Star Wars vs Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Battlestar Galactica

Originally posted by jaden101
You haven't. I've shown that ships in ST use power in orders of magnitude thousands of times higher than SW...Terra is an order of magnitude of 1000 higher than giga.

Except that canon SW and ST figures show otherwise.

Not from anything SW can throw at it.

Hm? Defending fleets could intercept and destroy whatever Borg ships that are deploying it.

Watch Voyager "Year of Hell". Chroniton torpedoes exist in temporal flux and as such they can pass through shields and matter until inside it's designated target.

Also the ship itself is as below (from memory alpha)

The main ships weapon could be deployed against the homeworld of a species and it wouldn't just wipe out the species on that world but would erase the species from history. This means that every member of the species would vanish and everything that any member of that species had done throughout history would never have happened.

Deploy that weapon on a few key SW planets and the Jedi could potentially never have existed...

Good point, although still somewhat sketchy. Is there any definite proof that such a weapon could pass through shields?

We've seen it on screen at different levels. Star Fleet officers have fired on a killed Borg drones...The next drone that appears can be fired on by the same phaser and it's shielding has completely adapted and leaves the drone untouched.

We've seen the cubes do the same. The enterprise fired on the cube's tractor beam to break free with phasers and photon torpedos. It broke free and caused the cube large amounts of damage in doing so. The next encounter shortly after the Cube was completely immune to both phasers and photon torpedos. And the proof that it's not merely magnitude of power of weapons is that after this 1 encounter with the federation the next cube to attack the federation was adapted to the extent that it was able to destroy the entire fleet without a scratch.

Infact the only species to have matched the Borg were species 8472. And you really don't want me to bring them into the fight against Star Wars because they would just ***** stomp SW to death. They are from and have the run of an entire other universe. A few small single pilot bioships were able to combine to destroy a planet in a few seconds. This is the equivalent of a dew Jedi starfighters doing the same...Which we know they can't do.

So it's for you to prove it's limits rather than just stating it has them. Not for me to prove otherwise.

This still isn't proof. You have to prove your claim that the Borg can adapt to Star Wars technology.

I'm sure it does. But the Borg is one species (although technically they are made up of lots of conquered members of different species) that cover only a small % of the ST galaxy.

The Galactic Republic alone had about one million planets, and the population on most worlds were very high. The Galactic Federation of Free Alliances had about 100 quadrillion citizens.

Clearly not familiar with any ST novels are you?

ST novels aren't canon, although SW novels are.

Besides...Why bother with ground wars when a few small ships can appear right next to a planet by coming through vortex's from another universe and completely obliterate the planet is seconds.

Planetary shields FTW

Then I can also draw on the latest film for technology. Red matter...A tiny little blob of which caused a black hole strong enough to swallow the planet of Vulcan.

AAAAANNNNDD IT'S GOODNIGHT STAR WARS.

Alternate universe, and it took quite a while for the red matter to be prepared.

Originally posted by Robtard
Pretty sure you've brought this up before and it clearly shows you haven't got a logical or sensible response. Star Wars technology isn't anywhere near to being nigh-omnipotent or omnipotent. So really, if you have to scrape that far into the barrel, just don't.

It can be shown that the Borg can counter and assimilate vast amounts and very different technologies, eg their ability to regenerate and heal their ships isn't something native to the original Borg species, it is something they took from a species they conquered and assimilated into their own.

So, if you're going to say that Star Wars tech is Borg-proof, YOU prove it with something plausible. Go, do it now; I'll listen.

As I have shown, an Aclamator star destroyer is several orders of magnitude more powerful than, say, the Enterprise. Potentially billions of times more powerful.

If we're going to make it a bloodlusted hypothetical war, Star Wars has superior superweapons. The Borg's adaption abilities will be too late if their planets get blown up.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
As I have shown, an Aclamator star destroyer is several orders of magnitude more powerful than, say, the Enterprise. Potentially billions of times more powerful.

If we're going to make it a bloodlusted hypothetical war, Star Wars has superior superweapons. The Borg's adaption abilities will be too late if their planets get blown up.

No, you haven't. You've given one example and the Enterprise D is hardly the pinnacle of might/power in the Star Trek universe.

See, you've shown again that you know nothing of Star Trek; you should, if you're going to debate in a non-biased and informed manner. So far, all you have on your side is rampant Star Wars fanboyism.

