Originally posted by Omega VisionDid you read this in an interview? I'm asking you? Don't say it's obvious and then not post a link.
That's the entire point of FC. He was trying to point out how comics are steering away from the fun imagination driven comics he read as a boy toward darker and more depressingly "realistic" comics.
I suggest you read an interview or read an annotation. Obviously you only read FC once (if even that) and didn't even look for context.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Did you read this in an interview? I'm asking you? Don't say it's obvious and then not post a link.
Originally posted by Omega VisionK, I'll read it later when I have more time. Is it in part 1 or 2 of this interview?
Enjoy
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Hyperbolic attenutation whose only support comes from off-handed remarks, purple prose and just runs counter to the themes of the story.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Unsupported speculation that the order came down from TOAA himself.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0And even if you could prove that TOAA got involved,
it doesn't make the IG "multiversal" by proxy.
TOAA is the one that gave the order on the second restriction:
I never said that made it "multiversal" ...
but it does tell us that the IG is mighty enough to concern the true Supreme Being.
Starlin, this being his creation, knew this was too much power for anyone to have,
I mean he literally called it being GOD in Marvel:
"The Infinity Gauntlet,
a story that dealt with the idea of a nihilist (Thanos) becoming God"
..........................................................................................
Jim Starlin himself adds:
"I've done the good side of God and the bad side of God,
I've gone as far as I can with the Infinity Gauntlet"
Originally posted by OneDumbG0The Fantastic Four met TOAA and got him to fix Reed's face.
Reed's facial complexion isn't multiversally relevant.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Nothing suggested that the 616 IG could surpass the Living Tribunal's power. Living Tribunal's completely discretionary power to simply turn the Infinity Gauntlet "on" or "off" is proof of that. The plain reading of Infinity Watch #1 shows that any confrontation between LT and Adam Warlock would lay waste to the 616 Universe.
And obliterating the 616 Reality would lead to the destruction of the Omniverse
nanoseconds afterwards:
"We concluded that the destruction of This Universe,
while still bounded by the speed of light,
would occur within an expanding simultaneity, which would,
paratemporally, have begun immediately following the initial
nanoseconds of This Universe.
And then it would Expand outward from This Universe ...
we call it 616 ... to engulf All Others ... "
"If your World Dies now, Stephen, it will take Everything with it.
Not only This Universe (616) but All the Other UniverseS as well.
Everything there is, will End.
Or rather put it even more simply, Everything will never have been"
Originally posted by OneDumbG0No. Magus using his incomplete IG > Quasar using the UN.
You're conflating the artifact with the user.The fallacy of this sort of reasoning is inherent when you extrapolate it and apply it equally onto the IG. Using your faulty logic, the only way the UN could be superior in scope to the incomplete IG would have been if Quasar was completely unaffected by Magus while holding the UN. That in itself is ludicrous since the UN doesn't even grant it's user some sort of powerup/protection. But it's even more ludicrous when you apply that logic on the IG itself: Maelstrom was completely unaffected by Thanos w/ full IG. Outright mocked Thanos for his impotency and operated completely outside of the awareness granted by the full IG. Do we now conclude that Maelstrom > IG? No. We don't. Because we recognize that the IG has feats greater in scope than Maelstrom's.
Using your faulty logic, perfectly extrapolated, we've now arrived in an untenable position resulting in some absurd cosmological hierarchy wherein: Maelstrom (multiversal++ for being immune to IG) > IG (multiversal+ for stomping Quasar) > UN (plain resetting Marvel Multiverse).
Ignoring the absurdity of this faulty logic as applied to the IG itself is a double standard and too convenient.
Fact is, Thanos/IG defeated the SAME Eternity that got remade by Reed with the UN,
so, how you're differentiating the two is what is absurd.
