Originally posted by dadudemon
This, I agree with. Only the Sage can be called that with any degree of accuracy. I believe he was called that because he never lost a battle/fight before. Neither did Yondaime. On top of that, Yondaime went to the grave, undefeated....so he has one up on Sarutobi.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Sarutobi never lost a fight either... in fact, he died the exact same way Yondaime did.
Sarutobi certainly did lose the fight. He did NOT capture Oro's spirit. Yondaime certainly defeated the Fox and sealed it away.
Oro certainly survived with the loss of his arms for a few months. 😬
And, I'd like to add "certainly" for good measure.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Sarutobi certainly did lose the fight. He did NOT capture Oro's spirit. Yondaime certainly defeated the Fox and sealed it away.Oro certainly survived with the loss of his arms for a few months. 😬
Originally posted by King Kandy
He put an end to the fight, and Oro had to run away with his tail between his legs after that jutsu. He never killed Oro but he did what he wanted and sealed his jutsu. He was not going for a kill there.
He WAS going for a kill. 😬
Still doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the fight, Oro was alive, the 3rd was dead, and the 3rd failed to kill/seal away Oro.
That's why that fight is counted as his only loss.
Edit - Why are you even debating this? It's not something debatable. facepalm
Originally posted by dadudemon
He WAS going for a kill. 😬Still doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the fight, Oro was alive, the 3rd was dead, and the 3rd failed to kill/seal away Oro.
That's why that fight is counted as his only loss.
Edit - Why are you even debating this? It's not something debatable. facepalm
Originally posted by King Kandy
I guess we could say the kyuubi beat the fourth by this logic.
Actually, no. BTW, I've covered that already.
Originally posted by King Kandy
I mean at the end of the fight, the kyuubi was alive and the fourth was dead.
Not only was the Kyuubi defeated, he was split into two and half sealed into his son for Naruto's use (basically, a chakra slave). That's two levels of defeat.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Death doesn't matter. Both Sarutobi and Yondaime eliminated the present threat, but failed to stop it's long term effects. Neither killed their opponents. Both died.
Cept, no. 😐
Unless Madara figured out a way to pull the other half of the Kyuubi out of the Shinigami, there's really no getting back half of the Kyuubi's power. Naruto will eventually die and unless the Kyuubi's power is transferred to another jinchuriki, that Kyuubi will die with him forever. Sounds like a nice defeat, to me.
Yondaime not only defeated the present threat, he subjugated it. Oro remained alive and became just as much of a threat, after switching bodies just a little time later whereas Sarutobi lost his life and was sent to "hell" in the process...which was Sarutobi's goal FOR Oro. I'd say Oro won that fight fairly severely and Sarutobi only temporarily disarmed Oro. (lol, I'm sooooo funny. 😐 )
There's a reason they say Sarutobi's only defeat was against Oro.
Originally posted by EvilAngel
I'm sure the guy who chose to suffer in agony for all of eternity for Konoha would also retire even if it meant replacing himself with someone less fitting for the job. *cough*
Like I said earlier, Minato would have been better in some areas, but it doesn't necessarily have to be strength. It could or could not have been. Hokage isn't just about who is the strongest to protect the village (anyone with substantial strength could protect the village); they have to negotiate and keep peace, organize missions, oversee civilian matters, etc.
Do you honestly think that none of these matters played no part in Sarutobi's decision to step down?
Sarutobi would have been less fitting, sure, because he was aging. Tsunade was in a coma and was not fit to be Hokage. Does that however, automatically mean that Danzo was stronger than her?
I don't even know why we're debating this >__>. I've already agreed that the old Sarutobi was below Minato.
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Close proximity could be anything from a few feet to several meters, which is allot when it comes to battle. Sufficient reflexes? the guy can teleport with a kunai at your throat. Even if you by mircale counter it, he could just do it while you're in mid counters and lop your head off then.