Destroying a Borg cube doesn't have to do with [just] massive amounts of power, it's getting past their adaptive defenses, as (repeat) after one(maybe 2-3) Borg Cube is obliterated by this "super Star Wars weapon's shot", the entire Borg collective will adapt to the energy frequencies and effectively build a counter, so we're talking a matter of minutes at the most. I don't think you'd argue that Star Wars could destroy the all the Borg in a matter of minutes.

Then there's the fact that the Borg would take over and adapt to any Star Wars tech of use, thereby increasing their strength to these "super levels" you seem to think Star Wars tech runs at.

Face it, Stars Wars does not show the levels of on-the-fly thinking that is common in just about every bit of Star Trek, from the shows, movies and books. Star Trek deals with time-travel, different dimensions, dealing with omnipotent beings etc. This doesn't mean Star Trek is a better franchise or that Star Wars sucks, though.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, you haven't. You've given one example and the Enterprise D is hardly the pinnacle of might/power in the Star Trek universe.

See, you've shown again that you know nothing of Star Trek; you should, if you're going to debate in a non-biased and informed manner. So far, all you have on your side is rampant Star Wars fanboyism.

Destroying a Borg cube doesn't have to do with [just] massive amounts of power, it's getting past their adaptive defenses, as (repeat) after one(maybe 2-3) Borg Cube is obliterated by this "super Star Wars weapon's shot", the entire Borg collective will adapt to the energy frequencies and effectively build a counter, so we're talking a matter of minutes at the most. I don't think you'd argue that Star Wars could destroy the all the Borg in a matter of minutes.

Then there's the fact that the Borg would take over and adapt to any Star Wars tech of use, thereby increasing their strength to these "super levels" you seem to think Star Wars tech runs at.

Face it, Stars Wars does not show the levels of on-the-fly thinking that is common in just about every bit of Star Trek, from the shows, movies and books. Star Trek deals with time-travel, different dimensions, dealing with omnipotent beings etc.

You still can't prove this. If a star destroyer attacks a borg cube and completely destroys it, how are the Borg going to adapt to that?

Oh, and forgive me if this is a stupid question, but how do the main characters in ST possibly fight the Borg if the Borg adapt to phasers and any other weapons the Federation uses?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
And what I'm saying is that this adaption ability has not been proven to be absolute. If Galactus were to attack the Borg would the Borg somehow adapt to him? If God were to attack the Borg would the Borg somehow adapt?

Might want to use something valid like...uuuhhh...SOMETHING FROM STAR WARS to counter the Borg.

Extremely odd that the thread starter...Who just happens to be you...stated no omnipotent or near omnipotent beings but seeing as you're now bringing them in to being valid then Star Trek has the Q and the Douwd...The Nagilum...Then there's Armus...A creature actually made from negative emotion and that feeds on energy weapons and grows more powerful when fired on and who is also immortal...

Star Wars has...Nothing.

Your move.

Originally posted by jaden101
Might want to use something valid like...uuuhhh...SOMETHING FROM STAR WARS to counter the Borg.

Extremely odd that the thread starter...Who just happens to be you...stated no omnipotent or near omnipotent beings but seeing as you're now bringing them in to being valid then Star Trek has the Q and the Douwd...The Nagilum...Then there's Armus...A creature actually made from negative emotion and that feeds on energy weapons and grows more powerful when fired on and who is also immortal...

Star Wars has...Nothing.

Your move.

This isn't my point, as it obviously isn't since neither Galactus or God are in Star Wars canon. My point is that some Star Trek fans think that the Borg would simply adapt to everything as if adapting is absolute or something.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You still can't prove this. If a star destroyer attacks a borg cube and completely destroys it, how are the Borg going to adapt to that?

Oh, and forgive me if this is a stupid question, but how do the main characters in ST possibly fight the Borg if the Borg adapt to phasers and any other weapons the Federation uses?

Because all the Borg cubes are connected via the hive mind...When one ship is destroyed all the other ships analyse how it was destroyed and adapt.

The only way that The Federation were able to fight the Borg for short periods of time were to set up their phasers so that the frequency changed after every shot but even this only worked for a while because the Borg simply adapted their shields to work across a range of frequencies.

The last weapon used that was effective against the Borg were transphasic torpedoes. Described in memory alpha as

It is based on generating a destructive subspace compression pulse. Upon detonation the torpedo delivers the pulse in an asymmetric superposition of multiple phase states. Shields can only block one subcomponent of the pulse. The other subcomponents deliver the majority of the pulse to the target. Every torpedo has a different transphasic configuration, generated randomly by a dissonant feedback effect to prevent the Borg from predicting the configuration of the phase states.

