Superman/Surfer/Thor vs Wonder Woman/Black Adam/Captain Marvel/Firelord

Originally posted by quanchi112
Because his mindset wouldn't be altered. That's a huge difference. He also isn't fuming at the mouth to avenge Lois.

Not likely to work on Superman in his normal state of mind.

That was coming right after her not sneaking up behind her.

If he couldnt take her out quickly going all out, what makes you think with CIS on he'll have a better chance, and again, Wonder Woman was holding back.

Superman was in his normal state of mind, he was just pissed and was willing to kill (Doomsday/Diana).

If he wasnt in his right state of mind, why would he stop, close his eyes, and try to listen for a heart beat? What enraged person would do that?

Him grabbing Diana throat (while she was talking to max lord) and burning her face is a surprise attack. He attacked her while she was talking to max and carried her to space while choking/burning her face.

Originally posted by carver9
If he couldnt take her out quickly going all out, what makes you think with CIS on he'll have a better chance, and again, Wonder Woman was holding back.

Superman was in his normal state of mind, he was just pissed and was willing to kill (Doomsday/Diana).

If he wasnt in his right state of mind, why would he stop, close his eyes, and try to listen for a heart beat? What enraged person would do that?

Him grabbing Diana throat (while she was talking to max lord) and burning her face is a surprise attack. He attacked her while she was talking to max and carried her to space while choking/burning her face.

Seeing DD in place of WW isn't his normal frame of mind. Thinking Lois was just killed isn't his normal frame of mind.

Saying he wasn't enraged during the entire fight is ridiculous.

It caugt her off guard but it wasn't a cheapshot from behind.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I answered you in another thread about this very thing. You attempting to derail a thread because you're upset is only proof you're upset.

Yes, you lied there too and you were proven wrong. It's canon for Marvel and for Thanos, you might disagree with Marvel.

Reread the WW vs Superman fight in OMAC. Supes was mindcontrolled and enraged and WW hold back, it was obvious that both are capable of killing each other. The Tiara throw proved as much.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Barely, and she had free shots on him I don't see popping up in a forum match here.

Seeing DD in place of WW isn't his normal frame of mind. Thinking Lois was just killed isn't his normal frame of mind.

Saying he wasn't enraged during the entire fight is ridiculous.

It caugt her off guard but it wasn't a cheapshot from behind.

It wasnt a pop up from behind kind of deal like you are making it. He punched her to the earth, he flew back, froze her, went to pick up a rock and she used her speed to invade it. He stopped to see where she was and she tagged that ear. Superior speed/using it in a battle isnt evading, its called fighting, using your abilities to the best. Thats like saying that since flash attacks you from the front/side/left/right, due to his superior speed, then he evading that person. 😕

Yeah, he seen Wonder Woman as Doomsday but again, he was still thinking, avoiding, and even listening for a heart beat so that he can attack his enemy.

I never said that he wasnt enraged but he wasnt enraged to the point where he didnt use his abilities like he should because if so, again, why stand still and listen out for a heart beat from someone that is completely out of mind and foaming at the mouth?

He caught her off guard and burned her and flew her to the sun. Choking her and burning her is just as bad as her smashing his ears and his was actually worse. At least he was prepared for an attack whereas she wasnt and got blitzed and choked and burned.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Yes, you lied there too and you were proven wrong. It's canon for Marvel and for Thanos, you might disagree with Marvel.

Reread the WW vs Superman fight in OMAC. Supes was mindcontrolled and enraged and WW hold back, it was obvious that both are capable of killing each other. The Tiara throw proved as much.

I never said WW couldn't kill Superman. Wow, I actually said she had an opportunity to do so. Way to miss that.

Originally posted by carver9
It wasnt a pop up from behind kind of deal like you are making it. He punched her to the earth, he flew back, froze her, went to pick up a rock and she used her speed to invade it. He stopped to see where she was and she tagged that ear. Superior speed/using it in a battle isnt evading, its called fighting, using your abilities to the best. Thats like saying that since flash attacks you from the front/side/left/right, due to his superior speed, then he evading that person. 😕

Yeah, he seen Wonder Woman as Doomsday but again, he was still thinking, avoiding, and even listening for a heart beat so that he can attack his enemy.

