Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Spitfire isn't Northstar or Quicksilver, she isn't even Speed. At her classic levels her power was to be able to run 50mph, currently, unless she gotten a significant speed boost I am unaware off, she is barely fast enough to out run bullets. Not exactly unhittable for some with easily 10x human reflexes.
She ran two miles in a couple of seconds that mach4. In Captain America prior to MI:13 she stated that she was faster.
Originally posted by 0mega Spawnyour taking it out of context...
ok Mr...Sabe beats superior opponents via strong will 😆your argument been fell apart 😆
he wins b/c he is stubborn and through sheer grit refuses to fall down or pass out from attacks that would ko anyone else with similar powersets as his own due to his life experience.
Originally posted by jinzinArguing about what Sabretooth could have done, and ignore everything Hans could have done... seems odd, no?
How is this a double standard? I saw your point; I never argued against the fact that Hans stopped blasting Sabretooth or that Sabretooth cheapshotted him the second time around.... None of that has anything to do with the proofs I've been taking from the example. 😐
Yes, proof. What is your proof?
Sabretooth takes 9 punches from a 'class 100'. Gets dropped on his ass. Apparently this is proof that superspeed won't work against him?
Sabretooth gets thrown about 30 feet down, not 20 stories (noticed you said this earlier)? The only time he fell twenty stories was when he got hit with a beam, and got KO'ed after the fall.
Sabretooth adapted to superspeed when he caught mini Hans when he kicked him while they both were in mid air? No, not even close.
Originally posted by jinzin
How not? Was Sabretooth able to grab him when he hit Sabretooth with a blindside?
Originally posted by jinzin
They were showing tossing tanks around, knocking sentinal sized robots around and we know that the superstrength was developed from using Namor's physiology to create a Namor clone as was relievent earlier in the arc... though I suppose we should ignore that and pretend Sinister would make an inferior model.... 🙄
Is that what we're supposed to assume? Because that wasn't flat out stated, and Sinister seemingly used all the DNA to create the N2 what, like 60 years ago? It said he learned from his mistakes, IE, he can't just make a strong being. It never said he was going to give everything Namor strength from now on.
True dat, every clone is just as strong as the original. That's a constant in comics...
Actually, didn't Captain America KO Sinister's N2 Namor clone anyway? And before you say it, the N2 beat Namor due to it's heat sapping Namor's strength.
Originally posted by jinzinYou assume I'm saying that Spitfire could beat Sabretooth? No, I don't. Actually, if I learned anything from the Hans battle, it's that Sabretooth is really ****ing durable, but that's about the extent I'll go with that.
Yeah the difference being in the EXTREME difference in strength between Spitfire and Hans... She could land punches on someone all day and only hope to do a fraction of a couple class 100 flush shots...It disproves super speed being a sure fire tactic when the second superman attempted to use it on Sabretooth and was at an immediate disadvantage...
Ya, because he was flying through the air... I'd assume land is what you'd need to use superspeed when you can't fly, no?
Anyway, let me give you my take on the battle (not like you care), and what it proves.
What it proves first off:
Sabretooth is crafty. He played possom, and he took his chance to take Hans out by gutting him.
Sabretooth is durable. He took like 9 punches from Hans, a 30 foot throw straight down, and an eyebeam. He also took a kick from Mini Hans, before he was down from a combo of an eyebeam and a large fall.
Sabretooth is deadly when he gets to close range. He managed to put Hans down for a second or two when he overwhelmed him. And eventually beat him when he got the cheapshot.
What it doesn't prove:
It doesn't prove that if someone has to speed/strength to blitz him, that Sabretooth can react and beat them everytime. Him missing every punch and getting blitzed when Hans was using superspeed proves that. And no, Mini Hans doesn't count as it was nowhere near the same circumstances... and I'm not even certain he's on the same level as Hans, but that's neither here nor there.
Now of course there are other feats to use, but I'm not arguing about them. I'm talking about purely this battle, and the circumstances around them.