These were used in the last episode of Voyager. The federation refrained from using them for as long as possible as an "ace in the hole" as it was the only weapon they had that the Borg hadn't encountered and so hadn't adapted to. They knew that once they did encounter it that they would adapt. Only reason they weren't seen to adapt is because there's been no more episodes of Star Trek continuing on from that time line.

Originally posted by jaden101
Because all the Borg cubes are connected via the hive mind...When one ship is destroyed all the other ships analyse how it was destroyed and adapt.

The only way that The Federation were able to fight the Borg for short periods of time were to set up their phasers so that the frequency changed after every shot but even this only worked for a while because the Borg simply adapted their shields to work across a range of frequencies.

The last weapon used that was effective against the Borg were transphasic torpedoes. Described in memory alpha as

But by your logic the Borg would adapt to that as well. I don't understand how the Federation fought off a species that could apparently make itself immune to every weapon the Federation had.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You still can't prove this. If a star destroyer attacks a borg cube and completely destroys it, how are the Borg going to adapt to that?

Oh, and forgive me if this is a stupid question, but how do the main characters in ST possibly fight the Borg if the Borg adapt to phasers and any other weapons the Federation uses?

Because it's what the Borg do, this has been shown ^.

They generally have to out-wit them and or study them to find an exploit. This is something that is not generally shown in Star Wars. Most of it is plot-stupidity driven though, as the Borg on paper could conquer the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans, Cardassian etc., just be a matter of time.

e.g. First encounter with the Borg, the Enterprise would have been taken over, except Q jumped in and saved them. Thereby giving the Federation a few years to study what they gathered from that encounter and build by defenses/attacks against the Borg. Though one Borg Cube still showed to be capable of taking on a small fleet.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
This isn't my point, as it obviously isn't since neither Galactus or God are in Star Wars canon. My point is that some Star Trek fans think that the Borg would simply adapt to everything as if adapting is absolute or something.

If that was directed at me, I've clearly never said that, but I've given examples showing that adaptation and assimilation are what the Borg do; what makes them a massive threat.

But like I said, if you think Star Wars tech to be Borg-proof, please show it. Go; I'm listening.

Originally posted by Robtard
Because it's what the Borg do, this has been shown.

They generally have to out-wit them and or study them to find an exploit. This is something that is not generally shown in Star Wars. Most of it is plot-stupidity driven though, as the Borg on paper could conquer the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans, Cardassian etc., just be a matter of time.

e.g. First encounter with the Borg, the Enterprise would have been taken over, except Q jumped in and saved them. Thereby giving the Federation a few years to study what they gathered from that encounter and build by defenses/attacks against the Borg. Though one Borg Cube still showed to be capable of taking on a small fleet.

Yet by your logic, those new attacks they developed against the Borg would be useless in a few minutes.

Originally posted by Robtard
If that was directed at me, I've clearly never said that, but I've given examples showing that adaptation and assimilation are what the Borg do; what makes them a massive threat.

But like I said, if you think Star Wars tech to be Borg-proof, please show it. Go; I'm listening.

The Star Forge could help create an army of Sun Crushers, which could destroy the Borg planets.

And what about the Force? I doubt that the Borg could even understand that.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Yet by your logic, those new attacks they developed against the Borg would be useless in a few minutes.

Lol, no. Sometime they were, sometimes not. As I said, plot-driven stupidity factors a lot when the Borg are in play.

I assume plot-driven stupidity isn't in play here, right?

I'm waiting for you to show how the Empire or other SW is going to counter the Borg's adaptive abilities. Go.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
This isn't my point, as it obviously isn't since neither Galactus or God are in Star Wars canon. My point is that some Star Trek fans think that the Borg would simply adapt to everything as if adapting is absolute or something.

Your logic is that because the Borg aren't seen adapting to a God like being that they can't adapt to anything and so they can't adapt to Star Wars technology. Despite the fact that nothing even coming close to God like power is shown by anything in Star Wars.

We can only go on what we see in canon and that is that the Borg only failed to adapt to one species...8472...Because their sensors weren't able to analyse the Biological based technology and so couldn't adapt.

