Originally posted by Lord LucienUm.....The Death star was clearing the planet of Yavin, they had to get into range to blow up Yavin IV. Yavin IV is one of the moons of Yavin. Tarkin was in the process of blowing up Yavin IV when Luke torped the Death star.
Shows the audience Vader's tenacious obsession. Just like how Tarkin didn't just blow up Yavin a half hour earlier.
Originally posted by Rogue JediThat's right, I had forgotten, seeing as how I'd never seen the movie.
Um.....The Death star was clearing the planet of Yavin, they had to get into range to blow up Yavin IV. Yavin IV is one of the moons of Yavin. Tarkin was in the process of blowing up Yavin IV when Luke torped the Death star.
If he had destroyed Yavin, what does Yavin IV have to orbit?
I assume that Star Wars gas giants, like their real life counterparts, have solid cores. Even if it didn't, Tarkin still could have fired through the planet and hit the moon. Either way, his idiocy or hubris really got the better of him. Not to mention how few fighters were dispatched to protect the station.
Originally posted by jaden101
Proof?...And not from stardestroyer.net...I want proper evidence because you were adamant the old figure was the heavy guns before.
Why are you suddenly denying the validity of the Star Wars numbers? Earlier you were denying the validity of the Star Trek numbers, but were fine with the Star Wars ones.
The 300 million gigawatt figure was for the light turbolasers and the 2.4 million megatons figure was for the heavy turbolasers, or "heavy guns".
There, I explained it. Stop dodging the point.
The Jem Hadar ships were as small and agile as starfighters. You also seem to have forgotten a major point regarding this thread (as had I until earlier today)...Battlestar Galactica/Cylons also have a large number of fighters.
How fast are they?
Apologies...But it also makes your point even weaker because a black hole has far more destructive power than a neutron star.
You do realize that no amount of durability would stop a black hole, right?
I don't understand the difference?...really?....REALLY REALLY?...You're the one who has completely forgotten and disregards the following
Iconian Gateway...
Dyson's sphere
multi kinetic neutronic mine
Dreadnought intelligent WMD
Krenim time ship
Perfect cloaking technology
Planetary cloaks
Magnetometric guided charges
Shield draining weapons
Ability to fire weapons at warp
transwarp
planet destroying single man ships
Chroniton torpedoes
Polaron Torpedoes
Quantum torpedoes
Transphasic torpedoes
Isokinetic cannon
Centerpoint Station
Sun Crusher
Galaxy Gun
Death Star 1
Star Star 2
Jedi Order
Sith Order
Crystal phase shifters
200 trillion gigawatt reactor cores for a small star destroyer
2.4 million megaton force heavy guns
Teleporting ships
and more
A MKNM is smaller than a sun crusher and can destroy an areas hundreds of thousands of times as big.
WTF is this; a size game?
Why are you still giving (faulty) figures...Especially for that of a photon torpedo as if it's representative of the power of the ST galaxy. I've clearly shown weapons that are massively more powerful than anything star wars has yet every time I do you answer with a wrong figure for a photon torpedo (a weapon which I haven't even discussed because I know it's not powerful compared with other ST weapons)
Centerpoint Station is more powerful than any weapon you've mentioned.
I love it when you make a claim but don't even name the weapon or show any evidence for it.
Centerpoint Station
Yeah...Your faulty "the shields will stop it" argument and your even more ridiculous "it erased itself from existence so it doesn't count" argument...Both of which are total nonsense.
Prove it
How are tuscan raiders or jawas or ewoks or any of these huge number or generally useless species more advanced than, for example, Guinan's species. You realise it was hinted that Guinan could actually defend herself against Q yet the Borg all but destroyed her species.
In a ground battle, even the Gungan Grand Army would put up a good fight against Federation ground troops. I'm not joking.
The only argument you've got to keep you hundreds of quadrillions of citizens is that the Borg would deem most of them unworthy of assimilation?
On the contrary, the borg won't even be able to assimilate them all. It took them thousands of years to assimilate hundreds of thousands of species individually (by species), and yet you're claiming that they can assimilate a united coalition of species more advanced than anything the borg has ever encountered and won against...in a few years???
This is where you're supposed to give examples of SW nanotech has done that matches being able to assimilate biological and technological species/tech within a few minutes.