616 Eternity 2006 Bio: (concerning the IG)
616 Eternity 2006 Bio: (concerning Reed using the UN)
616 Eternity 2006 Bio: (concerning Dormy in 616 and merging with Eternity power) *
* 616 Eternity's Power:
"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL this -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,
the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"
Originally posted by OneDumbG0At the same time, going through this exercise in deductive reasoning (as conclusive though it is) shouldn't overshadow the plain application of common sense. We know that a rocket launcher has a greater proven destructive capability than a handgun (just like we know the UN has a greater proven scope of power than the IG). Killing the rocket launcher user with a handgun doesn't reverse-project some sort of rocket launcher+ destructive capability onto the handgun, especially since the handgun has never shown such destructive capability on its own (just like Magus stomping Quasar doesn't reverse-project some sort of multiversal+ scope of power onto the IG, especially since the IG has never shown such scope of power on its own). The premise is absurd. It's just common sense.
Incomplete IG turned back the energies of the UN on it's user,
after the UN engulfed Magus' base. (this fact was artistically depicted in the Quasar interpretation)
Respect 616 Eternity biatch!
Eternity is Time incarnated ...
When he raises a Hand which holds whole universeS withIN it,
Past Present and Future"
..................................................................................
Strange on Eternity: (during the Dormy arc)
Strange:
"You don't understand?
Eternity IS A GOD! He is ...
the complete embodiment of everyone and everything ...
... on All levels of Creation"
===========================
616 Eternity is badass!
===========================
Stated by the Living Tribunal to be "Lord over All That IS"
And only the IG being it's true threat.
.....................................................
Thanos/IG not only stomped in one move
Eternity (who holds whole UniverseS in one hand - past present & future)
Eternity (who kills & gives birth to UniverseS all day, who can re-make all UniverseS)
Eternity (lord of all that is)
Thanos also effortlessly replaced "the Lord of all that is" ...
Originally posted by Mr Master
I believe I can prove it.TOAA is the one that gave the order on the second restriction:
I never said that made it "multiversal" ...
but it does tell us that the IG is mighty enough to concern the true Supreme Being.Starlin, this being his creation, knew this was too much power for anyone to have,
I mean he literally called it being GOD in Marvel:"The [B]Infinity Gauntlet
,
a story that dealt with the idea of a nihilist (Thanos) becoming God"..........................................................................................
Jim Starlin himself adds:
"I've done the good side of God and the bad side of God,
I've gone as far as I can with the Infinity Gauntlet" [/B]
This from Warlock and the Infinity Watch #44 also suggests that TOAA is the one who ultimately ruled against the IG:
LT says: "Though the plea may be the only way to stave off the Magus's mad ambitions, I cannot grant it. Because of rulings beyond my control, the only entity that may lift these restrictions is Eternity."
Originally posted by OneDumbG0You need to show me proof that the 616 Eternity in Infinity Gauntlet was Multi-Eternity.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0One single throw-away line that probably refers to universes/dimensions within the 616 universe, e.g., Microverse, Mojoverse, Limbo, Darkforce Dimension, the Negative Zone, Mephisto's realm, Nightmare's realm, etc. And it was one single throw-away line in Infinity Quest.
The rest of your mentions are known pocket realms/universes,
and Thanos clearly pointed out "THIS" (616) and "and All Other" (UniverseS) ...
I don't see any mention of pocket realms/dimensions/universes or whathaveyou.
Let's stick to the facts and shy away from "perhaps he refers to."
Originally posted by OneDumbG0The fact that only 616 versions of Abstracts and Heroes are involved and we never see alternate Marvel Universes or alternate versions of entities/characters should compel you to not place absolute faith in that one single throw-away line.
And actually, Magus merged with an Incomplete IG,
the 616 Reality with a Duplicate 616 Reality,
so that's two UniverseS right there being manipulated.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Especially when the rest of the story
and all subsequent references to the IG talk about universe, in the singular.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0It's extremely arguable that only a mirror reality was created by the CCU's, and not a whole new universe that would be substantially real enough to deserve its own numerical designation, e.g., 919-Universe.
Simple and put, as stated in on panel, and as artistically depicted.
Magus created a Duplicate 616 Universe with 5 CCUs.
Then Magus began to merge the 616 Universe, with this Duplicate 616 Universe.
(it would've taken hours he said)
Then Magus used the IG to instantly merge the 616 Universe, with the Duplicate.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0As I recall, Magus referred to it as an dark reflection of this actuality/reality. The IG was only manipulating the 616-Universe into becoming a dark reflection of itself by using the dark reflection reality created by the CCU's.
