Originally posted by JakeTheBankAnyone from team 1 beats her. They can do it quickly too due to her durability and weaker strength.
How so? Between her comparable physical stats, skills, standard equipment, I can't see how she's the "weak link" to the point of being the reason why her team loses. I'd say Team 2 is solid as is.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Anyone from team 1 beats her. They can do it quickly too due to her durability and weaker strength.
No, they really can't. Her strength is reasonably close to theirs. Her durability is in the same league. Less against blades, but still, she's really tough and has a healing factor, and none of them have blades. Plus she has her bracers which makes her, defensively, one of the top two on the field, and only Thor might be in her HtH skill league.
Want to see Superman trying to take her out fast with everything he's got? Read Sacrifice.
Her fight with Captain Marvel back in war of the gods? Draw, they were even in strength. Her fights with Superman? Generally draws. Superman eventually beats her unless he makes a mistake, but it's a long painful process.
Originally posted by Q99Yeah, she needed to hide from him because he already ko'd her once and snapped her wrists. She used animals and such to buy time so she could escape. Not a showing I would bring up arguing for WW. She also comments on how he is too strong.
No, they really can't. Her strength is reasonably close to theirs. Her durability is in the same league. Less against blades, but still, she's really tough and has a healing factor, and none of them have blades. Plus she has her bracers which makes her, defensively, one of the top two on the field, and only Thor might be in her HtH skill league.Want to see Superman trying to take her out fast with everything he's got? Read Sacrifice.
Her fight with Captain Marvel back in war of the gods? Draw, they were even in strength. Her fights with Superman? Generally draws. Superman eventually beats her unless he makes a mistake, but it's a long painful process.
Teah, anyone on team 1 has the goods to beat her and soundly imo.
To powerful, more durable, and stronger than her.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yeah, she needed to hide from him because he already ko'd her once and snapped her wrists. She used animals and such to buy time so she could escape. Not a showing I would bring up arguing for WW. She also comments on how he is too strong.Teah, anyone on team 1 has the goods to beat her and soundly imo.
To powerful, more durable, and stronger than her.
How is it not impressive? Considering that Superman was enraged and bloodlusted, Diana surviving, let alone being able to damage Superman is impressive. Their intent was completely different from each other. Superman, thinking she was DD and had killed Lois, wanted nothing more than to put her out of his misery. Conversely, Diana was putting enough effort forth to survive and try and stop Lord from controlling him. If she wanted to kill him, she could have with her tiara.
No one is arguing that Diana beats anyone on team 1 for a majority, but she's more than capable of holding her own and being a serious threat in the the process. It all depends on how goes after WW, in my opinion anyway. The only really bad match for her is Surfer, and even then, not to the point that she's useless.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yeah, she needed to hide from him because he already ko'd her once and snapped her wrists. She used animals and such to buy time so she could escape. Not a showing I would bring up arguing for WW. She also comments on how he is too strong.Teah, anyone on team 1 has the goods to beat her and soundly imo.
To powerful, more durable, and stronger than her.
Quan, you cant accept one thing and not accept the other.
She defeated Superman twice in that comic. The first time was when they were fighting and she whipped that a** and flew off to max lord because she didnt want to kill Superman (and she admitted that she was holding back) and the second time was when Superman flew to aid max lord and she used her superior reflexes, snatched her tiara off and cut Supermans throat before he had the time to react.
Now if you are calling THAT fight pis or saying that THATS not a showing that Wonder Woman can defeat Superman then you need to accept it when people say that Thanos didnt hold his own against odin then since Wonder Woman showing against Supes is more obvious than Thanos showing against Odin.
You cant accept one without the other.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How is it not impressive? Considering that Superman was enraged and bloodlusted, Diana surviving, let alone being able to damage Superman is impressive. Their intent was completely different from each other. Superman, thinking she was DD and had killed Lois, wanted nothing more than to put her out of his misery. Conversely, Diana was putting enough effort forth to survive and try and stop Lord from controlling him. If she wanted to kill him, she could have with her tiara.No one is arguing that Diana beats anyone on team 1 for a majority, but she's more than capable of holding her own and being a serious threat in the the process. It all depends on how goes after WW, in my opinion anyway. The only really bad match for her is Surfer, and even then, not to the point that she's useless.
