Originally posted by -Pr-
it was no "mere blast". i saw the feat myself.
But it was still a blast that came from Surfer that was so powerful that it created a big a** black hole.
Imagine the type of power Surfer has to have in order to pull that off.
Surfer power level in the high herald is completely different than almost everyone (besides Thor) on that list.
Originally posted by TheKahnYes, effectiveness trumps versatility.The only way Superman can win is with his fists, while the Surfer has nearly a dozen different ways to win thank to all his "fancy powers," yet none of that matters because Superman is more "effective".
Yep. You've convinced me. 😐
I'm reminded of that scene in Indiana Jones where the arab guy was showing off his amazing sword skills, and then Indy just shoots him nonchalantly.
Sure, Surfer can turn Superman's cape into gingerbread or evolve a nearby frog into some emokid, Superman can rely on his bread butter of speed and power and put the hurtin on Surfer.
And this ain't because Supes is popular. It's because he gets the job done. He has a huge mental advantage against Norrin.
I'm reminded of a quote on martial arts: "A Master knows hundreds of moves. A champion needs only three".
That is, versatility is nice, but if you can do a few things really well and you're good enough to do them in most situations, you'll win fights about as surely. Superman's really good at fighting even though he just uses strength/speed/heat vision and the rare freeze breath.
Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm reminded of that scene in Indiana Jones where the arab guy was showing off his amazing sword skills, and then Indy just shoots him nonchalantly.
it remind me of that too..Supes is the Arab guy and Surfer is Indy..Supes can show off his skill and speed all he want..Surfer is the one with the firepower and he gonna drop Supes dead..
Originally posted by Starscream M
Yes, effectiveness trumps versatility.I'm reminded of that scene in Indiana Jones where the arab guy was showing off his amazing sword skills, and then Indy just shoots him nonchalantly.
Sure, Surfer can turn Superman's cape into gingerbread or evolve a nearby frog into some emokid, Superman can rely on his bread butter of speed and power and put the hurtin on Surfer.
And this ain't because Supes is popular. It's because he gets the job done. He has a huge mental advantage against Norrin.
No, you have that wrong. The Surfer can turn Superman into gingerbread or devolve Superman into a frog. Please tell me how Superman's "getting the job done" protects him against the Surfer matter/DNA manipulation.
After that please explain how Superman counters the Surfer's interdenominational teleportation, telepathy, illusion casting, bio-energy manipulation, phasing, surfboard entrapment, ect.
Originally posted by TheKahn
No, you have that wrong. The Surfer can turn [b]Superman into gingerbread or devolve Superman into a frog. Please tell me how Superman's "getting the job done" protects him against the Surfer matter/DNA manipulation.After that please explain how Superman counters the Surfer's interdenominational teleportation, telepathy, illusion casting, bio-energy manipulation, phasing, surfboard entrapment, ect. [/B]
1. surfer cannot turn superman into gingerbread or devolve superman...especially not in the heat of battle. unless you think superman is sitting there in front of Surfer as Surfer applies his concentration to pull off his higher end powers. No, Superman is gonna be zipping at near lightspeed...leaving Surfer busy just fending off superman's assault...the last thing on his mind would be to use some fancy shmancy power that would take concentration and time to pull off.
2. Superman doesn't need to counter teleportation. If surfer wants to run away to another dimension, Superman won't hold it against him.
3. Superman has faced powerful telepaths and has a level of resistance. Superman also has his own rarely shown telepathic abilities...he is a formidable psychic warfare combatant.
4. Illusion casting is useless against one with senses as acute as Superman's. Xray vision will easily detect what is illusion and what is real.
5. see 1.
6. Surfer would not phase into Superman. And even if he did, that would result in possibly a double KO. Or Superman can use frequency vibration to really mess Surfer up good.
Originally posted by Starscream M
1. surfer cannot turn superman into gingerbread or devolve superman...especially not in the heat of battle. unless you think superman is sitting there in front of Surfer as Surfer applies his concentration to pull off his higher end powers. No, Superman is gonna be zipping at near lightspeed...leaving Surfer busy just fending off superman's assault...the last thing on his mind would be to use some fancy shmancy power that would take concentration and time to pull off.2. Superman doesn't need to counter teleportation. If surfer wants to run away to another dimension, Superman won't hold it against him.
