........vs Superman without his weaknesses

What is being debated here?

A)Diana can slow Superman down.
That's it. Not only has she's admitted it.
That was the reason she killed Max!
Because it was Max going down, or Earth.
And we know this, because in Booster when he changed time to where Max wasn't killed, they all lost to Superman. Everyone.

B)Mind controlled fights aren't an example of a character fighting at capacity on the forum.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, we all know that. Your point is? That somehow that's an attack which constitutes to a KO, but wonder woman using a low blow is somehow forgotten.

Funny how Superman's aim is perfectly fine when he did all the above. If his aim was so hindered by the TP why was he able to land the above attacks? Diana's neck is pretty skinny; grabbing it at super speed takes precision.

He wasn't trying to kill her. He was trying to make her suffer. If by tanked you mean she got burned to the bone and needed to eye rake him with low blowing him, yeah, you're right. Tanking in stride? LMAO.

Haha, what? I posted the whole sequence. He was already HVing in whatwhat direction seeing how he was again in the same position one panel later when there is no palm strike to deflect his head.

Did you forget how to read comic panels in chronological order? You read panels from left to right. Here this should help even you:

You left out (1) and (2) showing Superman aiming directly at Diana with his HV, and her palming his head upward. You only showed (4) and tried to pass it off as Superman purposely aiming at clouds. That's pure BS and you know it.

Either you don't know how to read comics, or you're outright lying. Which is it?

How about the time he is looking at her while she is charging at him in a straight line while his HV goes above her shoulder? What's your excuse? In the very scan his punch is going above her shoulder while he is grabbing her hand with nothing to parry or

You're literally blind at this point of you can't see Superman blindly swinging in that scan and missing her. WTF? She Palmer his head in that panel. He broke her hand in the next panel and was still looking above her with nothing holding his head or forcing it. I like how you forget the very next page.

Did you see how she ducked his punch? Or the time she just barely dodged his HV? Or the time she parried his punch? Or the time she palmed his head upward deflecting his HV?All of these attacks would have hit her directly if she hadn't dodged or parried them.

Superman missing his attacks had nothing to do with Superman seeing Diana as Doomsday; it had everything to do with Diana being a skilled warrior dodging and parrying his attacks.You're the one who's blind if you can't see this unequivocal fact.

No amount of your low-balling of Wonder Woman will change this.

[Who is palming his head now? Why don't you post the very previous quote?" What's Max making him see now? " It was a classic mental control. Nothing else. It was later retconned in Booster Gold that Max could not force Superman to kill. So yeah, there goes that theory. If any of her physical attacks had any effect on him you might have a point that she was handicapped and would've done better. She did everything from kryptonite to low blows to eye rakes to suckershotting him with indestructible bracelets but it did absolutely nothing to him.

Yeah, you're just parroting everyone who thinks Superman oneshotting Diana, breaking her bones casually with just squeezing and basically shrugging everything she could throw at him is a low showing.

You think she had no effect on him? How about making him scream in pain with his ears bleeding? Using skill to knock him around and kicking him into the ground? Or slicing his throat open? If you think she had no effect on him, then you're delusional.

He never one-shot her. She blacked out for only an instant. Keyword is INSTANT. That doesn't mean he one-shot her, as shown when she got right back up and started fighting him as soon as he arrived back on Earth.

Or it somehow lowers Superman's stock. It's not like Dracula was bitchslapping mindcontrolled Surfer. Or Iron Man fought him to a double KO when he was mindcontrolled.

In fact it's a far better showing than most heralds get while mindcontrolled. Suck on that. [/B]

Look how insecure you are about Superman. You have to go as far as:
- Low-ball the crap out of Wonder Woman
- Make stuff up without any evidence
- Deny Superman was trying to kill Diana
- Crop your scans and leave out context

All because you can't accept the fact that Diana did well against a blood-lusted Superman. It happened. Just accept it. It doesn't lower Superman's stock at all, unless you think Diana is a weakling.

Originally posted by Juntai
What is being debated here?

A)Diana can slow Superman down.
That's it. Not only has she's admitted it.
That was the reason she killed Max!
Because it was Max going down, or Earth.
And we know this, because in Booster when he changed time to where Max wasn't killed, they all lost to Superman. Everyone.