I never said that he wasnt enraged but he wasnt enraged to the point where he didnt use his abilities like he should because if so, again, why stand still and listen out for a heart beat from someone that is completely out of mind and foaming at the mouth?

He caught her off guard and burned her and flew her to the sun. Choking her and burning her is just as bad as her smashing his ears and his was actually worse. At least he was prepared for an attack whereas she wasnt and got blitzed and choked and burned.

I understand this, but his mind was still altered.

The point is he wouldn't have lost her if he wasn't so consumed with killing his opponent because he was consumed with grief/rage.

Not at all. He directly attacked her while she snuck up from behind him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, it really isn't. If you want to try and prove it by all means do so.

I never said WW couldn't kill Superman. Wow, I actually said she had an opportunity to do so. Way to miss that.

Mindcontrol. Loss of control, utter fury is why I don't see this happening again.

I understand this, but his mind was still altered.

The point is he wouldn't have lost her if he wasn't so consumed with killing his opponent because he was consumed with grief/rage.

Not at all. He directly attacked her while she snuck up from behind him.

Superman was thinking to himself, so mind control wasnt the issue. Enraged, yes, I agree, mind controlled, naah.

Even though he was pissed, again, he was using his heat vision, strength, speed, and senses.

Why wouldnt he have lost her if he wasnt angry? Are you implying that his hearing would have been more enhanced if he wasnt pissed? She blitzed him, and it really doesnt matter if she blitzed him from the front, back, left, right, its a blitz and she is more than capable of doing it again since she has superior speed.

He directly attacked a Wonder Woman that had her attentions on max lord. Thats called a sneak attack, no matter how you put it and his sneak attack was much worse. She didnt even get the chance to get back on her feat before being punched back to earth.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman was thinking to himself, so mind control wasnt the issue. Enraged, yes, I agree, mind controlled, naah.

Even though he was pissed, again, he was using his heat vision, strength, speed, and senses.

Why wouldnt he have lost her if he wasnt angry? Are you implying that his hearing would have been more enhanced if he wasnt pissed? She blitzed him, and it really doesnt matter if she blitzed him from the front, back, left, right, its a blitz and she is more than capable of doing it again since she has superior speed.

He directly attacked a Wonder Woman that had her attentions on max lord. Thats called a sneak attack, no matter how you put it and his sneak attack was much worse. She didnt even get the chance to get back on her feat before being punched back to earth.

I know.

I am implying he wouldn't fight like an absolute maniac and leave himself wide open to these attacks.

Coming head on after someone when they can see you isn't the same thing as sneaking up behind someone with a free hit. Sorry, it's not.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Seeing DD and putting him into a killer state of mind isn't controlling his actions it's setting the mood.

I know.

I am implying he wouldn't fight like an absolute maniac and leave himself wide open to these attacks.

Coming head on after someone when they can see you isn't the same thing as sneaking up behind someone with a free hit. Sorry, it's not.

Seeing DD and putting him in a killer state uped his stats and made him not hold back and Wonder Woman was still ok at the end of the day and came out on top.

He wasnt fighting like a maniac though.A maniac does not try to listen for someones heat vision and a maniac doesnt avoid a lasso coming at the or freeze someone, then pick up a bolder to finish it off.

Coming head on to someone that wasnt prepared for an attack again, is about the same and if I'm quicker than someone and I can afford to get behind them to turn the battle more into my favor, then I'm going to do it. You do know that fighting isnt fair? Especially since he blitzed her, grabbed her throat, and then heat visioned her face and THEN tried to throw her in the sun. I dont consider that fair game either.

Originally posted by carver9
Seeing DD and putting him in a killer state uped his stats and made him not hold back and Wonder Woman was still ok at the end of the day and came out on top.

He wasnt fighting like a maniac though.A maniac does not try to listen for someones heat vision and a maniac doesnt avoid a lasso coming at the or freeze someone, then pick up a bolder to finish it off.

Coming head on to someone that wasnt prepared for an attack again, is about the same and if I'm quicker than someone and I can afford to get behind them to turn the battle more into my favor, then I'm going to do it. You do know that fighting isnt fair? Especially since he blitzed her, grabbed her throat, and then heat visioned her face and THEN tried to throw her in the sun. I dont consider that fair game either.

he was a maniac using his senses to pinpoint his enemy. If he were focused and what not I don't see him as losing her in the first place.

