........vs Superman without his weaknesses

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
@Bluewater

You see? This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

@Bluevet

I think there was an arc for post crisis superman (critical condition IIRC) explains that Superman is like a reactor.

Bullshit. You are a big expert and you are saying "you think." There is an infinite amount of excuses for Superman to do the stupid shit he does....but mysteriously doesn't do. But to each his own. We know where you stand on this issue and every other one involving Kal.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

All I am saying that building a case against a character who only appears once a month is way easier than vs someone who appears 7 times a month. The character with 7 appearances a month has so many feats that is almost impossible for you to know what he can or can't do, yet detractors often express their opinions as facts as if they knew the character and have read all his/her stories.

Acknowledged.

Still disagree.

Reasons?

One, for whatever reason, people DON'T seem to know much about the non-Superman character they are debating against.
I originally responded in this particular thread, for instance, because I noticed a comment someone made about Superman's blood shattering Diana's weapon, stating this as if Supes could do this at any time against Wonder Woman's standard forum gear.

He can't. The showing they were talking about is a scene in "For Tomorrow". You will discover, if you read the series, or even my post from a few pages back, that the weapon is not Diana's but a witch's named Halcyon. It is, unlike Diana's own standard forum gear, magically sharp, but NOT magically durable. People envisioning Diana's own gear proving ineffective because of what they think they remember in THAT story, need to have another thought coming.

I would have to say, while on that point, whether there is a necessary correlation or not, it really does seem that the more well-read people are concerning Superman, the less well-read they seem to be about other characters, at least as far as battle worthy details like that are concerned.

It would make sense: there are only so many hours in the day FOR free-time reading. If you devote that time almost exclusively to character X, there's not a lot left over for learning about character Y, is there?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

All I am saying that building a case against a character who only appears once a month is way easier than vs someone who appears 7 times a month. The character with 7 appearances a month has so many feats that is almost impossible for you to know what he can or can't do, yet detractors often express their opinions as facts as if they knew the character and have read all his/her stories.

Disagree for two more reasons.

One is that your words above ("once a month"😉 imply that the primary or most valid way to determine what a character can do, is to examine what they do in their own title, virtually to the exclusion of others. For Wonder Woman, this equates to EXTREME handicapping, namely because nearly ALL her famous and best showings, occur in OTHER titles, not her own.

Note that Wonder Woman stopping mountain-sized rocks, or facing down a team busting opponent like Amazo, or deflecting Darkseid's lethal omega beams, or using her physical strength to help restore Earth to proper orbit is something distinctly alien to her own title. Her own writers, pre-Flashpoint, at least, simply do not give her such feats in the Wonder Woman magazine.

Whatever story they had to tell had no need for such things, or if they did, still weren't provided.
Does that mean Diana is incapable of such then? Or does it simply mean that a researcher has to cast his or her net wider than they might first think?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
@Bluewater

You see? This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

@Bluevet

I think there was an arc for post crisis superman (critical condition IIRC) explains that Superman is like a reactor.

Same place Hulk gains his extra mass, Cyclops gets his eyebeams and Batman finds little boys.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

All I am saying that building a case against a character who only appears once a month is way easier than vs someone who appears 7 times a month. The character with 7 appearances a month has so many feats that is almost impossible for you to know what he can or can't do, yet detractors often express their opinions as facts as if they knew the character and have read all his/her stories.

The second thing, or, perhaps more accurately, part B of reason 2 ...

is that there is only so much material that can be published by different authors with only loose editorship, before "fact" about fictional characters begin to contradict each other.

As Area Vet noted in less than tactful terms, you yourself know quite a bit about Superman, and appear to have one of the largest collections on him on KMC. Doubtless you possess knowledge that the average person, and perhaps even DC's own writers, would consider obscure.

For instance, in a previous discussion in some long ago thread, you told me that Superman has, at least in some periods of the pre-Flashpoint, a mental instability that causes his body to process sunlight LESS efficiently than it might another Kryptonian. In other words, he subconsciously "blocks" his own power, to the point that, even in full sunlight, he can and has proven as "powerless" as an average human. This would occur very noticeably after the Infinite Crisis series, an event that took place long after most of the fights we've been discussing in this thread.