Originally posted by jinzinIt is PIS and CIS though. No matter what you think about PIS, it does exist. The plot put them on rooftops. The plot made them cheapshot each other. The character stupidity comes up when they let up on each other. Hell, grabbing someone with claws in mid fight is probably the dumbest thing in comics and very rarely works... actually, grabbing someone period rarely works, especially when you're only grabbing their neck.
Proves plenty. None of the points I brought up in that previous post are conjecture it's just what's there on printed paper free from the constraints of PIS or CIS. In the OVERALL scope of things CIS was involved, but it doesn't make those specific points any less true.I am following you but your argument assumes I'm taking a position that I've never made.
And the hate comment wasn't directed at you for your information... who isn't following who?
No, it's actually trying to get you to acknowledge something, but instead you want to throw a bunch of other shit at me and assume I'm arguing as if Spitfire wins here. That's how discussions get turned into overlong debates, like I predict this one is going to.
I never said the hate comment was directed at me. I just mean your general tone towards anything that doesn't 100% agree with you.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Arguing about what Sabretooth could have done, and ignore everything Hans could have done... seems odd, no?Yes, proof. What is your proof?
Sabretooth takes 9 punches from a 'class 100'. Gets dropped on his ass. Apparently this is proof that superspeed won't work against him?
Sabretooth gets thrown about 30 feet down, not 20 stories (noticed you said this earlier)? The only time he fell twenty stories was when he got hit with a beam, and got KO'ed after the fall.
Sabretooth adapted to superspeed when he caught mini Hans when he kicked him while they both were in mid air? No, not even close.That makes no sense. He doesn't suddenly get faster, and he doesn't adapt on the fly.
Not to mention that they were flying through the air when Sabretooth grabbed him... IE, not a blitz, just turning around in mid air and grabbing him. That's not superspeed, that's not even close. That's like me assuming I could deal with Manny Pacquio's speed just because I could tag him if he threw a flying knee at me.No they weren't. Hans was shown superspeeding at a tank showing it move. Punching a head in half of a Sentinel sized robot, and wrecking other robotic things. That doesn't scream class 100. That doesn't even scream him being above Spider-Man... but whatever I guess.
Is that what we're supposed to assume? Because that wasn't flat out stated, and Sinister seemingly used all the DNA to create the N2 what, like 60 years ago? It said he learned from his mistakes, IE, he can't just make a strong being. It never said he was going to give everything Namor strength from now on.
True dat, every clone is just as strong as the original. That's a constant in comics...
Actually, didn't Captain America KO Sinister's N2 Namor clone anyway? And before you say it, the N2 beat Namor due to it's heat sapping Namor's strength.You assume I'm saying that Spitfire could beat Sabretooth? No, I don't. Actually, if I learned anything from the Hans battle, it's that Sabretooth is really ****ing durable, but that's about the extent I'll go with that.
Ya, because he was flying through the air... I'd assume land is what you'd need to use superspeed when you can't fly, no?
Anyway, let me give you my take on the battle (not like you care), and what it proves.
What it proves first off:
Sabretooth is crafty. He played possom, and he took his chance to take Hans out by gutting him.
Sabretooth is durable. He took like 9 punches from Hans, a 30 foot throw straight down, and an eyebeam. He also took a kick from Mini Hans, before he was down from a combo of an eyebeam and a large fall.
Sabretooth is deadly when he gets to close range. He managed to put Hans down for a second or two when he overwhelmed him. And eventually beat him when he got the cheapshot.What it doesn't prove:
It doesn't prove that if someone has to speed/strength to blitz him, that Sabretooth can react and beat them everytime. Him missing every punch and getting blitzed when Hans was using superspeed proves that. And no, Mini Hans doesn't count as it was nowhere near the same circumstances... and I'm not even certain he's on the same level as Hans, but that's neither here nor there.Now of course there are other feats to use, but I'm not arguing about them. I'm talking about purely this battle, and the circumstances around them.