Quan is the only one that feels like this (beside a couple of other Superman fans, dont want to say any names) and thats because he doesnt like Wonder Woman.
He would never give her credit, even if she defeated Supes a second time.
Originally posted by carver9
Quan, you cant accept one thing and not accept the other.She defeated Superman twice in that comic. The first time was when they were fighting and she whipped that a** and flew off to max lord because she didnt want to kill Superman (and she admitted that she was holding back) and the second time was when Superman flew to aid max lord and she used her superior reflexes, snatched her tiara off and cut Supermans throat before he had the time to react.
Now if you are calling THAT fight pis or saying that THATS not a showing that Wonder Woman can defeat Superman then you need to accept it when people say that Thanos didnt hold his own against odin then since Wonder Woman showing against Supes is more obvious than Thanos showing against Odin.
You cant accept one without the other.
Thank you. Quan's bias is in overdrive tonight; he's even starting to mis-state things from the issue he's citing. But let someone say anything negative about Thor (whom I have liked for over 30 years) or Thanos, and, well...
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How is it not impressive? Considering that Superman was enraged and bloodlusted, Diana surviving, let alone being able to damage Superman is impressive. Their intent was completely different from each other. Superman, thinking she was DD and had killed Lois, wanted nothing more than to put her out of his misery. Conversely, Diana was putting enough effort forth to survive and try and stop Lord from controlling him. If she wanted to kill him, she could have with her tiara.No one is arguing that Diana beats anyone on team 1 for a majority, but she's more than capable of holding her own and being a serious threat in the the process. It all depends on how goes after WW, in my opinion anyway. The only really bad match for her is Surfer, and even then, not to the point that she's useless.
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Originally posted by carver9No, she fought him off long enough to escape the situation. She threw the tiara into his throat when he showed up.
Quan, you cant accept one thing and not accept the other.She defeated Superman twice in that comic. The first time was when they were fighting and she whipped that a** and flew off to max lord because she didnt want to kill Superman (and she admitted that she was holding back) and the second time was when Superman flew to aid max lord and she used her superior reflexes, snatched her tiara off and cut Supermans throat before he had the time to react.
Now if you are calling THAT fight pis or saying that THATS not a showing that Wonder Woman can defeat Superman then you need to accept it when people say that Thanos didnt hold his own against odin then since Wonder Woman showing against Supes is more obvious than Thanos showing against Odin.
You cant accept one without the other.
Thanos didn't need to avoid or use birds to peck Odin's eyes out to take him on. Thanos earned his respect and yet he wasn't even defeated.
Supes showed he's far too strong for her to take too many all out blows from him. She can't take him head on.
Originally posted by tideoftimeWhat did I mis state?
Thank you. Quan's bias is in overdrive tonight; he's even starting to mis-state things from the issue he's citing. But let someone say anything negative about Thor (whom I have liked for over 30 years) or Thanos, and, well...
He only broke one of her wrists, not both (and this, contextually, was to demonstrate that she was much tougher than years before, when he broke her arm); she wasn't "hiding" -- she was re-orienting herself to get in position to deliver what she (presumably) hoped would be a disorienting blow via her bracers -- which is was, as she was able to combo some follow up blows; she did not say he was "too strong", she said he was "so strong" -- before that fight, in other battles, and in situations since (such as Amazons Attack), Diana has demonstrated as being nearly as strong as Clark -- you're taking her acknowledging his great strength as somehow saying she is much weaker than him.
Those examples...
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, she fought him off long enough to escape the situation. She threw the tiara into his throat when he showed up.
And this isn't impressive? Diana had no intention of fighting a bloodlusted mindcontrolled Superman (who would?); she wanted to get to the heart of the source: Max Lord. If Diana didn't really give a shit about Kal, do you think she couldn't have killed him? The simple fact that Superman was trying to kill her and couldn't seal the deal while Diana was trying her best to restrain him long enough to get to Lord is impressive to me. What does Wonder Woman have to do to impress you?
Not to mention that Diana is shown to consistantly hold her own against Superman and Captain Marvel as well as heralded as one of the top four physically most powerful heroes on the planet next to them and J'onn. Like I said, against a prolonged battle, most will agree Superman beats Diana, but it's not a stomp. I'm not accusing of you this, Quan, but a lot of people here really underestimate Diana just because she doesn't stomp all over Superman, when most high heralds simply can't stomp all over him.