What would that mean in a versus scenario, though?
Have you gained anything by saying "My character is weaker than he could be!" "Just imagine if he WEREN'T sort of mental ..." ?

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Bullshit. You are a big expert and you are saying "you think." There is an infinite amount of excuses for Superman to do the stupid shit he does....but mysteriously doesn't do. But to each his own. We know where you stand on this issue and every other one involving Kal.

I said "I think" because I wasn't sure and I don't remeber every Superman comic? unlike you I prefer to stay away of blank statements, especially if I don't know what I am talking about

But here is the scan I was reffering to his body splits atoms and converts them into pure energy, like a reactor, that is why I said "I think" becaue I wasn't sure

Here is another one

so 😆 right in your face buddy

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Acknowledged.

Still disagree.

Reasons?

One, for whatever reason, people DON'T seem to know much about the non-Superman character they are debating against.
I originally responded in this particular thread, for instance, because I noticed a comment someone made about Superman's blood shattering Diana's weapon, stating this as if Supes could do this at any time against Wonder Woman's standard forum gear.

He can't. The showing they were talking about is a scene in "For Tomorrow". You will discover, if you read the series, or even my post from a few pages back, that the weapon is not Diana's but a witch's named Halcyon. It is, unlike Diana's own standard forum gear, magically sharp, but NOT magically durable. People envisioning Diana's own gear proving ineffective because of what they think they remember in THAT story, need to have another thought coming.

I would have to say, while on that point, whether there is a necessary correlation or not, it really does seem that the more well-read people are concerning Superman, the less well-read they seem to be about other characters, at least as far as battle worthy details like that are concerned.

It would make sense: there are only so many hours in the day FOR free-time reading. If you devote that time almost exclusively to character X, there's not a lot left over for learning about character Y, is there?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Disagree for two more reasons.

One is that your words above ("once a month"😉 imply that the primary or most valid way to determine what a character can do, is to examine what they do in their own title, virtually to the exclusion of others. For Wonder Woman, this equates to EXTREME handicapping, namely because nearly ALL her famous and best showings, occur in OTHER titles, not her own.

Note that Wonder Woman stopping mountain-sized rocks, or facing down a team busting opponent like Amazo, or deflecting Darkseid's lethal omega beams, or using her physical strength to help restore Earth to proper orbit is something distinctly alien to her own title. Her own writers, pre-Flashpoint, at least, simply do not give her such feats in the Wonder Woman magazine.

Whatever story they had to tell had no need for such things, or if they did, still weren't provided.
Does that mean Diana is incapable of such then? Or does it simply mean that a researcher has to cast his or her net wider than they might first think?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The second thing, or, perhaps more accurately, part B of reason 2 ...

is that there is only so much material that can be published by different authors with only loose editorship, before "fact" about fictional characters begin to contradict each other.

As Area Vet noted in less than tactful terms, you yourself know quite a bit about Superman, and appear to have one of the largest collections on him on KMC. Doubtless you possess knowledge that the average person, and perhaps even DC's own writers, would consider obscure.

For instance, in a previous discussion in some long ago thread, you told me that Superman has, at least in some periods of the pre-Flashpoint, a mental instability that causes his body to process sunlight LESS efficiently than it might another Kryptonian. In other words, he subconsciously "blocks" his own power, to the point that, even in full sunlight, he can and has proven as "powerless" as an average human. This would occur very noticeably after the Infinite Crisis series, an event that took place long after most of the fights we've been discussing in this thread.

What would that mean in a versus scenario, though?
Have you gained anything by saying "My character is weaker than he could be!" "Just imagine if he WEREN'T sort of mental ..." ?

I know you are not saying this directly but you are impliying that is easier to read 500 comics to follow one character and be versed on a single character than to read 3500 comics to do the same?

Because come on, reading trough 500 comics is way easier than to read trough 3500.

