Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Jaden doesn't have superior showings in combat. He's a padawan who lacks any kind of force mastery on the level of Malak.
He does have that lightsaber bout with Alora which shows a lot more combat skills than Malak has demonstrated. On top of beating Tavion and Ragnos at the same time. And taking down the Kothos twins and his fellow padawan at the same time (we can assume) without the use of force stasis.
Originally posted by Darth_GlentractJaden on the other hand has maybe half the experience Malak has. Jaden was stated to be above average also, but that's out of like 300 Jedi in Luke's Order as opposed to thousands in the one Malak was in. He fought some weakass Force users, but I don't consider that all to impressive. He also survived the Vong war. Big deal, but so did over a hundred other Jedi. We never see him doing anything impressive during the Vong war.
Basically, Malak wins in my book.
You'd be wrong on that count. Jaden has by now well over 3 decades as a Jedi. In those 30+ years he stopped the Ragnos crisis, and has been a veteran of two huge wars. I'd say he has more experience than Malak.
He's also going to be in more battles in Crosscurrent.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Seconded. And to add to that: Jaden was considered above average out of less than 100. The Order only reached the big double-0 by the time the Yuuzhan Vong invaded in 25 ABY. The Disciples of Ragnos Crisis circa 14 ABY would have yielded an even smaller pool for Jaden to be compared against.
I don't see how numbers matter, feats count for a lot more. How many young knights or padawans would have been able to achieve what Jaden achieved in the Ragnos crisis? Not too many I'd wager, and those Jedi would be among the elite of the elite.
Malak at the same relative age (pre Mando wars) was nowhere near as powerful.
EDIT: Scratch that, he wasn't as powerful during the Mando Wars - going by the Kotor comics.
Originally posted by Allankles
He does have that lightsaber bout with Alora which shows a lot more combat skills than Malak has demonstrated. On top of beating Tavion and Ragnos at the same time. And taking down the Kothos twins and his fellow padawan at the same time (we can assume) without the use of force stasis.
A lot more combat skills? Prove Alora was worth a damn? Stop claiming Tavion AND Ragnos. There's nothing to suggest anyone in the JA game was anything other than average, with the exception of Luke and Kyle.
Originally posted by Allankles
You'd be wrong on that count. Jaden has by now well over 3 decades as a Jedi. In those 30+ years he stopped the Ragnos crisis, and has been a veteran of two huge wars. I'd say he has more experience than Malak.He's also going to be in more battles in Crosscurrent.
A veteran of war against the vong? Prove what, if ANYTHING, Jaden did during the war. Simply saying he lived through the war doesn't make him experienced. And I would take a Jedi vs. Sith War as experience over a war against beings not felt in the force anyday. His experience, even though he's twice Malak's age, is lacking compared to Malak.
Originally posted by Allankles
I don't see how numbers matter, feats count for a lot more. How many young knights or padawans would have been able to achieve what Jaden achieved in the Ragnos crisis? Not too many I'd wager, and those Jedi would be among the elite of the elite.Malak at the same relative age (pre Mando wars) was nowhere near as powerful.
EDIT: Scratch that, he wasn't as powerful during the Mando Wars - going by the Kotor comics.
And Malak as a DLOTS has more experience, mastery, and knowledge of the force than Jaden has at twice his age.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
A lot more combat skills? Prove Alora was worth a damn? Stop claiming Tavion AND Ragnos. There's nothing to suggest anyone in the JA game was anything other than average, with the exception of Luke and Kyle.
I provided a video. Her two bladed lightsaber skills were impressive enough. Why do I have to prove anything when I have a video presentation/ Demonstrated skill says Malak has nothing. He loses by default.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
A veteran of war against the vong? Prove what, if ANYTHING, Jaden did during the war. Simply saying he lived through the war doesn't make him experienced. And I would take a Jedi vs. Sith War as experience over a war against beings not felt in the force anyday. His experience, even though he's twice Malak's age, is lacking compared to Malak.
Prove what, that he participated in the war? He is a confirmed participant in the war.
And Jaden has already been in the front lines against several dark side users, how many battles against Jedi did Malak fight? Jaden fought several dark side cultists, even 3 on 1 at some point and prevailed.
