Okay... If you read the entire quasar series...
it talks about divergent timelines and other universes... and that the 616 quasar travelled throughout these timelines and in fact into the greater omniverse...That the In these other universes throughout the multiverse... there were other timelines.. one in which korvac fired the ultimate nullifier and wiped out that reality..
and during the ig saga... eternity states that he was trying to reclaim his reality (singular)... eternity views only the lt as his peer, the lt is stated as being the judge of all realities (plural), thanos says he is the supreme being of his reality (singular), the watcher shows us that he watches myriad realities (plural) that exist along the same timeline as ours. and that in another reality where maelstrom decided to face off against thanos with the ig, maelstrom was his equal in that reality (singular), and that maelstrom and thanos were omnipotent.
. in one the difference was that when maelstrom confronts thanos... they fought... and in that universe.. the watcher stated that maelstrom was equally as formidable as thanos..and quasar states that maelstrom was omnipotent and thanos was maelstroms equal...
The living tribunal refuses to act on thanos gaining the ig because all it does is allow thanos to usurp eternities role... as supreme being of the universe...
when lt acts against warlock.. eternity refers to his universe... his reality... lt states he represents powers that dwarf the ig... he tells warlock that to challenge lt is to lay waste to warlock's reality..
and during the tribunal... eternity states: "That if this were not a visualization of his totality the gauntlets effect would have been nonexistent." warlock states over and over again that he gained control/supreme power of this reality/universe.
as to the abraxas feat...abraxas states that he has killed galactus's across the multiverse.. galactus himself says that this time/this day can only end one way.... (although as an interesting side note, during the abraxas saga reed notes that his incredible intelligence appears to have been derived by exposure to the cosmic rays". as to the un... reed says "to realign all that is - we needed to end all that was"... that eternity put a galactus in each reality... and that when one, our galactus died, the doors to the multiverse became unhinged.. and abraxas was freed.
so.... in all this is my current argument.
in all the multiverse there is but one living tribunal.. he rules over the whole damn omniverse... so thats like ruling a whole continent..
eternity represents each timeline, and all timelines at the same time, of a multiverse... Thats like a country in a continent.... you may be able to overtake a single aspect/timeline/reality of eternity but not the whole thing... its like being in a country where a small province has been overtaken by a warlord trying to take a small state for himself.. whereas eternity has greater overall power... the powerbase of this little tyrant bastard is too strong to supplant him..
the un ended all there was, the multiversal eternity... to realign all realities..so someone fired a damn nuke that was big enough to wipe out not only the province... but the whole damn country...
now as to the ig vs the un... the un may be able to wipe out the whole country... (all timelines... hence all realities, hence all aspects of eternity)... but a user of an ig...knowing the attack is coming can prevent getting himself wiped out by setting proper defenses... (a bomb shelter)
now i set up a bunch of analogies.. when what i'm saying is that the un has a feat showing it affected the entire multiverse at once in a single shot...
The best feat from the ig can at best be described as affecting two realities/timelines at one time. Whereas the best feat from the UN's best feat has it affecting an infinite number of realities/timelines at once...
infinite > 2.
i'd like to say..
in terms of scope of power... the un has the better feat...
in terms of range of powers.. the ig has the un beat..
^ Basically works for me. Nice. 👆
Originally posted by quanchi112Please. I invited you to drop the subject, not change the subject to deflect from your misstatements. You said Maelstrom wasn't abstract-level, he was. Get over it.
Yes, he wasn't at Oblivion's level till the end of the arc. Do you think he was more powerful before he became Oblivion's avatar?His meaning the abraxas storyline, the un's power level in this story I have not rejected.
Not a misunderstanding another spin you're attempting. Not going to happen.
Then you haven't said anything of substance if you do not deny the UN's power level. Which is exponentially far greater than the IG's. On-panel.
Your opinion on whether the IG is limitless power and my rejection of that opinion is not a "spin." If you're attempting to go ***-for-tat with me then keep your recollection of our statements straight and stop confusing yourself. Otherwise you're posting for the sake of posting and merely painting some veneer of substance over what is essentially, "Nuh uh." Stop wasting electrons if that's all you really are saying.