If you're trying to say that the CCUs did not create an entire Universe,
that the incomplete IG merged with 616 in an instant,
then this piece of post is an utter fallacy.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0The UN created a pinpoint sphere of nullification that Quasar got pulled into because Quasar sucked with it and took too long.
What you also may be forgetting
is that Quasar was purposefully trying to limit the scope of the power of the UN,
because he knew it could destroy everything.
Quasar never at any time stated he limited the power of the UN.
Quasar clearly was trying to hold back the "sphere of nullification" (as in range)
as to not nullify anything more than Magus and his compound:
Just like I said before,
the only difference between this incident and the Reed scenario,
is range.
In the end,
the same energies are emitted from the UN regardless of the target,
"Nullification Energies" ...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Magus beat Quasar. I can kill a guy holding an assault rifle with a handgun (especially if he sucks at using the rifle), but that doesn't make the handgun more powerful than the rifle.
Since Magus actually/literally controlled the energies that nullifies Time-Space effortlessly:
As we can all see,
the power of the UN is the energies it contains,
these energies are the same at any level.
As we can all see, the white spot known as the nullification sphere,
has the same effect on space-time,
whether it's a marble sized sphere, or a Universal one,
it's clearly pointed out in these scans above, and this Fact, cannot be argued.
Anyhow, to suggest that the complete IG is merely Universal is preposterous
when a single Gem (Time) has performed Universal feats,
and even nullified from existence an entire Universe: (Soul)
==================================
Rune, with the Time Gem only ...
completely freezes the entire Time-stream:
Indeed ....
... the Living Tribunal himself confirms the feat:
==================================
The Soul Gem alone ... erasing the old Magus' Timeline (an entire Universe) from existence,
while simultaneously altering the future of 616:
...............................
Warlock recalls this feat (years later) in Thanos #1:
"Destroyed a Reality once"
^ This isn't even a triple post. It's an octuplet post. Let's summarize:
1) Good to know that you admit that TOAA getting involved doesn't imbue situations or artifacts with multiversal relevance. Anything else you're trying to insinuate skirting around that is made moot by this.
2)
Originally posted by Mr MasterI don't know what you meant by this earlier statement then, other than just such a notion:
I have no idea what you're referring to,
I have never claimed that the IG is or could've ever been at equals
or surpassing the LT.
Originally posted by Mr Master3) "Laying waste" to the 616 Universe does not necessarily equate to the obliteration of the entire 616 reality. In either case, the conversation between Living Tribunal, Eternity and Adam Warlock refers to the 616 Universe, singular. That is made obvious by their choice of words, the tone of the conversation and the circumstances therein. And the domino effect that follows the obliteration of the 616 Universe doesn't reverse-project any multiversal scope of power onto the IG either. The death of 616 Galactus would do the same thing and we don't imbue him with multiversal powers.
IG makes it's wielder God beneath a power comparable or passing the LT.
4) Handbooks also do not override on-panel events. The scope of Infinity Gauntlet was clearly universal. The scope of the Abraxas storyline was clearly multiversal. Projecting multiversal relevance from the latter onto the former through the attenuated use of handbook entries doesn't override the plain presentation of either story. Starlin knows there are an infinite number of other universes. He chose to deal with the 616 one.
5)
Originally posted by Mr MasterDark reflections of realities and characters are plot devices in dozens of stories and their ephemeral nature makes it arguable that it wasn't substantially real enough to stand on its own as a separate whole universe, e.g., 919-Universe. But this is ultimately inaposite. Don't conflate the merger of two universes (neither of which the IG created) as being somehow equal or surpassing that of the instant desruction/recreation of the entire Marvel Multiverse.
If you're trying to say that the CCUs did not create an entire Universe,
that the incomplete IG merged with 616 in an instant,
then this piece of post is an utter fallacy.
