LOL. No, she still wasn't above him even with his handicap. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to grab her by her neck and take her to space while she couldn't do squat about it. If he hadn't changed his mind about throwing/knocking DD into the sun she would've been killed long before she got a chance to somehow sneak up on him and bash his ears or slit his throat with her tiara. The so-called "fight" would've been over in less than two minutes.
Originally posted by cdtm
1. Cap 7/10. The magic lightning fists is a relatively recent gimmick, but even before that most.fights were Caps to lose.2. Surfer 10/10
3. Probably Superman. Hal has the raw power, but the ring only works as fast as hunan thought, so speeds an issue. And I wouldn't bet against Supes in a contest of willpower.
crylaugh
Originally posted by carver9
This post doesn't make one bit of sense. Zod broke Superman jaw with a blitz...does that put Zod above Superman?
Originally posted by carver9
So how far would you put Zod above Superman?http://postimg.org/image/d8itv7ba9/
Also, he didn't casually break her arm, he was blood lusted. Do you know what casual mean?
baka
Originally posted by One-Punch
I thought the story went out of it's way to make it clear Superman was going all out.Wonder Woman says... "He thinks Lois is dead. He thinks Doomsday murdered her. He think's I'm Doomsday. Which means he's holding [b]nothing
back."
http://i.imgur.com/6O1lD4k.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/grCChNd.jpgHe also kind of does speed blitz her to the sun while HVing her face. It takes 8 minutes for light to go from Earth to the sun. Superman brought Diana there in a single page.
Here's the fight from Superman's point of view:
http://imgur.com/a/i8fmr^It shows just how blood-lusted Superman was. According to the scans, he wanted to kill Diana so badly he didn't even care about innocent people.
Superman says... "All I could think about was how much I hated him...how he had to pay...nothing else mattered...not the future, not myself...not even the innocent..." [/B]
Your point would have some merit if he had punched her more than once. Its not like he was punching her down and she kept getting back.
He missed all his attacks as he was fighting a larger opponent in his mind. At one point he was HVing clouds while she was right in front of him while he broke her wrist.
Superman was seriously handicapped in that fight. Wonder Woman even in that mindset could only slow him down and break his mental control after slicing his throat with a magical weapon.
FFS, his punches were oneshotting her and breaking her bones. Her punches didn't even turn his head. That's how large the gap between them was.
srsly
Thank u, abhi for providing that scan. WW fans seem to ignore that he was clearly aiming at an opponent much taller than Diana. If he had known the real size of his opponent he could've easily melted her face off. Also, there was at least one panel in the fight where he missed Diana with a punch because he thought his opponent was MUCH bigger. Of course, Diana fans love to tell themselves that he missed because of her skill or because she is so-called "faster" (LOL) than him. How anyone can possibly think that Clark hallucinating there wasn't a big disadvantage boggles the mind.
The devil is in the details and Diana fanboys and girls love to conveniently overlook them in their desperation to prove she is in same tier as him.
Originally posted by One-Punch👆
I thought the story went out of it's way to make it clear Superman was going all out.Wonder Woman says... "He thinks Lois is dead. He thinks Doomsday murdered her. He think's I'm Doomsday. Which means he's holding [b]nothing
back."
http://i.imgur.com/6O1lD4k.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/grCChNd.jpgHe also kind of does speed blitz her to the sun while HVing her face. It takes 8 minutes for light to go from Earth to the sun. Superman brought Diana there in a single page.
Here's the fight from Superman's point of view:
http://imgur.com/a/i8fmr^It shows just how blood-lusted Superman was. According to the scans, he wanted to kill Diana so badly he didn't even care about innocent people.
Superman says... "All I could think about was how much I hated him...how he had to pay...nothing else mattered...not the future, not myself...not even the innocent..." [/B]
Originally posted by Star428
Thank u, abhi for providing that scan. WW fans seem to ignore that he was clearly aiming at an opponent much taller than Diana. If he had known the real size of his opponent he could've easily melted her face off. Also, there was at least one panel in the fight where he missed Diana with a punch because he thought his opponent was MUCH bigger. Of course, Diana fans love to tell themselves that he missed because of her skill or because she is so-called "faster" (LOL) than him. How anyone can possibly think that Clark hallucinating there wasn't a big disadvantage boggles the mind.The devil is in the details and Diana fanboys and girls love to conveniently overlook them in their desperation to prove she is in same tier as him.
