Minato's Power Level

Originally posted by King Kandy
That is pretty strange... a technique only two people knew, what are the odds it ends up snaring all four of them... even after two were already dead.

You know now that I think about it it was a terrible deal for the first and second... I mean their only crime was being resurrected by Orochimaru, now they're basically in hell forever.

I've been thinking about this since I first read about the sealing of Biju AND I read about the Demon Fox's chakra being split into two: ying and yang.

So, that means half of the chakra is sealed away in the Shinigami and the other half in Naruto.

Unless Madara has a way to retrieve that chakra from the Demon, his Moon's Eye Plan is fail.

If he does have a way, that means the other Hokages can be freed, which includes Minato.

I get the feeling the half-split chakra is going to end up just being an aborted plot element.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I respectfully disagree. Throughout the series there have been several references to the Fourths ability. Though never directly stated it is suggested he is the strongest. When talking about Orochimaru the third admitted he probably couldn't beat him, Anko mentions she wished the fourth were still alive, as apparently he could beat Orochimaru. Jiraiya mentions the fourth was a genius that comes once a generation, and there won't be another like him for years. Kakashi believes that Naruto will Surpass the fourth.

All of those things indicate that the fourth is the strongest Hokage known to those characters. Now consider than an Old Third beat the 1st and 2nd together. While i have no doubt they were not at full strength this is a good feat. Also note how the Third states he must not allow the 3rd coffin to be summon, as it contains the fourth. While it could be interpreted as 3 Hokages would be too much, i see it as he believes he would be unable to beat the fourth.

When Sarutobi was talking being unable to defeat Orochimaru, he was way past his prime and he knew it 😬. Enma stated that his prowess against Orochimaru was miserable when compared to how he was when he was younger, or something like that. I'd take Enma's word as truth, as he was Sarutobi's personal summon and would have been at his side in many battles.

He states that Naruto can surpass the 4th, but he doesn't say that Minato had surpassed the 1st or 3rd.

Also, Kakashi's statement could be similar to how Itachi told Sasuke that he would be the only one to surpass Madara (I know he was lying), or that Sasuke can truly surpass Itachi, i.e. because they are connected.

We've had geniuses appear in many generations (Madara/Hashirama/Madara's brother, Sarutobi, Orochimaru, Minato, Itachi, Sasuke/Neji). Of those that came after Minato, I'd say Itachi was the closest to being as 'geniusy' as Minato.

It could have been a mixture of both really. 3 Kages, however weakened, is still too much for an old ninja. He flat out told the two kages that they should prepare for their defeat, and he was holding back somewhat iirc (as he didn't want to hurt them or something like that) until he found out that they would regenerate.

It's what I've been trying to say all along. The Sarutobi that is present in the manga timeline is below Minato. Though Sarutobi at his prime was most likely better than Minato.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Sounds like some FTG underrating to me. Alright this is how i see it. FTG is a time/space jutsu. Why do you think it's called that?

It's not merely highspeed. It's controlling time and/or space. Moving from A to B Instantly.

No current Naruto character has feats of being able to fight an ability like that. And this ability was winning entire battles on it's own.

As i understand it he can use this ability within parameters of his Kunai. So all he has to do is throw them in 3 or more directions, and within the area they land, he literally cannot be touched.

I already know the specifics of the FTG, and that it's a teleport. I'm also not underrating it. He was winning battles on his own true, but tbh, his enemies were nowhere near the level of the Paths.

If he's unable to KO them quickly, Nagato is bound to figure out the technique. Minato would also most likely have no clue as to what each Path could do, so he'd be at a disadvantage, for a short time though imo.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Hyperbole on Shi's part, amirite? FTG can theoretically cover more ground in the same time than Raikage could, as it's a teleport. Also, Raikage's top speed is above Minato's top speed (non-FTG) imo.

^ That is what I meant by speed.

Actually, it's a seal that is the key. He puts the seal on the kunai. He can also put his seal on anything and then appear next to the seal at any time. Thus, he could technically put his seals on any of the Paths. He has to get close to them first of course.