We've only seen it to be a few feet. It's a reverse summon of sorts. Why a summon in normal circumstances, would be several metres away from the seal is beyond me.
What if someone like Madara is below the ground? How would Minato use FTG in that situation? What if someone like Sarutobi uses Taju/Kage bunshin no jutsu? Minato has no way of knowing which is the real one. Does he somehow use FTG on all of them? What if Raikage moves out of the way? He's fast enough, and he wouldn't be surprised by Minato's appearance like that ninja was.
Originally posted by EvilAngel
What do you want? prep? That's one of the reasons it's so powerful. No one has seen or fought against anything like it. You don't survive that kind of ability.
We haven't seen much of it in use, hence Kishi hasn't revealed a weakness. I mean, I may be grasping at straws, but Kishi isn't the type of writer to make up very powerful moves that can be effective in any and every situation, and have no drawbacks whatsoever.
Susano'o is very taxing, Chibaku Tensei can be escaped with sufficient force, Kirin can be blocked by a powerful defence, Tsukiyomi can be broken out of, Shinra Tensei has a lag, Mizukage's acid can be dodged, Gaara's defence can be broken etc.
Also, Sarutobi would know about the jutsu.
Originally posted by EvilAngel
You don't know that is why they call him the greatest.
Neither do you 😬. My perspective is that he was the village's greatest hero and thus praised as the greatest hokage.
Also, could you tell me the chapter where the teach about Minato? For the life of me, I cannot remember that part.
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Impressive title. So what? He was killed by a Shinobi so his title was perhaps less deserving that it seems don't you think? I mean, you don't hear of how the god of lightning got killed by electrocution do you?
I was trying to make a point 😐. I too think that that title may have been a little far-fetched. "Strongest Shinobi" would have been more fitting.
According to you, none of the geniuses that came before or after Minato were of his calibre as those exact words (once in a decade genius) were never used for them. So how could Minato be above a prime Sarutobi who was called a 'god of shinobi' when Minato was never praised as such or even something better?
Originally posted by Kento
And yet he still can't manage a one-handed Rasengan. Kinda funny. But Naruto's whole character is suppose to be hard work trumps genius which is why he's always training non-stop it's not like it just comes naturally. Course it helps when Naruto is almost the main character, and has a demon to pull chakra from when he trains in most things...Well if Neji wasn't a Hyuuga it would make a difference. lol
He probably could. Forming it with two hands or with clones is just how he is used to forming it 😬.
Sasuke uses only his left hand for his chidori, and yet he could use his right.
So as he is a Hyuuga, more screen-time would not make a difference like I said 😛?
Originally posted by dadudemon
This, I agree with. Only the Sage can be called that with any degree of accuracy. I believe he was called that because he never lost a battle/fight before. Neither did Yondaime. On top of that, Yondaime went to the grave, undefeated....so he has one up on Sarutobi.
He was called that as he was incredibly strong during his youth...but by EA's logic and need for specific words, Minato couldn't possibly be as good as Sarutobi as those exact words (god of shinobi) weren't used for him.
I mean, someone like Sakumo Hatake (can't believe I forgot about him) or Hiruzen or perhaps Orochimaru not a genius on the level of Minato just because the words 'once in a decade genius' were not used? Had Sakumo not committed suicide, he most likely would have become Hokage.
Sarutobi remained undefeated for a much longer time, so he has one up on Minato in that regard.
Also, I don't think it was mentioned that Minato was undefeated. Meh, I don't remember.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Like I said earlier, Minato would have been better in some areas, but it doesn't necessarily have to be strength. It could or could not have been. Hokage isn't just about who is the strongest to protect the village (anyone with substantial strength could protect the village); they have to negotiate and keep peace, organize missions, oversee civilian matters, etc.
Do you honestly think that none of these matters played no part in Sarutobi's decision to step down?Sarutobi would have been less fitting, sure, because he was aging. Tsunade was in a coma and was not fit to be Hokage. Does that however, automatically mean that Danzo was stronger than her?