7) And yes, Quasar did limit the power of the UN. For you to deny that, then turn around and say that he only tried to eliminate Magus with a focused sphere is oxymoronic. And no, it's very arguable that the nullifcation energy present in Infinity War #6 is not the same as the nullification energy that destroyed and recreated the entire Marvel Multiverse. The former only nullified. The latter nullified and recreated. Even if you choose to ignore this, controlling a small sphere of nullification energy does not make the IG's power multiversal. You can skirt around this simple fact all you want.
8) As for your last post, you hold those single panels out to confirm that each individual Gem has universal feats. So what? Universal =/= Multiversal. And as I recall, Thanos and In-Betweener assisted Warlock with the latter feat.
Bottom-line:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're confusing the user with the artifact. You're confusing the user with the scope of power involved.Spectre is multiversal. Just because Black Alice can steal his powers doesn't make Black Alice = multiversal+. Red Skull w/ Cosmic Cube can be universal. Cap w/ his fist punching him doesn't make his fist = universal+. A rocket launcher can wreck a building. Me killing the soldier w/ rocket launcher with a handgun doesn't make my handgun = rocket launcher+.
The whole premise is absurd.
Yes but ODG.. Your SPECULATING and ASSUMING that the other universe magus created was a pocket universe or other things you named in your post. You have ZERO proof of this being the case and therefore I'm not sure what ground your trying to stand on. You also go on to say.. well the IG didn't create this other universe as if this matters.
1. Are you arguing that the IG can't create a universe? I'm sure you can't be arguing that as we've seen it happen on panel. Therefore whether it did or didn't is irrelevant. It could. Merging two SEPARATE universes together is a multiversal feat plain and simple my friend.
2. You claim you don't have to prove a negative when talking about whether it was or wasn't multi-eternity. How is this proving a negative. YOUR claiming it wasn't Multi-Eternity and therefore I'm asking for proof of this. The handbooks seem to point to it being multi-eternity. Now unless otherwise stated why are we to assume it wasn't. Simple logic and reason and handbooks dictate it was. Think about it... If there was ONE UNIVERSE of all other UNIVERSE to be concerned about being tampered with or destroyed it would be the 616 Universe correct? There should be no debating that fact. Now, we have someone threatening the 616 Universe and your logic tell you it was just a universal Eternity? I think logic and reason and on panel evidence speaks to the contrary of that friend.
2. You claim that Starlin knew of other universe yet used it singularly throughout the arc. Problem is with this statement is he didn't.. When I posted the quote about Thanos claiming he was God of not just THIS universe but ALL other universe. Your correct Starlin did know about other universe and made Thanos God of them all. Multiversal. You can call it a through away line all you want but that is just your way of skirting around on panel narration that contradicts your premise. I can't be thrown away and isn't a throw away line.
3. Your analogy of well if I have a handgun and I best someone with a rocket launcher that doesn't make a handgun more powerful. That analogy has no bearing on this conversation. When someone beats someone in a one v one encounter it certainly does prove that one side came out on top of the other. I agree it doesn't prove the scale of power is greater but for one v one purposes it does. I also agree with you that beating the UN inherently doesn't make it Multiversal because the UN is. However, couple that with all the other evidence presented and it fits perfectly with that being the case. THe IG with but a thought turn the energies of the MOST destructive weapon back on its user. The IG effortlessly manipulated the energy of your multiversal UN with ease. That does speak volumes. If the HANDGUN manipulated the Rocket Launcher to fire on to itself. Your damn right I would call the handgun more powerful.
Anyways man hope all is well. Thanks for the discussion on the matter.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi👆 After reading yours and Mr. Master's arguments I have changed my mind and do believe it's absolutely multiversal. Mr. Master also dropped three mega posts full of definitive proof of why it's multiversal.
Yes but ODG.. Your SPECULATING and ASSUMING that the other universe magus created was a pocket universe or other things you named in your post. You have ZERO proof of this being the case and therefore I'm not sure what ground your trying to stand on. You also go on to say.. well the IG didn't create this other universe as if this matters.1. Are you arguing that the IG can't create a universe? I'm sure you can't be arguing that as we've seen it happen on panel. Therefore whether it did or didn't is irrelevant. It could. Merging two SEPARATE universes together is a multiversal feat plain and simple my friend.