Originally posted by Kento
Which he had been beating on for years before VoTE though Madara wasn't blinded-by-rage in those instances. 😛

How do you know Hashirama was beating on him? Madara was spanking that ass tohslaugh

It could have been a tie or a loss for Hashirama for all we know 😬. According to Itachi, at the time Madara was the strongest ninja 😛.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
I thought I read somewhere that kishimoto said in an interview that Minato was the strongest hokage, sharing the 1st spot with a prime Sarutobi./B]

Link, NAO, or you're wrong 😠 😛

Originally posted by Darth Angel
[B] the 2nd was "the men with best combat ability". Just something to add to the debate lol.

Taijutsu most likely.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I respectfully disagree. Throughout the series there have been several references to the Fourths ability. Though never directly stated it is suggested he is the strongest. When talking about Orochimaru the third admitted he probably couldn't beat him, Anko mentions she wished the fourth were still alive, as apparently he could beat Orochimaru. Jiraiya mentions the fourth was a genius that comes once a generation, and there won't be another like him for years. Kakashi believes that Naruto will Surpass the fourth.

All of those things indicate that the fourth is the strongest Hokage known to those characters. Now consider than an Old Third beat the 1st and 2nd together. While i have no doubt they were not at full strength this is a good feat. Also note how the Third states he must not allow the 3rd coffin to be summon, as it contains the fourth. While it could be interpreted as 3 Hokages would be too much, i see it as he believes he would be unable to beat the fourth.

Sounds like some FTG underrating to me. Alright this is how i see it. FTG is a time/space jutsu. Why do you think it's called that?

It's not merely highspeed. It's controlling time and/or space. Moving from A to B Instantly.

No current Naruto character has feats of being able to fight an ability like that. And this ability was winning entire battles on it's own.

As i understand it he can use this ability within parameters of his Kunai. So all he has to do is throw them in 3 or more directions, and within the area they land, he literally cannot be touched.

No it doesn't, all of those spoke entirely in present tense, if he were alive, yes, he WOULD be strongest, since the first two Hokage were dead, and the Third was aged and weakened. They were at nowhere near full strength, the Shodai at least was shown during his full strength to be able to grapple the Kyuubi with his Wood Release jutsu, something the Fourth has not to my knowledge replicated. Um, he was already fighting Orochimaru, a Kage level ninja, and two other (Weakened) kages, it would be suicide to allow him to summon the Fourth.

Um, was there anyone disputing it was teleportation? As for no one Naruto character being able to counter that...Well, Madara has a more advanced variation of it that is activated at a whim, and it also grants him intangibility and the power to send people to other dimensions. We know the Shodai was able to combat Madara and was victorious.

That is not how FTG works. He can only teleport to each individual seal, not everything within the seal's parameters.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Unless Madara has a way to retrieve that chakra from the Demon, his Moon's Eye Plan is fail.
If he does have a way, that means the other Hokages can be freed, which includes Minato.

He probably does. That, or the Jyuubi will lose a portion of it's chakra leading to a kink in the technique. Meh.

Thing is, WRT the Kyuubi's chakra, it's just that, chakra. The other 4 area all dead...though now that you mention it, Madara might make the hokages fight for him. Wouldn't that be ironic...or they'd fight against Madara, double meh.

Or Kishimoto is just gonna drop the yin yang thing.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
When Sarutobi was talking being unable to defeat Orochimaru, he was way past his prime and he knew it 😬. Enma stated that his prowess against Orochimaru was miserable when compared to how he was when he was younger, or something like that. I'd take Enma's word as truth, as he was Sarutobi's personal summon and would have been at his side in many battles.

He states that Naruto can surpass the 4th, but he doesn't say that Minato had surpassed the 1st or 3rd.

Also, Kakashi's statement could be similar to how Itachi told Sasuke that he would be the only one to surpass Madara (I know he was lying), or that Sasuke can truly surpass Itachi, i.e. because they are connected.