Originally posted by Robtard
Lol, no. Sometime they were, sometimes not. As I said, plot-driven stupidity factors a lot when the Borg are in play.

I assume plot-driven stupidity isn't in play here, right?

I'm waiting for you to show how the Empire or other SW is going to counter the Borg's adaptive abilities. Go.

The Federation did, as you yourself admitted. "Sometimes they were, sometimes not" is not necessarily PIS in this case. It could mean that the Borg do indeed have limits to their adaptive capability.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The Star Forge could help create an army of Sun Crushers, which could destroy the Borg planets.

And what about the Force? I doubt that the Borg could even understand that.

The Borg have assimilated thousands and thousands of systems, which would equate to thousands and thousands of worlds. So unless you assume there's going to be thousands of Sun Crushers and they all somehow just know the location of all the Borg and that the Borg are just going to sit by doing nothing, no, just no.

Even then, the Borg have millions of ships in space, filled with billions of drones, this is their might.

What happens when one of those Sun Crushers gets assimilated into the Borg collective and it's technology is taken? Exactly. What happens if the Borg where to deduce (through assimilation) the location of the Star Forge? Exactly.

That a good question; a better question, what is a Force user on a ship going to do to a Borg cube? Another question, if a Force user is assimilated, then the Borg could potentially have access to the Force, as the Force is (biologically) medichlorian driven, but this is pure speculation.

Edit: Since you're unaware, when the Borg assimilate someone, all their knowledge is taken and put to use by the collective. eg When Picard was assimilated, it trumped the Enterprize D's next attack.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The Federation did, as you yourself admitted. "Sometimes they were, sometimes not" is not necessarily PIS in this case. It could mean that the Borg do indeed have limits to their adaptive capability.

As it's been pointed out to you several times now, there's only been one instance when the Borg couldn't; that was Species 8472, a species from a different dimension who's biology was far advanced when compared to being in 'this' dimension. Key words, 'different dimension.'

Edit: I see Jaden covered this yet again.

Originally posted by Robtard
The Borg have assimilated thousands and thousands of systems, which would equate to thousands and thousands of worlds. So unless you assume there's going to be thousands of Sun Crushers and they all somehow just know the location of all the Borg and that the Borg are just going to sit by doing nothing, no, just no.

What are the Borg going to do? The Sun Crusher can fire more than once.

Even then, the Borg have millions of ships in space, filled with billions of drones, this is their might.

These ships will eventually run out of fuel and other supplies.

What happens when one of those Sun Crushers gets assimilated into the Borg collective and it's technology is taken? Exactly.

1. How does one get assimilated
2. How do the Borg obtain sufficient resources to mass produce them?

That a good question; a better question, what is a Force user on a ship going to do to a Borg cube? Another question, if a Force user is assimilated, then the Borg could potentially have access to the Force, as the Force is (biologically) medichlorian driven, but this is pure speculation.

Luke in LOTF fooled Caedus into seeing a fleet of ships. Imagine how helpful that could be if used on the Borg.

The Force is not necessarily scientifically explainable.

Originally posted by Robtard
As it's been pointed out to you several times now, there's only been one instance when the Borg couldn't; that was Species 8472, a species from a different dimension who's biology was far advanced when compared to being in 'this' dimension. Key words, 'different dimension.'

Edit: I see Jaden covered this yet again.

Then how was the Federation able to fight off the Borg?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What are the Borg going to do? The Sun Crusher can fire more than once.

These ships will eventually run out of fuel and other supplies.

1. How does one get assimilated
2. How do the Borg obtain sufficient resources to mass produce them?

Luke in LOTF fooled Caedus into seeing a fleet of ships. Imagine how helpful that could be if used on the Borg.

The Force is not necessarily scientifically explainable.

And the Borg can assimilate the Sun Crushers, thereby rendering the rest of them useless while simultaneous increasing the Borg power.

You know almost nothing of Star Trek, it's painfully obvious. Seriously, why debate when you know almsot nothing of oenm side?

The Borg drones run solely on energy/power for sustenance. The Borg Cube can run for countless years on their power supply. Then there's the fact they assimilate other tech; can use that.

1) Borg nanites, they're injected into people. Technology is taken via scanning and/or removing parts.
2) Produce what, Drones? They assimilate other species and they breed Drones through incubators.

The Borg aren't a single person, they use technology and scanning to "see". Luke would literally have to get into the mind of every Drone on a ship(s), if not the whole collective. You're scraping the barrel again.