Why are you suddenly denying the validity of the Star Wars numbers? Earlier you were denying the validity of the Star Trek numbers, but were fine with the Star Wars ones. The 300 million gigawatt figure was for the light turbolasers and the 2.4 million megatons figure was for the heavy turbolasers, or "heavy guns". There, I explained it. Stop dodging the point.
**** or GTFO (AKA proof or you're lying)
How fast are they?
Fast
You do realize that no amount of durability would stop a black hole, right?
Still a much greater feat then yours isn't it. It's science FICTION. Get over it.
Centerpoint Station Sun Crusher Galaxy Gun Death Star 1 Star Star 2 Jedi Order Sith Order Crystal phase shifters 200 trillion gigawatt reactor cores for a small star destroyer 2.4 million megaton force heavy guns Teleporting ships and more
Q
WTF is this; a size game?
No...It's a debate...And you lost ages ago.
Centerpoint Station is more powerful than any weapon you've mentioned.
Something that can move planets or something that can blow up areas of space light years across.
Hmmm....Think your idea of "power" is somewhat wrong. No wonder your figures are messed up.
Centerpoint Station
Is gay and so are you.
Prove it
Already have...Countless times.
In a ground battle, even the Gungan Grand Army would put up a good fight against Federation ground troops. I'm not joking.
So I mention a species and then you hit back with saying the Gungans could fight an entirely different species?...You really are a genius.
On the contrary, the borg won't even be able to assimilate them all. It took them thousands of years to assimilate hundreds of thousands of species individually (by species), and yet you're claiming that they can assimilate a united coalition of species more advanced than anything the borg has ever encountered and won against...in a few years???
The Borg have encountered and assimiliated species that SW couldn't even dream of. Species from different galaxies, from different universes, from different dimensions, species that don't even have physical bodies (non corporeal species). They don't assimilate vastly inferior species so your best argument would be that they would leave the vast majority of SW alone because most of the species still live in trees and mud huts.
Being able to create armor using nanotechnology for the sun crusher that was capable of deflecting turbolaser shots (2.4 million megatons, more powerful than Federation proton torpedoes, which were capable of damaging borg cubes)
Key word in your argument in relation to photon torpedoes?...WERE?. You realise that the Borg are now completely immune to photon torpedoes after a single encounter with the federation....After 1 attack they adapted. Same thing would happen to SW weapons even on the off chance that they were powerful enough to damage a Borg cube (which they're not)
And it's stated that because of that they do not give away the position of the ship, hence why Jedi equip them.
The 1st page on wookipedia says otherwise. Get over it.
A bunch of Stealth X's in a matter of seconds severely damaged an entire fleet of star destroyers. Note that these star destroyers were several decades ahead of the Acclamator.
So did an X-wing by flying into one. With its shields up.
Big tough shields eh.
Luke Skywalker didn't have a salary and could afford the Jade Shadow.
Did he have it when he was a moisture farmer or after he'd became a galactic hero?...hmmm?...Wonder if that means anything.
"a watt is only equivalent to joules per second" - exactly. I don't know where you came up with this "gigawatts total" BS. 200 trilion gigawatts vs 15 billion gigawatts, not 200 trillion gigawatts "total" (what do you mean by that?) vs 15 billion gigawatts per second.
Is it really hard to grasp that joules are measured against time but Watts aren't and don't have to be given a time measurement?
Nowhere in that quote does it imply that there are only 1000 star destroyers. He said that it would take 1000 star destroyers, not that there are only 1000 star destroyers.
The actual quote is.
"No, the entire Imperial fleet couldn't have done this. It would take a thousand ships massing a lot more firepower than has ever existed."
So yeah...Clearly indicates that the Imperial fleet doesn't have 1000 ships.
To a trillion civilians?
Why not?...Takes seconds to scan and analyse billions.
When firing laser cannons and concussion missiles, but not when firing shadow bombs.
No.
Padme's ship had a more powerful reactor core than the Enterprise.
Something else you're just going to blurt out without evidence?
This guy with the combined Force potential of an entire colony (in this case, that means several star systems) tried to Force push Luke, and Luke rooted himself in place. The author stated that not even the black hole at the center of the Galaxy could move him.