We've had geniuses appear in many generations (Madara/Hashirama/Madara's brother, Sarutobi, Orochimaru, Minato, Itachi, Sasuke/Neji). Of those that came after Minato, I'd say Itachi was the closest to being as 'geniusy' as Minato.

It could have been a mixture of both really. 3 Kages, however weakened, is still too much for an old ninja. He flat out told the two kages that they should prepare for their defeat, and he was holding back somewhat iirc (as he didn't want to hurt them or something like that) until he found out that they would regenerate.

It's what I've been trying to say all along. The Sarutobi that is present in the manga timeline is below Minato. Though Sarutobi at his prime was most likely better than Minato.

I already know the specifics of the FTG, and that it's a teleport. I'm also not underrating it. He was winning battles on his own true, but tbh, his enemies were nowhere near the level of the Paths.

If he's unable to KO them quickly, Nagato is bound to figure out the technique. Minato would also most likely have no clue as to what each Path could do, so he'd be at a disadvantage, for a short time though imo.

Prime Sarutobi huh?

Well Sarutobi wasn't THAT old when Minato took over as Hokage. So Sarutobi wasn't that over the hill, so to speak, before Minato became stronger than him. Even by your logic.

This is true, but then it doesn't mean anything. Kakashi says "Only you(Naruto) can surpass the Fourth". To my, this means only Naruto is capable of surpassing the fourth in a manner that suggests the fourth is the greatest/strongest Ninja. I mean, if the fourth was for example fourth strongest, it wouldn't be as meaningful would it? he would probably say "You can surpass the fourth" since others already have. But that's not the case "Only you" are key words here that i think you're not appreciating.

I believe in that instance he's talking about their clan. So since 90% of all other characters in the Naruto series aren't Uchiha they don't really qualify.

Minato was a genius, but that's not what people said about him. "He's a genius who will only appear once a generation." Let's face it, the only one of those who has any feats that are really of 'Genius level' is Itachi, and even he isn't on Minato's level.

Nothing we have seen or heard from or about Sarutobi suggests he'd beat Minato.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
How do you know Hashirama was beating on him? Madara was spanking that ass tohslaugh

It could have been a tie or a loss for Hashirama for all we know 😬. According to Itachi, at the time Madara was the strongest ninja 😛.

😛 And according to Madara, Shodai was the greatest of their time.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Minato was a genius, but that's not what people said about him. "He's a genius who will only appear once a generation." Let's face it, the only one of those who has any feats that are really of 'Genius level' is Itachi, and even he isn't on Minato's level.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The Third admitted that he probably could not beat Orochimaru because he was very old, Orochimaru himself admitted that if the Third were ten years younger he could kill him, and he still held his own against Orochimaru. The Fourth prolly would beat Oro, Oro is on the lower end of the top tiers in Naruto now. Jiraiya did say that, yes, but he was unaware of other powers in Naruto at the time, and he hyped up Pain even greater than Minato, hyping him to nigh-biblical in abilities. Kakashi said that only he can surpass the Fourth, was this not before meeting the likes of Pain, and before he was aware of Madara? Everyone before the Fourth who is like, dead, is obviously exempt from Kakashi's statement as well.

No it doesn't, all of those spoke entirely in present tense, if he were alive, yes, he WOULD be strongest, since the first two Hokage were dead, and the Third was aged and weakened. They were at nowhere near full strength, the Shodai at least was shown during his full strength to be able to grapple the Kyuubi with his Wood Release jutsu, something the Fourth has not to my knowledge replicated. Um, he was already fighting Orochimaru, a Kage level ninja, and two other (Weakened) kages, it would be suicide to allow him to summon the Fourth.

Um, was there anyone disputing it was teleportation? As for no one Naruto character being able to counter that...Well, Madara has a more advanced variation of it that is activated at a whim, and it also grants him intangibility and the power to send people to other dimensions. We know the Shodai was able to combat Madara and was victorious.

