........vs Superman without his weaknesses

Started by -Pr-32 pages

Originally posted by ODG
I never gave two sh1ts about writer interviews as per form rules, but considering that you do here, a lot of that interview actually reinforces the major points that I've been saying, e.g., "the effort Max had to put into this was tremendous – and unique. It’s not as if he left a little door in Superman’s head saying, ‘Enter’ so that the telepath du jour can jump behind the wheel and play the DCU’s version of Being John Malkovich," "you have to get Superman to such an emotionally distraught and temporarily deranged state that he’s willing to pull off all of the governors that he lives with every second of every day, to get him to the point where he’s going after someone with everything that he’s got," "the fight is between two opponents whoa re at very cross purposes – Kal is hitting her with everything he has, and Diana has to do everything she can do to survive that, and move on from that, and get to Max." Pretty sudden to me. As I'm suddenly having to confront what I had always thought for years, was explicitly against the forum rules. Random writer interviews. I've always said there isn't a single way to fight at your best. Thor can fight his best by using Mjolnir's plot device powers or just going balls-to-the-wall. So prove to me that when Superman lets his power (and his powers) fully loose in a direct, no nonsense approach, that it falls well below his best. An approach he's used successfully against DoS Doomsday, against Darkseid in Superman/Batman: Apocalypse, against the first Imperiex Probe, against the multiple Imperiex Probes, etc.

This shouldn't be a huge contrived discussion, because Superman has few fights where he goes full-out direct assault on his opponent, let alone killing (trying to kill) his opponent. It's sourced from now having to dignify a random writer interview from a French comic discussion forum. Forgive me.

I said way back, and have said years ago, that Superman wasn't holding back. I haven't disputed that at all recently, nor would I.

We've been using that interview for years. It's from 2005 after all. Q99 and I have done the rounds on this same argument a bunch of times too. If it's sudden to you, fair enough, but it's not out of the blue for others.

As far as the difference... I mean, how are they not? You have read both, right? Superman against Darkseid, even as annoyed as he was by Kara, was still in control. When he beat the Elite, he was still in control. Imperiex Probes, Doomsday(s), every time he fights them, we see him act with an actual tactical mindset (even in DOS before things degraded in to a drawn out fist-fight).

In the fight with Diana on Earth, he does use some tactics, and when he does, he's winning, but he's still shown more as a murder machine than he typically is. He doesn't fight against Diana as Doomsday the way he would usually fight against Doomsday, after all.

One of the biggest examples, imo, is how Superman reacts. Max didn't just show him Lois dying, he pushed him to new levels of grief he wasn't used to feeling. Manchester Black had already shown Superman what it would be like to lose Lois, and even then Superman wasn't pushed over the edge.

If you want to say he's at his best, that's fine. I just wholly disagree, and I (like you I'll bet) see the events in Sacrifice as being proof of that. Especially when a forum rule we all know is that characters under mental control can't be argued as being acting at their peak. And we've used that with everyone from Wolverine to Cyclops to (yes) Superman.

The original link doesn't exist anymore. Sorry. I did try. shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
nope, but go ahead. really won't matter much though. one fight doesn't mean all that much when they've had so many.

Have they? In nearly every fight they have, Superman is handicapped one way or another.

When the roles are reversed, he oneshots her.

Originally posted by leonidas
no, not under normal circumstances. with cis off, and all her weapons (axe or sword) i think she could get a split.

🙄

Split?

Sure... If Superman allowed her to hit him with those magical weapons that he knows are a great threat to him. If he realized Diana was really trying to kill him or seriously injure him then she wouldn't have a prayer of ever hitting him with them IF HE WASN'T HANDICAPPED IN SOME WAY. Feel free though to dispute that Superman is significantly faster than her as people like you usually do without ever proving it. Just don't expect to convince those of us who know better. 👆

She'd be lucky to get more than a single win out of ten and even giving that one win to her is being generous.

I don't think using a blood lusted supes vs an obviously non blood lusted WW is helping,obviously she wasn't hitting hard enough to kill,unlike him.

She can't even ko him in a fight as admitted by herself, much less kill him. A bloodlusted Superman would've killed her in three punches even after shielding from Aegis by her own admission.

😬

Originally posted by abhilegend
She can't even ko him in a fight as admitted by herself, much less kill him. A bloodlusted Superman would've killed her in three punches even after shielding from Aegis by her own admission.

😬

Speculation.

Superman shit stomps.

Well.I dnt know much about dc,and the like...so I cnt really debate much on it. Ill just take ur word for it

Originally posted by Surtur

You also bring up the tiara, but wasn't it a magical tiara type deal? That is the reason I saw as why it even hurt him. Since this dude has flicked his damn blood at her in the past and broke her shit(her weapon). I wish I had the scans because it was awesome.

It's just the reverse, actually.

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing magical about Wonder Woman's tiara. It's just very durable.