Originally posted by quanchi112If you meant multiverse than you're wrong. Being able to extend creative/destructive/manipulative forces onto the entire multiverse instantly is evidence of grater power than being able to do that universally. Don't project the confusion you cause through your incoherent terminology onto me.
I meant multiverse. Are you attempting more humor or were you seriously confused.No, it has nothing to do with no limits it just shows that Maelstrom was possibly immune to it's power no matter what level it achieves. But we only saw one blast so let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
The point is Eternity sought the ig while the un has always been in existence. A functioning ig wasn't in the story with abraxas while a functioning un was in a story in infinity gauntlet.
It's obvious which artifact this writer favored. Keep highlighting a story which didn't have a functioning ig in it to sell your desperate case.
Yes. If you say the IG has limitless power over anything, and something proves immune, then that is a limit. And that is evidence that affirmatively dispels your already illogical reliance on a no limits fallacy.
The IG wasn't supposed to function when Rune/Loki obtained it (or Magus for that matter), but it did anyway. Acting like this completely barred later writers from using it again is a false distinction. Had anybody thought it could be multiversally relevant, it would have been used. They didn't, so it wasn't. Multiversal storylines shouldn't be limited to universal artifacts. You just need to deal with the fact that the story demanded something more.
And it's obvious, Starlin had no idea what the UN would be capable of. Similar to how Starlin didn't really know what Infinity Gems were capable of when he first introduced them (as the Soul Gems). They were limited to being a power source capable of blowing up stars, until, in a later storyline, he decided to change their limited scope to a much more expanded scope. Sorry, but that's exactly what happened in the Abraxas storyline, where a writer came in and changed its limited scope of straight nullification to instantaneous multiversal nullification/recreation/manipulation. Get over it.
Originally posted by Mr MasterFlip-flopping presumes that you've changed your stance. And now it's unclear what you're doing with your waffling above. If it is just an observation of "another possibility," then I need not bother pointing out how utterly incorrect that observation is. No need to argue for the sake of arguing.
Everyone knows I'm practically the guy who brought to light (in this forum before you joined) the UN wacking the Multiverse in the Abraxas arc, so ... flip flopping my ass.I believe I have the right to change my opinion, based on further realized facts.
In any case, it was just an observation (another possibility if you will)and yes, it is just an opinion.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I made it perfectly clear what I meant by abstract level in that story. He later became Oblivion's avatar so when I stated that is was always clear what I meant.
^ Basically works for me. Nice. 👆 Please. I invited you to drop the subject, not change the subject to deflect from your misstatements. You said Maelstrom wasn't abstract-level, he was. Get over it.Then you haven't said anything of substance if you do not deny the UN's power level. Which is exponentially far greater than the IG's. On-panel.
Your opinion on whether the IG is limitless power and my rejection of that opinion is not a "spin." If you're attempting to go ***-for-tat with me then keep your recollection of our statements straight and stop confusing yourself. Otherwise you're posting for the sake of posting and merely painting some veneer of substance over what is essentially, "Nuh uh." Stop wasting electrons if that's all you really are saying.If you meant multiverse than you're wrong. Being able to extend creative/destructive/manipulative forces onto the entire multiverse instantly is evidence of grater power than being able to do that universally. Don't project the confusion you cause through your incoherent terminology onto me.
Yes. If you say the IG has limitless power over anything, and something proves immune, then that is a limit. And that is evidence that affirmatively dispels your already illogical reliance on a no limits fallacy.
The IG wasn't supposed to function when Rune/Loki obtained it (or Magus for that matter), but it did anyway. Acting like this completely barred later writers from using it again is a false distinction. Had anybody thought it could be multiversally relevant, it would have been used. They didn't, so it wasn't. Multiversal storylines shouldn't be limited to universal artifacts. You just need to deal with the fact that the story demanded something more.
