Greatest Lightsaber Duelist

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
In regards to luke being better at saber combat than Windu; Mace was descibed in the RoTS novel as "dozens of blades attacking from every angle" Dozens > 20. So, while Luke is an impressive duelist, he is by no means the greatest or even one of the greatest ever, relative to the likes of Yoda, Mace, and Sidious.

Did you just say that Luke isn't one of the greatest duelists ever?

And you're basing this on the fact that Mace strikes dozens of times while Luke strikes 20 times, even though Mace was using Vaapad (on Sidious= über conducting loop) which is 'not very effective' against lightsiders?

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Leia and unborn Anakin's influence on Luke's victory seemed to be more of an asset than people realize. Not too much earlier, Sidious destroyed Luke in a lightsaber duel.

Oh yes you reminded me, I was thinking of that and then I forgot. Yes Luke was indeed getting "a lot" of help in his duel with Sidious.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Did you just say that Luke isn't one of the greatest duelists ever?

And you're basing this on the fact that Mace strikes dozens of times while Luke strikes 20 times, even though Mace was using Vaapad (on Sidious= über conducting loop) which is 'not very effective' against lightsiders?

Actually, you missed the point.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Against Sidious he was described as a blur. Poetic licensing. No one's saying Mace isn't f*cking good, don't presume that.

I'm talking about when Depa was watching him fight, If I recall, she described him as being "invisible". I wasn't presuming anything. What I said is, Mace's description in combat, was more impressive than Luke's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, you missed the point.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Did you just say that Luke isn't one of the greatest duelists ever?

And you're basing this on the fact that Mace strikes dozens of times while Luke strikes 20 times, even though Mace was using Vaapad (on Sidious= über conducting loop) which is 'not very effective' against lightsiders?

Yes, that's what I said... kind of...relative to the likes of Yoda, Mace, and Sidious... Yeah you forgot that detail...

...and show me the source that explicitly states that Vaapad isn't effective against "lightsiders".

While I know that Vaapad might be enhanced by a darksiders anger/hate/rage, it isn't null and void against all others. Remember that ones own inner darkness is channeled/harnessed/focused into a "weapon of light".

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Yes, that's what I said... kind of...relative to the likes of Yoda, Mace, and Sidious... Yeah you forgot that detail...

Yeah... But you still said he was by no means... one of the greatest ever... relative to the likes of Y,M and S... I'm pretty sure... you mean that he isn't... in the same tier as them... which he actually... is.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai

...and show me the source that explicitly states that Vaapad isn't effective against "lightsiders".

While I know that Vaapad might be enhanced by a darksiders anger/hate/rage, it isn't null and void against all others. Remember that ones own inner darkness is channeled/harnessed/focused into a "weapon of light".

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He [Mace] accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center. And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt." -RotS novel

It redirects the opponents darkness at him. Light siders don't fight like dark siders do.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Yeah... But you still said he was by no means... one of the greatest ever... relative to the likes of Y,M and S... I'm pretty sure... you mean that he isn't... in the same tier as them... which he actually... is.

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He [Mace] accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center. And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt." -RotS novel

It redirects the opponents darkness at him. Light siders don't fight like dark siders do.

Once again, show me a source that states, EXPLICITLY, that Vaapad is NOT effective against anyone other than darksiders. The example you just mentioned fails to exclude Vaapad as being effective against "lightsiders". It was actually a kind of "confusion of the inverse" example. And, I fail to see any of Lukes feats w/ a lightsaber as being enough to place him in the same tier as Yoda, Mace, and Sidious. I know Luke is a ****ing beast, but he isn't at the same level as the afore mentioned three with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Once again, show me a source that states, EXPLICITLY, that Vaapad is NOT effective against anyone other than darksiders. The example you just mentioned fails to exclude Vaapad as being effective against "lightsiders". It was actually a kind of "confusion of the inverse" example. And, I fail to see any of Lukes feats w/ a lightsaber as being enough to place him in the same tier as Yoda, Mace, and Sidious. I know Luke is a ****ing beast, but he isn't at the same level as the afore mentioned three with a lightsaber.

So, it is proven that Vaapad is very effective against someone who is strong in the dark side and uses rage and fury in battle. But now you want me to prove that it would not be effective against a light sider who doesn't use his rage and fury in battle.

I'm going to use those three characters you provided. Sidious and Yoda stalemated in RotS. Mace Windu used Vaapad against Sidious and defeated him with it. But when Mace Windu uses Vaapad against Yoda, he will lose. Because Vaapad against a light sider is just plain Juyo and doesn't benefit from the advantages that Vaapad provides.

I don't know why this simple concept is so difficult to grasp.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
So, it is proven that Vaapad is very effective against someone who is strong in the dark side and uses rage and fury in battle. But now you want me to prove that it would not be effective against a light sider who doesn't use his rage and fury in battle.

I'm going to use those three characters you provided. Sidious and Yoda stalemated in RotS. Mace Windu used Vaapad against Sidious and defeated him with it. But when Mace Windu uses Vaapad against Yoda, he will lose. Because Vaapad against a light sider is just plain Juyo and doesn't benefit from the advantages that Vaapad provides.

I don't know why this simple concept is so difficult to grasp.