What book is it in?...I'd like to read it...Sounds good.
And yet Tatooine is not an important strategic or tactical target military wise.
Which is completely and utterly irrelevant to what we were discussing but never mind eh.
That doesn't matter, what matters in this case are the number and population of sufficiently developed planets.
Which is a case you've still not proven.
Read the OP.
Did it exist?...Yes...Is it canon?...Yes...Was it seen on screen?...Yes...Is it omnipotent or near?...No
You accuse me of getting desperate. This is without question the most desperate tactic used possibly in the history of KMC. Trying ANYTHING to disallow something which singlehandedly wipes the floor with the entire SW galaxy because it is effectively indestructible and unstoppable.
Stop making these irrelevant derogatory terms. "by a piece of cable" - you're twisting facts to make something seem weaker than it really is.
So it's not a piece of cable?...Think you'll find it is.
Let's look at some other Star Trek ground vehicles...the...um...oh, I forgot, they don't have any!!!!
Looks like they wouldn't need them if all it takes is a piece of cable and a couple of logs to stop them.
Yet it malfunctioned.
No it didn't. They just transported to the wrong place. (human error)
In what time?
Instantly...It was a so called "folded space transporter"
Yet the Enterprise D could not withstand a bunch of debris flying into it.
An executor class SD couldn't withstand a single seat fighter crashing into it. It made it plummet into the death star....Go Executor...hahaha. Piece of shiiiiitteeee.
WTF? The future Spark had already done that multiple times, unless if you're saying that he decided to use transwarp for the first time ever when he goes into the past.
Spark?...He must be new.
"both come out unscathed" - on the contrary, the Enterprise was badly damaged and only survived because that guy came up with some sort of plan to get out of it, which, if I remember correctly, involved the use of the red matter, which would not reguarly be available.
It was badly damaged in the battle before the black hole incident.
1. Its shields were down.
Why?...Because SD.net says so?...Because it didn't say so on screen.
You were trying to prove the Star Trek figure wrong, but the Star Wars figures still stand. You only recently started disputing the Star Wars figures.
I've proven all your SD.net figures wrong.
Luke creates an illusion of ships (which he has done before, FACT), luring the borg fleet there. Then, Star Wars fires centerpoint station, and bye bye borg fleet.
You have to prove the Borg are affected by telepathy because nothing in ST has shown this to be the case despite the fact that they've assimilated several powerful telepathic species.
Star Wars: millions of worlds. PWNED
Federation...Tiny fraction of the galaxy...Empire...Whole galaxy. You've already agreed that ST has more star systems...PWNED?...
Oh, and Earth, which I would assume would be the most populated Federation planet, had a population of around 9 billion. In comparison, Star War's Coruscant had a population of over a trillion.
Presumption is the brother of all ****-ups.
Besides...Even if it was the Federations most populated planet does that automatically make it the ST galaxies most populated planet? Obviously not.
Also...You made the point that the planet would actually have to have citizens which could contribute to a war...How much of Corascant is populated by criminals and drunks and prostitutes?...Quite a fair bit.
The borg would have millions of worlds (according to you; where's your source?),
Onscreen on an episode of Voyager...Pretty sure I've already mentioned that numerous times. In fact not pretty sure...100% certain.
yet how many would be developed?
Again...For reasons I've already stated several times and is mentioned many times on screen...ALL OF THEM...THE BORG DON'T ASSIMILATE SPECIES THEY DEEM UNWORTHY BECAUSE THEY AREN'T TECHNOLOGICALLY OR BIOLOGICALLY ADVANCED ENOUGH.
And yet both of these got beaten by the Federation with a few hundred worlds.
The Romulans were never defeated by the Federation and the Cardassians were only defeated by an alliance between the Federation, the Klingons and the Romulans.
Ad hominem
So you're admitting your knowledge in this debate is lacking.
Who's to say that every species 8472 ship is that powerful? By that logic, I'll cite the sun crusher and claim that every Star Wars ship is that powerful because of one example.