And it's obvious, Starlin had no idea what the UN would be capable of. Similar to how Starlin didn't really know what Infinity Gems were capable of when he first introduced them (as the Soul Gems). They were limited to being a power source capable of blowing up stars, until, in a later storyline, he decided to change their limited scope to a much more expanded scope. Sorry, but that's exactly what happened in the Abraxas storyline, where a writer came in and changed its limited scope of straight nullification to instantaneous multiversal nullification/recreation/manipulation. Get over it. Flip-flopping presumes that you've changed your stance. And now it's unclear what you're doing with your waffling above. If it is just an observation of "another possibility," then I need not bother pointing out how utterly incorrect that observation is. No need to argue for the sake of arguing.
it isn't greater than the ig nor have you proven it so. We've had one writer compare the two on panel while we've had another writer put forth an impressive feat by the un which has nothing to do with the ig.
It does have limitless power yet that power might not affect someone with specific immunity to that power. We didn't see enough of a confrontation to put that theory to the test either way.
Being multiversal doesn't in itself imply a power superiority over something universal in nature.
No, he didn't. More or less loeb had no idea what the un was capable of and tried to make his story bigger. He's also shown an inconsistency within his own characters and stories. Acting like he's aware of the situation is kinda funny considering his track record.
^ You only came up with that excuse that you only meant Oblivion-level conveniently AFTER being proven utterly wrong. And nobody has used the term "abstract" to only apply to Oblivion-level. I don't care what you're pretending to be doing. Because in this thread, you already applied the term "abstract" to include others other than Oblivion-level ones. So seriously, you're not fooling anybody.
It's on-panel proven so. Don't project your own fantasties onto Starlin's writing, k? And any projection has already been utterly dispelled by the Abraxas storyline. Get over it.
If it can't affect somebody, than it doesn't have "limitless power." And relying on labels of "limitless power" in the face of this limitation, should close the casket on your no limit fallacy arguments.
Instantly nullifying/recreating/manipulating the Marvel Multiverse does imply a power superiority over something universal. Get over it.
Don't project what you're trying to do with the IG onto Loeb. You don't like it, write Joe Quesada to retcon Abraxas. Until then, IDLI, IDH doesn't suffice to dispel what occurred on-panel.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Basically works for me. Nice. 👆 Please. I invited you to drop the subject, not change the subject to deflect from your misstatements. You said Maelstrom wasn't abstract-level, he was. Get over it.Then you haven't said anything of substance if you do not deny the UN's power level. Which is exponentially far greater than the IG's. On-panel.
Your opinion on whether the IG is limitless power and my rejection of that opinion is not a "spin." If you're attempting to go ***-for-tat with me then keep your recollection of our statements straight and stop confusing yourself. Otherwise you're posting for the sake of posting and merely painting some veneer of substance over what is essentially, "Nuh uh." Stop wasting electrons if that's all you really are saying.If you meant multiverse than you're wrong. Being able to extend creative/destructive/manipulative forces onto the entire multiverse instantly is evidence of grater power than being able to do that universally. Don't project the confusion you cause through your incoherent terminology onto me.
Yes. If you say the IG has limitless power over anything, and something proves immune, then that is a limit. And that is evidence that affirmatively dispels your already illogical reliance on a no limits fallacy.
The IG wasn't supposed to function when Rune/Loki obtained it (or Magus for that matter), but it did anyway. Acting like this completely barred later writers from using it again is a false distinction. Had anybody thought it could be multiversally relevant, it would have been used. They didn't, so it wasn't. Multiversal storylines shouldn't be limited to universal artifacts. You just need to deal with the fact that the story demanded something more.
And it's obvious, Starlin had no idea what the UN would be capable of. Similar to how Starlin didn't really know what Infinity Gems were capable of when he first introduced them (as the Soul Gems). They were limited to being a power source capable of blowing up stars, until, in a later storyline, he decided to change their limited scope to a much more expanded scope. Sorry, but that's exactly what happened in the Abraxas storyline, where a writer came in and changed its limited scope of straight nullification to instantaneous multiversal nullification/recreation/manipulation. Get over it. Flip-flopping presumes that you've changed your stance. And now it's unclear what you're doing with your waffling above. If it is just an observation of "another possibility," then I need not bother pointing out how utterly incorrect that observation is. No need to argue for the sake of arguing.