2. You claim you don't have to prove a negative when talking about whether it was or wasn't multi-eternity. How is this proving a negative. YOUR claiming it wasn't Multi-Eternity and therefore I'm asking for proof of this. The handbooks seem to point to it being multi-eternity. Now unless otherwise stated why are we to assume it wasn't. Simple logic and reason and handbooks dictate it was. Think about it... If there was ONE UNIVERSE of all other UNIVERSE to be concerned about being tampered with or destroyed it would be the 616 Universe correct? There should be no debating that fact. Now, we have someone threatening the 616 Universe and your logic tell you it was just a universal Eternity? I think logic and reason and on panel evidence speaks to the contrary of that friend.
2. You claim that Starlin knew of other universe yet used it singularly throughout the arc. Problem is with this statement is he didn't.. When I posted the quote about Thanos claiming he was God of not just THIS universe but ALL other universe. Your correct Starlin did know about other universe and made Thanos God of them all. Multiversal. You can call it a through away line all you want but that is just your way of skirting around on panel narration that contradicts your premise. I can't be thrown away and isn't a throw away line.
3. Your analogy of well if I have a handgun and I best someone with a rocket launcher that doesn't make a handgun more powerful. That analogy has no bearing on this conversation. When someone beats someone in a one v one encounter it certainly does prove that one side came out on top of the other. I agree it doesn't prove the scale of power is greater but for one v one purposes it does. I also agree with you that beating the UN inherently doesn't make it Multiversal because the UN is. However, couple that with all the other evidence presented and it fits perfectly with that being the case. THe IG with but a thought turn the energies of the MOST destructive weapon back on its user. The IG effortlessly manipulated the energy of your multiversal UN with ease. That does speak volumes. If the HANDGUN manipulated the Rocket Launcher to fire on to itself. Your damn right I would call the handgun more powerful.
Anyways man hope all is well. Thanks for the discussion on the matter.
Odg's statements have always been him grasping at straws.
^ Get over yourself.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi1) I'm arguing that it's just as viable an interpretation that this dark reflection reality was not a stand-alone 919-Universe. I don't know what incidents you're referring to where the IG created or demonstrated the ablity to create universes. Merging a dark reflection reality that the IG didn't even create and superimposing it onto the 616-Universe is not Multiversal. It's just manipulation of the single 616-Universe.
Yes but ODG.. Your SPECULATING and ASSUMING that the other universe magus created was a pocket universe or other things you named in your post. You have ZERO proof of this being the case and therefore I'm not sure what ground your trying to stand on. You also go on to say.. well the IG didn't create this other universe as if this matters.1. Are you arguing that the IG can't create a universe? I'm sure you can't be arguing that as we've seen it happen on panel. Therefore whether it did or didn't is irrelevant. It could. Merging two SEPARATE universes together is a multiversal feat plain and simple my friend.
2. You claim you don't have to prove a negative when talking about whether it was or wasn't multi-eternity. How is this proving a negative. YOUR claiming it wasn't Multi-Eternity and therefore I'm asking for proof of this. The handbooks seem to point to it being multi-eternity. Now unless otherwise stated why are we to assume it wasn't. Simple logic and reason and handbooks dictate it was. Think about it... If there was ONE UNIVERSE of all other UNIVERSE to be concerned about being tampered with or destroyed it would be the 616 Universe correct? There should be no debating that fact. Now, we have someone threatening the 616 Universe and your logic tell you it was just a universal Eternity? I think logic and reason and on panel evidence speaks to the contrary of that friend.
2. You claim that Starlin knew of other universe yet used it singularly throughout the arc. Problem is with this statement is he didn't.. When I posted the quote about Thanos claiming he was God of not just THIS universe but ALL other universe. Your correct Starlin did know about other universe and made Thanos God of them all. Multiversal. You can call it a through away line all you want but that is just your way of skirting around on panel narration that contradicts your premise. I can't be thrown away and isn't a throw away line.
