Originally posted by Star428
...and again, it doesn't matter if he was blood-lusted because he was still hallucinating. WW fans can keep ignoring that all they want to but that's the reason why they'll never convince anyone who isn't a WW fanboy/girl or a Superman hater that she's in same league as him. He still outperformed her by far throughout the whole friggin' fight up until the very end. Oh, and of course the PIS moment when she was some how able to sneak up on him. Have to ask yourself, if she is in same category as him then why did she feel it necessary to hide from him lke a coward and sneak up on him?
So using speed and skill is a coward move? Especially when she wasn't there to kill or injure Superman (which is the reason she was holding back). Her main goal was to stop Max Lord.
Originally posted by SurturThe underlined part.
Well yes, and I still have to wonder what Superman was seeing when she threw her tiara. Was he seeing Doomsday throwing a rock or something? Or nothing at all? Or maybe to him he saw DD slashing his throat.
But stating that Superman was absolutely hindered due to hallucinations is a gross over-generalization of the facts of the Sacrifice arc.
A keener analysis of the events throughout Sacrifice reveals that Maxwell's mental powers caused Superman to see and react to all situations "strategic[ally]," sometimes "brilliant[ly]," despite being made to see different things at different times:
That was the pervasiveness and depth of Maxwell Lord's mental powers. They spent the several issues of the Sacrifice arc explaining that in detail and it was reinforced in the Wonder Woman fight itself.
It is certainly arguable that Superman could have performed better. But it is far from indisputable based on the actual facts. In the end, it should be clear that this was about as full a fight as we ever saw between classic Superman and Wonder Woman. It was not meant to be swept under the rug due to typical mind controlled heroes trope. The writers went out of their way explaining that. On-panel.
Except the fact that Superman was specifically stated to be hindered by seeing Doomsday killing Lois.
Before that all Maxwell showed to him was Brainiac or Darkseid making Lois a slave or showing JLA was controlled by Lord. In WW 219 he was not thinking straight.
At all.
Posting scans out of context like that is disingenuous at best and lying at worst.
But that's ODG for ya.
Greg Rucka himself said that Superman was out of his mind with grief and rage. He wasn't performing remotely at his best during his fight with Diana.
On the watchtower, it was a different scenario altogether, and was before all of that. He was still operating at least at some level of his true self.
...and why the **** is this even being discussed in this thread?
Originally posted by carver9
Seriously injure him.
Diana has no problem injuring Superman. She might not want to, but she'd know full well that she'd have to if it meant slowing him down.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Diana can be a top tier character AND be less powerful than Superman... ermm
But, she's not just slightly less powerful than Superman, -Pr-, but instead SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful. At least a tier below him. True top tiers are able to go toe-to-toe with a serious Clark on equal terms. They don't require some kind of handi-cap for Superman in order to have a realistic shot at beating him or even just stalemating him. Captain Marvel was able to go toe-to-toe with a mind-controlled non-holding back buffed Superman (who wasn't hallucinating; VERY IMPORTANT DETAIL THERE) for an entire comic and he was dishing out just as much punishment as he was receiving; unlike Diana in the Sacrifice fight. She was on the defensive practically the whole time and had to rely on a PIS-filled sneak attack in order to keep breathing. Of course, if Superman had not changed his mind about throwing or knocking her into the sun then she would never've had the chance to use such a cheap tactic. Lucky for her, Clark decided to make DD SUFFER instead of killing him, AGAIN.
If she was really in the same tier as characters like CM, BA, Bizarro, or Clark himself then she wouldn't have been knocked-out by a single punch from Superman during Sacrifice fight or had her wrist broken so casually. Do you really think any of those true top-tier characters I mentioned would've ever had either of those two things happen to them by another character who is in same tier as them? I could see an argument being made for someone in a higher tier doing it to them but not someone in same tier.
If WW was even remotely as powerful as Superman do you think she would've said to him in A League of One that "I knew that I couldn't beat you". If they were in same tier she wouldn't havesaid that. Just look at all their fights. He casually handles her in pretty much all of them in which he's not suffering some kind of handi-cap. Most of the time, he doesn't even consider her a threat to him. Like how he turned his back on her in "For Tomorrow", for example, after it was clear she was there to stop him. You think he ever would've done that to Black Adam or Captain Marvel? I think not. He never has and I doubt he ever will.
Oh, and LOL@ anyone who thinks that Superman hallucinating in Sacrifice was not a HUGE handi-cap for him. How the Hell does not knowing who you're actually fighting not an ENORMOUS disadvantage? That's the biggest crock of BS I've ever heard on the forum. All one has to do is look closely at scans of their fight to see how if negatively affected him. He clearly thought he was fighting someone MUCH bigger, MUCH less skilled, and who didn't have a ranged weapon that could do what Diana's Tiara did to him.
Originally posted by Star428
But, she's not just slightly less powerful than Superman, -Pr-, but instead SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful. True top tiers are able to go toe-to-toe with a serious Clark on equal terms. They don't require some kind of handi-cap for Superman in order to have a realistic shot at beating him or even just stalemating him. Captain Marvel was able to go toe-to-toe with a mind-controlled non-holding back buffed Superman (who wasn't hallucinating; VERY IMPORTANT DETAIL THERE) for an entire comic and he was dishing out just as much punishment as he was receiving; unlike Diana in the Sacrifice fight. She was on the defensive practically the whole time and had to rely on a PIS-filled sneak attack in order to keep breathing. Of course, if Superman had not changed his mind about throwing or knocking her into the sun then she would never've had the chance to use such a cheap tactic.If she was really in the same tier as characters like CM, BA, Bizarro, or Clark himself then she wouldn't have been knocked-out by a single punch from Superman during Sacrifice fight or had her wrist broken so casually. Do you really think any of those true top-tier characters I mentioned would've ever had either of those two things happen to them by another character who is in same tier as them? I could see an argument being made for someone in a higher tier doing it to them but not someone in same tier.