It is PIS and CIS though. No matter what you think about PIS, it does exist. The plot put them on rooftops. The plot made them cheapshot each other. The character stupidity comes up when they let up on each other. Hell, grabbing someone with claws in mid fight is probably the dumbest thing in comics and very rarely works... actually, grabbing someone period rarely works, especially when you're only grabbing their neck.
Maybe it's not what you think it is (IE, everything is overrided), but it is in play in the Hans fight.No, it's actually trying to get you to acknowledge something, but instead you want to throw a bunch of other shit at me and assume I'm arguing as if Spitfire wins here. That's how discussions get turned into overlong debates, like I predict this one is going to.
I never said the hate comment was directed at me. I just mean your general tone towards anything that doesn't 100% agree with you.
Excellent post. 👆 He's not even bothered but when he gets serious he owns.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Arguing about what Sabretooth could have done, and ignore everything Hans could have done... seems odd, no?
Well it would if that's what I was doing. I didn't ignore what Hans could have done, it's just that it isn't a point that adds nore detracts from my points I was originally presenting so it seems a waste of time to address.... Apparently you feel you've made some great point by bringing it up again.... I'm simply failing to see what that is since once more, I didn't argue with you about that in the first place.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Yes, proof. What is your proof?
Sabretooth takes 9 punches from a 'class 100'. Gets dropped on his ass. Apparently this is proof that superspeed won't work against him?
Sabretooth takes 9 punches from a "class 100" after being blindsided and launched out of a skyscraper... and the most it does is knock him down.
If a superhuman packing super speed and class 100 punches can't manage to do anything else than knock Creed down using a flurry of attacks, what exactly is a superhuman who uses superspeed and barely any superstrength supposed to do to him?
You apparently think it IS proof that superspeed alone is something that's going to do the trick in concerns to dealing with Sabretooth? 🤨
Okay maybe you can explain that one to me.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Sabretooth gets thrown about 30 feet down, not 20 stories (noticed you said this earlier)? The only time he fell twenty stories was when he got hit with a beam, and got KO'ed after the fall.
He was actually shot with 3 optic blasts at once when he took the 20 story dive.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Sabretooth adapted to superspeed when he caught mini Hans when he kicked him while they both were in mid air? No, not even close.
Your argument assumes that Sabretooth can't deal with superspeed... or at least that seems to be the suggestion that your argument presents.
Except that the only time Hans was successfully making use of his superspeed was when Sabretooth didn't know he had it. Funny that.
Because after Sabretooth figured that out he was consistently landing attacks.
He landed a flush attack after Hans had healed and got up from his initial assault.
And yes being able to time his response to an attack used by a superspeedster IS adapting himself to superspeed. No one's saying Creed's as fast as Hans, or any other speedster, but tanking an attack in order to land his own counter IS evidence that he was adapting to the speed being used on him, and it IS a tactic that he would employ against someone using superspeed.
You think that it isn't proof of this? Okay explain what it is proof of exactly... his dumb luck?
"Oh but mini-Hans was in midair and he-"
Yeah so what? That would be worth mentioning if we didn't know that he also had the power of flight and maneaverability.
In fact that Sabretooth was being blindsided again, in midair and still had the reflex to do that and catch himself from falling off the skyscraper right then and there just proves even MORE how superspeed alone isn't a sure win against Sabres.... of course you disagree apparently.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
That makes no sense. He doesn't suddenly get faster, and he doesn't adapt on the fly.
Not to mention that they were flying through the air when Sabretooth grabbed him... IE, not a blitz, just turning around in mid air and grabbing him. That's not superspeed, that's not even close. That's like me assuming I could deal with Manny Pacquio's speed just because I could tag him if he threw a flying knee at me.
Well.....it does make sense if you don't have a static and limited understanding of the sheer concept of adaptation, especially in concerns to combat.