Funny how this works for you when I've said that same thing how many times? I've said the UN has a feat greater in scale.. while the IG has a greater scope. Haven't I?
What we've been arguing about is... How YOU define superior and the issues I have with that. Logical and sound issues with examples have been presented. That and whether the IG is at least multiuniversal or multiversal have also been arguments. The point is I've said that EXACT same thing and first, but no thumbs up and agreement. lol
Originally posted by OneDumbG0No, that's what I always meant. It was clear from the start while you got confused. You knew what I meant.
^ You only came up with that excuse that you only meant Oblivion-level conveniently AFTER being proven utterly wrong. And nobody has used the term "abstract" to only apply to Oblivion-level. I don't care what you're pretending to be doing. Because in this thread, you already applied the term "abstract" to include others other than Oblivion-level ones. So seriously, you're not fooling anybody.It's on-panel proven so. Don't project your own fantasties onto Starlin's writing, k? And any projection has already been utterly dispelled by the Abraxas storyline. Get over it.
If it can't affect somebody, than it doesn't have "limitless power." And relying on labels of "limitless power" in the face of this limitation, should close the casket on your no limit fallacy arguments.
Instantly nullifying/recreating/manipulating the Marvel Multiverse does imply a power superiority over something universal. Get over it.
Don't project what you're trying to do with the IG onto Loeb. You don't like it, write Joe Quesada to retcon Abraxas. Until then, IDLI, IDH doesn't suffice to dispel what occurred on-panel.
No, it just has an impressive feat which in no way implies a superiority in power with regards to the ig.
In comics that's all well and good but he has a specific immunity to this reality not that Thanos isn't powerful enough to affect him. We only saw one minor blast anyways and this wouldn't have even affected eternity. I have crushed this ridiculous stance of yours ten pages back.
It wasn't even proven it can't affect him on panel. One blast doesn't equal total immunity to the ig and it's power.
Not really. In fact not at all.
You brought the writers into this and it so happens the writer who penciled the un feat also has his pet character killing the grandmaster with a few punches while struggling with wolverine a few issues later.
^ No. It's clear that you always have used the term "abstract" to describe more than just Oblivion-level. So enough with the sob story and excuses. You were wrong. Whatever. Not the end of the world.
Get it straight, it wasn't just an impressive feat. It was an exponentially superior feat which the IG hasn't made any demonstration of approaching. Ever.
You crushed your own no limit fallacies by relying on handbooks which completely dispel that the IG has no limitations.
Sounds familiar. Since manipulating a tiny sphere of nullification doesn't equal superiority over the UN's exponentially greater power.
Good that your conserving electrons. Next time shorten that to, "Nuh uh!" It has exactly the same substance.
And it just so happens that you need to get over it. UN >>>>>>>>>>>> IG.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0No, you misunderstood by what I meant. I forgive you.
^ No. It's clear that you always have used the term "abstract" to describe more than just Oblivion-level. So enough with the sob story and excuses. You were wrong. Whatever. Not the end of the world.Get it straight, it wasn't just an impressive feat. It was an exponentially superior feat which the IG hasn't made any demonstration of approaching. Ever.
You crushed your own no limit fallacies by relying on handbooks which completely dispel that the IG has no limitations.
Sounds familiar. Since manipulating a tiny sphere of nullification doesn't equal superiority over the UN's exponentially greater power.
Good that your conserving electrons. Next time shorten that to, "Nuh uh!" It has exactly the same substance.
And it just so happens that you need to get over it. UN >>>>>>>>>>>> IG.
Ig never attempted it while on panel the ig dwarfed it in comparison.
Having a specific immunity to something doesn't imply a lack of power.
Yes, it does. It means you control the un's power.
Ig>>>>>un on panel. Un did a really neat thing in 2001 under Loeb. That's about it. You need to get over the fact the ig wasn't used in this story and the story didn't make it clear to anyone save you that it's now more powerful than ig.
Originally posted by quanchi112Seriously, you don't have the reputation nor the credibility to even pretend like you didn't just try to take back what you said. It's pathetic. Learn to forgive yourself for typing without thinking and this wouldn't be an issue.