Being able to create armor using nanotechnology for the sun crusher that was capable of deflecting turbolaser shots (2.4 million megatons, more powerful than Federation proton torpedoes, which were capable of damaging borg cubes)
This is where you have to prove that the borg all have similar DNA...Odd you would claim that given that they're made up of hundreds of thousands of different species.
Yeah, good point.
Will you ever stop making bullshit excuses up on the spot?
Will you ever stop claiming that something is BS without explaining how?
They're proton torpedoes guided by the force...
And it's stated that because of that they do not give away the position of the ship, hence why Jedi equip them.
And where are you getting this 70 trillion gigawatt shield info from?
The same source that I've been using for most of this thread. You haven't denied the Star Wars part of it until now, in which case you're getting desperate.
What ship was it?
Proof please.
A bunch of Stealth X's in a matter of seconds severely damaged an entire fleet of star destroyers. Note that these star destroyers were several decades ahead of the Acclamator.
That's not proof...That's nonsensical conjecture...Figures...Not nonsense.
Luke Skywalker didn't have a salary and could afford the Jade Shadow.
No they're not joules per second...A watt is only equivalent to joules per second...You don't have to express watts in reference to time...If you say a generator gives out a certain amount of power in watts then that's the total wattage that generator can give out either in it's life time or until it's fuel runs out...Which is what the SW ship is stated in because it has no time unit attached. The ST figure IS given with a time indicator rather than it's total output. I showed the calculations on here quite a few pages ago.
"a watt is only equivalent to joules per second" - exactly. I don't know where you came up with this "gigawatts total" BS. 200 trilion gigawatts vs 15 billion gigawatts, not 200 trillion gigawatts "total" (what do you mean by that?) vs 15 billion gigawatts per second.
Well I am sure about the Thrawn figure because I own and have read the novels several times. And yes...I am referring to when Han (who's business relies on him knowing the strength and whereabouts of the empire's fleet) stated that there wasn't a weapon capable of destroying a planet and that it would take "1000 star destroyers with more firepower than is possible" (paraphrased)
Nowhere in that quote does it imply that there are only 1000 star destroyers. He said that it would take 1000 star destroyers, not that there are only 1000 star destroyers.
An old ST ship can do that from orbit.
To a trillion civilians?
Yet the wookipedia entry says they give their position away when firing weapons or sending out transmissions...
When firing laser cannons and concussion missiles, but not when firing shadow bombs.
So you make up these ships in your mind and then state that these made up ships are more powerful than the enterprise?...What kind of ****ed up logic is that?
Padme's ship had a more powerful reactor core than the Enterprise.
haha...see above.
Except that mine isn't speculation.
Context?
This guy with the combined Force potential of an entire colony (in this case, that means several star systems) tried to Force push Luke, and Luke rooted himself in place. The author stated that not even the black hole at the center of the Galaxy could move him.
Just because our solar system is light years from another star doesn't mean that all are...Look at Tatooine....It's a binary system.
And yet Tatooine is not an important strategic or tactical target military wise.
You also realise your argument means that you're admitting there is less star systems and therefor less planets in SW than ST because both galaxies are approx 120,000 across.
That doesn't matter, what matters in this case are the number and population of sufficiently developed planets.
Was it seen on screen?...Yes...Therefor can it be used in this debate...Yes...So stop talking utter ****ing bollocks.
Read the OP.
Yeah...A weapon that can devastate a world through tectonic displacement can't damage an AT-AT that was brought down by a piece of cable...Ok.
Stop making these irrelevant derogatory terms. "by a piece of cable" - you're twisting facts to make something seem weaker than it really is.
Lets look at some of the other forms of SW ground weapons...The AT-ST...Blew to pieces when hit with a couple of logs.
Let's look at some other Star Trek ground vehicles...the...um...oh, I forgot, they don't have any!!!!
Originally posted by jaden101
Limited range?...In the latest movies (set in the older time line) they transported on to a ship moving at warp speed (thus over millions of miles)
Yet it malfunctioned.
The Sikarians could transport a 1/3 of the way across the galaxy (40,000 light years)
In what time?
Could a LAAT destabilise a planet's techtonic plates with it's weapon?...No...The Enterprise D did.
Yet the Enterprise D could not withstand a bunch of debris flying into it.
Yeah...while the ship was travelling at warp speed and that was supposed to be the 1st time it had ever been done.
WTF? The future Spark had already done that multiple times, unless if you're saying that he decided to use transwarp for the first time ever when he goes into the past.
