Angry Gamer sues Bungie, Microsoft

Originally posted by Nemesis X
Why are we suddenly talking about beverages while this thread is about a company getting sued for having a game with bugs and glitches?

Tort Reform, i.e, the underlying topic of the thread.

Originally posted by inimalist
so, lets say you had a car that, for no apparent reason, just stopped working 1 out of 50 times that you used it.

Do you think it would be laughable for the owner of that car to want their product to work properly?

Anything that comes with a warranty is bound to have problems at some time. Some do it sooner than others.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
Anything that comes with a warranty is bound to have problems at some time. Some do it sooner than others.

I agree with inimalist's point, so I didn't want to argue it.

But, if I were to argue against inimalist, I'd say that he's comparing apples to oranges.

Cars are much more expensive and have thousands of legal related items that have to be met for safety.

Cars dying 1 out of 50 times could endanger lives.

Simply turning the car off and turning it back on would be the same exact solution as the game locking up.

Cars glitch, too...even the software glitches.

It would have to be proven that the faulty game caused harm or had the potential to cause harm.

It's hard to pin a lawsuit on something such as entertainment not working a small fraction of the time. (Not referring to the 360 failures..just the game, which the lawsuit is about.)

I'm not arguing. I'm just posting the obvious...whether he agree or not is his problem.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
Anything that comes with a warranty is bound to have problems at some time. Some do it sooner than others.

Since I made that post, I've spent a couple of hours playing Saints Row 2 on my 360. Love the game, really.

Did the dealer missions for most of that time, and due to terrible pathing AI, lost repeatedly (though not technically a glitch...). In 2 hours, the game has frozen twice.

That standard of quality is far below that of any industry, and it is only because the products are being produced for a niche market that is willing to forgive such things that it isn't a real issue.

Lair was shipped as a broken game.

This isn't a matter of ware and tare, but rather of just substandard products being sold as complete because of deadlines and such.

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
I'm not arguing. I'm just posting the obvious...whether he agree or not is his problem.

A warranty doesn't cover a company if they produce a defective product

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree with inimalist's point, so I didn't want to argue it.

But, if I were to argue against inimalist, I'd say that he's comparing apples to oranges.

Cars are much more expensive and have thousands of legal related items that have to be met for safety.

Cars dying 1 out of 50 times could endanger lives.

Simply turning the car off and turning it back on would be the same exact solution as the game locking up.

Cars glitch, too...even the software glitches.

It would have to be proven that the faulty game caused harm or had the potential to cause harm.

It's hard to pin a lawsuit on something such as entertainment not working a small fraction of the time. (Not referring to the 360 failures..just the game, which the lawsuit is about.)

ok, in what other industry is a failure rate of 1 in 50 uses considered acceptable?

mind, I'd say, and anyone who plays games knows, it is far more often than 1 in 50 uses that a 360 or PS3 will freeze or crash.

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, in what other industry is a failure rate of 1 in 50 uses considered acceptable?

Electronics. 1 in 50 failure rate is good.

Originally posted by inimalist
mind, I'd say, and anyone who plays games knows, it is far more often than 1 in 50 uses that a 360 or PS3 will freeze or crash.

My PS3 locked up once, and it was due to the Blu-Ray movie software sucking major balls, rather than the PS3.

My 360 has locked up on me, in various forms, about 4 times.

They are both below the 1 in 50 failure rate.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Electronics. 1 in 50 failure rate is good.

no it isn't. Its not 1 in 50 items produced don't work, but that a product that is considered "working" will fail 1 in 50 times.

when was the last time you turned on your microwave and it just didn't work? or glitched out?

Originally posted by dadudemon
My PS3 locked up once, and it was due to the Blu-Ray movie software sucking major balls, rather than the PS3.

My 360 has locked up on me, in various forms, about 4 times.

They are both below the 1 in 50 failure rate.

ok

Originally posted by inimalist
no it isn't. Its not 1 in 50 items produced don't work, but that a product that is considered "working" will fail 1 in 50 times.

Yes, yes it is.

We are talking about electronics and software.

Software is a whole other ball game. An acceptable failure rate is almost arbitrary, especially when it can be patched.

For electronics, which is what I was referring to, 2% failure rate is good over 3 year period.

See the attachment below.

Originally posted by inimalist
when was the last time you turned on your microwave and it just didn't work? or glitched out?

ok

Funny you should say that. About 3 times. 2 of the times, the microwave was completely dead and it had to be replaced. The other time, it just took an unplugging and plugging back in. (2 fails were at work, the other at home.)

However, that's not what is happening with the game. It is the glitches and system lock-ups. So, that'd be like the MW dying mid nuke. lol

Here's the image.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, yes it is.

We are talking about electronics and software.

Software is a whole other ball game. An acceptable failure rate is almost arbitrary, especially when it can be patched.

For electronics, which is what I was referring to, 2% failure rate is good over 3 year period.

See the attachment below.

ok, but my point is that people consider games to be "working" even though they are full of glitches and such. I'd argue that games are less stable than most other software too.

I get what you mean with electronics, but it isn't the same. I'm not talking about a game being unusable because of a defect, but rather that the finished product produces defective experiences, though these are considered part of a working product, a standard not seen in many other industries.