If WW was even remotely as powerful as Superman do you think she would've said to him in A League of One that "I knew that I couldn't beat you". If they were in same tier she wouldn't havesaid that. Just look at all their fights. He casually handles her in pretty much all of them in which he's not suffering some kind of handi-cap. Most of the time, he doesn't even consider her a threat to him. Like how he turned his back on her in "For Tomorrow", for example, after it was clear she was there to stop him. You think he ever would've done that to Black Adam or Captain Marvel? I think not. He never has and I doubt he ever will.
She can be in the same tier as him without being able to beat him more often than not...
And breaking a wrist doesn't mean anything.
Originally posted by ODG
The underlined part.But stating that Superman was absolutely hindered due to hallucinations is a gross over-generalization of the facts of the Sacrifice arc.
A keener analysis of the events throughout Sacrifice reveals that Maxwell's mental powers caused Superman to see and react to all situations "strategic[ally]," sometimes "brilliant[ly]," despite being made to see different things at different times:
That was the pervasiveness and depth of Maxwell Lord's mental powers. They spent the several issues of the Sacrifice arc explaining that in detail and it was reinforced in the Wonder Woman fight itself.
It is certainly arguable that Superman could have performed better. But it is far from indisputable based on the actual facts. In the end, it should be clear that this was about as full a fight as we ever saw between classic Superman and Wonder Woman. It was not meant to be swept under the rug due to typical mind controlled heroes trope. The writers went out of their way explaining that. On-panel.
This pretty much sums it up imo. Good post ODG.
Originally posted by Star428
LOL. Diana has never "gotten the best" of Superman. You poor WW fans have told yourselves that lie so many times that you've convinced yourselves it's true. Too bad you won't ever convince anyone who doesn't look thru biased WW-colored glasses or anti-Superman glasses. How many times do we have to go thru this?1. That was a handi-capped Superman (as in he was hallucinating and didn't know who he was fighting so didn't know that object thrown at him was a tiara).
2. That was only a "technical win" for Diana as Clark looked much better throughout the rest of fight even though he was hallucinating.
I know it's hard for you bullheaded Diana fans to accept this but she's a clear tier below him. Hell, she even admitted to him in A League of One that "I know I cannot beat you". That was a WW book too, btw. But I'm sure all u WW fanboys/girls will make up some lame excuse like she didn't really mean it or something.
Quit drinking the kool-aid. WW has never beaten or even come close to beating Superman in a fair fight. She is not a "top-tier" character.
LMAO at being dubbed a Diana fan!! Mary Sue can kick rocks.
Originally posted by ODG
The underlined part.But stating that Superman was absolutely hindered due to hallucinations is a gross over-generalization of the facts of the Sacrifice arc.
A keener analysis of the events throughout Sacrifice reveals that Maxwell's mental powers caused Superman to see and react to all situations "strategic[ally]," sometimes "brilliant[ly]," despite being made to see different things at different times:
That was the pervasiveness and depth of Maxwell Lord's mental powers. They spent the several issues of the Sacrifice arc explaining that in detail and it was reinforced in the Wonder Woman fight itself.
It is certainly arguable that Superman could have performed better. But it is far from indisputable based on the actual facts. In the end, it should be clear that this was about as full a fight as we ever saw between classic Superman and Wonder Woman. It was not meant to be swept under the rug due to typical mind controlled heroes trope. The writers went out of their way explaining that. On-panel.
The problem comes down to one thing: I'm pretty sure the comic or Wonder Woman herself claimed she was HOLDING BACK against him., This is why it makes no sense to me unless I just am not remembering correctly. That line of her trying to say she is holding back, for me, makes it all weird. I don't hate Wonder Woman, I don't think she isn't top tier because she is. But it is weird to me to suggest Wonder Woman could survive against a bloodlusted "brilliant" Superman while holding back.
It's also hard to talk about his brilliant strategy when he gets ear bashed while specifically using super hearing to locate this person. That doesn't sound like Superman fighting at full capacity. One minute he is easily crushing her bones and the next minute he's getting ear bonked. I'm not saying that in the fight sequence the bone squeeze happened directly before the ear bonk, I'm just saying the fight went all over the place.
Hell, I've heard even the artists have a problem with the fight when they go to space. Since they go to the sun, but the artist meant it to be Venus or maybe it was the opposite. But I know some stuff has been said by the people who made this fight. Something to do with Venus and the sun, maybe this has already been mentioned.
But unless any bones or whatever WW might have in her neck are for some reason a lot more durable then the bones in her arm/wrist then I don't see why he didn't just reach out and crush her throat and be done with it if we're suggesting he was using some great tactics, etc. I'm guessing her windpipe and all that jazz aren't massively more durable then the rest of her.
the bit about her holding back is true, she did say it:
http://s11.postimg.org/tm8qepaer/wonderwoman1_1.jpg
i always took it to mean that she was intentionally not trying to do him permanent injury, something that imo she could have done had she also been going for a kill.