3. Your analogy of well if I have a handgun and I best someone with a rocket launcher that doesn't make a handgun more powerful. That analogy has no bearing on this conversation. When someone beats someone in a one v one encounter it certainly does prove that one side came out on top of the other. I agree it doesn't prove the scale of power is greater but for one v one purposes it does. I also agree with you that beating the UN inherently doesn't make it Multiversal because the UN is. However, couple that with all the other evidence presented and it fits perfectly with that being the case. THe IG with but a thought turn the energies of the MOST destructive weapon back on its user. The IG effortlessly manipulated the energy of your multiversal UN with ease. That does speak volumes. If the HANDGUN manipulated the Rocket Launcher to fire on to itself. Your damn right I would call the handgun more powerful.
Anyways man hope all is well. Thanks for the discussion on the matter.
2) No. You asked me to prove it wasn't Multi-Eternity. That's asking me to prove a negative. My position has always been that this was 616 Eternity. I cited to how the scope of the story involves a single universe, only 616 Abstracts and 616 characters and so forth. Prove it was Multi-Eternity. The only thing you have is a throw-away line from Infinity Quest and handbooks in the face of this overwhelming on-panel evidence.
2) I can't even count how many times Starlin wrote about universe, in the singular. I'll say, several dozen times. You can't possibly ignore that if you're going to mince about words so precisely. That mountain of evidence against your throw-away line that could very reasonably be interepreted to be pocket universes/dimensions/realms (especially when we don't even see alternate universes/abstracts/characters being depicted). An equitable balance of the evidence makes any mincing over words an aspect of the story that is overwhelmingly in my favor.
3) I don't care about individual matchups. The argument has always been about which artifact has a greater proven scope of power. As for trying to tweak the rocket/handgun analogy I presented, then you just think about Black Alice vs. Spectre or Dr. Doom vs. Silver Surfer. Simply having the ability to manipulate energies (and in these two cases, outright strip them entirely) does not inform you at all about whether or not Black Alice or Dr. Doom are more powerful than Spectre or Surfer respectively. To come to that conclusion is absurd. Why? Because we know that, when it comes down to scope of power levels, Spectre and Surfer have undeniably performed feats that completely outstrip Black Alice's and Dr. Doom's own feats. And here, we know that the UN has undeniably performed a feat that completely outstrips IG's own feats.
Likewise, bro.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Get over yourself. [b]1) I'm arguing that it's just as viable an interpretation that this dark reflection reality was not a stand-alone 919-Universe. I don't know what incidents you're referring to where the IG created or demonstrated the ablity to create universes. Merging a dark reflection reality that the IG didn't even create and superimposing it onto the 616-Universe is not Multiversal. It's just manipulation of the single 616-Universe.2) No. You asked me to prove it wasn't Multi-Eternity. That's asking me to prove a negative. My position has always been that this was 616 Eternity. I cited to how the scope of the story involves a single universe, only 616 Abstracts and 616 characters and so forth. Prove it was Multi-Eternity. The only thing you have is a throw-away line from Infinity Quest and handbooks in the face of this overwhelming on-panel evidence.
2) I can't even count how many times Starlin wrote about universe, in the singular. I'll say, several dozen times. You can't possibly ignore that if you're going to mince about words so precisely. That mountain of evidence against your throw-away line that could very reasonably be interepreted to be pocket universes/dimensions/realms (especially when we don't even see alternate universes/abstracts/characters being depicted). An equitable balance of the evidence makes any mincing over words an aspect of the story that is overwhelmingly in my favor.
3) I don't care about individual matchups. The argument has always been about which artifact has a greater proven scope of power. As for trying to tweak the rocket/handgun analogy I presented, then you just think about Black Alice vs. Spectre or Dr. Doom vs. Silver Surfer. Simply having the ability to manipulate energies (and in these two cases, outright strip them entirely) does not inform you at all about whether or not Black Alice or Dr. Doom are more powerful than Spectre or Surfer respectively. To come to that conclusion is absurd. Why? Because we know that, when it comes down to scope of power levels, Spectre and Surfer have undeniably performed feats that completely outstrip Black Alice's and Dr. Doom's own feats. And here, we know that the UN has undeniably performed a feat that completely outstrips IG's own feats.
Likewise, bro. [/B]
I will address some of this later but dammit ODG answer that PM I sent you lol 😄