I don't even know why we're debating this >__>. I've already agreed that the old Sarutobi was below Minato.
We've only seen it to be a few feet. It's a reverse summon of sorts. Why a summon in normal circumstances, would be several metres away from the seal is beyond me.
What if someone like Madara is below the ground? How would Minato use FTG in that situation? What if someone like Sarutobi uses Taju/Kage bunshin no jutsu? Minato has no way of knowing which is the real one. Does he somehow use FTG on all of them? What if Raikage moves out of the way? He's fast enough, and he wouldn't be surprised by Minato's appearance like that ninja was.
We haven't seen much of it in use, hence Kishi hasn't revealed a weakness. I mean, I may be grasping at straws, but Kishi isn't the type of writer to make up very powerful moves that can be effective in any and every situation, and have no drawbacks whatsoever.
Susano'o is very taxing, Chibaku Tensei can be escaped with sufficient force, Kirin can be blocked by a powerful defence, Tsukiyomi can be broken out of, Shinra Tensei has a lag, Mizukage's acid can be dodged, Gaara's defence can be broken etc.Also, Sarutobi would know about the jutsu.
Neither do you 😬. My perspective is that he was the village's greatest hero and thus praised as the greatest hokage.
Also, could you tell me the chapter where the teach about Minato? For the life of me, I cannot remember that part.
I was trying to make a point 😐. I too think that that title may have been a little far-fetched. "Strongest Shinobi" would have been more fitting.
According to you, none of the geniuses that came before or after Minato were of his calibre as those exact words (once in a decade genius) were never used for them. So how could Minato be above a prime Sarutobi who was called a 'god of shinobi' when Minato was never praised as such or even something better?
It is also about diplomacy true. However it is stated in the manga and anime that to be the Hokage means you are the strongest in the village. Look at the Raikage, he's hardly diplomatic, and he sacrificed an arm to attack when in a rage. Hardly a brilliant mind, but he's damn strong, so he's the Raikage.
I think all the hints throughout the series and references to the legendary Fourth hokage are there to tell us he is the strongest Ninja in the known history of Naruto.
Because Sarutobi wasn't Old when he stepped down. He wasn't young, but he wasn't an Old man.
Fair enough, we haven't seen him move anywhere that isn't right next to someone, but so what? It's still an absurdly powerful Technique
Well, since his movement through that jutsu is instant, he could only use that jutsu to avoid getting caught. I'm sure the jutsu he used to wipe out 50 men instantly in the chapter we saw would have no trouble with clones. Infact that is the worst thing you could do against the fourth since it divides your chakra among each clone. For some reason i do not believe the Raikage can dodge instant speed. You can't dodge what you don't see coming, fact.
We haven't seen a drawback, that's exactly why i rate it so highly. There is no known drawback to it, it's silent, invisible, instant, it doesn't even use chakra. It's utterly broken.
I never said i did. I just said there's no point you jumping up and down insisting it's because he stopped the fox. So did the first, yet it's the fourth whose praised as the Greatest Hokage. The only logical reason would be he's the strongest.
My Internets playing up tonight so i can't look it up, sorry =s
Ugh, he was, Sarutobi was a Hokage, correct?
The fourth is called the Greatest Hokage!
By your own logic(of better titles anyway) Namikaze > Sarutobi
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He was called that as he was incredibly strong during his youth...but by EA's logic and need for specific words, Minato couldn't possibly be as good as Sarutobi as those exact words (god of shinobi) weren't used for him.I mean, someone like Sakumo Hatake (can't believe I forgot about him) or Hiruzen or perhaps Orochimaru not a genius on the level of Minato just because the words 'once in a decade genius' were not used? Had Sakumo not committed suicide, he most likely would have become Hokage.
Sarutobi remained undefeated for a much longer time, so he has one up on Minato in that regard.
Also, I don't think it was mentioned that Minato was undefeated. Meh, I don't remember.
