Star Wars vs Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Battlestar Galactica

Started by Hewhoknowsall47 pages

Originally posted by -Pr-
i never was stupid enough to state that star wars couldn't scan lightyears.

it was their first volley. a mere drop in a pond compared to what they could bring to bear.

your numbers aren't canon because they're contradicted by one screen sources.

I've already covered this. I was using on screen sources (an ENGINEER stated it on screen) for the Star Trek figure, and the Star Wars figure comes from a canon source and is not contradicted by on screen sources.

So therefore, counter:

Star Wars: 200 trillion gigawatts (canon source)
Star Trek: 15 billion gigawatts (canon source)

SW was movies first before any other media.

Originally posted by The Nuul
SW was movies first before any other media.

Wow, thanks for stating that!

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I've already covered this. [b]I was using on screen sources (an ENGINEER stated it on screen) for the Star Trek figure, and the Star Wars figure comes from a canon source and is not contradicted by on screen sources.

So therefore, counter:

Star Wars: 200 trillion gigawatts (canon source)
Star Trek: 15 billion gigawatts (canon source) [/B]

what episode did the engineer state it in? what ship was he on?

and it's only canon as long as on-screen doesn't contradict it. your claim that the LAAT has more powerful weapons than a galaxy class starship is contradicted by on screen sources, even if you don't like it.

I don't that a lot of you understand the sheer era difference. Star Wars is thousands of years ahead of Star Trek technology wise and civilization wise.

The Yuuzhan Vong war had a death toll of almost 300 trillion
The Dominion War had a death toll of a few hundred million

Star destroyers have reactor cores with power ranges in the hundreds of trillions
Federation starships have reactor cores with power ranges in the billions

Star destroyer weapons have ranges in the thousands of kilometers
Federation sharship weapons have ranges in the tens of kilometers

Star Wars civilization has inhabited the entire Galaxy with 100 quadrillion civilians
Star Trek cvilization has inhabited a small portion of the Galaxy, trillions of civilians

Seriously; this is like comparing a Modern Day Earth Coalition vs an 18th Century Earth Coalition

Originally posted by -Pr-
what episode did the engineer state it in? what ship was he on?

and it's only canon as long as on-screen doesn't contradict it. your claim that the LAAT has more powerful weapons than a galaxy class starship is contradicted by on screen sources, even if you don't like it.

Janus101 claims to have watched the episode; he made the claim.

I suspect that you may jump on this and say "but you don't know that he's right!" yet even so, there's lots of other evidence, such as:

Star Wars shields can survive numerous shots from 2.4 million megaton force weapons
Star Trek shields get damaged by flying debris

The only two Star Trek species that might pose a threat to Star Wars are the Borg and Species 8472. The others would get conquered in under a week. We're talking about Star Wars, which is thousands of years ahead of Star Trek technology wise (although it technically happened "a long time ago in a Galaxy far far away"😉.

Hewhoknowsall, that's an official warning to you for blatant trolling. I've seen you post the same thing 5 times now, and it has done nothing except derail the topic at hand.

The other participants in this thread, and myself, are weary of this.

I've told you before to quit re-posting the same post 5+ times in the course of one page, since it is, in fact, trolling.

If you can't come up with a new argument, then you need to quit the debate at hand.

Originally posted by Impediment
Hewhoknowsall, that's an official warning to you for blatant trolling. I've seen you post the same thing 5 times now, and it has done nothing except derail the topic at hand.

The other participants in this thread, and myself, are weary of this.

I've told you before to quit re-posting the same post 5+ times in the course of one page, since it is, in fact, trolling.

If you can't come up with a new argument, then you need to quit the debate at hand.

Impediment, the reason why I keep on posting the same arguments is because the other side would literally ignore them or go around in circles (and would also post the same arguments themselves; I've seen "zomg the borg assimilate everything" far more than 5 times). I don't understand what else to do.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Since when were transporters new technology in that movie?

BTW:

Star Wars: 200 trillion gigawatt reactor core
Star Trek: 15 billion gigawatt reactor core

It has been a while since I have seen it, so I may be wrong on that part, but the fact remains that, with exception of Leanord Nimoy and the main bad guys, the entire movie is an alternate timeline. This means that any comparisons to draw from it will not stack with the continuity of the main Start Trek timeline.

Those numbers mean nothing to me because I was not questioning whatever those measurements are for. I am simply telling you that trying to use Star Trek (2009) as any sort of basis for the entirety of Star Trek in this debate is pointless.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Impediment, the reason why I keep on posting the same arguments is because the other side would literally ignore them or go around in circles (and would also post the same arguments themselves; I've seen "zomg the borg assimilate everything" far more than 5 times). I don't understand what else to do.