No, you misunderstood by what I meant. I forgive you.Ig never attempted it while on panel the ig dwarfed it in comparison.
Having a specific immunity to something doesn't imply a lack of power.
Yes, it does. It means you control the un's power.
Ig>>>>>un on panel. Un did a really neat thing in 2001 under Loeb. That's about it. You need to get over the fact the ig wasn't used in this story and the story didn't make it clear to anyone save you that it's now more powerful than ig.
Negative proof fallacy doesn't work any better than a no limit fallacy. And lying out of the side of your mouth about the UN's and IG's feats doesn't prove your argument. It just evinces your desperation.
Technically you're right. It doesn't imply that the IG's power isn't limitless. It outright proves it.
It means you control a tiny sphere of nullification. Same as Human Torch controls a tiny portion of Firelord's heat. And analagous to your own tired excuses over how Maelstrom only was immune to a tiny casual blast. Your own logic, this entire time.
The stink of desperation is apparent. But what can I expect? Your reliance on no limit fallacies, negative proof fallacies and double-standards is specifically unremediable. It's a shame you can't just slink into the shadows of obscurity like the IG has when it comes to multiversality.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I made it clear. You failed to comprehend what I meant. No problem. Don't worry about it.
Seriously, you don't have the reputation nor the credibility to even pretend like you didn't just try to take back what you said. It's pathetic. Learn to forgive yourself for typing without thinking and this wouldn't be an issue.Negative proof fallacy doesn't work any better than a no limit fallacy. And lying out of the side of your mouth about the UN's and IG's feats doesn't prove your argument. It just evinces your desperation.
Technically you're right. It doesn't imply that the IG's power isn't limitless. It outright proves it.
It means you control a tiny sphere of nullification. Same as Human Torch controls a tiny portion of Firelord's heat. And analagous to your own tired excuses over how Maelstrom only was immune to a tiny casual blast. Your own logic, this entire time.
The stink of desperation is apparent. But what can I expect? Your reliance on no limit fallacies, negative proof fallacies and double-standards is specifically unremediable. It's a shame you can't just slink into the shadows of obscurity like the IG has when it comes to multiversality.
Keep distancing yourself from the comparisons between the two on panel.
So you're saying the black hole which killed Maelstrom is more powerful than the ig? Is this what you are saying?
Answer me this. Is an ig blast the most power an ig user can bring to bear?
No, you equated this blast as equal to ig's full might.
Again, on panel it's made pretty clear. Keep clinging to loeb writing and speaking of credibility if it's one thing loeb doesn't have it's that. You were foolish enough to bring the writers into this.
^ You made it clear throughout this thread that when you use the term "abstract," you mean all the Abstracts, without limitation. You only pretended to clarify that you limit its use to Oblivion-level (something nobody does) AFTER I pointed out you were talking out of your a$$ to try to cover up that you were, in fact, talking out of your a$$.
Yeah. The on-panel comparison is UN instantly destroys/recreates/manipulates Marvel Multiverse >>>>>>>> IG taking over single 616 universe.
So you're saying you're just straw-manning me? Is this what you are saying?
Answer me this. Is a tiny sphere of nullifcation the most power the UN can bring to bear?
No, you keep projecting onto me that I said this blast as equal to full ig's might.
Again, on panel it's made pretty clear. Keep clinging to pre-2001 writing and speaking of taking the present into account if it's one thing you don't have it's that. You were foolish enough to ignore this.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I referred to him as abstract level when he was his avatar. Reread the thread.
^ You made it clear throughout this thread that when you use the term "abstract," you mean all the Abstracts, without limitation. You only pretended to clarify that you limit its use to Oblivion-level (something nobody does) AFTER I pointed out you were talking out of your a$$ to try to cover up that you were, in fact, talking out of your a$$.Yeah. The on-panel comparison is UN instantly destroys/recreates/manipulates Marvel Multiverse >>>>>>>> IG taking over single 616 universe.
So you're saying you're just straw-manning me? Is this what you are saying?
Answer me this. Is a tiny sphere of nullifcation the most power the UN can bring to bear?