Wrong see above. Titles don't mean anything. But when one person among four is constantly emphasised to be the strongest, it makes sense he is. Since he has such a broken jutsu it then isn't ridicilous to see no one has yet to appear who has shown potential to counter said ability.
When a legendary sannin, someone on the same level as Oroachimaru who killed the third, talks about someone like Jiraiya does for the fourth it means allot. He isn't a braggart who would go on and on because it was his student. Even Tsunade seems to have enourmous respect for the fourth.
Even the little bits we know about the Fourth paint the picture he was just something else.
- Defeated armies alone.
- Created a jutsu using only and taking Shape manipulation to the Ultimate level
- Sage like advice
- Fourth Hokage at a young age, succeeding the Third before his death, the man who studied under 2 Hokages.
- Respected deeply by everyone who knew him
- Created a space/time jutsu
etc
etc
Originally posted by Demonic PhoenixI think it's more with Naruto still isn't very good at chakra control because he has no need to be when he's got so much to spare, Jiraiya never bothered to teach him control when we seen him train because he didn't see the point, so I doubt he would have done it in those three years.
He probably could. Forming it with two hands or with clones is just how he is used to forming it 😬.
Sasuke uses only his left hand for his chidori, and yet he could use his right.So as he is a Hyuuga, more screen-time would not make a difference like I said 😛?
He was called that as he was incredibly strong during his youth...but by EA's logic and need for specific words, Minato couldn't possibly be as good as Sarutobi as those exact words (god of shinobi) weren't used for him.
Had Sakumo not committed suicide, he most likely would have become Hokage.
😠 Well I want to see Neji combine his Hyuuga fighting style and his two elements he has mastered then we'll see his real power to beat Sasuke. Ao will break the Byakugan getting downplayed, and then Neji shall make his move and break the Hyuuga's being downplayed. 😛
Ah but Sarutobi was never said to have a flee on sight order from whole armies. Not that they listened apparently or Minato wouldn't have had the few remaining Konoha ninja left throw Kunai so he could just kill them all at once but still.
Sakumo was considered as strong as the Sannin, while Minato was younger, and stronger than the Sannin so I don't know. It's possible though.
Originally posted by EvilAngel1. Then why bring up Pain losing to Naruto? FTG is an advantage, yes, as is Pain's Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei, his six bodies, powerful summons, etc. Note I am not saying Pain is definately superior, but based on what we have seen, he is, there is not enough known about Minato to say either way.
Well hence why IMO naruto beating pain was PIS. Pain isn't stronger for a number of reasons, FTG is just a damn good one.I bet using wood element to wrestle with the god demon of fire is a great strategy. But unfortunately you're misinterpreting that image.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/16/It seems wood element on contact has power over the 9 tails. Yamato tried to wrestle the 4 tails. Okay, Yamato is a hella lot weaker the the first, granted, but 4 tails is allot weaker than 9, AND yamato has gripped allot more of the body than the first and look what happens
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/14/
Doesn't work. You cannot physically restrain something like that. So the notion the first did is idiotic and i will question the intelligence of anyone who thinks that's true. It's retarded.
It's black, it has such suction it was ripping the earth out of the ground itself. It's a black hole. Saying it isn't is just being terminologically petty. If it makes you feel more comfortable you can call it a localized gravitational collapse jutsu. But I'm calling it a black hole, live with it 😬
I just checked, he says "Only you can surpass the fourth Hokage" there's no tense to that. It's a declaritive statement. You are picking at straws if that's the arguement you're putting up.
I knew what your 'proof' would be, hence why i told you it was an idoitic notion. You've known me for how long? You still think i'd make that kind of a claim without knowing what you're on about?
2. Considering it was working, yes, it is.
Lol, are you serious? You insult my intelligence and then claim I am misinterpreting a scan and post this garbage?