That is not how FTG works. He can only teleport to each individual seal, not everything within the seal's parameters.

We area finally seeing eye-to-eye, you and Itoow

Sarutobi's title wasn't the "God of Shinobi" for no reason...And EA, we have absolutely no idea how much the Third's power dropped when he appointed Minato Hokage, also, him being appointed Kage does not necessarily mean he is stronger, Orochimaru was Hiruzen's first pick, although he later took it back, and the Third was stronger than Orochimaru then.

Edit: Actually, thinking back, wasn't Jiraiya the Third's SECOND choice, but he did not choose him because of his journeys? That would make Minato only his third choice. 😬

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Prime Sarutobi huh?

Well Sarutobi wasn't THAT old when Minato took over as Hokage. So Sarutobi wasn't that over the hill, so to speak, before Minato became stronger than him. Even by your logic.

Orochimaru fought Sarutobi ~12 years after Minato died. Minato become Hokage a few years before that. Passing over the torch doesn't necessarily mean that Minato was stronger at that point. We saw Sarutobi fight that many years after he gave up the seat. He was old and he was a shadow of his former self. We are also comparing them at their prime, not at the same point in time.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
This is true, but then it doesn't mean anything. Kakashi says "Only you(Naruto) can surpass the Fourth". To my, this means only Naruto is capable of surpassing the fourth in a manner that suggests the fourth is the greatest/strongest Ninja. I mean, if the fourth was for example fourth strongest, it wouldn't be as meaningful would it? he would probably say "You can surpass the fourth" since others already have. But that's not the case "Only you" are key words here that i think you're not appreciating.

How would ninja that existed before Minato be able to surpass him 😐?
Kakashi probably hasn't seen first hand what the 3rd could really do at full strength. That is definitely the case for the 1st, which is not for the 4th however.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I believe in that instance he's talking about their clan. So since 90% of all other characters in the Naruto series aren't Uchiha they don't really qualify.

Goes back to connection. Hence, Naruto would be the only one who could truly surpass his father.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Minato was a genius, but that's not what people said about him. "He's a genius who will only appear once a generation." Let's face it, the only one of those who has any feats that are really of 'Genius level' is Itachi, and even he isn't on Minato's level.

Orochimaru was a genius that only appeared once in a generation (resurrection jutsu, reincarnation). As was Sarutobi (said to have mastered every jutsu in Konoha). As was Kakashi. As was Itachi. Sasuke is arguably a better genius than Itachi when it comes to usage of techniques, but not with disposition and awareness in battle.

Minato was a great genius, I'm not arguing that. That however, does not automatically make him the strongest hokage.

Originally posted by Kento
The Will of Fire can't be beaten by some Uchiha only looking for fame. 😖hifty:

😛 And according to Madara, Shodai was the greatest of their time.

Well didn't Itachi graduate from the Academy at like 8? That's two years faster than Minato. lol

The will of fire can't be beat by the Sharingan/Hax no jutsu 😛.

Madara is a liar 😛.

He mastered the sharingan at 8. He graduated at 7. Kakashi did it at 5. So yeah...Itachi is still a better genius though 😛. Teh best of his generation. As was Kakashi. As is Sasuke (in part two at least imo)

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sarutobi's title wasn't the "God of Shinobi" for no reason...And EA, we have absolutely no idea how much the Third's power dropped when he appointed Minato Hokage, also, him being appointed Kage does not necessarily mean he is stronger, Orochimaru was Hiruzen's first pick, although he later took it back, and the Third was stronger than Orochimaru then.

Edit: Actually, thinking back, wasn't Jiraiya the Third's SECOND choice, but he did not choose him because of his journeys? That would make Minato only his third choice. 😬

Originally posted by NemeBro
The Third admitted that he probably could not beat Orochimaru because he was very old, Orochimaru himself admitted that if the Third were ten years younger he could kill him, and he still held his own against Orochimaru. The Fourth prolly would beat Oro, Oro is on the lower end of the top tiers in Naruto now. Jiraiya did say that, yes, but he was unaware of other powers in Naruto at the time, and he hyped up Pain even greater than Minato, hyping him to nigh-biblical in abilities. Kakashi said that only he can surpass the Fourth, was this not before meeting the likes of Pain, and before he was aware of Madara? Everyone before the Fourth who is like, dead, is obviously exempt from Kakashi's statement as well.