He heat visioned her face from Earth all the way to the sun and knew he was doing it. You're full of excuses.
Originally posted by carver9
He heat visioned her face from Earth all the way to the sun and knew he was doing it. You're full of excuses.
Let us just settle this, Superman vs Wonder Woman, both going all out, Superman doesn't have any kryptonite rings or magic weapons, just her own power and skill versus Superman's own power and skill. Superman is not seeing her as Doomsday, and is not fighting like a moron.
What is the outcome? This is pre DCnU versions I'm asking about, just to be clear.
Originally posted by Surtur
I know, but she basically should need to be going all out just to *survive* to me, so being careful not to hurt him makes it sound like..she is normally at a power level above him such that she can take a full assault while holding back as to not hurt him.
i get what you're saying, i just disagree with your logic. the fact that she was holding back and survived needn't imply she is more powerful imo. it simply means that when given an opportunity (which her skill and her weapons afford her) she didn't go for a killing blow, or some type of blow that would significantly injure him. he's def more powerful, no one would question that, but her skill and speed gave her openings others (maybe even more powerful than she) don't usually get against him. and of course her weapons, especially the tiara, also gave her an edge that helped her survive. i think the battle was actually a pretty accurate portrayal of the 2 relative to one another. her speed, skill and weapons compensated for his overall power advantage. he's just lucky she wasn't packing her sword.... 🙂
Originally posted by leonidas
i get what you're saying, i just disagree with your logic. the fact that she was holding back and survived needn't imply she is more powerful imo. it simply means that when given an opportunity (which her skill and her weapons afford her) she didn't go for a killing blow, or some type of blow that would significantly injure him. he's def more powerful, no one would question that, but her skill and speed gave her openings others (maybe even more powerful than she) don't usually get against him. and of course her weapons, especially the tiara, also gave her an edge that helped her survive. i think the battle was actually a pretty accurate portrayal of the 2 relative to one another. her speed, skill and weapons compensated for his overall power advantage. he's just lucky she wasn't packing her sword.... 🙂
So do you think she could defeat Superman one on one under normal circumstances?
Originally posted by One-Punch
I thought the story went out of it's way to make it clear Superman was going all out.Wonder Woman says... "He thinks Lois is dead. He thinks Doomsday murdered her. He think's I'm Doomsday. Which means he's holding [b]nothing
back."
http://i.imgur.com/6O1lD4k.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/grCChNd.jpgHe also kind of does speed blitz her to the sun while HVing her face. It takes 8 minutes for light to go from Earth to the sun. Superman brought Diana there in a single page.
Here's the fight from Superman's point of view:
http://imgur.com/a/i8fmr^It shows just how blood-lusted Superman was. According to the scans, he wanted to kill Diana so badly he didn't even care about innocent people.
Superman says... "All I could think about was how much I hated him...how he had to pay...nothing else mattered...not the future, not myself...not even the innocent..." [/B]
Superman isn't the Hulk. He was bloodlusted, yes, and he was trying to kill Diana, that's true, but, and it's a big but, Superman bloodlusted is not on the same level as the guy that tore through Imperiex Probes like tissue paper or spanked the Elite.
Superman bloodlusted isn't Superman at his best. People can make the distinction without it meaning that they're shitting all over Wonder Woman.
Well, some people can... You've seen how this board is.
Originally posted by leonidas
i get what you're saying, i just disagree with your logic. the fact that she was holding back and survived needn't imply she is more powerful imo. it simply means that when given an opportunity (which her skill and her weapons afford her) she didn't go for a killing blow, or some type of blow that would significantly injure him. he's def more powerful, no one would question that, but her skill and speed gave her openings others (maybe even more powerful than she) don't usually get against him. and of course her weapons, especially the tiara, also gave her an edge that helped her survive. i think the battle was actually a pretty accurate portrayal of the 2 relative to one another. her speed, skill and weapons compensated for his overall power advantage. he's just lucky she wasn't packing her sword.... 🙂
I agreed with you right up until that last line. Well, second last.