So the oldest and weakest enterprise survives a black hole and an imperial II star destroyer survives a black hole....both come out unscathed.
"both come out unscathed" - on the contrary, the Enterprise was badly damaged and only survived because that guy came up with some sort of plan to get out of it, which, if I remember correctly, involved the use of the red matter, which would not reguarly be available.
And a star destroyer's entire command bridge was vapourised by an asteroid.
1. Its shields were down.
2. An asteroid that size is far, far more deadly than that flying debris that hit the Enterprise. An asteroid at sufficient size and speed can cause a mass extinction on Earth. The flying debris that harmed the Enterprise more than dominion weapons did could not.
I proved beyond any doubt that the site uses either blatently wrong figures or vastly outdated figures.
You were trying to prove the Star Trek figure wrong, but the Star Wars figures still stand. You only recently started disputing the Star Wars figures.
You're dodging the point. 2.4 million megatons (canon figure) vs 1160 megatons (which you can't dispute since you're the one that came up with this figure). PWNED
You've tried to use this hypothetical scripting before yet when I did it you said I wasn't allowed?....Hypocrite much?
BS. My "scripting" is based off of facts.
Luke creates an illusion of ships (which he has done before, FACT), luring the borg fleet there. Then, Star Wars fires centerpoint station, and bye bye borg fleet.
150 Homeworlds...Thousands of colonies...
Star Wars: millions of worlds. PWNED
Oh, and Earth, which I would assume would be the most populated Federation planet, had a population of around 9 billion. In comparison, Star War's Coruscant had a population of over a trillion.
No...Most of the other factions don't have that little numbers...The Borg are stated on screen as having millions of worlds...The Dominion were said to occupy untold thousands of worlds.
"untold thousands" would still be in the thousands
The borg would have millions of worlds (according to you; where's your source?), yet how many would be developed? How many would have the population of Star Wars planets?
The Romulan Star empire was similar....The Cardassian empire was similar.
And yet both of these got beaten by the Federation with a few hundred worlds.
You don't even have any idea about the powers and technologies of those species because you don't even watch ST...
Ad hominem
So...How does a SD have more firepower than a species 8472 bio ship?...Seriously...Given that they destroy planets.
Who's to say that every species 8472 ship is that powerful? By that logic, I'll cite the sun crusher and claim that every Star Wars ship is that powerful because of one example.
Lying again despite already been told and shown that Borg ships can travel at transwarp independantly of the hubs because they have transwarp coils on board every single vessel.
Then why do they have transwarp hubs?
Here's what would really happen.
Kevin Uxbridge would literally "think" SW out of existence. All of it...Instantly.
Desperation setting in for you, right? You're beginning to ignore the OP.
How can you claim you're using on screen evidence when you don't even watch ST?
YOU are the one that made that claim. Stop dodging the point. 200 trilion gigawatts vs 15 billion gigawatts. 2.4 million megatons vs 1160 megatons. Thousands of miles vs under 5 miles.
Ok we'll go with this...If the galaxies are actually physically as far apart as the galaxies are in real space then which species from SW have actually travelled from another galaxy?
Ever heard of the Yuuzhang Vong?
The Borg have done it...Species 8472 came from another universe...The enterprise D travelled out of it's own galaxy and through 2 others before stopping (They travelled a billion light years in just a few seconds)
Yuuzhang Vong
They can fire weapons at warp 9 meaning those weapons can travel hundreds of millions of miles.
And yet they rarely use it. Instead, they attack when the Federation ships to approach within a few kilometers, implying that:
1. The borg are really stupid
or
2. The borg weapons aren't accurate enough to reliably hit from millions of miles.
And then adapted and because completely immune...And because immune to every other weapon Star Fleet invented.
And yet they still lost, couldn't adapt to a tommy gun, and couldn't adapt to species 8472.
I want to go back to Robtard's point about the planet killer.
You claimed that the crew of the planet killer didn't fire on the Constellation with it's main weapon...You obviously don't realise that it doesn't have a crew and it only has one weapon...the planet killing one.
Why are you nitpicking? Does the question of whether or not it has a crew affect the argument as to whether or not it used its planet buster directly on the Enterprise?
Odd that when I used that argument you said the characters were fallible...
Yes, but I didn't know that it was from an engineer, so I agree with it upon realizing that. However, sadly for your argument, it actually works against you, proving my point that Star Trek ships are thousands of times weaker than Star Wars ships.