It's quite simple, really: Don't troll the thread. Period.

The other side did not do what you did, therefore they didn't troll.

You really need to calm down and have an enjoyable debate amongst fellow sci-fi aficionados before you get yourself into deeper water. You're taking the aspects of this thread way too seriously. Don't do it anymore.

The 300 million gigawatts figure was for the light turbolasers whereas the 2.4 million megatons figure was for the heavy turbolasers figure. Why did they use different units? IDK, but it's still canon, and you're still dodging the point.

Proof?...And not from stardestroyer.net...I want proper evidence because you were adamant the old figure was the heavy guns before.

Maybe, but they still could have attacked from much farther away. Also, starships from Star Trek tend to miss other large sharships, so it isn't accurate to say that they'd be able to hit smaller and faster Star Wars starfighters, especially since the former aren't prepared for that.

The Jem Hadar ships were as small and agile as starfighters. You also seem to have forgotten a major point regarding this thread (as had I until earlier today)...Battlestar Galactica/Cylons also have a large number of fighters.

I said a neutron star. Read the post.

Apologies...But it also makes your point even weaker because a black hole has far more destructive power than a neutron star.

I don't think you understand the technology difference. Star Wars vs Star Trek is like the USA vs Imperial Britain.

I don't understand the difference?...really?....REALLY REALLY?...You're the one who has completely forgotten and disregards the following

Iconian Gateway...
Dyson's sphere
multi kinetic neutronic mine
Dreadnought intelligent WMD
Krenim time ship
Perfect cloaking technology
Planetary cloaks
Magnetometric guided charges
Shield draining weapons
Ability to fire weapons at warp
transwarp
planet destroying single man ships
Chroniton torpedoes
Polaron Torpedoes
Quantum torpedoes
Transphasic torpedoes
Isokinetic cannon

Faulty logic. The sun crusher is a single starfighter sized ship, and it can destroy a star system. Using your own logic against you, Star Wars has the superior firepower.

A MKNM is smaller than a sun crusher and can destroy an areas hundreds of thousands of times as big.

2.4 million megatons vs 1160 megatons

Why are you still giving (faulty) figures...Especially for that of a photon torpedo as if it's representative of the power of the ST galaxy. I've clearly shown weapons that are massively more powerful than anything star wars has yet every time I do you answer with a wrong figure for a photon torpedo (a weapon which I haven't even discussed because I know it's not powerful compared with other ST weapons)

Actually, Star Wars has black hole creating weapons that they can launch from a distance.

I love it when you make a claim but don't even name the weapon or show any evidence for it.

I already covered this.

Yeah...Your faulty "the shields will stop it" argument and your even more ridiculous "it erased itself from existence so it doesn't count" argument...Both of which are total nonsense.

Exactly. You do realize that there are more sentient species in Star Wars than the borg have ever assimilated, right? It took the borg what; thousands of years to assimilate hundreds of thousands of species, and yet you're claiming that they can assimilate millions of species united and far more advanced that any they've ever encountered in a matter of years (or however long the war would last)?

How are tuscan raiders or jawas or ewoks or any of these huge number or generally useless species more advanced than, for example, Guinan's species. You realise it was hinted that Guinan could actually defend herself against Q yet the Borg all but destroyed her species.

The only argument you've got to keep you hundreds of quadrillions of citizens is that the Borg would deem most of them unworthy of assimilation?

By that logic, Star Wars uses nanotechnology to wtf pwn Star Trek cause nanotechnology sounds cool.

This is where you're supposed to give examples of SW nanotech has done that matches being able to assimilate biological and technological species/tech within a few minutes.

In fact, since the borg seem to have similar DNA due to their constant assimilating, Star Wars could use a nanovirus (which they have used) to kill all of the borg.

This is where you have to prove that the borg all have similar DNA...Odd you would claim that given that they're made up of hundreds of thousands of different species.

Those were targeted at infantry, not starships, and thus wouldn't be at full power.

Will you ever stop making bullshit excuses up on the spot?

No you haven't. Jedi in Stealth X's would be untraceable to sensors even when they fire their shadow bombs, because the bombs are activated by the Jedi using the Force. These shadow bombs can cripple 70 trillion gigawatt shields in a few attack runs, so logic would dictate that they could easily cripple shields that get crippled by a few 1160 megaton weapons.

They're proton torpedoes guided by the force...

And where are you getting this 70 trillion gigawatt shield info from?

What ship was it?

Proof please.