B)Mind controlled fights aren't an example of a character fighting at capacity on the forum.

Of course not. But it's entertaining seeing certain fanboys and fangirls trying desperately to make an argument that they are valid showings because they have nothing better to prove their ridiculous claims with.

Originally posted by One-Punch
The point is you said Superman only hit her once, and you were proven wrong. You ignored the part where he choked her neck with both hands, HVed her directly in the face, punched her to Earth, froze her, and crushed her wrist.

Yes, he punched her once. You know the attack which koed her.

I will like to see where he punched her again though? Burning her face or crushing her wrist isn't going to ko her.

Funny how Superman's aim is perfectly fine when he did all the above. If his aim was so hindered by the TP why was he able to land the above attacks? Diana's neck is pretty skinny; grabbing it at super speed takes precision.

You didn't post the whole sequence, you posted a [b]cropped scan. You left out Diana palming his head upward which happened right before your scan of Superman shooting HV upwards.

Did you forget how to read comic panels in chronological order? You read panels from left to right. Here this should help even you:

You left out (1) and (2) showing Superman aiming directly at Diana with his HV, and her palming his head upward. You only showed (4) and tried to pass it off as Superman purposely aiming at clouds. That's pure BS and you know it.

Even you can't be this stupid.

Either you don't know how to read comics, or you're outright lying. Which is it?

Isn't it obvious? She dodged it; just like she dodged several of his attacks throughout their entire fight.

In fact the whole scene is Diana using her skill to dodge and parry Superman's attacks.

crylaugh

This is a new low even for you.

Did you see how she ducked his punch? Or the time she just barely dodged his HV? Or the time she parried his punch? Or the time she palmed his head upward deflecting his HV?All of these attacks would have hit her directly if she hadn't dodged or parried them.

Superman missing his attacks had nothing to do with Superman seeing Diana as Doomsday; it had everything to do with Diana being a skilled warrior dodging and parrying his attacks.You're the one who's blind if you can't see this unequivocal fact.

And how would you explain Superman missing her heartbeat while she is standing right behind him? Or shooting HV her shoulder? Maybe she dodged his superhearing too? Right?

No amount of your low-balling of Wonder Woman will change this.

I've never seen so much BS in a single paragraph. Yes he was trying to kill her, he stated he wanted her dead, and Diana stated he was holding nothing back.

Retconned away.

You think she had no effect on him? How about making him scream in pain with his ears bleeding?

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Wonder%20Woman/WW%20v2%20212%20-%20blind%20%20vs%20JLA/?action=view&current=page06.jpg

Using skill to knock him around and kicking him into the ground?

Or slicing his throat open? If you think she had no effect on him, then you're delusional.

A normal human can slice his throat open with a magical knife.

😬

He never one-shot her. She blacked out for only an instant. Keyword is INSTANT. That doesn't mean he one-shot her, as shown when she got right back up and started fighting him as soon as he arrived back on Earth.

An outside element. She already lost the fight at that moment.

Look how insecure you are about Superman. You have to go as far as:
- Low-ball the crap out of Wonder Woman
- Make stuff up without any evidence
- Deny Superman was trying to kill Diana
- Crop your scans and leave out context

Haha, this is just golden. But seriously, how much do you hate Superman to go to such lengths to lowball him when he is mindcontrolled.

All because you can't accept the fact that Diana did well against a blood-lusted Superman. It happened. Just accept it. It doesn't lower Superman's stock at all, unless you think Diana is a weakling. [/B]

She didn't. She would've died in a pure physical fight.

I guess the poor fool thinks Superman not dodging her tiara had nothing to do with Clark thinking she was DD either, abhi. LOL. Superman should've known DD was wielding a razor sharp magical tiara that could seriously injure him. 🙄

And before someone brings up him dodging the lasso that's because Max told him to dodge it. Max knew that her lassoing Superman would either break his mental control over him or take him out of fight without anyone dying which is last thing he wanted to happen. Anyone who isn't blind can understand that by reading the part where Diana says "It's like he knows what I'm going to do before I do it" after she misses him with lasso.