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, she fought him off long enough to escape the situation. She threw the tiara into his throat when he showed up.Thanos didn't need to avoid or use birds to peck Odin's eyes out to take him on. Thanos earned his respect and yet he wasn't even defeated.
Supes showed he's far too strong for her to take too many all out blows from him. She can't take him head on.
What did I mis state?
Quan, its pointless to debate against you because your mind is made up but I'm going to try one more time.
Her using her speed in combat against Supes is within her power. If she was moving to fast for Supes to find her then thats just how it is. Why wouldnt she disappear in battle if its well within her ability to do it? She was moving fast, Superman was unable to sense her, and she tagged him in the ears. Thats basically stating that flash need to slow down in battle so that the other person can see and hit him.
Do you really know the reason on why she called the birds? Did you read the comic because it was stated in that comic why she did that? She didnt use the birds to fight Superman, she used them as a distraction because she didnt want to kill Superman, she wanted to stop max lord.
Now answer this, if she would have stayed there and fought Superman without calling the birds, without fleeing, wouldnt her mission been pointless. Either Superman would have died or she would have died and max lord would have won.
When did Superman show that he was too strong for her? I didnt see that anywhere in that fight. He snapped her wrist, that shouldnt be something hard for either Superman nor Wonder woman to do.
She slit Superman throat and he was helpless. If she wanted, she could have killed him right there when he was holding his neck. Again, Wonder Woman used her Superior speed and overwhelmed Superman. She shouldnt have to slow down to make a fight better for you to like.
Avoiding and using your superior speed is two different things.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yeah, she needed to hide from him because he already ko'd her once and snapped her wrists. She used animals and such to buy time so she could escape. Not a showing I would bring up arguing for WW. She also comments on how he is too strong.
Yea, you wouldn't bring up a showing... where she won? And fought him for quite awhile. Sure, it was something of a back and forth, degrading stalemate, until she got the opening to use the tiara, but she made that opening, and it's her tiara. That's like complaining, "Sure, Superman beat Mongul, but only because he flew and used heatvision."
Yes, he's very strong, strong enough that she does not want to take those hits, but that was him in full-out Lois death rage. She was even holding back a little, she commented. Yea, sure, she'll break combat at times to regroup and re-engage on better terms, but she makes those openings with her powers and then regains the initiative.
Then there's her time against DoomsdaySuperman (Superman enchanted by Circe to be lost in rage, covered in Doomsday spikes), where she didn't even get her lasso to start off with because Silver Swan stole it.
There's no way she's being taken out fast, which has been proven on a half-dozen occasions. Sure, she'll *eventually* lose due to his power advantage most of the time, unless he leaves an opening like in Sacrifice, but it's always a slow, hard process. Every time.
Now, throw in Firelord to that fight. It goes from 'stalemate' to 'win'.
Originally posted by JakeTheBankWell, not really. The only reason she lasted as long as she did was due to him being so completely out of his mind he allowed her to sneak up behind him with a free shot after he physically assaulted her.
And this isn't impressive? Diana had no intention of fighting a bloodlusted mindcontrolled Superman (who would?); she wanted to get to the heart of the source: Max Lord. If Diana didn't really give a shit about Kal, do you think she couldn't have killed him? The simple fact that Superman was trying to kill her and couldn't seal the deal while Diana was trying her best to restrain him long enough to get to Lord is impressive to me. What does Wonder Woman have to do to impress you?Not to mention that Diana is shown to consistantly hold her own against Superman and Captain Marvel as well as heralded as one of the top four physically most powerful heroes on the planet next to them and J'onn. Like I said, against a prolonged battle, most will agree Superman beats Diana, but it's not a stomp. I'm not accusing of you this, Quan, but a lot of people here really underestimate Diana just because she doesn't stomp all over Superman, when most high heralds simply can't stomp all over him.
I think she could have killed him when he was completely unaware of her presence. That isn't going to happen in a forum matchup.
Physically, Supes was head and shoulders above her.
Other characters in dc also have been portrayed closer to Superman than WW. I've never seen him easily snap Marvel's wrist or ko Black Adam with a punch like he did against WW.
She competes with them due to skill.