Good point but we can only go by what we see on screen which is 2 types of species 8472 ships...the main ships and the focusing ships.
SW on the other hand clearly shows that most ships aren't as powerful as the sun crusher.
Then why do they have transwarp hubs?
Always wondered that myself. I think the hubs are built around areas of naturally concentrated wormholes.
Desperation setting in for you, right? You're beginning to ignore the OP.
It was never stated that either Q or the Douwd were omnipotent or near omnipotent. Nor was it even implied.
Thousands of miles vs under 5 miles.
Eh?
Ever heard of the Yuuzhang Vong?
Yes...And the Silentium, Kwa and Abominor.
2. The borg weapons aren't accurate enough to reliably hit from millions of miles.
They didn't miss...Not even once.
And yet they still lost, couldn't adapt to a tommy gun, and couldn't adapt to species 8472.
They lost?...News to me.
They encountered the holographic tommy gun once.
Species 8472 were considered biologically perfect by the Borg...I would imagine it would be quite difficult to assimilate a species with a perfect immune system.
Why are you nitpicking? Does the question of whether or not it has a crew affect the argument as to whether or not it used its planet buster directly on the Enterprise?
So you making an argument and me showing everyone your ignorance is nitpicking now?
It only had one weapon...The planet destroying one...And the old enterprise took a direct hit from it and, while damaged, wasn't destroyed. Look at what happens to SW ships that take hits from the death star. So which really has the more powerful shields?
Yes, but I didn't know that it was from an engineer, so I agree with it upon realizing that. However, sadly for your argument, it actually works against you, proving my point that Star Trek ships are thousands of times weaker than Star Wars ships.
See point above.
And yet it was apparently among the most bloody wars in Star Trek, yet can't even come close to matching, say, Star Wars's YV war which costed hundreds of trillions of lives. It shows the shear difference in scale.
One of the Federations most bloody wars certainly. The Borg Species 8472 war lasted 6 months. In a single battle that lasted only a couple of hours the Borg lost 8 planets, 312 cubes and 4 billion drones.
LOL you claimed that the borg only cover 1/10 of the galaxy. Star Wars in comparison covers the entire Galaxy and have information on every planet in the Galaxy.
Are the Borg the only species in ST?...No...Does the SW galaxy have a massive area that takes up about 1/4 of the galaxy called the unknown region that is basically uncharted and where the empire had no reach? So no...There isn't information about every planet in the galaxy. You could at least learn about about your own side of the argument before trying to poke holes in mine. Would make you slightly more credible if you did.
Species 8472 still got damaged by the borg, so they're out.
Actually they didn't. Better get your facts right again matey.
BTW, couldn't Star Wars star destroyers simply capture any Star Trek ship except for maybe a borg cube by using their tractor beams?
Might wanna check that chart I posted ages ago. There are huge numbers of ST ships that dwarf SD's.
Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
this thread is still open..man oh man the star trek side has proven already they win..
star trek rules
Blatantly obvious when a class of ship like Kirk's Enterprise can take a planet-busting attack and not be completely obliterated.
Sovereign Class from Picard's era likely to solo a Star Wars fleet, maybe over-reaching a bit here, but meh.
Star Trek does, but as a franchise, Star Wars is just as great, in terms of enjoyment, imo.
Originally posted by jaden101
**** or GTFO (AKA proof or you're lying)
...the same source that I've been getting most of the Star Wars numbers from for most of the debate. Stardestroyer.net
Before you go into a ramble about how "it isn't valid" remember that the STAR WARS portion of the statistics are; your arguments to it not being valid are mainly:
1. They "aren't canon"
2. They're outdated
3. They're contradicted by higher canon
None of these apply to the Star Wars sources.
So can you please stop stalling?
Fast
How fast?
Still a much greater feat then yours isn't it. It's science FICTION. Get over it.
The Enterprise survived because that guy came up with an idea to detonate the red matter behind them or something like that. Without it, the Enterprise wouldn't have survived.
Q
Did you read the OP?
No...It's a debate...And you lost ages ago.
And yet you've made the argument of "zomg my weapon is smaller than yours and more powerful!!!" many times, which in this case isn't valid.