3. Superman has faced powerful telepaths and has a level of resistance. Superman also has his own rarely shown telepathic abilities...he is a formidable psychic warfare combatant.
4. Illusion casting is useless against one with senses as acute as Superman's. Xray vision will easily detect what is illusion and what is real.
5. see 1.
6. Surfer would not phase into Superman. And even if he did, that would result in possibly a double KO. Or Superman can use frequency vibration to really mess Surfer up good.
None of that makes any sense to anyone who has seen a fraction of the Surfer feats 😐
1. Superman's velocity means nothing to the Surfer thanks to his Cosmic Awareness which allows him to track objects lightyears away traveling at high velocites. Superman's speed isn't enough to prevent the Surfer from using his powers on Superman. What you're basing that assumption on, I don't know.
2. Yes he does or else the Surfer is going to BFR him.
3. He may be resistant, but its still another advantage that the Surfer has over him.
4. The Surfer's illusions have fooled Galactus. Galactus' sense >>> Kryptonian senses
5. Again, Cosmic Awareness allows the Surfer to track objects traveling at high speeds lightyears away. Tracking Superman and using his powers against the Kryptonian isn't going to be a problem.
6. How you came to that conclusion is beyond me, but I was referring to the Surfer simply making himself intangible rendering all of Superman's physical powers useless. Also, if you believe Superman's "vibrating" can counter the power cosmic...well, I don't really know how to respond to that.
Originally posted by TheKahn6. How you came to that conclusion is beyond me, but I was referring to the Surfer simply making himself intangible rendering all of Superman's physical powers useless. Also, if you believe Superman's "vibrating" can counter the power cosmic...well, I don't really know how to respond to that.
Did you realize Superman has used heat vision to fix holes in reality or casually rubbed his hands together to create electrical force fields strong enough to hold together a reality?
Originally posted by Starscream M
Did you realize Superman has used heat vision to fix holes in reality or casually rubbed his hands together to create electrical force fields strong enough to hold together a reality?
And you actually want to argue that those feats aren't PIS and are instead depictions of his standard capabilities? 😐
Originally posted by TheKahnno...not saying thats his standard capability...but just saying he's known to pull things outta his ass when needed.
And you actually want to argue that those feats aren't PIS and are instead depictions of his standard capabilities? 😐
essentially, that is Superman's best power...that separates him from other heralds...it's his ability to perservere and succeed, no matter the odds or situation.
Just like why Captain America is arguably one of the most effective heroes on the Avengers despite others being smarter or far more powerful. Cap is just bread and butter, he's effective. Superman is like the herald Captain America.
Originally posted by Starscream M
no...not saying thats his standard capability...but just saying he's known to pull things outta his ass when needed.essentially, that is Superman's best power...that separates him from other heralds...it's his ability to perservere and succeed, no matter the odds or situation.
Just like why Captain America is arguably one of the most effective heroes on the Avengers despite others being smarter or far more powerful. Cap is just bread and butter, he's effective. Superman is like the herald Captain America.
wallbash
As far as I know, you're not allowed to count a propensity for PIS as a legitimate attribute on this forum.
Originally posted by TheKahnI don't see it as PIS
wallbashAs far as I know, you're not allowed to count a propensity for PIS as a legitimate attribute on this forum.
it's part of the essential character of Superman and Captain America...it's a big part of what makes them great heroes
if you reduce them to purely their powers and attributes, then neither is very special. it's their will and personality that pushes their powers beyond their respective levels.
Part of what makes Superman such a fearsome sight for villains is that he is so indomitable in spirit. He will always try to dig into that 1% reserve even when he's already given everything. That's what makes a Superman different from a Surfer or a Manhunter imo.
Taking away their characters neuters them. Also, that's why I don't think Surfer is as powerful as you think...because his personality limits the effectiveness of his powers rather than enhances it. Just my opinion.