Not at all.

Attacking someone from behind is just different than tacking someone head on.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I do agree that this was an impressive showing for WW but she still would have lost if not for re entry waking her back up.

he was a maniac using his senses to pinpoint his enemy. If he were focused and what not I don't see him as losing her in the first place.

Not at all.

Attacking someone from behind is just different than tacking someone head on.

It shouldnt be an impressive showing for Wondy since she has done this more than once.

Why wouldnt he have lost her since she does have Superior speed? Can you prove that he wouldnt have lost her if his mindset was at its average?

Like I said before and I'm going to continue to say, fighting isnt fair. If I have superior speed, then off course, I'm going to use it in battle and if that lead to me punching someone in the back of the head, doing a back nut kick, etc... then of course, I'm going to do it.

Her using her speed against Superman is irrelevant to this battle because if thats the case, Superman blitzing her to the sun shouldnt be brought up.

Originally posted by carver9
It shouldnt be an impressive showing for Wondy since she has done this more than once.

Why wouldnt he have lost her since she does have Superior speed? Can you prove that he wouldnt have lost her if his mindset was at its average?

Like I said before and I'm going to continue to say, fighting isnt fair. If I have superior speed, then off course, I'm going to use it in battle and if that lead to me punching someone in the back of the head, doing a back nut kick, etc... then of course, I'm going to do it.

Her using her speed against Superman is irrelevant to this battle because if thats the case, Superman blitzing her to the sun shouldnt be brought up.

When has it ever happened like this before with his normal frame of mind?

I never said it was. His mindset made him open to this attack.

You brought it up. She saw Superman's attacks unlike Superman being unaware of her attack.

surfer amps superman

Originally posted by psycho gundam
surfer amps superman

Seems to me they're all more/less close enough in power for 4 > 3.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It's going to be competitive no doubt but Supes clearly has the edge in a direct fight.

Yes, an edge. Far from 'he would win quickly' like you were saying.

When he does fight normally he also doesn't attack nearly as ruthlessly and in such rapid succession. He had the initial advantage of starting with a full-power no holding back blitz when her guard was barely up and he couldn't win then, she made him break off then regained the initiative. A more cautious normal approach is going to be no faster.

When has it ever happened like this before with his normal frame of mind?

I never said it was. His mindset made him open to this attack.

Prove it. His guard wasn't down, he was actively looking for his foe. He guarded against plenty of other attacks. There's nothing preventing her from pulling that on a less enraged Superman, it's her stealth that let her pull it off.

Also you still are ignoring all their other confrontations which tend to be about as even, if less mutually damaging.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, an edge. Far from 'he would win quickly' like you were saying.

When he does fight normally he also doesn't attack nearly as ruthlessly and in such rapid succession. He had the initial advantage of starting with a full-power no holding back blitz when her guard was barely up and he couldn't win then, she made him break off then regained the initiative. A more cautious normal approach is going to be no faster.

Prove it. His guard wasn't down, he was actively looking for his foe. He guarded against plenty of other attacks. There's nothing preventing her from pulling that on a less enraged Superman, it's her stealth that let her pull it off.

Also you still are ignoring all their other confrontations which tend to be about as even, if less mutually damaging.

I disagree. I feel supes fighting in character more than going for the kill not leaving himself as wide open as he was during this fight.

While looking he wasn't bracing for an attack. Are you saying she can take a lot of superman punishment despite this showing proving otherwise?

Team 2 wins. 3 vs 3 would be a fair battle but 3 vs 4 its not regarding theirs powers!

Originally posted by quanchi112
In a direct battle he can win quickly. She isn't durable enough to take too many direct hits from him. My opinion has remained the same.

That was a direct battle, or did you miss him trying to throw WW into the sun?

Note he has surprise starting out. WW was negotiating with Max when he had Superman blitz her as speed. Nice of you to absolutely ignore Superman's surprise advantage in the fight and act like it was totally even to begin with, which it wasn't.

