even read the EU?

Who is to say luke can match vaders feats? Im asking you to prove it and you have yet to provide a single shred of evidence.

There's plenty of proof of vaders force prowess on youtube, wookiepedia, games and novels but i am NOT going to spoon feed you.

You made the claim luke is superior to vader in the force in ROTJ, you prove it.
You don't deserve respect, you earn it and until you shut the hell up and admit your wrong, i am not going to respect you.

And when did i ever insult your religion? I just told you to go spread your indoctrination elsewhere, i never said christianity is bullshit so learn to read dick head.
Good lord don't being the bible into this, THATS unneccesary.

And don't give me the crap that your following the bible, because if you did you would support communism, you would support geonocide, murder and slavery.
Then admit your wrong and you get my respect. [/B]

when it comes to the actual arguments regarding star wars again you fail to understand that this isnt a contest and that as equals we should just agree to disagree like repsonsible adults...not like children who need to feel like they won a petty disagreement.

second you did insult my religion when you argued that christian extremists cannot admit when they are wrong....i brough in the scripture to show that even to the christian extremists admittting when you are wrong is MANDATED not DISCOURAGED in christianity.

third of all you called me a man of crap when my screen name is man of christ....a 4 year old could detect that you intened to take a stab at my religion.

christianity doesnt promote genocide and slavery but you are unfamiliar with the bible so im not suprised you think so
and 2 last things.....

1) to say that someone only deserves to be respected when they agree with you is to say that you dont believe everyone is equal...and that is a mentality that has led to racism and sexism which i am sure that you do not want to be associated with.

2) telling me to shut the H*ll up and calling me a D*(K head as you just did are a violation of the terms of use of this forum and someothing you shouldnt be doing

Originally posted by BoratBorat
They earned it... unlike you.

no one should have to earn respect when all are equal