Just as an analogy, you see this play out in sports. Sometimes the less skilled athlete wins purely because he has more heart and plays harder than his opponent.
Originally posted by lawest9
1. Captain Marvel without the magic weakness.
2. Silver Surfer without the red sun and krytonite weaknesses
3. Green Lantern (Hal) same as fight 2
Originally posted by Starscream MIt's this aspect which concerns me most. Unfortunately for Clark, I find flying standing up cooler than red underoos, so I'm giving Soarin' Norrin the win here.
* essentially, that is Superman's best power...that separates him from other heralds...it's his ability to perservere and succeed, no matter the odds or situation.
Originally posted by TheKahn
I was just giving one example of how the Silver Surfer could win without Superman being able to lay a hand on him. His other abilities that could Superman has no clear ability to counter include but are not limited to:
interdenominational teleportation
telepathy
illusion casting
bio-energy manipulation
DNA manipulation
matter manipulation
surfboard intrapmentHonestly, I think its Superman's popularity that keeps him in fights like this more than anything else. If he was a C or D list hero instead of one of DC's Trinity nobody would give him a snowball's chance in hell against someone like SS.
Yes 😐
He capable both of nanosecond reactions and instant detection of beings along with their meta-abilities thanks to his cosmic awareness.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/48/marvelcomicspresents001fk4.jpg
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5489/cospowunlim199600411no5.jpg
half of those won't actually work. they've been tried and failed by people more powerful than surfer.
oh not the cosmic awareness thing again. also, nanoseconds aren't really that impressive, considering that superman is just as fast if not faster reflex wise.
honestly, if you're going to use popularity as an argument, should we even continue this?
Originally posted by carver9
But it was still a blast that came from Surfer that was so powerful that it created a big a** black hole.Imagine the type of power Surfer has to have in order to pull that off.
Surfer power level in the high herald is completely different than almost everyone (besides Thor) on that list.
no, he's not. a black hole is not the be all and end all of cosmic phenomena.
Originally posted by -Pr-Yeah Surfer has used those abilities on people who are supposed to surpass him power as well. :/
half of those won't actually work. they've been tried and failed by people more powerful than surfer.oh not the cosmic awareness thing again. also, nanoseconds aren't really that impressive, considering that superman is just as fast if not faster reflex wise.
honestly, if you're going to use popularity as an argument, should we even continue this?
no, he's not. a black hole is not the be all and end all of cosmic phenomena.
Not saying those will end a match with Superman but it's a ridiculous way to argue. Almost everyone on the High Herald level has done something or taken something or effected something that is supposed to be way out of their level.
Surfer, Thor, Superman, Hal all have done those kinds of things.
Originally posted by -Pr-
half of those won't actually work. they've been tried and failed by people more powerful than surfer.
Of course. None of the Surfer's laundry list of cosmic powers would work, but Superman can win just by hitting SS really, really hard. How could I not realize that?
Originally posted by -Pr-
oh not the cosmic awareness thing again. also, nanoseconds aren't really that impressive, considering that superman is just as fast if not faster reflex wise.
Its a b!tch, I'll give you that but you can't dismiss one of the Surfer's trademark powers simply because you don't like it.
Originally posted by -Pr-
honestly, if you're going to use popularity as an argument, should we even continue this?
That's just an observation of mine that I did not intend to be a debating point. I just think that Superman gets more support and is elevated to a somewhat higher level than his powers would logically indicate due to his popularity much like Wolverine or Captain America.
Originally posted by Philosophía
Khan is a judge. So I'm still thinking if I should kicks his ass all over the thread now or after the tourney is over. mmm
You're welcomed to try. Although I'm still trying to wrap my little brain around the whole 'will to persevere >>> power cosmic' concept, so you might have to go slow and use really small words. 😐
Originally posted by TheKahnit works in comics. that's how hulk always ends up holding his own against Thor even though thor has way more powers and Hulk only has his fists. Rulk even owned thor with just fists. so don't underestimate the power of the FIST!
Of course. None of the Surfer's laundry list of cosmic powers would work, but Superman can win just by hitting SS really, really hard. How could I not realize that?