You don't have to be physical equals with your opponent in order to adapt to how effective they are in combat.
You don't have to adapt to a boxer by being as good a boxer, taking him to his back and having superior grappling skills will do.
Your comparison is completely obtuse as it pretty much ignores the fact that Sinister's supermen had flight AND superspeed. 😕
If Pac had those attributes and you could still tag him when he was attacking you, AND that counter was enough to put him in serious harms way.... well... 😐
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
No they weren't. Hans was shown superspeeding at a tank showing it move. Punching a head in half of a Sentinel sized robot, and wrecking other robotic things. That doesn't scream class 100. That doesn't even scream him being above Spider-Man... but whatever I guess.Is that what we're supposed to assume? Because that wasn't flat out stated, and Sinister seemingly used all the DNA to create the N2 what, like 60 years ago? It said he learned from his mistakes, IE, he can't just make a strong being. It never said he was going to give everything Namor strength from now on.
True dat, every clone is just as strong as the original. That's a constant in comics...
Actually, didn't Captain America KO Sinister's N2 Namor clone anyway? And before you say it, the N2 beat Namor due to it's heat sapping Namor's strength.
You know at some point common sense has to apply to the comics world and our understanding of it.
No one's saying that the Namor clone was as impressive as the original.... (in spite of actually being equipt enough to beat the original) that's another debate for another time... But when it comes to clones on the by and large strength seems to be one of the easier things to replicate... In fact, to question Sinister's ability to replicate abilities in clones ignores his long history of being able to do just that, like creating clones that couldn't be told apart from their originals.
There's really nothing to suggest that the Namor clone was drastically weaker than his counterpart. There's nothing there to suggest his physical limitations were below a class 100 either.
Getting beaten by Cap is proof to what exactly huh?
Do I even need to start listing all the times Cap has beaten on C100 ass?
Do I need to remind you that Namor's been one of them?
At some point playing Devil's advocate til you're blue in the face doesn't work in the face of consistent suggestion.... or logic for that matter.
Why would Sinister make a super with a lower level of strength when he'd already figured out how to produce a class 100? Why would he make the super weaker when he was attempting to make an uber being?
It doesn't make any sense.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
You assume I'm saying that Spitfire could beat Sabretooth? No, I don't. Actually, if I learned anything from the Hans battle, it's that Sabretooth is really ****ing durable, but that's about the extent I'll go with that.Ya, because he was flying through the air... I'd assume land is what you'd need to use superspeed when you can't fly, no?
Originally posted by Sr J-BiebMissing some stuff but okay.
Anyway, let me give you my take on the battle (not like you care), and what it proves.
What it proves first off:
Sabretooth is crafty. He played possom, and he took his chance to take Hans out by gutting him.
Sabretooth is durable. He took like 9 punches from Hans, a 30 foot throw straight down, and an eyebeam. He also took a kick from Mini Hans, before he was down from a combo of an eyebeam and a large fall.
Sabretooth is deadly when he gets to close range. He managed to put Hans down for a second or two when he overwhelmed him. And eventually beat him when he got the cheapshot.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
What it doesn't prove:
It doesn't prove that if someone has to speed/strength to blitz him, that Sabretooth can react and beat them everytime.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Him missing every punch and getting blitzed when Hans was using superspeed proves that.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
And no, Mini Hans doesn't count as it was nowhere near the same circumstances... and I'm not even certain he's on the same level as Hans, but that's neither here nor there.
Not sure how that makes it look like Sabretooth CAN'T beat someone using superspeed.. but like you said, whatever.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Now of course there are other feats to use, but I'm not arguing about them. I'm talking about purely this battle, and the circumstances around them.It is PIS and CIS though. No matter what you think about PIS, it does exist. The plot put them on rooftops. The plot made them cheapshot each other. The character stupidity comes up when they let up on each other. Hell, grabbing someone with claws in mid fight is probably the dumbest thing in comics and very rarely works... actually, grabbing someone period rarely works, especially when you're only grabbing their neck.