The first scan, lol, he's not even draining him, he destroyed the clone. And even assuming it was draining him, it was clearly not a normal Wood Release jutsu, compared to the plain Jane roots that were ensnaring the Kyuubi. As for the second scan, uh-huh, it was not the Wood Release that was draining him hun, Yamato had to physically touch him, and that little chord of chakra coming from Naruto's hand was touching him. Not the Wood Release.
You have no idea how little I could give a shit about what Yamato cannot do. The difference between the Shodaime and Yamato is not even worth noting, and Yamato being unable to do so with those puny wooden blocks does not remove the Shodaime's feat of ensnaring the Kyuubi, which happened, on-panel, you can't refute it, please stop. Question the intellect of what I..."Think"...Is true? Oh no, my dear, you misunderstand me. I am not saying this is what I "think," I am saying this is what happened ON-PANEL. Trying to downplay the feat just to hype the Fourth above the First is not gonna work, you question my intelligence for claiming something that happened? Lol.
You stated it like it being a black hole was supposed to actually mean something, that is why I argued against it. Not that it matters, it does not take away the Shodaime's feat. 😬 Oh, and Naruto was not very deep within the earth surrounding Chibaku Tensei, if I recall right.
Okay, I was wrong, but there is a tense. It is future tense. 😐 "Only you can surpass the Fourth Hokage" is a declarative statement, true, and it is one that speaks of the future...Which obviously does not count those not living (Or thought to be dead), also Kakashi is in fact a fallible character, although that statement is more credible than most people's would be I admit.
Only I'm right and you're wrong. 😛
Oh, and to emphasize Madara's power.
The Tsuchikage, who did not know Madara was weakened, asked why he was going through such lengths for his plans, noting that a man of his power should be able to accomplish his plans without a hitch, which implies at his full strength he would be able to easily execute his plans.
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Then why bring up Pain losing to Naruto? FTG is an advantage, yes, as is Pain's Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei, his six bodies, powerful summons, etc. Note I am not saying Pain is definately superior, but based on what we have seen, he is, there is not enough known about Minato to say either way.2. Considering it was working, yes, it is.
Lol, are you serious? You insult my intelligence and then claim I am misinterpreting a scan and post this garbage?
The first scan, lol, he's not even draining him, he destroyed the clone. And even assuming it was draining him, it was clearly not a normal Wood Release jutsu, compared to the plain Jane roots that were ensnaring the Kyuubi. As for the second scan, uh-huh, it was not the Wood Release that was draining him hun, Yamato had to physically touch him, and that little chord of chakra coming from Naruto's hand was touching him. Not the Wood Release.
You have no idea how little I could give a shit about what Yamato cannot do. The difference between the Shodaime and Yamato is not even worth noting, and Yamato being unable to do so with those puny wooden blocks does not remove the Shodaime's feat of ensnaring the Kyuubi, which happened, on-panel, you can't refute it, please stop. Question the intellect of what I..."Think"...Is true? Oh no, my dear, you misunderstand me. I am not saying this is what I "think," I am saying this is what happened ON-PANEL. Trying to downplay the feat just to hype the Fourth above the First is not gonna work, you question my intelligence for claiming something that happened? Lol.
You stated it like it being a black hole was supposed to actually mean something, that is why I argued against it. Not that it matters, it does not take away the Shodaime's feat. 😬 Oh, and Naruto was not very deep within the earth surrounding Chibaku Tensei, if I recall right.
Okay, I was wrong, but there is a tense. It is future tense. 😐 "Only you can surpass the Fourth Hokage" is a declarative statement, true, and it is one that speaks of the future...Which obviously does not count those not living (Or thought to be dead), also Kakashi is in fact a fallible character, although that statement is more credible than most people's would be I admit.