As for the rest, people usually estate opinions even if they are ill informed, but it will be easier for me to inform me on a character that has only 500 comics than on one that has 3500 comics. if I read only 250 of one character that means I know 50% of his history and I am somewhat informed on the character, on the other hand if I only read 250 comics of the character that has 3500 comics I only know 14% about that character.

Knowing 50% of one characters history makes me at least somewhat informed, knowing only 14% of a character history?... Maybe I should inform myself a little bit better before talking about a topic to which I only know 14% of it.

That is my take on it anyway

We are also getting a little bit out of topic here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Same place Hulk gains his extra mass, Cyclops gets his eyebeams and Batman finds little boys.

The writters Imagination? 🙂

@Bluewater

I like this topic We are discussing and I will actually reply to each one of your responses accordingly on the Superman forum, so We don't derail this tread.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f48/t615429.html

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
@Bluewater

I like this topic We are discussing and I will actually reply to each one of your responses accordingly on the Superman forum, so We don't derail this tread.

You're one of the few Superman lovers that it doesn't feel like an absolute waste of time to interact with. I'll visit before long.

In the meantime, although I actually do NOT agree that it is off topic, since it was actually concerned with evaluating how Superman fights against other heralds and how feats should be factored in, I'll honor your implied request to answer the main questions of THIS particular thread right now:

Originally posted by lawest9
Supes weaknesses that are exploiterable are removed for these bloodlusted fights.

1. Captain Marvel without the magic weakness.

2. Silver Surfer without the red sun and kryptonite weaknesses

3. Green Lantern (Hal) same as fight 2

This is current regular Superman, how does he fare in these battles?

1. Superman wins 6 or possibly 7 out of 10 against Captain Marvel if he does not have a magic weakness. Reason is that Superman is more experienced in fighting and has more innate weapons at his disposal AND is roughly on Billy's physical level in terms of strength, speed, and durability.

3. Naija Boy and Pr give Green Lantern the majority of wins against Superman. I respect the opinion of Naija Boy more than almost any other poster owing (1) to his consistency and apparent depth of research and (2) his EXCELLENT Battlezone debate against Newjak. I'm not sure I've seen better even 3 years later. Even so, unless the original poster had in mind for Hal Jordan to be Parallax, I don't really see how a Green Lantern takes the majority against Clark without resorting to Green Kryptonite or neutralizing radiation, especially red sunlight.

Superman isn't much physically weaker than Wonder Woman, after all, and Diana even under the pen of Gail Simone SEEMED to simply outmuscle her Green Lantern competition, even to shattering the Lantern's constructs in on themselves. I'd be interested in knowing why either Pr or Naija choose Hal to win over Clark.

2. Silver Surfer 7/10.

I stumbled upon Surfer humbling the Incredible Hulk, in comics where they were taking care to emphasize the strength of Green Jeans. He depowered Hulk almost at will and was more or less matching him to that point, no selling punches and catching hands. I don't see what Superman could really do against Surfer save go for a sudden, surprising blitz. This is what accounts for the 3 wins out of 10 I'd give to Supes.
Otherwise Surfer's own physical stats balance strength, speed, durability, damage soak, and recoverability. Nor do I see heat vision or cold breath doing anything. Surfer soars through hearts of stars from near absolute zero and all that jazz. The combination is too much for him to lose conventionally. Add his exotic powers into the mix, practically mandated for this scenario, and this fight is Surfer's to lose.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

Superman isn't much physically weaker than Wonder Woman, after all,

So... When did I say GL would beat Superman? I accept I might have said it a long time ago, so I'm curious.

Originally posted by abhilegend
😂

Yeah, his delusions are hilarious I agree. Guess he's butthurt over the fact that we shut down his and others' ridiculous arguments that WW is a "peer" of Superman. LOL. In response, he makes an outrageous claim that no one could possibly be stupid enough to believe. It's clear he was just trolling with that statement. I don't think he's actually dumb enough to believe it.

Guys? Did you all forget what happens when you make personal attacks? Really?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

1. Superman wins 6 or possibly 7 out of 10 against Captain Marvel if he does not have a magic weakness. Reason is that Superman is more experienced in fighting and has more innate weapons at his disposal AND is roughly on Billy's physical level in terms of strength, speed, and durability.