It is always the usual posters who think they know everything about Superman when clearly they don't most of the times they create arguments of ignorance and when that does not work they just completely ignore evidence or nitpick at feats and or keep moving the goal post.

People who know about Superman have read a lot of comics I mean Superman is one of the most published characters in comics. There is a reason why they think Superman could do this or that.

The detractors eh... Not so much. They are not superman experts, they might have their opinions and they are entitled to it. But 99% of the time they are wrong, because they form an argument based on ignorance and if that does not work they nitpick or ignore evidence.

Also Juntai said It best. Fighting mind controlled does not even fall under the forum rules so the detractors should drop their flawed argument once and for all.

Originally posted by One-Punch
The point is you said Superman only hit her once, and you were proven wrong. You ignored the part where he choked her neck with both hands, HVed her directly in the face, punched her to Earth, froze her, and crushed her wrist.

Funny how Superman's aim is perfectly fine when he did all the above. If his aim was so hindered by the TP why was he able to land the above attacks? Diana's neck is pretty skinny; grabbing it at super speed takes precision.

You're in denial if you think Superman wasn't trying to kill Diana. He outright stated he wanted her dead. Making her suffer and killing her aren't mutually exclusive. Nice false dichotomy though.

You didn't post the whole sequence, you posted a [b]cropped scan. You left out Diana palming his head upward which happened right before your scan of Superman shooting HV upwards.

Did you forget how to read comic panels in chronological order? You read panels from left to right. Here this should help even you:

You left out (1) and (2) showing Superman aiming directly at Diana with his HV, and her palming his head upward. You only showed (4) and tried to pass it off as Superman purposely aiming at clouds. That's pure BS and you know it.

Either you don't know how to read comics, or you're outright lying. Which is it?

Isn't it obvious? She dodged it; just like she dodged several of his attacks throughout their entire fight. In fact the whole scene is Diana using her skill to dodge and parry Superman's attacks.

Did you see how she ducked his punch? Or the time she just barely dodged his HV? Or the time she parried his punch? Or the time she palmed his head upward deflecting his HV?All of these attacks would have hit her directly if she hadn't dodged or parried them.

Superman missing his attacks had nothing to do with Superman seeing Diana as Doomsday; it had everything to do with Diana being a skilled warrior dodging and parrying his attacks.You're the one who's blind if you can't see this unequivocal fact.

No amount of your low-balling of Wonder Woman will change this.

I've never seen so much BS in a single paragraph. Yes he was trying to kill her, he stated he wanted her dead, and Diana stated he was holding nothing back.

You think she had no effect on him? How about making him scream in pain with his ears bleeding? Using skill to knock him around and kicking him into the ground? Or slicing his throat open? If you think she had no effect on him, then you're delusional.

He never one-shot her. She blacked out for only an instant. Keyword is INSTANT. That doesn't mean he one-shot her, as shown when she got right back up and started fighting him as soon as he arrived back on Earth.

😂

Look how insecure you are about Superman. You have to go as far as:
- Low-ball the crap out of Wonder Woman
- Make stuff up without any evidence
- Deny Superman was trying to kill Diana
- Crop your scans and leave out context

All because you can't accept the fact that Diana did well against a blood-lusted Superman. It happened. Just accept it. It doesn't lower Superman's stock at all, unless you think Diana is a weakling. [/B]

Well supported and easy to follow solid argument here.

Guys, Sacrifice isn't relevant to this thread, regardless of what side of the fence you fall on. I know I've been guilty of falling in to the trap of talking about it, which is why I'm going to be nice and suggest people move on to something more relevant to the thread.

Thanks.

Originally posted by lawest9
Supes weaknesses that are exploiterable are removed for these bloodlusted fights.

1. Captain Marvel without the magic weakness.

2. Silver Surfer without the red sun and krytonite weaknesses

3. Green Lantern (Hal) same as fight 2

This is current regular Superman, how does he fare in these battles?