No, you keep projecting onto me that I said this blast as equal to full ig's might.
Again, on panel it's made pretty clear. Keep clinging to pre-2001 writing and speaking of taking the present into account if it's one thing you don't have it's that. You were foolish enough to ignore this.
Affecting more than one universe doesn't mean you are more powerful than a power which only functions in one universe. It's flawed logic.
I am picking apart your logic and showing you don't understand what the word immunity means.
It produces the same effect when something is targeted for being destroyed. If it's target is Galactus or the Beyonder it produces the same effect regardless of the size of the character.
Then if you admit it isn't then you admit the Maelstrom showing is moot.
I cam going by how these two items have stacked up on panel.
^ I did reread it. And pretend as much as you want, but just from the backdrop/context of you using "abstract" to mean all the Abstracts throughout this thread... it's quite obvious: You only concocted that qualification after being proved wrong to cover up being wrong. There's a difference between the obvious truth as displayed by your actions and the truth you purport is reliable.
Instantly nullifying/recreating/manipulating the Marvel Multiverse does mean you are more powerful than a power which only functions in one universe. Cogent logic which you keep trying to deflect from.
You're picking apart your own logic when you bring up handbooks and Maelstrom's immunity to what you professed was a limitless power. It's not limitless by the very definition of the word, since it's power is limited to things it can and cannot affect. Again, you managed to affirmatively dispel your own no limit fallacy. That takes talent.
Nullifying something is not the same effect as nullifying/recreating/manipulating it. Slight difference, slick.
No sh1t, Sherlock. Because the underlying rationale that "a direct confrontation is better proof than feats" is absolutely retarded when you're dealing with plot device, circumstances and exponentially greater feats in comparison. Are you still not getting that in you're desperate shooting at the Maelstrom v. IG Thanos rationale, you've been shooting at your own Magus v Quasar rationale this entire time?
Yeah, stacking them up on-panel, we have this: UN instantly nullifies/recreates/manipulates entire Marvel Multiverse >>>>>>>>> IG taking over single 616 universe.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Again, you knew what I meant. Acting cute is about the only thing you have left in this thread. I took your self respect a long time ago.
^ I did reread it. And pretend as much as you want, but just from the backdrop/context of you using "abstract" to mean all the Abstracts throughout this thread... it's quite obvious: You only concocted that qualification after being proved wrong to cover up being wrong. There's a difference between the obvious truth as displayed by your actions and the truth you purport is reliable.Instantly nullifying/recreating/manipulating the Marvel Multiverse does mean you are more powerful than a power which only functions in one universe. Cogent logic which you keep trying to deflect from.
You're picking apart your own logic when you bring up handbooks and Maelstrom's immunity to what you professed was a limitless power. It's not limitless by the very definition of the word, since it's power is limited to things it can and cannot affect. Again, you managed to affirmatively dispel your own no limit fallacy. That takes talent.
Nullifying something is not the same effect as nullifying/recreating/manipulating it. Slight difference, slick.
No sh1t, Sherlock. Because the underlying rationale that "a direct confrontation is better proof than feats" is absolutely retarded when you're dealing with plot device, circumstances and exponentially greater feats in comparison. Are you still not getting that in you're desperate shooting at the Maelstrom v. IG Thanos rationale, you've been shooting at your own Magus v Quasar rationale this entire time?
Yeah, stacking them up on-panel, we have this: UN instantly nullifies/recreates/manipulates entire Marvel Multiverse >>>>>>>>> IG taking over single 616 universe.
No, it doesn't. it just means your power can reach a wider range.
You never proved it was completely immune. In comics you can have an immunity to something with no limits. you can also have varying levels of infinity. Quit trying to apply real world logic to the manner in which these powers are described here.
Ok and?
Because I have weighed in on the circumstances of all sides here. Thanos with the ig was more powerful than Maelstrom and the un. One blast is hardly the best it can warrant. Maelstrom pissing all over the multiverse wouldn't change the fact the ig is more powerful than he was.
Again, reaching the multiverse doesn't prove you are more powerful than someone whose power is exclusive in just one universe.