There are spaceports in almost every major Star Wars planet, even remote ones, and it is stated multiple times that there is a lot of traffic and lots of civilians docking. A ship in Star Wars actually isn't that expensive, costing about 50,000 credits. Luke, who despite being famous isn't really rich, apparently not having a salary, has a large and powerful ship, the Jade Shadow. Space traffic is shown often. Basically, it's about as common as we today own cars.

That's not proof...That's nonsensical conjecture...Figures...Not nonsense.

Exactly. A watt is derived from 1 joule per second. 200 trillion gigawatts vs 15 billion gigawatts. Both use gigawatts; one is not "total" (what do you mean by "total" gigawatts), both are joules per second.

No they're not joules per second...A watt is only equivalent to joules per second...You don't have to express watts in reference to time...If you say a generator gives out a certain amount of power in watts then that's the total wattage that generator can give out either in it's life time or until it's fuel runs out...Which is what the SW ship is stated in because it has no time unit attached. The ST figure IS given with a time indicator rather than it's total output. I showed the calculations on here quite a few pages ago.

I'm not sure about the Thrawn figure, but I'm pretty sure that by "on screen" you mean using some vague quote that Han Solo made when they were at the remains of Alderaan, right?

Well I am sure about the Thrawn figure because I own and have read the novels several times. And yes...I am referring to when Han (who's business relies on him knowing the strength and whereabouts of the empire's fleet) stated that there wasn't a weapon capable of destroying a planet and that it would take "1000 star destroyers with more firepower than is possible" (paraphrased)

The security in Coruscant was stated to be able to identify people in a planet of trillions by tracking how they walk.

An old ST ship can do that from orbit.

Jedi piloting Stealth X's can detonate the shadow bombs using the Force. It is specifically stated in several novels that this prevents sensors from tracking the Stealth X's when they fire. They were called the stealthiest things in the Galaxy.

Yet the wookipedia entry says they give their position away when firing weapons or sending out transmissions...

There are 100 quadrillion citizens in Star Wars. It is considered in Star Wars to be normal to have a ship. Even if only one in a million had a ship that would still be 100 billion ships, most more powerful than the Enterprise D.

So you make up these ships in your mind and then state that these made up ships are more powerful than the enterprise?...What kind of ****ed up logic is that?

Speculation.

haha...see above.

And Luke Skywalker is a person and was capable of resisting the pull of a supermassive black hole.

Context?

No, it would not, because solar systems are light years apart, and inhabited solar systems in Star Wars are even more light years apart.

Just because our solar system is light years from another star doesn't mean that all are...Look at Tatooine....It's a binary system.

You also realise your argument means that you're admitting there is less star systems and therefor less planets in SW than ST because both galaxies are approx 120,000 across.

Really? Because Centerpoint station and the other things you mentioned did indeed exist in Star Wars in universe history, yet the krenim timeship erased itself from history so that it never existed at all.

Was it seen on screen?...Yes...Therefor can it be used in this debate...Yes...So stop talking utter ****ing bollocks.

Except that none of these would affect an AT-AT.

Yeah...A weapon that can devastate a world through tectonic displacement can't damage an AT-AT that was brought down by a piece of cable...Ok.

Lets look at some of the other forms of SW ground weapons...The AT-ST...Blew to pieces when hit with a couple of logs.

Yet said transporters have limited range, are prone to malfunction, can transport a limited amount of people, can be disrupted and wouldn't do Star Trek that much good against the superior ground forces of Star Wars.

Limited range?...In the latest movies (set in the older time line) they transported on to a ship moving at warp speed (thus over millions of miles)

The Sikarians could transport a 1/3 of the way across the galaxy (40,000 light years)

I was talking about an LAAT vs the Enterprise. The former actually has more powerful weapons.

Could a LAAT destabilise a planet's techtonic plates with it's weapon?...No...The Enterprise D did.

Star Trek 2009 movie; the tranporters tranported a guy into that water tube.

Yeah...while the ship was travelling at warp speed and that was supposed to be the 1st time it had ever been done.

Using your logic against you, the Anakin Solo star destroyer (named after Anakin Solo) survived an attack by Centerpoint Station, which created a black hole to attack the GFFA fleet. A black hole is more powerful than a planet buster, AND the Anakin Solo came out unscathed.

So the oldest and weakest enterprise survives a black hole and an imperial II star destroyer survives a black hole....both come out unscathed.

Oh, and in this one battle, the Enterprise was harmed by debris crashing into it.

And a star destroyer's entire command bridge was vapourised by an asteroid.

Whether or not it was a Star Wars site or a Star Trek site does not change the fact that the numbers were derived from canon sources.