1. Superman wins. He is better in every way with extra powers (especially hv and freeze breath).
2. Superman wins. Better combat speed and more likely to drop Surfer with a series of blows than Surfer dropping him with blasts. Surfer wouldn't have time to do any worthwhile offensive attacks other than blasting. Surfer would have to fight more defensive to make this fight hard. Any overly aggression would result in being open for a fist to the head or an acute dose of Hv. Supermans hv is both concussive and hot. Resistance against stars heat doesn't prove resistance against the hv's heat since the hv can reach temperatures far hotter than cores of stars (capable of penetrating kryptonian beings who are just as durable as Surfer and also receive their power from Suns too).
3. Superman wins. He is significantly faster and more powerful. He rips through constructs and is capable of blitzing Hal.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
It is always the usual posters who think they know everything about Superman when clearly they don't most of the times they create arguments of ignorance and when that does not work they just completely ignore evidence or nitpick at feats and or keep moving the goal post.

People who know about Superman have read a lot of comics I mean Superman is one of the most published characters in comics. There is a reason why they think Superman could do this or that.

The detractors eh... Not so much. They are not superman experts, they might have their opinions and they are entitled to it. But 99% of the time they are wrong, because they form an argument based on ignorance and if that does not work they nitpick or ignore evidence.

Also Juntai said It best. Fighting mind controlled does not even fall under the forum rules so the detractors should drop their flawed argument once and for all.

One thing about this most recent post of yours, Salsa.

It holds nearly equally true if, wherever you have the word "Superman", you substitute "Wonder Woman".

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
One thing about this most recent post of yours, Salsa.

It holds nearly equally true if, wherever you have the word "Superman", you substitute "Wonder Woman".

"Nearly equally" is a tad too much.

It is easier to follow/read the adventures of a hero who appears only once a month on a comic ( maybe twice if he/she is popular) than to follow and read all the feats and adventures of heroes like Superman, Batman or Spiderman.

I mean this heroes appear in 5 or 6 comics a month regularly.
Superman on the 90's IIRC was on 7 comics a month with out counting guest appearances.

Fans of Superman can barelly keep track of all his adventures when they read ALL of his publications

We have those guys who read a lot of superman telling us what he might or might no be able to do.

Then we have the detractors who apparently only read superman scans posted on sites like this one and try to make and argument based on ignorance. (I remember one time I had a person saying that red sun radiation hurts kryptonians imagine his surprise when he found out that kryptonians used to live under a red sun but the things people will say in order to defend their argument of ignorance is amusing)

I believe that reading or being informed on a character that only appears once a montn a comic is way easier than to keep track of Superman, batman or spiderman.

The sacrifice fight does not fall under the rules of the forum. He is being mind controlled and not at the best of his capabilities. Sobthat argument should not even being used here and WW is not even on this thread.

I guess you will agree that following the feats of WW it will be easier than following the feats of Superman or Batman so "nearly equally" is a tad bit to exagerated by a rate of 6/2

With the amount of comics it will take you to follow all the stories of superman, batman or Spiderman in a month you could read thor, silver surfer, hulk, avengers , wonder woman and still have a book to spare.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
One thing about this most recent post of yours, Salsa.

It holds nearly equally true if, wherever you have the word "Superman", you substitute "Wonder Woman".

🙄

No, it's doesn't.

Originally posted by Star428
🙄

No, it's doesn't.

Sorry, typo.

It doesn't.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

It is easier to follow/read the adventures of a hero who appears only once a month on a comic ( maybe twice if he/she is popular) than to follow and read all the feats and adventures of heroes like Superman, Batman or Spiderman.

I mean this heroes appear in 5 or 6 comics a month regularly.
Superman on the 90's IIRC was on 7 comics a month with out counting guest appearances.

Fans of Superman can barely keep track of all his adventures when they read ALL of his publications

Okay.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I believe that reading or being informed on a character that only appears once a month a comic is way easier than to keep track of Superman, batman or spiderman.

With the amount of comics it will take you to follow all the stories of superman, batman or Spiderman in a month you could read thor, silver surfer, hulk, avengers , wonder woman and still have a book to spare.

Okay.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

We have those guys who read a lot of superman telling us what he might or might no be able to do.

Okay.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Then we have the detractors who apparently only read superman scans posted on sites like this one and try to make and argument based on ignorance. (I remember one time I had a person saying that red sun radiation hurts kryptonians imagine his surprise when he found out that kryptonians used to live under a red sun but the things people will say in order to defend their argument of ignorance is amusing)

Okay!