No it doesn't, all of those spoke entirely in present tense, if he were alive, yes, he WOULD be strongest, since the first two Hokage were dead, and the Third was aged and weakened. They were at nowhere near full strength, the Shodai at least was shown during his full strength to be able to grapple the Kyuubi with his Wood Release jutsu, something the Fourth has not to my knowledge replicated. Um, he was already fighting Orochimaru, a Kage level ninja, and two other (Weakened) kages, it would be suicide to allow him to summon the Fourth.

Um, was there anyone disputing it was teleportation? As for no one Naruto character being able to counter that...Well, Madara has a more advanced variation of it that is activated at a whim, and it also grants him intangibility and the power to send people to other dimensions. We know the Shodai was able to combat Madara and was victorious.

That is not how FTG works. He can only teleport to each individual seal, not everything within the seal's parameters.

Naruto just beat Pain, do you really think Naruto could beat the Fourth? Pain is strong because he has 6 bodies with great abilities working together. The Fourth is strong because he's unfairly fast, and has a utterly broken Jutsu. But where did Jiraiya Hype Pain up more than the Fourth? He only gave him the credit he did if my memory serves correctly because Jiraiya was told he would train a student who would bring destruction or peace in a propecy, and oh, on of his students has the Mythic Rinnegan. He jumped to a conclusion, but never hyped up Pain more than the fourth, yet, if you want to prove me wrong there Neme, i wait with great antcipation.

What nonesense. 'Grapple with the Kyuubi with his wood release'? Where did you pick up that bullsh*t? The First can control the Bijuu's like pets, like Madara can. It has nothing to do with grappling or overpowering them in any physical way. Unless you seriously think his wood techniques can physically subdue a creature who ripped itself out of a black hole at 8 tails?

I already said that was one way of looking at it. That's how you see it. I see it that the Fourth who atleast up until that point was the most Hyped up Ninja in history would kind of Kick his ass, but we all have our veiwpoints.

More advanced just means he doesn't need the markings. Also you're not exactly correct. When he marks an area, either by Kunai or other way, he can they sense all things within a certain range of that mark. He can move to the mark, but can also move within a certain distance of the mark. So what i said was true, from a certain point of veiw. If you want proof you don't need to look up, i did provide a scan i think on the first page. In it you see the Fourth teleport behind his target, not on the mark, since he marked the targets foot.

In all seriousness "during his full strength to be able to grapple the Kyuubi with his Wood Release jutsu"

If you think that's true in the way i'm reading it. You just lost several dozen pounds on the intelligence-o-meter.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The will of fire can't be beat by the Sharingan/Hax no jutsu 😛.

Madara is a liar 😛.

He mastered the sharingan at 8. He graduated at 7. Kakashi did it at 5. So yeah...Itachi is still a better genius though 😛. Teh best of his generation. As was Kakashi. As is Sasuke (in part two at least imo)

😆

😛 Sasuke's genius is overthrown by Neji.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Orochimaru fought Sarutobi ~12 years after Minato died. Minato become Hokage a few years before that. Passing over the torch doesn't necessarily mean that Minato was stronger at that point. We saw Sarutobi fight that many years after he gave up the seat. He was old and he was a shadow of his former self. We are also comparing them at their prime, not at the same point in time.

How would ninja that existed before Minato be able to surpass him 😐?
Kakashi probably hasn't seen first hand what the 3rd could really do at full strength. That is definitely the case for the 1st, which is not for the 4th however.

Goes back to connection. Hence, Naruto would be the only one who could truly surpass his father.