Something that can move planets or something that can blow up areas of space light years across.
Notice how you include the "light years" descriptive for the weapon you're supporting but not for mine, even though it applies to both.
Sinkhole station, a smaller version of Centerpoint Station, created an entire cluster of black holes.
Hmmm....Think your idea of "power" is somewhat wrong. No wonder your figures are messed up.
A black hole is more powerful than these weapons you've brought up, especially since centerpoint station can create them from a distance (as in many light years).
Is gay and so are you.
Way to dodge the point.
Already have...Countless times.
Well do you mind to state it once more?
So I mention a species and then you hit back with saying the Gungans could fight an entirely different species?...You really are a genius.
I'm saying that even the Gungans could put up a fight in a ground battle against Star Trek.
The Borg have encountered and assimiliated species that SW couldn't even dream of. Species from different galaxies, from different universes, from different dimensions, species that don't even have physical bodies (non corporeal species). They don't assimilate vastly inferior species so your best argument would be that they would leave the vast majority of SW alone because most of the species still live in trees and mud huts.
Yet they couldn't do so to tommy guns or species 8472.
Key word in your argument in relation to photon torpedoes?...WERE?. You realise that the Borg are now completely immune to photon torpedoes after a single encounter with the federation....After 1 attack they adapted. Same thing would happen to SW weapons even on the off chance that they were powerful enough to damage a Borg cube (which they're not)
Being able to adapt to 1160 megaton weapons does not equate to being able to adapt to 2.4 million megaton weapons.
The 1st page on wookipedia says otherwise. Get over it.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_shadow_bomb
So did an X-wing by flying into one. With its shields up.
Big tough shields eh.
WTF?
1. It was an A wing
2. The Eclipse's shields were DOWN
3. The A wing hit the most vulnerable part of the ship.
Did he have it when he was a moisture farmer or after he'd became a galactic hero?...hmmm?...Wonder if that means anything.
Either way, he wasn't rich.
Also, Padme owned a private ship, and before you ramble about how she was a Senator, that still doesn't equate to her being rich.
Is it really hard to grasp that joules are measured against time but Watts aren't and don't have to be given a time measurement?
Thanks for supporting my argument. There is no unit of "gigawatts per second". 200 trillion gigawatts vs 15 billioin gigawatts.
The actual quote is.
So yeah...Clearly indicates that the Imperial fleet doesn't have 1000 ships.
Ever heard of a figure of speech?
Why not?...Takes seconds to scan and analyse billions.
Perhaps.
No.
Again:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_shadow_bomb
Something else you're just going to blurt out without evidence?
Stardestroyer.net
Although I'll admit that her ship may not have had as powerful of a reactor core than some later versions of the Enterprise, it was still a civilian ship smaller and less combat related (the Enterprise wasn't really, but more than Padme's ship).
What book is it in?...I'd like to read it...Sounds good.
Star Wars: Dark Nest 3 The Swarm War
Which is completely and utterly irrelevant to what we were discussing but never mind eh.
My point is that a 4 light year destroying weapon would not have that much of an advantage compared to a star system destroying weapon due to the huge distance between inhabited Star Wars star systems.
Which is a case you've still not proven.
Several million worlds, most that have been around for thousands of years. Coruscant arguably had a higher population than the entire Federation.
Did it exist?...Yes...Is it canon?...Yes...Was it seen on screen?...Yes...Is it omnipotent or near?...No
"did it exist" - actually, in Star Trek canon it didn't actually exist since it erased itself from ever existing.
Star Wars wins.
You accuse me of getting desperate. This is without question the most desperate tactic used possibly in the history of KMC. Trying ANYTHING to disallow something which singlehandedly wipes the floor with the entire SW galaxy because it is effectively indestructible and unstoppable.
By that logic I'll allow The Force itself as a part of Star Wars and say that it pwns Star Trek.
BTW, even if that time ship that you keep on boasting about is allowed, it wouldn't be enough if Star Wars prepares for it.
So it's not a piece of cable?...Think you'll find it is.
Yet you make it seem as though it was some typical weak piece of cable, but in this case it was a large, thick durasteel cable.