That issues can be patched is no excuse for it to be released prematurely.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Funny you should say that. About 3 times. 2 of the times, the microwave was completely dead and it had to be replaced. The other time, it just took an unplugging and plugging back in. (2 fails were at work, the other at home.)

However, that's not what is happening with the game. It is the glitches and system lock-ups. So, that'd be like the MW dying mid nuke. lol

so you have garbage microwaves but invincible systems

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, but my point is that people consider games to be "working" even though they are full of glitches and such. I'd argue that games are less stable than most other software too.

Depends on your measure of stability. If you measure by the number of bytes being processed from the software, as compared to intended/desired operation, many games are actually some of the most stable software out there. Since MTBF for software is a measure of use, bytes per unit of time could very well be a good measure of "quality." However, I am not aware of anyone who measures that way as they just measure failures per unit time, not per unit byte per unit time.

But, yes, I would say that games have quite a few bugs/glitches to them. Some of the best and worst software comes from game developers.

Originally posted by inimalist
I get what you mean with electronics, but it isn't the same.

I agree. It's an apples to oranges comparison. I only know of a couple of different places where software developers can get certified...such as ISO. Meaning, it doesn't seem like the same standard is applied to software as say, Energy Star compliant consumer electronics, cars, etc.

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm not talking about a game being unusable because of a defect, but rather that the finished product produces defective experiences, though these are considered part of a working product, a standard not seen in many other industries.

No, I agree. I just think the end user doesn't deserve anything beyond the cost of the game.

Originally posted by inimalist
That issues can be patched is no excuse for it to be released prematurely.

Actually....

How many gamers do you know say stuff similar to, "I wish they would just release it now instead of continuing to push the release data back." Examples: Mass Effect, Mag.

Originally posted by inimalist
Sure,

so you have garbage microwaves but invincible systems

I wouldn't call failures from both my PS3 and Xbox 360, invincible.

don't know if this suit has any merit. It's like, you have to prove that the game makes a system that's already known as an overpriced, unreliable piece of shit the world freeze or break down. It's a real chicken and egg argument.

Serves the kid right, only tools and 12 year olds play Halo.

Real men play Call of Duty

Originally posted by KidRock
Serves the kid right, only tools and 12 year olds play Halo.

Real men play Call of Duty

I'm with the chap on this one.

Halo 3 sucked anyways.
Would've had a refund if I had a chance.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, yes it is.

We are talking about electronics and software.

Software is a whole other ball game. An acceptable failure rate is almost arbitrary, especially when it can be patched.

For electronics, which is what I was referring to, 2% failure rate is good over 3 year period.

Again though, that is not the same thing. You are considering the whole line of the product and look at the failure rate of that over a three year period.

That is not the same as the product failing every 50th time it is used.

That's what inimalist tried to tell you, then you repeated the same point again, totally disregarding inimalist's explanation (déjà vu)

It seems you have realized it, but just for good measure.

Originally posted by inimalist

That issues can be patched is no excuse for it to be released prematurely.

Unless they don't realize that a particular bug or glitch exists until after it goes into wide release. Something like that has a much better chance of popping up when there's a million people playing (and thus a million chances) than a hundred people playing and testing it out.

Also, even though that discussion was on the last page, I really hate when people bring up the McD's coffee lawsuit as an example of something frivolous, because all that does is make you look ignorant. Spend 10 seconds googling it first.

Originally posted by Peach
Unless they don't realize that a particular bug or glitch exists until after it goes into wide release. Something like that has a much better chance of popping up when there's a million people playing (and thus a million chances) than a hundred people playing and testing it out.

Also, even though that discussion was on the last page, I really hate when people bring up the McD's coffee lawsuit as an example of something frivolous, because all that does is make you look ignorant. Spend 10 seconds googling it first.

To the coffe thing: I agree that McDonalds and such places should be careful with the way their coffee is prepared, however, a customer needs to be careful when they purchase a hot product. Looking at the facts, I can't say this lawsuit was frivolus, but I also can't say I sympathise with the woman either. Personally, looking at those facts, and the fact that the woman was holding it between her legs, and manipulating the top (which, logic would dictate, greatly raises the chance of it spilling out) I would have fined McDonalds in the 1 million dollar range. 3rd degree burns are serious, and the fact that McDonalds knew that their coffee was 20 degrees hotter than the industry standard, and did nothing to change it is not right. But I can't entirely sympathise with people who can't seem to grasp the concept that trying to pull a top off of a hot liquid in their lap is probably going to get them burned.

As for the video game thing: There is a point that the industry needs to try not putting out buggy software (or hardware) but, like peach said, sometimes bugs aren't caught in production due to the vastly fewer ammounts of people playing the games. Also, the industry has to way more than just how to find every bug and fix it, the main problem being us, the never-satisfied consumer. When a company tries to fix all the gliches and bugs in their game, thus causing the release date to be pushed back several times, we complain that it is not getting out fast enough. However, when a company gets it out within the consumer's accepted time limit, we complain about it being gliched up. The game companies just can't win. There are some games, however, that are unacceptably gliched, such as Mass Effect, but Halo 3 really isn't one of them.

Actually, I ammend my coffee statement. I would have ordered that her medical bills be payed by McDonalds, and only her medical bills. No more no less. That way, McDonalds has to take responsibility for their neglectful preparation of the coffee, but the woman isn't rewarded for her stupidity.