Orochimaru was a genius that only appeared once in a generation (resurrection jutsu, reincarnation). As was Sarutobi (said to have mastered every jutsu in Konoha). As was Kakashi. As was Itachi. Sasuke is arguably a better genius than Itachi when it comes to usage of techniques, but not with disposition and awareness in battle.

Minato was a great genius, I'm not arguing that. That however, does not automatically make him the strongest hokage.

Passing over Hokage to someone else during war means allot. Let's suppose you are correct just for this example's sake. Why else would he do it? Minato is wiser? smarter? a better tactition? I cannot think of a reason that doesn't mean Minato is in atleast one way better. And Tbh i said Sarutobi has no feats of being able to counter FTG, and so far you nor Nemebro have given me one.

Simple, Minato did not surpass them.
Yeah, well as great as that might be in your head it doesn't mean anything. The fourth was the greatest Hokage of all. They teach it at Konoga academy, and the third was present. So... go figure.

None of those had those exact words said about them. They are all geniuses. But not of the Fourth's Calibur.

Itachi was Anbu Captain at the age of 13. Sasuke's got nothing on him.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Passing over Hokage to someone else during war means allot. Let's suppose you are correct just for this example's sake. Why else would he do it? Minato is wiser? smarter? a better tactition?

Originally posted by Kento
Minato didn't become Hokage until after the war was over.

Is that right?

I thought i recalled him becoming Hokage during the war. Well, not exactly an important detail.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Naruto just beat Pain, do you really think Naruto could beat the Fourth? Pain is strong because he has 6 bodies with great abilities working together. The Fourth is strong because he's unfairly fast, and has a utterly broken Jutsu. But where did Jiraiya Hype Pain up more than the Fourth? He only gave him the credit he did if my memory serves correctly because Jiraiya was told he would train a student who would bring destruction or peace in a propecy, and oh, on of his students has the Mythic Rinnegan. He jumped to a conclusion, but never hyped up Pain more than the fourth, yet, if you want to prove me wrong there Neme, i wait with great antcipation.

What nonesense. 'Grapple with the Kyuubi with his wood release'? Where did you pick up that bullsh*t? The First can control the Bijuu's like pets, like Madara can. It has nothing to do with grappling or overpowering them in any physical way. Unless you seriously think his wood techniques can physically subdue a creature who ripped itself out of a black hole at 8 tails?

I already said that was one way of looking at it. That's how you see it. I see it that the Fourth who atleast up until that point was the most Hyped up Ninja in history would kind of Kick his ass, but we all have our veiwpoints.

More advanced just means he doesn't need the markings. Also you're not exactly correct. When he marks an area, either by Kunai or other way, he can they sense all things within a certain range of that mark. He can move to the mark, but can also move within a certain distance of the mark. So what i said was true, from a certain point of veiw. If you want proof you don't need to look up, i did provide a scan i think on the first page. In it you see the Fourth teleport behind his target, not on the mark, since he marked the targets foot.

In all seriousness "during his full strength to be able to grapple the Kyuubi with his Wood Release jutsu"

If you think that's true in the way i'm reading it. You just lost several dozen pounds on the intelligence-o-meter.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/10-11/

We can clearly see wooden tendrils of the First grappling around the Kyuubi's right legs (Both of them) and beginning to do so with its torso. Kyuubi is also visibly struggling. Make sure you are actually right before you insult my intelligence next time. Oh, and Chibaku Tensei is not an actual black hole, obviously.

One way? No, Kakashi was speaking that Naruto is the only one who can surpass the Yondaime, present tense, he did not say that Naruto will be the only one who has ever been more powerful than the Yondaime, he was speaking in terms of the present, and on limited information.

It means he not only does not need markings, no hand seals, nothing, he does it with a thought. Keep in mind this is a WEAKENED Madara, who Madara himself describes as powerless. I know he can perceive things around it, and yes, I agree he does not need to literally teleport on the mark, but in its general area.

Yeah, I proved that. Seriously, I would have hoped you would not have jumped to insulting me before even seeing my proof.