Looks like they wouldn't need them if all it takes is a piece of cable and a couple of logs to stop them.
Thick durasteel cable - Star Wars had them and the fighters to use them without getting shot down (many snowspeeders still were). Star Trek does not.
Couple of logs - the Enterprise was harmed by flying debris.
No it didn't. They just transported to the wrong place. (human error)
Which is my point.
Instantly...It was a so called "folded space transporter"
Ok
An executor class SD couldn't withstand a single seat fighter crashing into it. It made it plummet into the death star....Go Executor...hahaha. Piece of shiiiiitteeee.
I covered this.
Originally posted by jaden101
And when a Skywalker is saying it then you know it's true.
yep..
Originally posted by Robtard
Blatantly obvious when a class of ship like Kirk's Enterprise can take a planet-busting attack and not be completely obliterated.Sovereign Class from Picard's era likely to solo a Star Wars fleet, maybe over-reaching a bit here, but meh.
Star Trek does, but as a franchise, Star Wars is just as great, in terms of enjoyment, imo.
i agree i love star trek as much as i love star wars
Originally posted by jaden101
Spark?...He must be new.
Sorry, I mean Spock, but do you really have to nitpick?
It was badly damaged in the battle before the black hole incident.
And it only survived because it had the red matter and used it in some sort of counter blast or something.
Why?...Because SD.net says so?...Because it didn't say so on screen.
Nor did it say that its shields were up. If its shields were up then the scene would contradict numerous other sources. Therefore, the other sources show that the shields were down. Why is it that you only seem to acknowledge the sources that support your argument?
I've proven all your SD.net figures wrong.
No, you've merely done a relatively good job of proving the Star Trek figures to be sketchy, but not the Star Wars figures.
Stop dodging the point and counter my point.
You have to prove the Borg are affected by telepathy because nothing in ST has shown this to be the case despite the fact that they've assimilated several powerful telepathic species.
The borg are unfamiliar with Force powers.
Federation...Tiny fraction of the galaxy...Empire...Whole galaxy. You've already agreed that ST has more star systems...PWNED?...
Not simply the Federation; even the borg are only about 1/10th of the Galaxy. Star Wars clearly has more developed planets.
Presumption is the brother of all ****-ups.
Besides...Even if it was the Federations most populated planet does that automatically make it the ST galaxies most populated planet? Obviously not.
Also...You made the point that the planet would actually have to have citizens which could contribute to a war...How much of Corascant is populated by criminals and drunks and prostitutes?...Quite a fair bit.
The same point could be applied in reverse.
Onscreen on an episode of Voyager...Pretty sure I've already mentioned that numerous times. In fact not pretty sure...100% certain.
Please elaborate.
Again...For reasons I've already stated several times and is mentioned many times on screen...ALL OF THEM...THE BORG DON'T ASSIMILATE SPECIES THEY DEEM UNWORTHY BECAUSE THEY AREN'T TECHNOLOGICALLY OR BIOLOGICALLY ADVANCED ENOUGH.
Yes, I understand that, but you're still dodging the point.
The Romulans were never defeated by the Federation and the Cardassians were only defeated by an alliance between the Federation, the Klingons and the Romulans.
The Federation was on a similar level to these civilizations (hence why they were able to wage war on a rather even level with them), and each of them would get defeated by Star Wars pretty easily.
Star Wars: 200 trilion gigawatts
Star Trek: 15 billion gigawatts
Yes, I've stated this multiple times and your only response is some BS about "gigawatts per second" and "gigawatts total".
So you're admitting your knowledge in this debate is lacking.
Ad hominem
Good point but we can only go by what we see on screen which is 2 types of species 8472 ships...the main ships and the focusing ships.
And yet you still haven't shown that all of the species 8472 ships are that powerful, which they aren't.
SW on the other hand clearly shows that most ships aren't as powerful as the sun crusher.
Yet the same logic could be used against you.
Always wondered that myself. I think the hubs are built around areas of naturally concentrated wormholes.
Which means that the hubs have an important role, probably either boosting the speed or plotting a course.
It was never stated that either Q or the Douwd were omnipotent or near omnipotent. Nor was it even implied.