I proved beyond any doubt that the site uses either blatently wrong figures or vastly outdated figures.

Centerpoint station + Star Forge = army of Centerpoint Stations

You've tried to use this hypothetical scripting before yet when I did it you said I wasn't allowed?....Hypocrite much?

Week 1: The Federation consists of about 150 planets, and most of the other Star Trek factions have similar numbers. The Star Wars coalition could therefore send one star destroyer accompanied by enough transports to fit 1 million men and supporting vehicles and supplies for an occupation to each of these planets. Occupation would be easy as defending fleets would not be a match for 2.4 million megaton turbolasers firing from thousands of miles away.

150 Homeworlds...Thousands of colonies...

No...Most of the other factions don't have that little numbers...The Borg are stated on screen as having millions of worlds...The Dominion were said to occupy untold thousands of worlds.

The Romulan Star empire was similar....The Cardassian empire was similar.

Month 1: With the Federation, Romulans, Klingons and most other Star Trek civilizations neutralized, remaining colonies and fleets will be trapped without any resources and forced to surrender. Any attempt to counterattack would surely prove futile against superior Star Wars forces.

You don't even have any idea about the powers and technologies of those species because you don't even watch ST...

Month 2: With most of the Star Trek civilizations defeated, the two major survivors would be the borg and species 8472. A powerful Jedi such as Luke Skywalker as of LOTF could mind read a borg drone and figure out the location of the transwarp hubs, or probe droids could be sent. Either way, fleets of star destroyers could easily destroy the transwarp hubs. Meanwhile, the borg and species 8472 may try and counterattack, but even these two are heavily outmatched and would not be prepared for starfighters. Borg cubes were harmed by 1160 megaton weapons would would get destroyed by a single volley from a star destroyer with hundreds of 2.4 million megaton turbolaser blasts.

So...How does a SD have more firepower than a species 8472 bio ship?...Seriously...Given that they destroy planets.

Month 3: With their transwarp hubs destroyed, the borg will not have the capabilities to attack Star Wars planets without taking decades to do so. Species 8742 would be the only threat left, yet even they would fall. The borg were capable of harming species 8472 ships, yet Federation starships were capable of taking hits from borg cubes, showing that species 8472 ships can get harmed by weapons that are clearly not anywhere near 2.4 million megaton weapons

Lying again despite already been told and shown that Borg ships can travel at transwarp independantly of the hubs because they have transwarp coils on board every single vessel.

Star Wars wins.

Here's what would really happen.

Kevin Uxbridge would literally "think" SW out of existence. All of it...Instantly.

And if you were to pay attention you'd realize that my current figures are only using the Star Wars figures; the Star Trek figures I am getting based on calculations and on screen evidence.

How can you claim you're using on screen evidence when you don't even watch ST?

What are they going to do about it? Centerpoint station can fire from light years away. Star Trek won't even be able to locate it.

Ok we'll go with this...If the galaxies are actually physically as far apart as the galaxies are in real space then which species from SW have actually travelled from another galaxy?

The Borg have done it...Species 8472 came from another universe...The enterprise D travelled out of it's own galaxy and through 2 others before stopping (They travelled a billion light years in just a few seconds)

I've watched some of the Federation vs borg fights. They fight at ranges within 5 kilometers and in some other fights even less than that.

They can fire weapons at warp 9 meaning those weapons can travel hundreds of millions of miles.

A borg cube got harmed by Federation proton torpedos, which are about 1160 megatons. Logic would therefore dictate that a borg cube could get destroyed by a star destroyer firing hundreds of 2.4 million (note: MILLION) megaton blasts every few seconds.

And then adapted and because completely immune...And because immune to every other weapon Star Fleet invented.

I want to go back to Robtard's point about the planet killer.

You claimed that the crew of the planet killer didn't fire on the Constellation with it's main weapon...You obviously don't realise that it doesn't have a crew and it only has one weapon...the planet killing one.

I've already covered this. I was using on screen sources (an ENGINEER stated it on screen)

Odd that when I used that argument you said the characters were fallible...

The Yuuzhan Vong war had a death toll of almost 300 trillion The Dominion War had a death toll of a few hundred million

The Dominion war had only 2 main battles in it and covered only a tiny portion of the alpha quadrant and some of the gamma quadrant on the other side of the Bajoran wormhole.

Star Wars civilization has inhabited the entire Galaxy with 100 quadrillion civilians Star Trek cvilization has inhabited a small portion of the Galaxy, trillions of civilians

Nothing like talking pish again...ST species cover the whole galaxy...SW species actually don't.