Yoda and Sidious stalemated yes, but Yoda had the upper hand w/ the lightsaber. Moreover, I think that had the fight happened again, Yoda would have conquered Sidious, seeing as how Yoda losing his grip on the senate pod lead to the stalemate. Yoda not only had the upper hand w/ the lightsaber, but absorbed Sidious' lightning as well, leading to the oh shit i'm 'bout to get ****ed like a drunken prom whore look. Yoda > Sidious. Also, it's funny how Depa used Vaapad against Mace (lightsider) during their duel in Shatterpoint. It wasn't Juyo, it was Vaapad. Yeah... that kind of puts a big shittin' halt to your argument. So, this simple concept that you're posturing isn't hard at all to grasp, it's just simply untrue. You misunderstand the sources that you read. Thanks, that was fun.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Yoda and Sidious stalemated yes, but Yoda had the upper hand w/ the lightsaber. Moreover, I think that had the fight happened again, Yoda would have conquered Sidious, seeing as how Yoda losing his grip on the senate pod lead to the stalemate. Yoda not only had the upper hand w/ the lightsaber, but absorbed Sidious' lightning as well, leading to the oh shit i'm 'bout to get ****ed like a drunken prom whore look. Yoda > Sidious.

Have you read the novel? If anything, it is clearly depicted as Yoda having lost the battle, not only because he couldn't hold on to the pod, but because he couldn't overpower Sidious:

-
Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just didn't have it. He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born.
-

Now you have to prove that Yoda had the upper hand with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Also, it's funny how Depa used Vaapad against Mace (lightsider) during their duel in Shatterpoint. It wasn't Juyo, it was Vaapad. Yeah... that kind of puts a big shittin' halt to your argument.

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, Mace Windu could channel his own emotions using Vaapad, but when facing a dark sider, he can also redirect his opponents emotions at themselves. Hence the term, 'superconducting loop'.

Mace was able to control Vaapad because of his mastery of the light side, while Depa fell to the Dark Side. If Depa would have fought someone like Maul or Vader, Vaapad would have allowed her to channel their anger too, which would have made her even more powerful than when she was fighting Windu.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Yeah... that kind of puts a big shittin' halt to your argument. So, this simple concept that you're posturing isn't hard at all to grasp, it's just simply untrue. You misunderstand the sources that you read. Thanks, that was fun.

Oh, you're a touchy one.

this "dozens" versus 20 strikes at once point is kinda silly and moot.

We all have agreed in the past, that the only thing being proven in these kinds of statements is that the author is showing augmented speed. Bane has similar statements attributed to him. So does Depa, so does Kit Fisto i believe. (The blur, more lightsabers than... etc... comments.)

The only true comparison we can go with is feats, and we have many more feats with a lightsaber from Luke Skywalker than from either Yoda or Sidious or Mace.

I agree it's silly and moot TJ, just trying to clarify. I think msot of the 'sane' people here would say, Luke is a top tier duelist with sabers.

Originally posted by truejedi
this "dozens" versus 20 strikes at once point is kinda silly and moot.

We all have agreed in the past, that the only thing being proven in these kinds of statements is that the author is showing augmented speed. Bane has similar statements attributed to him. So does Depa, so does Kit Fisto i believe. (The blur, more lightsabers than... etc... comments.)

The only true comparison we can go with is feats, and we have many more feats with a lightsaber from Luke Skywalker than from either Yoda or Sidious or Mace.

Also: Jinsoku is in the right, Slash.

Moar from me once I regain internet and loose the noose of apathy.

I proamise.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC

-
Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just didn't have it. He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born. [/B]

Movie > Book. In the film Yoda is clearly the better saberist, end of story.

Originally posted by wolfpack86
Movie > Book

G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).

So long as the narrative doesn't contradict the movie, it's cool.

Unfortunately for you, friendo, there's nothing in either the novel or the movie to suggest that Yoda betsed Sidious, or if Sidious bested Yoda.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Unfortunately for you, friendo, there's nothing in either the novel or the movie to suggest that Yoda betsed Sidious, or if Sidious bested Yoda. [/B]

Yeah other than the fact that Yoda was winning every saber lock, and Sidious was running from him the entire time. EDIT: Oh btw, I'm talking about their saber duel, not the fight as a whole, I realize that obviously ended in a stalemate.

Oh, I almost forgot this little tidbit. In a 2001 "Ask the Jedi Council" response by Steve Sansweet (director of fan relations) and Chris Cerasi (an editor for Lucas Books at the time), it was stated that:

When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves — and only the films.

So yes.... Movie > Book

Oh, and if you want to use something other than the movie than there's this...

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

ROTS script...

YODA: (continuing) If so powerful you are, why leave??

YODA ignites his lightsaber.

DARTH SlDIOUS: You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us.

DARTH SIDIOUS ignites his lightsaber.

YODA: Faith in your new apprentice, misplaced may be, as is your faith in the dark side of the Force.

Their swords CLASH. The battle is extremely fast and furious.

201 INT. CORUSCANT-SENATE CHAMBER-MAIN ARENA-NIGHT

PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena. YODA makes a giant leap into the control pod. The sword fighting is intense in the confined space.

203 INT. CORUSCANT-SENATE CHAMRER-MAIN ARENA-NIGHT

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

So yeah, Yoda > Sidious in sabers.