Actually Hans was attempting to bear-hug Sabretooth and it wouldn't have been a bad idea if Sabretooth couldn't cut him, unfortunately for Hans his claws can cut through tons of super durable materials.
Actually that you argue against it's (the bear-hug) effectiveness is kinda ironic in concerns to Sabretooth, that's the same tactic Caliban used to break his back, back in the day.
Anyways... enough with the digression.. No one here argued there wasn't plot induced environments or CIS/PIS... it's just that none of that factors into what my argument has been so far... so again, not really sure what you think you're proving by singing to the choir.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Maybe it's not what you think it is (IE, everything is overrided), but it is in play in the Hans fight.
Originally posted by Sr J-BiebI actually don't care if someone doesn't agree with me. I respectfully disagree with people all the time.. But when I have people throwing strawmen at my face and misrepresenting my own arguments, then yeah, my tone doesn't generally maintain as hospitable.
No, it's actually trying to get you to acknowledge something, but instead you want to throw a bunch of other shit at me and assume I'm arguing as if Spitfire wins here. That's how discussions get turned into overlong debates, like I predict this one is going to.I never said the hate comment was directed at me. I just mean your general tone towards anything that doesn't 100% agree with you.
I didn't assume ANYTHING about your argument in concerns to Spitfire, I was simply making a statement about her that's relivent to the thread... 😕
At no point did I say anything about what you may or may not think about the actual debate at hand, I mean, I guess I COULD have tried to do that, but if I wanted to make my own strawman I would have had to go to your house to get the straw as it seems you have that market cornered in this thread. yawn
Blade fight really isn't any indication of how this fight would go, BLade has vampiric speed and is arguably a more skilled fighter than sabretooth. Meanwhile people argue Spitfire taking on people like Dracula and slicing the elder vampires head off, not only that they're not fighting in close quarters like in sabretooths superman fight (which did have elements of CIS) SPitfire has plenty of space to blitz and hit sabretooth hard, and she does have the strength and speed to take him out.
Originally posted by Trackz
Blade fight really isn't any indication of how this fight would go, BLade has vampiric speed and is arguably a more skilled fighter than sabretooth. Meanwhile people argue Spitfire taking on people like Dracula and slicing the elder vampires head off, not only that they're not fighting in close quarters like in sabretooths superman fight (which did have elements of CIS) SPitfire has plenty of space to blitz and hit sabretooth hard, and she does have the strength and speed to take him out.
He's not faster than Wolverine, nevermind Sabretooth.
He's arguably a more skilled fighter than Sabretooth.. Arguably... just as it's arguable that Sabretooth is actually more skilled than he is in h2h combat.
Please, provide scans, proof, evidence. You think she can win, show us.
What is so hard about that?
Originally posted by jinzin
He's not faster than Wolverine, nevermind Sabretooth.He's arguably a more skilled fighter than Sabretooth.. Arguably... just as it's arguable that Sabretooth is actually more skilled than he is in h2h combat.
Please, provide scans, proof, evidence. You think she can win, show us.
What is so hard about that?
There is no huge speed gap between Blade and Wolverine, and WOlverine has always been able to keep up with sabretooth in fights (sabretooth does have a speed advantage though).
Blade has been stated on panel to be adroit with every hand held weapon as well as a master martial artist, and ahs demonstrated his fighting prowess briefly.
People keep neglecting that Spitfire was blitzing Dracula as well, who is Blade's physical superior as well as the elder vampire.
I don't have a scanner or have the latter issues of MI:13 on my computer, I've stated her feats though, and especially in a wide open space where she doesn't need to engage in close quarter combat, she'll dismantle sabretooth.
Sabretooth can't do much short of decapitating Spitfire for the win can pretty much tear him apart before sabretooth can respond, she has the power behind her blows to tear of skulls and shatter blades.