The Reborn were foot soldiers for the Ragnos cultists, Malak never fought Jedi like this, he commanded and ordered others from an armchair.
Seems you're exaGgerating things, there's no evidence that Malak was in the front lines in the JCW.
EDIT: As far as Malak's dark side mastery goes, Jaden already has a victory over one of the greatest Sith Lords, and this while still a very young (possibly early 20's or even late teens) jedi knight.
He's had 30 years since to improve his combat abilities, as we'll discover in Crosscurrent.
Originally posted by Allankles
I provided a video. Her two bladed lightsaber skills were impressive enough. Why do I have to prove anything when I have a video presentation/ Demonstrated skill says Malak has nothing. He loses by default.
You've lost this argument on 50 different occasions. I continue to entertain your posts because I have nothing to do this minute.
Feat Wars are meaningless. Unless you can put the feats into context, they're not proof of superiority. None of the opponents that Jaden faced were remotely as powerful as a Dark Lord of the Sith like Malak. He studied under Revan, and gained complete access to the entirety of their Sith Empire's knowledge (from Korriban and Malachor V). Alora and Tavion aren't competition; they're small fries. The only person that Jaden has faced on the level of someone like Malak would be Ragnos; even then, with an already beaten and weakened Tavion as his spirit's host, he wouldn't be anywhere near as strong as he was in his own actual flesh.
Originally posted by Allankles
Ineffectual because Malak has several seconds (more than enough time to swing a saber) yet he chooses not to
Allankles, you're not making any sense whatsoever. If Malak chose not to kill Revan, that obviously means he could have chose to kill him. That doesn't make it ineffectual. Ineffectual would mean it didn't have an effect on the opponent or leave the user in an advantageous position. Force Stasis is effective because it freezes the victim in place, making them unable to attack or defend; they are completely vulnerable. Your reason for calling it ineffectual is based on nothing, really.
your basically calling it PIS.
Originally posted by Advent
I'm in no way calling plot-induced stupidity on anything, perhaps you are, but you'll need to prove up.
Weren't you the one who criticized others for not reading through your posts? Good going.
I'm not calling it plot-induced stupidity. I'm wondering if you even have any idea of what the concept means since this is the second time you've said that I'm labeling it PIS. Malak talking down Revan while he's unable to move isn't classified as PIS; it might be if we assumed that Revan could do something about it, but he couldn't (therefore, no imminent threat). It might be PIS if Malak was known to be the type who didn't talk a lot, but he isn't (therefore, he didn't do something out of character). It might be PIS if Bastila didn't arrive on the scene, but she did (therefore, stopping any killing blow). It might even be PIS if Malak didn't believe he was much more powerful than Revan, but he did (therefore, no harm in letting him go). It isn't plot-induced stupidity by any standard.
We see Malak trash-talking for a moment after Bastila shows up, he ends up wasting time enough so that Bastila does a saber throw. He has to deal with her. So, it isn't something out of the ordinary or something that frankly couldn't happen or be explained rationally.
You're calling it PIS?
...Right round, baby, right round like a record, baby. Right round, round, round.
You're saying Malak was operating on CIS and PIS, a weak argument.
Strawman argument, logical fallacy, and a weak argument. 👆
Like the people who argue Maul "would've killed Obi Wan" forgetting that it was as much a display of skill and power from Obi Wan as much as it was a momentary lapse from Maul.
Except you can't equate the two. That is, what Kenobi did and what Maul didn't do. Had Maul not sat there, literally watching Obi-Wan's every move, and not reacting as he normally would, then Obi-Wan would never have killed him. Therefore, it's not "as much a display from Obi-Wan" as it was the fact that Maul just took it lying down. Hell, Zett Jukassa could do the same thing assuming Maul just stands there.
Also, you can't equate the two. That is, TPM and KotOR. In Maul's case, as I said above, he doesn't do anything while he just watches Obi-Wan kill him. In Malak's case, as I said above, he talks to Revan and is thus interrupted after his first two sentences. The latter has a legitimate reason for not acting.
Malak had a 10+ second lapse according to you, if your theory is true. Which means it's CIS or simply PIS to you, which somewhat diminishes Revan's eventual victory.