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I guess you will agree that following the feats of WW it will be easier than following the feats of Superman or Batman so "nearly equally" is a tad bit too exaggerated by a rate of 6/2

NO.

Because there are several problems with your reasoning.

I'll cover just two for now in the interest of time.
(I'll give more later if time permits and/or you respond to this post.)

The first problem with your reasoning is that you seem to be subscribing to the fallacy that, because Superman has more published adventures than anyone else, he has more feats than anyone else, and THEREFORE, on a forum where feats carry a great deal of weight, Superman should automatically win.

This does not work. I think you would agree that, due to his long history, Superman has more adventures and feats on the printed page than, say, Marvel Comics' Odin.

Would that mean, then, that, if Superman and Odin fought, Superman should win?

Another problem with your line of reasoning is assuming that all of these extra adventures Superman has per month grants Superman feats that are actually USEFUL to a fight discussion. Will Superman thwarting a bank robbery by goading a robber to harmlessly shoot his powerful chest until the robber runs out of bullets be useful in determining how well Superman would handle a near-infinite mass punch from a fighting mad Wally West Flash? An enraged World War Hulk? Captain Marvel, after Cap has absorbed the energies of Black Adam to go with his own?

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Superman wins. He is better in every way with extra powers (especially hv and freeze breath).
2. Superman wins. Better combat speed and more likely to drop Surfer with a series of blows than Surfer dropping him with blasts. Surfer wouldn't have time to do any worthwhile offensive attacks other than blasting. Surfer would have to fight more defensive to make this fight hard. Any overly aggression would result in being open for a fist to the head or an acute dose of Hv. Supermans hv is both concussive and hot. Resistance against stars heat doesn't prove resistance against the hv's heat since the hv can reach temperatures far hotter than cores of stars (capable of penetrating kryptonian beings who are just as durable as Surfer and also receive their power from Suns too).
3. Superman wins. He is significantly faster and more powerful. He rips through constructs and is capable of blitzing Hal.

Where the hell does the energy come from to make his HV hotter than the core of a sun if he is powered by suns?

Being enhanced by his biology, your opinion does not change canon fact.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[b]NO.

Because there are several problems with your reasoning.

I'll cover just two for now in the interest of time.
(I'll give more later if time permits and/or you respond to this post.)

The first problem with your reasoning is that you seem to be subscribing to the fallacy that, because Superman has more published adventures than anyone else, he has more feats than anyone else, and THEREFORE, on a forum where feats carry a great deal of weight, Superman should automatically win.

This does not work. I think you would agree that, due to his long history, Superman has more adventures and feats on the printed page than, say, Marvel Comics' Odin.

Would that mean, then, that, if Superman and Odin fought, Superman should win?

Another problem with your line of reasoning is assuming that all of these extra adventures Superman has per month grants Superman feats that are actually USEFUL to a fight discussion. Will Superman thwarting a bank robbery by goading a robber to harmlessly shoot his powerful chest until the robber runs out of bullets be useful in determining how well Superman would handle a near-infinite mass punch from a fighting mad Wally West Flash? An enraged World War Hulk? Captain Marvel, after Cap has absorbed the energies of Black Adam to go with his own? [/B]

Maybe I didn't explain it very well, but I am not saying that just because superman has more feats or publications he should win by default, come on that will be silly.

All I am saying that building a case against a character who only appears once a month is way easier than vs someone who appears 7 times a month. The character with 7 appearances a month has so many feats that is almost impossible for you to know what he can or can't do, yet detractors often express their opinions as facts as if they knew the character and have read all his/her stories.

Glad we agree on most of the post.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Where the hell does the energy come from to make his HV hotter than the core of a sun if he is powered by suns?

@Bluewater

You see? This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

@Bluevet

I think there was an arc for post crisis superman (critical condition IIRC) explains that Superman is like a reactor.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
@Bluewater

You see? This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

@Bluevet

I think there was an arc for post crisis superman (critical condition IIRC) explains that Superman is like a reactor.

Yes there was. Apparently some missed that.