The Dominion war had only 2 main battles in it and covered only a tiny portion of the alpha quadrant and some of the gamma quadrant on the other side of the Bajoran wormhole.
And yet it was apparently among the most bloody wars in Star Trek, yet can't even come close to matching, say, Star Wars's YV war which costed hundreds of trillions of lives. It shows the shear difference in scale.
Nothing like talking pish again...ST species cover the whole galaxy...SW species actually don't.
LOL you claimed that the borg only cover 1/10 of the galaxy. Star Wars in comparison covers the entire Galaxy and have information on every planet in the Galaxy.
Do I need to bring up the star destroyer getting massively damaged by the asteroid for about the millionth time in this thread.
1. Its shields were down
2. An asteroid that size can actually be very deadly. One traveling fast enough could cause a mass extinction on Earth. The flying debris that damaged the Enterprise couldn't.
Yet you have no answer and keep ignoring the tech in ST which SW hasn't even thought about (time travel...time based weapons....opening rifts to other universes...Assimilating being that don't have physical bodies)
The Federation, Romulans, Klingons and other species that level would get conquered easily by Star Wars. Why? Several reasons, one being the sheer number difference; millions of worlds vs a few thousand. Another being the technological difference; Federation starships had a range of a few kilometers; Star Wars star destroyers had a range of several thousand miles. And there's still the 200 trillion gigawatt vs 15 billion gigawatt figure.
With that you're left with the borg, species 8472 and the dominion. The latter lost to the Federation alliance, so they fall easily as well. Their fleet was about 30,000 including fighters, and they still fought at ranges within 5 kilometers and would have no weapons that could damage 70 trillion gigawatt shields, since their weapons didn't do as much damage to the Enterprise as flying debris did.
The borg still got damaged by 1160 megaton (a figure YOU brought up) weapons, so they're out.
Species 8472 still got damaged by the borg, so they're out.
BTW, couldn't Star Wars star destroyers simply capture any Star Trek ship except for maybe a borg cube by using their tractor beams?
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Yet it malfunctioned.
[quote][quote]Yeah...A weapon that can devastate a world through tectonic displacement can't damage an AT-AT that was brought down by a piece of cable...Ok.
1. Its shields were down.
2. An asteroid that size is far, far more deadly than that flying debris that hit the Enterprise. An asteroid at sufficient size and speed can cause a mass extinction on Earth. The flying debris that harmed the Enterprise more than dominion weapons did could not.
I've noticed you're using arguments you don't like people using to nullify your arguments against others...
You're dodging the point. 2.4 million megatons (canon figure) vs 1160 megatons (which you can't dispute since you're the one that came up with this figure). PWNED
Where is everyone getting these figures from...wtf?
Sovereign Class (Enterprise E)
Why not use these figures?
Luke creates an illusion of ships (which he has done before, FACT), luring the borg fleet there. Then, Star Wars fires centerpoint station, and bye bye borg fleet.
Star Wars: millions of worlds. PWNEDOh, and Earth, which I would assume would be the most populated Federation planet, had a population of around 9 billion. In comparison, Star War's Coruscant had a population of over a trillion.
The borg would have millions of worlds (according to you; where's your source?), yet how many would be developed? How many would have the population of Star Wars planets?
also, not sure if you guys are considering ST EU as canon, but ST The Motion Picture - V'ger is supposed to be coming back to earth from the Borg homeworld...it states that it recorded millions of worlds across thousands of galaxies.
And yet both of these got beaten by the Federation with a few hundred worlds.
Who's to say that every species 8472 ship is that powerful? By that logic, I'll cite the sun crusher and claim that every Star Wars ship is that powerful because of one example.
Then why do they have transwarp hubs?
Desperation setting in for you, right? You're beginning to ignore the OP.
Ever heard of the Yuuzhang Vong?
1. The borg are really stupidor
2. The borg weapons aren't accurate enough to reliably hit from millions of miles.
And yet they still lost, couldn't adapt to a tommy gun, and couldn't adapt to species 8472.
Yes, but I didn't know that it was from an engineer, so I agree with it upon realizing that. However, sadly for your argument, it actually works against you, proving my point that Star Trek ships are thousands of times weaker than Star Wars ships.And yet it [the Dominion War] was apparently among the most bloody wars in Star Trek, yet can't even come close to matching, say, Star Wars's YV war which costed hundreds of trillions of lives. It shows the shear difference in scale.