On the contrary, Q would often claim that he was omnipotent.
Eh?
In the Battle of Endor star destroyers were fighting in the range of thousands of kilometers.
In comparison, a lot of borg and other battles involved fighting in the range of 5 kilometers.
A star destroyer vs Federation starship fight with both sides starting out undamaged and ready would be a curbstomp. The star destroyer would be firing and sending starfighters at thousands of miles away.
Yes...And the Silentium, Kwa and Abominor.
Good for them.
They didn't miss...Not even once.
Then why don't they always use that in a battle?
They lost?...News to me.
Earth was still around.
They encountered the holographic tommy gun once.
And couldn't adapt to it.
Species 8472 were considered biologically perfect by the Borg...I would imagine it would be quite difficult to assimilate a species with a perfect immune system.
That isn't the point. I wasn't talking about assimilating the species, I was talking about them not being able to adapt to their weapons.
So you making an argument and me showing everyone your ignorance is nitpicking now?
So not having knowledge on one ship in Star Trek is a lack of knowledge to you? WTF?
You don't have knowledge on every ship in Star Wars.
Star Wars wins, and whether or not that ship had a crew or not doesn't change this.
It only had one weapon...The planet destroying one...And the old enterprise took a direct hit from it and, while damaged, wasn't destroyed. Look at what happens to SW ships that take hits from the death star. So which really has the more powerful shields?See point above.
"direct hit" - when is this stated? The battle wasn't even shown
One of the Federations most bloody wars certainly. The Borg Species 8472 war lasted 6 months. In a single battle that lasted only a couple of hours the Borg lost 8 planets, 312 cubes and 4 billion drones.
Hundreds of trillions vs 4 billion
Thanks for proving my point.
Are the Borg the only species in ST?...No...Does the SW galaxy have a massive area that takes up about 1/4 of the galaxy called the unknown region that is basically uncharted and where the empire had no reach? So no...There isn't information about every planet in the galaxy. You could at least learn about about your own side of the argument before trying to poke holes in mine. Would make you slightly more credible if you did.
"There isn't information about every planet in the galaxy" - which further proves my point.
Actually they didn't. Better get your facts right again matey.
Actually, the borg did damage species 8472 by a bit. Star Wars could easily do that as well in this case as well, yet far more damage.
Might wanna check that chart I posted ages ago. There are huge numbers of ST ships that dwarf SD's.
And yet few, if any are as powerful.
Originally posted by Robtard
Don't let like die-hard Star Wars or Star Trek fanboys hear you say that. You'll be pummeled by plastic lightsabres and rubber Vulcan ears.
i can use my own plastic lightsabers against them 😄
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I'm not trying to be offensive, but why do you refuse to actually, say, respond to my arguments? If you're going to participate in this thread would you mine giving your arguments?
there is no need for rehashing of same arguments you are having with jaden
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
Low indeed to the respective fan-boys/girls of Star Trek and Star Wars...however, to my friends I say loud and proud that I'm a Star Trek/Wars fan-boy...love 'em.
Yes, I am a fan of Star Wars and Star Trek seems to be pretty good as well, but why haven't you responded to my rebuttals to your argument yet? I'm not trying to pressure you, but what is it with a lot of people posting in this thread several times that they think that one side would win while occasionally responding to an argument, yet, despite posting in this forum at a somewhat frequent rate, don't respond to rebuttals to their arguments?
Although Star Trek is a good series, it isn't on the same advancement in universe wise in terms of technology as Star Wars, which is fine since the former is supposed to take place mostly a few hundred years from now. The latter, while "a long time ago in the Galaxy far far away", involves civilizations that had been space traveling for hundreds of thousands of years. I think that you Star Trek supporters don't understand that. Star Wars is far ahead of Star Trek technologically speaking in most categories. It's like comparing the modern day USA to the British Empire circa the 18th century.
Well, actually, a better analogy might be comparing modern day World with some enhancements to the FF12 cvilizations (not including gods and such). Although the FF12 civilizations have some advantages, the modern day World would still win in a war (if the two sides are within striking capabilities) quite easily.