Can you stop twisting my words around, please? It's grown to be an annoyance since it's happening rather frequently with you. I never said Malak had a "lapse" of anything. What I did say was that Malak had Revan in Force Stasis for almost twenty seconds. That demonstrates the effectiveness of Force Stasis. And, in those twenty seconds, he's actually doing something that's normal for his character or any character; i.e., reacting to the situation. Ergo, you can stop the "BUT ADVENT YOU'RE CALLIN' IT PISS LOL!" ridiculousness, because I'm not since it wasn't.
He could've? Why didn't he?
This is yet another occasion where you need to take your own advice: replay KotOR. Or take mine: watch the Youtube video that you provided.
Whichever you decide, you'll end up realizing that he didn't because Bastila Shan ends up interrupting him, causing him to put Revan on hold. And I have to ask, are you suggesting that Malak couldn't have killed Revan in that state? If that's the case, then you should know the the only way that could be true is if Force Stasis made the victim invulnerable (and it doesn't, therefore I'm right by default).
This is the guy who was deathly afraid of Revan
"But even the three of you together cannot stand against my power!" - said while Revan was stuck in a Force Stasis, at Malak's mercy. That sure sounds like a frightened child terrified by the boogeyman.
"Deathly afraid of"? Not in the least bit. If Malak were deathly afraid of Revan, he wouldn't have confronted him face-to-face on the Leviathan, prepared to duel. Malak outright admits that he didn't fear Revan; he would've fought him for the mantle of Dark Lord of Sith, but an opportunity arose and he took it. This is why he acknowledges that he doesn't care what his underlings of the Sith Empire thought of his actions. There's jack-all to suggest Malak feared Revan, especially since -at that point- there was nothing to fear. If there was: prove up.
no reason why he wouldn't have killed him in the time he had, unless he thought that force stasis wasn't going to get him anywhere. Even before Bastila shows up he has the time.
The reason was outright shown in the cutscene. It was explained by me. For there to be "no reason", Malak would have had to just stand there with a blank look on his face, not doing anything. Perhaps then, you'd have a point. Unfortunately for you, he didn't and you don't.
Addressed above, I don't think it even classifies as CIS, knowing Malak's fear of Revan.
Pardon? Oh, you must be confused again. Here's what I was responding to:
Originally posted by Advent
It wasn't Malak who felt he needed to retreat; he was toying with them the entire time. If you recall, Carth Onasi outright states that even the three of them combined don't stand a snowball's chance in hell against Malak.Originally posted by Allankles
And Carth Onasi would know, considering he wasn't even in the fight?Originally posted by Advent
Yes, Carth Onasi would know. Bastila knew. Revan knew. And Malak himself knew it. Bastila goes on to sacrifice herself so that Revan could make his escape; Revan and Carth agree that they can't take him hence leaving her behind.
You didn't address it, because you know that you're dead wrong in trying to question it. Everyone on the Leviathan knew that Malak was too powerful to be dealt with at that time; this is why Carth and Revan leave Bastila behind. This is why Bastila comes to rescue; she holds off Malak so the rest of the party could escape ("her sacrifice"😉. So, besides the fact that it proves Malak was toying with them -- which supports my point about Malak not caring if Revan escapes -- it also proves that there was no reason for Malak to fear Revan, as you suggest.
A lot more combat skills? Prove Alora was worth a damn? Stop claiming Tavion AND Ragnos. There's nothing to suggest anyone in the JA game was anything other than average, with the exception of Luke and Kyle.
And Jaden is actually on par if not better than Kyle is he not? Personally I say he'd win for the pure fact that he has more actual feats (and better ones at that) that are quantifiable. Jaden fought through hordes of Darksiders and then beat Tavion and then Ragnos/Kyle. Malak's best feat is defeating 3 people who'd just been tortured till they passed out and then fought through a battleship. 😬
Not to mention that during the Mando wars he practically had 'Punching bag' tatooed on his forehead.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And Jaden is actually on par if not better than Kyle is he not? Personally I say he'd win for the pure fact that he has more actual feats (and better ones at that) that are quantifiable. Jaden fought through hordes of Darksiders and then beat Tavion and then Ragnos/Kyle. Malak's best feat is defeating 3 people who'd just been tortured till they passed out and then fought through a battleship. 😬