Star Wars shields can survive numerous shots from 2.4 million megaton force weapons Star Trek shields get damaged by flying debris

Do I need to bring up the star destroyer getting massively damaged by the asteroid for about the millionth time in this thread.

The only two Star Trek species that might pose a threat to Star Wars are the Borg and Species 8472. The others would get conquered in under a week. We're talking about Star Wars, which is thousands of years ahead of Star Trek technology wise

Yet you have no answer and keep ignoring the tech in ST which SW hasn't even thought about (time travel...time based weapons....opening rifts to other universes...Assimilating being that don't have physical bodies)

Just want to throw my two cents in about the Star Destroyer's impact with the asteroid: it's unknown if the unidentified ISD had it's shields up (likely not, for some reason). The same design and brand of shield generator used on ISDs (though smaller) were the same kind used on the Executor-class Star Destroyers. When the Executor's shields were up, it withstood a direct impact of three ISDs simultaneously exiting hyperspace. All three ships were incinerated and the Executor only suffered minimal damage.

Isn't the Executor so many times bigger than the standard Star Destroyers, though?

Yes, 19 km-1.6 km. The Executor's shield generators are larger to compensate for it. My point is that that is the kind of shielding Star Wars is capable of circa the Galactic Civil War; instant incineration of three mile-long metal behemoths traveling as they exited hyperspace, with no structural damage to the Executor.

Originally posted by jaden101
So...How does a SD have more firepower than a species 8472 bio ship?...Seriously...Given that they destroy planets.

Not only that, but also that the Undine (Species 8472) don't technically live in the Milky Way, the way i remember it they come from an alternate dimension - Fluidic Space.

Lying again despite already been told and shown that Borg ships can travel at transwarp independantly of the hubs because they have transwarp coils on board every single vessel.

true

Kevin Uxbridge would literally "think" SW out of existence. All of it...Instantly.

if he wasn't a pacifist lol 😆

Ok we'll go with this...If the galaxies are actually physically as far apart as the galaxies are in real space then which species from SW have actually traveled from another galaxy?

The Borg have done it...Species 8472 came from another universe...The enterprise D traveled out of it's own galaxy and through 2 others before stopping (They traveled a billion light years in just a few seconds)


Not only did they travel to two other galaxies but to the edge of the known universe itself...

I want to go back to Robtard's point about the planet killer.

You claimed that the crew of the planet killer didn't fire on the Constellation with it's main weapon...You obviously don't realise that it doesn't have a crew and it only has one weapon...the planet killing one.


Doomsday Machine (aka Planet Killer) - Star Treks own planet killer. And it has the ability to fire willfully at star ships also. And it's impervious to anything Star Wars is likely to throw as it as the only known substance that can destroy it's hull is Hargh'Peng (experimental torpedoes - source is STO, not sure of canonical value) and the only way to immobilize it is to detonate a starfleet ships' engines within it's core.

Yet you have no answer and keep ignoring the tech in ST which SW hasn't even thought about (time travel...time based weapons....opening rifts to other universes...Assimilating being that don't have physical bodies)

even more fundamentally about the borg is that if they can't straight out assimilate a civilization, they have the capability to go back in time to assimilate the civilization at a more vulnerable state of history (source: ST First Contact: the borg contact the borg of 2063 so they can assimilate earth...)

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yes, 19 km-1.6 km. The Executor's shield generators are larger to compensate for it. My point is that that is the kind of shielding Star Wars is capable of circa the Galactic Civil War; instant incineration of three mile-long metal behemoths traveling as they exited hyperspace, with no structural damage to the Executor.

Where are you getting this "3 mile long behemoths" thing from. A class II ISD is only 1.5km long.

even more fundamentally about the borg is that if they can't straight out assimilate a civilization, they have the capability to go back in time to assimilate the civilization at a more vulnerable state of history (source: ST First Contact: the borg contact the borg of 2063 so they can assimilate earth...)

HESHOOTSHESCOOOOORRRESSSS.

👆

Originally posted by jaden101
Where are you getting this "3 mile long behemoths" thing from. A class II ISD is only 1.5km long.
No, not "three-mile long." 3 one-mile long ships.

Ah...OK.

Regardless...Still don't see why an ISD would got through an asteroid belt with its shields down.

Me neither. Guess to save power? Said ship doesn't even have an identity, nor does its captain. Like it was meant to be there simply to be seen getting destroyed. Shows the audience Vader's tenacious obsession. Just like how Tarkin didn't just blow up Yavin a half hour earlier. I just assume the Empire employs a pack of idiots. Which is why it woudn't win any actual engagement against competent Trek commanders.