Originally posted by leonidas
no, not under normal circumstances. with cis off, and all her weapons (axe or sword) i think she could get a split. with cis on, she'd only manage maybe 3/10 imo. she's had a couple pretty good fights against him though. i posted them in her respect thread a little while ago.
That was a pretty good fight too.
mmm
Originally posted by -Pr-Writer interviews are inadmissible on these forums. So if you have any on-panel evidence that Superman wasn't remotely operating near his best, I'd be interested in seeing it. Because the evidence from the actual fights where Superman was under Maxwell Lord's influence show the exact opposite. All on-panel.
Greg Rucka himself said that Superman was out of his mind with grief and rage. He wasn't performing remotely at his best during his fight with Diana.
Originally posted by -Pr-Reread Sacrifice. Particularly the comics that came before the climactic Wonder Woman fight. During his multi-tiered hallucinations when assaulting Batman on the JLA satellite, he was mad with grief and rage because he saw Lois and/or others dying (Jimmy, Perry, etc.). It's how Maxwell Lord was pushing him to kill Batman, by making him try to kill Braniac, Darkseid and Ruin. So it was actually the exact same scenario: pushing Superman's grief and rage to point where he'd be willing to kill. J'onn's analysis concerns those events:
On the watchtower, it was a different scenario altogether, and was before all of that. He was still operating at least at some level of his true self.
As I said before, a keener analysis of the events of Sacrifice reveals that Maxwell's mental powers caused Superman to see and react to all situations "strategic[ally]," sometimes "brilliant[ly]," despite being made to see different things at different times.
Writer interviews are allowed when they add to or back up what's on panel. When they contradict it. that's the conflict.
Superman's best is better than we saw during Sacrifice. His best feats all involve him not just out-punching, but out-thinking his opponents. Unless his best somehow dipped dramatically for a second, the more likely scenario is that his mental condition being so out of sorts is what put him at a disadvantage.
I don't need to re-read Sacrifice. I've read it far more than I want to already.
How Superman acted when he was trying to kill Batman was different to how he acted when he fought the League. It was different to how he fought Lord, because Lord kept changing things up.
Originally posted by -Pr-Considering most writer interviews are apologist in nature and the scenes in question already could go either way, insisting some random writer interview (that we haven't even been given a link to) automatically cements one position in the extreme is, quite frankly, bullsh1t. Really. It's bullsh1t.
Writer interviews are allowed when they add to or back up what's on panel. When they contradict it. that's the conflict.
But go ahead and show me instances where Superman wasn't even remotely operating near his best throughout the final Wonder Woman fight. Or any fight he had under Maxwell Lord's control for that matter, so this random writer interview -- that suddenly is admissible -- can back up what you're saying.
Originally posted by -Pr-Superman was out-thinking his opponents throughout Sacrifice under Maxwell Lord's mental tampering. J'onn actually states it outloud and we see it multiple times. But your dillemma may lie in the fact that you only ever think Superman can ever fight at his best or near his best if he fights purely strategically instead of just cutting loose with his full power. And since you said before that he wasn't operating remotely at his best, you think that just cutting loose with his full power with a direct assault causes him to perform waaaaay below his best. In which case, prove that.
Superman's best is better than we saw during Sacrifice. His best feats all involve him not just out-punching, but out-thinking his opponents.
Because I think that's 100% wrong. And I am prepared to prove so.
Originally posted by -Pr-You said he wasn't even remotely at his best, so if you want to scale back that position, and say he was just at a disadvantage, just say it. Because then we can discuss how Wonder Woman was at a disadvantage by holding back, trying to get to Maxwell Lord, and fighting him near the Sun and analyze how that all balances out. Unless we want to conveniently ignore looking at it from both sides fairly.
Unless his best somehow dipped dramatically for a second, the more likely scenario is that his mental condition being so out of sorts is what put him at a disadvantage.
Originally posted by -Pr-You seem to be confusing the battle against the Justice League with his assaults on Batman and Wonder Woman. So maybe you do need to re-read it as nothing I've posted even references his fight against the Justice League... yet you keep bringing it up???
I don't need to re-read Sacrifice. I've read it far more than I want to already.How Superman acted when he was trying to kill Batman was different to how he acted when he fought the League. It was different to how he fought Lord, because Lord kept changing things up.