Let's go past the bracer-to-the-ears shot of the second bit of the fight too. The first page he was off balance and she got him. The second page, he was no longer confused, he was looking right at her and throwing attacks, and she delt with a couple of them before the wrist-break.

I will also note her blows clearly took their toll as well. Look at the wrist-snapping page- she kicks him, and he's at the end of a furrow maybe a hundred feet away. She just stands there. Next page, she fixes her wrist with her bracer, then sends the birds as a distraction. Superman stands up still clearly holding his side from an earlier attack. 100 feet away and he's hurt enough she can spend 5-10 seconds just recovering and thinking.

In that exchange, he clearly took lasting damage too, even not counting the surprise shot which he seemed to have shrugged off. Does that mean "he can't take many hits from her"?

Diana's also direct-battled Superman when his strength is amped. She blocked most of his blows of course, because she's really good at that. Her defense is top-notch, which you seem to ignore.

Your opinion seems to be cherry-picking and viewing fights in the worst possible light. Even though, hey, she won based on her own skill. She broke his grip based on her skill. She got out of his sight based on her skill after he freeze-breathed her. She pounded him based on her skill, she dodged blows, she inflicted real damage in return, and at the end, neither of them were ready to drop.

I disagree. I feel supes fighting in character more than going for the kill not leaving himself as wide open as he was during this fight.

Superman was still dodging shots, avoiding the lasso, and pretty much fighting as normal, intelligently. He also was unable to take her out during his initial rush even after he got past her bracers, the really tricky part to deal with defensively.

And, get this, in other fights, For Tomorrow, League of One, or so on, he avoids her attacks *no better*.

Your answer to why "No holds back, no skill reduction" Superman takes a lot of damage is "make stuff up without evidence", there's no sign his defense was impaired and he was in fact visibly actively defending. The comics disagree with you, deal with it.

While looking he wasn't bracing for an attack. Are you saying she can take a lot of superman punishment despite this showing proving otherwise?

Lesse, stangled, point-blank heatvision to the face, blocking his eyes with her bare hands, being punched from near the sun to Earth at full power, freeze-breathed, wrist snapped... still in battle shape and continues to hero the rest of the day? Yep. That amount of damage didn't stop her from fighting, put her in the hospital, or even make her take the day off.

Originally posted by Q99

That was a direct battle, or did you miss him trying to throw WW into the sun?

Note he has surprise starting out. WW was negotiating with Max when he had Superman blitz her as speed. Nice of you to absolutely ignore Superman's surprise advantage in the fight and act like it was totally even to begin with, which it wasn't.

Let's go past the bracer-to-the-ears shot of the second bit of the fight too. The first page he was off balance and she got him. The second page, he was no longer confused, he was looking right at her and throwing attacks, and she delt with a couple of them before the wrist-break.

I will also note her blows clearly took their toll as well. Look at the wrist-snapping page- she kicks him, and he's at the end of a furrow maybe a hundred feet away. She just stands there. Next page, she fixes her wrist with her bracer, then sends the birds as a distraction. Superman stands up still clearly holding his side from an earlier attack. 100 feet away and he's hurt enough she can spend 5-10 seconds just recovering and thinking.

In that exchange, he clearly took lasting damage too, even not counting the surprise shot which he seemed to have shrugged off. Does that mean "he can't take many hits from her"?

Diana's also direct-battled Superman when his strength is amped. She blocked most of his blows of course, because she's really good at that. Her defense is top-notch, which you seem to ignore.

Your opinion seems to be cherry-picking and viewing fights in the worst possible light. Even though, hey, she won based on her own skill. She broke his grip based on her skill. She got out of his sight based on her skill after he freeze-breathed her. She pounded him based on her skill, she dodged blows, she inflicted real damage in return, and at the end, neither of them were ready to drop.

Superman was still dodging shots, avoiding the lasso, and pretty much fighting as normal, intelligently. He also was unable to take her out during his initial rush even after he got past her bracers, the really tricky part to deal with defensively.

And, get this, in other fights, For Tomorrow, League of One, or so on, he avoids her attacks *no better*.

Your answer to why "No holds back, no skill reduction" Superman takes a lot of damage is "make stuff up without evidence", there's no sign his defense was impaired and he was in fact visibly actively defending. The comics disagree with you, deal with it.