3. Naija Boy and Pr give Green Lantern the majority of wins against Superman. I respect the opinion of Naija Boy more than almost any other poster owing (1) to his consistency and apparent depth of research and (2) his EXCELLENT Battlezone debate against Newjak. I'm not sure I've seen better even 3 years later. Even so, unless the original poster had in mind for Hal Jordan to be Parallax, I don't really see how a Green Lantern takes the majority against Clark without resorting to Green Kryptonite or neutralizing radiation, especially red sunlight.

Id give GL the win over superman only with the GL functioning to the absolute best of his abilities and making optimal use of his powerset. I consider the GL powerset categorically superior and believe that proper utilization would bring victory against even the likes of superman. Conversely, given their typical portrayals, i would say superman wins more often than not, with this especially being the case within the DCnU universe.

-As for this tread,
1- Superman defeats Captain Marvel 6-7 out of 10. Comparable and probably slightly superior physicality and ranged attacks get him the win here.

2. Loses to surfer 7 /10. Even excusing weakness exploitation tactics, surfer has a much more varied arsenal in terms of offense and defense, much of which he can launch simultaneously. He also has top notch physicality, not enough to beat superman in a straight up slugfest, but more than good enough to prolong the fight even barring his other offensive and defensive options.

3. Defeats Hal Jordan DCnU 7-8/10. Jordan lacks the physicality to significantly hang with superman once his constructs are broken nor the concentration to maintain them effectively in battle while under an onslaught as significant as superman's.

Billy and SS kick his ass. With or without weaknesses.

Hal loses all the fights (again, with or without weaknesses).

I say Superman beats Surfer. He's faster in combat. Has the ability to devastate Surfer with blows. Hv is potent enough to hurt Surfer and thus keeping him on the defensive. Has freeze breath to slow his motion.

How can Marvel win 1 fight if Superman is better in every way plus have ranged powers? 10/10 easily.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Id give GL the win over superman only with the GL functioning to the absolute best of his abilities and making optimal use of his powerset. I consider the GL powerset categorically superior and believe that proper utilization would bring victory against even the likes of superman. Conversely, given their typical portrayals, i would say superman wins more often than not, with this especially being the case within the DCnU universe.

-As for this tread,
1- Superman defeats Captain Marvel 6-7 out of 10. Comparable and probably slightly superior physicality and ranged attacks get him the win here.

2. Loses to surfer 7 /10. Even excusing weakness exploitation tactics, surfer has a much more varied arsenal in terms of offense and defense, much of which he can launch simultaneously. He also has top notch physicality, not enough to beat superman in a straight up slugfest, but more than good enough to prolong the fight even barring his other offensive and defensive options.

3. Defeats Hal Jordan DCnU 7-8/10. Jordan lacks the physicality to significantly hang with superman once his constructs are broken nor the concentration to maintain them effectively in battle while under an onslaught as significant as superman's.

Somehow only surfer gets the benefit of being on a forum. SMH

Originally posted by Kryptoniano
Billy and SS kick his ass. With or without weaknesses.

Hal loses all the fights (again, with or without weaknesses).

Superman 6/10
Surfer 10/10
Hal 6-7/10

Originally posted by Naija boy

2. Loses to surfer 7 /10. Even excusing weakness exploitation tactics, surfer has a much more varied arsenal in terms of offense and defense, much of which he can launch simultaneously. He also has top notch physicality, not enough to beat superman in a straight up slugfest, but more than good enough to prolong the fight even barring his other offensive and defensive options. .

Supes enemies like Darkseid and Doomsday and Mxy and often Brainiac are stronger than pantheon gods. This is his rogues gallery. Their power and machinations can take over universes.

Let alone random ones he's beat like like actual Norse, Kryptonian and Olympian gods or Blaze and Satannus, or Dominus or Imperiex

When Surfer fights guys in Superman's bracket he gets one shotted and left. .

I won't say its impossible. Supes has been stopped by less in comics. But assuming he's fighting at his best, he's in a different league.