Actually, what I posted was to prove that Superman was fighting to kill with grief/revenge against Batman and Wonder Woman. And he thought he was fighting a supervillain like Braniac, Darkseid or Doomsday who had murdered his wife and/or friends. Which is why they were exactly the same scenarios. And Wonder Woman was involved in both. And on-panel, a character actually analyzes the first fight and concludes Superman was acting "strategic[ally]," sometimes "brilliant[ly]." Which is true when you actually look at what he does in each of the fights. Which is basically the exact opposite of what you're trying to insist.
The Rucka interview has been posted multiple times on the board. If you don't believe me, that's fine. I took a quick look, and found a link to a copy of it here:
http://comicus.forumfree.org/index.php?&showtopic=14657&st=0&
He actually addresses several claims you made about Superman, too. It's up to you whether you want to take them as proof or not.
And fyi, there's nothing sudden about it, but please, continue to be so bloody hostile for no reason.
Eh, I'd be willing to say I exaggerated by using the word remotely. I still don't think he was that close to his best though, and we have seen his very best, or close to it, several times in comics. The one thing all of said "best" showings, are that he uses his brain. He fights using brains and brawn; he's less than he should be if he's using only one, imo.
I did mix up those two fights at first, that's true. It's why I so heavily edited my post.
Superman did fight with grief/rage to try to kill Batman/Diana, yes. I never disputed that.
I would ask you this, then: If Superman was at his best when he fought Diana during Sacrifice, then how do you reconcile that with his higher/better feats that I would say are him at his best?
Also, seriously, do you have to be so damn snide? Seriously?
Originally posted by -Pr-I never gave two sh1ts about writer interviews as per form rules, but considering that you do here, a lot of that interview actually reinforces the major points that I've been saying, e.g., "the effort Max had to put into this was tremendous – and unique. It’s not as if he left a little door in Superman’s head saying, ‘Enter’ so that the telepath du jour can jump behind the wheel and play the DCU’s version of Being John Malkovich," "you have to get Superman to such an emotionally distraught and temporarily deranged state that he’s willing to pull off all of the governors that he lives with every second of every day, to get him to the point where he’s going after someone with everything that he’s got," "the fight is between two opponents whoa re at very cross purposes – Kal is hitting her with everything he has, and Diana has to do everything she can do to survive that, and move on from that, and get to Max."
The Rucka interview has been posted multiple times on the board. If you don't believe me, that's fine. I took a quick look, and found a link to a copy of it here:http://comicus.forumfree.org/index.php?&showtopic=14657&st=0&
He actually addresses several claims you made about Superman, too. It's up to you whether you want to take them as proof or not.
Originally posted by -Pr-Pretty sudden to me. As I'm suddenly having to confront what I had always thought for years, was explicitly against the forum rules. Random writer interviews.
And fyi, there's nothing sudden about it, but please, continue to be so bloody hostile for no reason.
Originally posted by -Pr-I've always said there isn't a single way to fight at your best. Thor can fight his best by using Mjolnir's plot device powers or just going balls-to-the-wall. So prove to me that when Superman lets his power (and his powers) fully loose in a direct, no nonsense approach, that it falls well below his best. An approach he's used successfully against DoS Doomsday, against Darkseid in Superman/Batman: Apocalypse, against the first Imperiex Probe, against the multiple Imperiex Probes, etc.
Eh, I'd be willing to say I exaggerated by using the word remotely. I still don't think he was that close to his best though, and we have seen his very best, or close to it, several times in comics. The one thing all of said "best" showings, are that he uses his brain. He fights using brains and brawn; he's less than he should be if he's using only one, imo.I did mix up those two fights at first, that's true. It's why I so heavily edited my post.
Superman did fight with grief/rage to try to kill Batman/Diana, yes. I never disputed that.
I would ask you this, then: If Superman was at his best when he fought Diana during Sacrifice, then how do you reconcile that with his higher/better feats that I would say are him at his best?
This shouldn't be a huge contrived discussion, because Superman has few fights where he goes full-out direct assault on his opponent, let alone killing (trying to kill) his opponent.
Originally posted by -Pr-It's sourced from now having to dignify a random writer interview from a French comic discussion forum. Forgive me.
Also, seriously, do you have to be so damn snide? Seriously?