On the other hand, the weapon that you're talking about, the one cracked by Superman's blood WAS magical ... and was not Wonder Woman's.

Which is why it didn't have the durability of Wonder Woman's standard gear.

Originally posted by lawest9
Supes weaknesses that are exploiterable are removed for these bloodlusted fights.

1. Captain Marvel without the magic weakness.

2. Silver Surfer without the red sun and krytonite weaknesses

3. Green Lantern (Hal) same as fight 2

This is current regular Superman, how does he fare in these battles?

Surfer bfrs dat ass 10/10

Superman shit stomps

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

the weapon that you're talking about, the one cracked by Superman's blood, was magical ... and was not Wonder Woman's.

Which is why it didn't have the durability of Wonder Woman's standard gear.

You asked about scans before. You can find them easily enough by Googling "For Tomorrow". The episode you're talking about occurred in Superman Volume 2 #211. In the issue before that, Superman Volume 2 #210, we see Wonder Woman obtaining that weapon from a witch named Halcyon, who is also apparently Delilah of Sampson and Delilah, of Biblical fame. Halcyon might also be the dancing girl who encouraged King Herod to behead John the Baptist.
Undoubtedly there's a third reference in there, another murder victim named the "Poet King", but I really have no idea what the allusion is there.
I'm not really sure what to make of Azzarello having Diana dealing with such a woman. Then again, we saw the kind of beings Azzarello envisioned for Diana's "family" at the start of the most recent run of Wonder Woman. Three more victims get burned alive by Diana's "brother" (Apollo) alone ...

At any rate, the weapon that gets cracked in that blood-flinging incident is Halcyon's, not Diana's.

Originally posted by Star428
LOL. No, she still wasn't above him even with his handicap. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to grab her by her neck and take her to space while she couldn't do squat about it. If he hadn't changed his mind about throwing/knocking DD into the sun she would've been killed long before she got a chance to somehow sneak up on him and bash his ears or slit his throat with her tiara. The so-called "fight" would've been over in less than two minutes.
she could have lassoed him after she cut him. Superman mind was compromised and didn't know who he was fighting. Plus he was fighting from grief. Superman has to have a clear head to fight smart in order to beat wW. He didn't. Thus she was above him in that scenario.

Originally posted by h1a8
she could have lassoed him after she cut him. Superman mind was compromised and didn't know who he was fighting. Plus he was fighting from grief. Superman has to have a clear head to fight smart in order to beat wW. He didn't. Thus she was above him in that scenario.

Superman in Sacrifice is actually using good strategy to go for a trip to the sun to start the fight. It's proven to multiply his strength and other powers severalfold.

I firmly believe a fight where he did NOT take such a precaution would precede much as we were shown a few weeks ago, IF Diana herself were minded to fight seriously. Of course, this also depends on how effective his heat vision is at standard levels. The all-important factor in what took place below, for instance, was that Diana was ultimately able to resist his laser attack, whether with shield or without:

Injustice? Might as well post DCUO where Superman soloed entire JLA including oneshotting Diana.

😬

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Superman in Sacrifice is actually using good strategy to go for a trip to the sun to start the fight. It's proven to multiply his strength and other powers severalfold.

It really only does that when he acually takes a dip for an extended period and he didn't grab WW with intention of going to sun to get a boost but instead to throw her/him in it. So it was not a "strategy" he was using. He was in a rage. He wasn't thinking about strategy. In fact, he wasn't really thinking much, if any, at all.

He mentioned to himself in a later comic about how he wanted to make DD suffer. That was only reason WW didn't die by getting thrown or knocked into the sun.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Injustice? Might as well post DCUO where Superman soloed entire JLA including oneshotting Diana.

😬

Yeah, it's pretty sad when fanboys have to rely on non-canon stories to defend their character. Just shows how desperate they are.

Originally posted by Star428
Yeah, it's pretty sad when fanboys have to rely on non-canon stories to defend their character. Just shows how desperate they are.

What gets me is that you can say this only a week after one or more people from your side were temporarily banned for letting their emotions get the better of them.

Then again, you're championing a guy who claimed, on the previous page of this thread, that Diana failed to so much as turn Clark's head with her punches.

Of course, that MIGHT be true, as the only true punch I saw thrown by Diana to Clark's head is the following, and it's arguable there's not a lot of rotation of head involved here ...

1. Tie

2. I think Surfer can win this via molecular or energy manipulation.

3. Superman punches and tears through the constructs like tissue paper.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I said way back, and have said years ago, that Superman wasn't holding back. I haven't disputed that at all recently, nor would I.

We've been using [Greg Rucka's Sacrifice] interview for years. It's from 2005 after all ...

The original link doesn't exist anymore. Sorry. I did try. shrug

I told you that would be the case, Pr.
Interested parties can read the article nearly exactly as it appeared on the page before the one this links to, though:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=9