1. Its shields were down
2. An asteroid that size can actually be very deadly. One traveling fast enough could cause a mass extinction on Earth. The flying debris that damaged the Enterprise couldn't.
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
still worked though...
Yet one member almost died in that transpoter transwarp feat.
Stop making these irrelevant derogatory terms. "by a piece of cable" - you're twisting facts to make something seem weaker than it really is.
Yet the Enterprise D could not withstand a bunch of debris flying into it.
Don't use derogatory terms. "a bunch of debris" - you're twisting facts to make something seem weaker than it really is.How dense was this "debris"? How fast was it traveling?
I've noticed you're using arguments you don't like people using to nullify your arguments against others...
The debris was from a blown up ship. The debris hit the Enterprise whose shields were up. And yet it damaged the Enterprise.
Where is everyone getting these figures from...wtf?
Sovereign Class (Enterprise E)
Why not use these figures?
Thanks for proving my point. Those figures are FAR lower than Star Wars Acclamator's figures, even though an Acclamator is outdated in Star Wars terms by LOTF and the Galaxy class is in Star Trek very modern and up to date.
I think you'll find that the borg aren't as stupid as the series portrays them. It's called a plot device that makes the Federation seem more superior. If you want a more believable outcome of Fed vs. Borg then watch the episode Wolf 359 - Deep Space 9...and the film First Contact.
Except in this case the "plot device" is valid because it happens consistently, not simply once, and not due to sheer luck.
Ever considered planet size? Corusant is a massive planet, therefore is more likely to withstand a vastly large population. Plus Corusant is one massive city. Earth is a small planet that can barely sustain 6.5Billion to this day...with oceans =O.
Coruscant would have to be small enough for humans to safely live on it though. My point is that Star Wars is far more developed and ahead of Star Trek.
ST: Voyager...
also, not sure if you guys are considering ST EU as canon, but ST The Motion Picture - V'ger is supposed to be coming back to earth from the Borg homeworld...it states that it recorded millions of worlds across thousands of galaxies.
Not canon according to official Star Trek sources.
On the other hand, Star Wars EU is canon according to official Star Wars sources.
plot device...
Yet it happened and wasn't some freak exception.
You see hardly any Species 8472 ships to be able to state that they aren't extremely powerful and impervious to Fed weapons...yet you see countless alien vessels in SW. So you're claim on citing every SW ship as having the same power as a sun crusher is void.
My point is that you can't claim that every species 8472 ship is a planet buster because of one ship.
Surely knowing where you're going before you go there countless thousands of times is smarter?
So by that logic, how would the borg know where they're going without these transwarp hubs?
Kevin Uxbridge is a viable source, the Ent-D meets with him. Just like all your far-fetched and immensely powerful ships and entities are viable sources also? See how this game works?
Name one "far fetched" ship that I've mentioned. You do realize that an Acclamator is outdated by LOTF in Star Wars, right?
What about the Ent-D traveling to the edge of the known universe?
Source?
I think you'll find that borg can't actually adapt to human ingenuity...or physical attack - a tommy guns bullets are physical assault. Borg adaption applied to phased energy weapons only, and Species 8472 are from an alternate dimension composed of fluidic matter and countless forms of energy that aren't present in normal space?
Star Wars doesn't used phased energy weapons (and they do have projectile weapons, although they don't use them that much), so thanks for proving my point.
Star Wars is set over a long period of time. The entirety of the STTNG Series is set over a total of about 10 years...The Domination War of which only started towards the end of TNG and finished not long after First Contact - about 2.5 years.
Thanks for proving my point then.
This again? Despite the instances were completely different. You couldn't tell how fast the asteroid was going or how dense it was, or how fast the interstellar debris was going and how dense it was...they generally don't publish information like that so it's purely speculation.
"interstellar debris" - was the remains of a starship (and far less mass than that asteroid), and it damaged the Enterprise.
That asteroid was a giant asteroid and hit what structurally would be the weakest part of the star destroyer (IDK why they put the command bridge there) whose shields were probably down.
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
lol
That's right, you go like "lol" because you can't actually counter my argument.
Originally posted by Robtard
WTF is wrong with you; how dare you point this out! This is a common troll tactic; who are you to say he can't use it?
WTF is it with you? You haven't done anything for like the past 7 pages other than bashing me. Seriously; why are you still posting in this thread when you clearly aren't interested in actually debating?