Lesse, stangled, point-blank heatvision to the face, blocking his eyes with her bare hands, being punched from near the sun to Earth at full power, freeze-breathed, wrist snapped... still in battle shape and continues to hero the rest of the day? Yep. That amount of damage didn't stop her from fighting, put her in the hospital, or even make her take the day off. [/B]

Yes, it's still not a legit attack but he didn't sneak up behind her and attack her which is completely different.

I already admitted WW can fight Superman, but with a free shot like she did and not for as long as one might suspect. She quickly fled the scene and evaded him.

She was already ko'd once. You're splitting hairs here.

She won due to a cheapshot imo and from evading him not fighting him directly on.

Her attack didn't stop him from fighting either, but she still left the scene.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, the beginning of it was a direct mano e mano battle but WW turned the tide when she started using sneak attacks. > Your use of "sneak" attacks gives the connotation that her maneuver was somehow "invalid", in terms of the context of the fight -- it wasn't. Her skill/speed/finesse allowed her to get the drop on him. Period. You may not like the move because it "doesn't fit your narrow parameters of combat definitions", but it is, in fact, a perfectly valid move, in the context of the battle (i.e. I am trying to subdue him without killing him).

Yes, it's still not a legit attack but he didn't sneak up behind her and attack her which is completely different. > Actually, that is exactly what he did, at the beginning; that she was fast enough to still block his initial HV attack, even though he was already moving at speed, doesn't invalidate that -- it just shows her edge in combat speed. In the latter part of the battle, he is aware that she is still in the combat vicinity, just as she was aware that he was behind her at the beginning. It is very similar, indeed. He got her in the beginning, via her talking, and she got him in the middle, via combat speed/finesse. Think about it, Quan. Be *truly* objective. If you are, then you'll see the mirror similarities (which in a story context were obviously intentional).

I already admitted WW can fight Superman, but with a free shot like she did and not for as long as one might suspect. She quickly fled the scene and evaded him. > You keep saying "free shot", and such, but it *wasn't* a "free shot" -- it was an "earned" shot via her speed and combat skills (and, of course, being armed with her bracers). Via the circumstances of the fight, it was perfectly legit. In a different setting, such a maneuver could still be accomplished (such as when he was initially taking her into space -- she could have slammed his head while his arms were (admittedly) busy strangling her, just as she used her thumbs to eye-gouge during his HV attack).

She was already ko'd once. You're splitting hairs here. > No, Quan -- YOU are the one splitting hairs. NO ONE is saying Supes wouldn't take a majority of wins. Of course he'll take 6+ against her. Her getting knocked out for a brief moment doesn't invalidate that. YOU are the one taking that out of context -- her other instances of having him stunned/in a compromised position are JUST AS VALID, in a forum fight, AS HIM KNOCKING HER BACK TO EARTH.

She won due to a cheapshot imo and from evading him not fighting him directly on. > If by "cheap shot", you mean using either her combat skills/smarts (via the bracer attack) or one of her signature moves (tiara throw to wound/incapacitate/decapitate), then you are totally misusing the term. Completely. Both of those moves are perfectly valid in terms of her character/power-skill set, and by definition would be effective vs. Clark due to her speed/strength backing mystical artifacts.

Her attack didn't stop him from fighting either, but she still left the scene. > She "left the scene" NOT AS A RETREAT FROM BATTLE, but to deal with the villain of the story; that, by related definition, would simply be a mild form of PIS, in terms of a forum fight; otherwise, when Clark was in the ground after her kicking him, she could have bound him with the lasso, or attacked him with her tiara then (the latter being for the kill); instead, she continued the narrative of the story (by creating a brief distraction via one of her more fringe abilities) so she could handle Lord. In the context of the forum, she was in fact fighting *2* opponents -- Supes *and* Lord. That Lord's ability didn't affect her simply demonstrated her resistance to mental influences. That she was able to fight Superman, survive his attacks and get in some good counterblows/defensive moves, while under mild PIS/CIS (don't want to kill my friend while he thinks I am somebody else and just killed his wife), is actually rather impressive. If you were *truly* being objective, Quan, you would see/understand that.