Only I'm right and you're wrong. 😛
2. I think you need to calm down. Respond to me like this again, i won't respond to you.
First scan if you read the SFX says Kyuubi's chakra dissipates. Whether or not the clone was destroyed, we were told specifically the only reason Yamato was chosen to temp for Kakashi was because only he has the ability to surpress the Kyuubi's chakra.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/297/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/297/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/16/
In my third scan i posted Naruto in 4 tails breaking out of Yamato's wood hold. Backing my reasoning that using wood element to physically restrain the Kyuubi doesn't seem like a feasable option. Instead i shown scans and statements that point towards there being a level of control that wood element seems to have over the Bijuu's. All of this is perfectly reasonable.
The scan you provided does not clearly shown anything. All we see is a battle with Madara, Shodaime, and Kyuubi. Yes Kyuubi's left rear leg has wood around it, but there's no way of knowing if that is phyiscally restraining him or not. From other feats that we have seen it seems (atleast from my point of veiw) unlikely that a tree would be any problem to the Kyuubi. Since so far we have seen it pull itself out of a Jutsu that torn the earth from the world, drove it's hands deep in the ground to attack from underneath, and at two tails demolish an entire area of a forest from a single punch.
Originally posted by EvilAngel...Excuse me? You directly insult me and my intelligence and when I get angry you tell me to calm down? How's about this, don't insult me over a debate about Naruto, kay? I will admit however that I still snapped at you, and I apologise for it.
2. I think you need to calm down. Respond to me like this again, i won't respond to you.First scan if you read the SFX says Kyuubi's chakra dissipates. Whether or not the clone was destroyed, we were told specifically the only reason Yamato was chosen to temp for Kakashi was because only he has the ability to surpress the Kyuubi's chakra.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/297/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/297/09/http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/16/In my third scan i posted Naruto in 4 tails breaking out of Yamato's wood hold. Backing my reasoning that using wood element to physically restrain the Kyuubi doesn't seem like a feasable option. Instead i shown scans and statements that point towards there being a level of control that wood element seems to have over the Bijuu's. All of this is perfectly reasonable.
The scan you provided does not clearly shown anything. All we see is a battle with Madara, Shodaime, and Kyuubi. Yes Kyuubi's left rear leg has wood around it, but there's no way of knowing if that is phyiscally restraining him or not. From other feats that we have seen it seems (atleast from my point of veiw) unlikely that a tree would be any problem to the Kyuubi. Since so far we have seen it pull itself out of a Jutsu that torn the earth from the world, drove it's hands deep in the ground to attack from underneath, and at two tails demolish an entire area of a forest from a single punch.
I know, because of the seal on Yamato's hand that was able to drain the chakra of the Kyuubi, I am not completel sure what your scans are intending to disprove. I am well aware of why Yamato was assigned Kakashi's temp. Also, whether the jutsu he used when Naruto's clone went Kyuubi drained him or not, it was clearly not a normal Wood Release like the roots ensnaring Kyuubi.
Just because Yamato could not do it does not mean the Shodaime cannot, that would be like saying because Killer Bee took a punch from Sasuke he can take a punch from Hulk. Your scans did not outright state that Wood Release has a level of control over the Biju, as a matter of fact, the technique used to subdue the Kyuubi has a name, "Hokage-style Sixty-year-old Technique - Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-bringing Hands" (Why the name is so long is anyone's guess), that was what subdued Kyuubi, Wood Release has never been stated to have a degree of control over Biju, in fact, in the very scans you posted Yamato attributes it to Naruto's pendant.
Rear right leg has one tendril around it, the front right has two wrapping, and another is beginning to wrap around its torso, and Kyuubi is clearly struggling. Also, you are thinking of Wood Release jutsus as mere "trees," that is not true, in the same way Haku's jutsus were not merely ice, or Kimimaro's jutsus not merely bones, they are infused with chakra, granting them strength beyond a mere tree.
Minato has shown absolutely nothing to indicate he can defeat pain. Hearsay doesnt cut it at all. Its even highly debatable as to whether he is the strongest hokage. Further considering Kakashis limited scope of knowledge and experiences, him saying only naruto can surpass minato holds little weight.