Superman/Surfer/Thor vs Wonder Woman/Black Adam/Captain Marvel/Firelord

Originally posted by carver9
What attacks wasnt she able to take?

Originally posted by tideoftime
I just realized something: Quan is using the scans out of order, and also isn't including the more *clarified* pics from "Mission's End", which show things a bit more accurately, because they're from Diana's POV -- she gets manhandled just as brutally, but the battle-flow is clearer, and it shows that when it came to fighting HtH, they were much more even, and she could have gotten the kill (not that she'd have done so -- just keeping it in forum-context) after stunning Clark after dodging his blows/heat vision, and kicking him into the ground (which, BTW Quan, is the scan that comes after -- not the one you posted which is two pages before that).

But I do see why Quan *might* legitimately be misconstruing certain things, though honestly even with what he posted it is clear Clark wasn't "head and shoulders" above her. He has broader degrees of invulnerability - no contention there. He is stronger - true (though only marginally so). Diana has an edge in combat reflexes (not major, but an edge). He can take a beating longer than she can; she has weapons that can kill him (especially as they are being backed by physical power near his own). Don't see why this is difficult to understand.

Originally posted by tideoftime
You're right. Re-reading my post I realized I was being *reasonable* -- which normally wouldn't be a bad thing, except that when dealing with someone as *unreasonable* as Quan, that's a mistake. Which is unfortunate, because it is a shame he is so biased -- it's makes having a real discussion virtually impossible.

Oh, and I'd probably give Team 2 a *slight* majority, due entirely to the number advantage, and even that can depend on the order of who is directly attacking who/double teaming at a given time; Team 1 is a fierce trio, and have a major advantage in versatility -- they can make for heavy wins when they do win.

Yes, you were being reasonable, which I would normally applaud. But against this particular poster, it's best to just shake your head and move on 🙂

You are correct that Team 1 is a very impressive trio. And they could pull out some wins. I just think that most of the potential 2vs1 match ups really hurt them. I think Surfer would do the best out of the 3 of them in a 2 against 1 fight. If he is the one who gets double teamed, he could take down one of his attackers and then it would be 3 on 3 and a whole new ball game.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Yes, you were being reasonable, which I would normally applaud. But against this particular poster, it's best to just shake your head and move on 🙂

You are correct that Team 1 is a very impressive trio. And they could pull out some wins. I just think that most of the potential 2vs1 match ups really hurt them. I think Surfer would do the best out of the 3 of them in a 2 against 1 fight. If he is the one who gets double teamed, he could take down one of his attackers and then it would be 3 on 3 and a whole new ball game.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What did I take out of context?

Honestly, Quan, this is a real case of "If you have to ask, you're not going to understand the answer" kind of situation; this fight (SM vs. WW) seems to come up with regularity around here, and most people get what was intended to be conveyed by the fight: Superman has the advantage, especially when he goes all-out, but Diana can take a monstrous beating, and still keep going. The injuries she did sustain were categorically of a lower grade than the injuries she received in other battles with an enraged/altered Superman in the past (such as when he was under Circe's influence) -- it was also made quite clear that she was *not* fighting for the kill, as he was; if she had been, she had two clear opportunities to kill him: when she stunned him after their HtH in Wyoming, and when she tiara'd him in front of Lord. In both instances, it was clear that she wasn't taking "Forum Combat" advantage of the situation (as she of course wouldn't, as she was trying to help her friend, not kill him -- if it had been Bizarro, but keeping the same order of combat as displayed, we'd have been holding a funeral for him the next day. And don't even bring up any Trinity storylines: that is a retro-story from when Diana was weaker than she is now).

Saying, for example, that the fight would have been over when she was KO'd for a brief moment, is arbitrary to the debate at hand: no one is disputing a blow from an amped Superman couldn't knock her for a good one (or that sustained blows from a regular Supes couldn't do the same). The instances she had of where she could have subdued him (after stunning him, then subdue via lasso), or killed him (via tiara after stunning, or at Lord's) are just as valid, contextually, as Supes socking her good across three planetary orbits; the latter is more dramatic and circumstantially impressive, but the former two are just as valid in a Forum Fight. (And to restate from another thread: the point of him hitting her from the Sun to the Earth wasn't that "oooo, she got ganked", but rather "Christ on a cracker, b!tch can take a hit -- amped Supes, slamming into the Earth at FTL speeds, and only got a small nosebleed from it, and was up again within seconds? Tough B!tch, as Guy Gardner nicknamed her 20+ years ago..."😉 Even his snapping her wrist needs to be taken in context: when he grabbed it (thinking it is DD's wrist), it didn't snap then -- it snapped after Diana had blocked, then hit him, then in response to the pain of her blow, he bore down on her wrist with all of his strength; *then* it snapped (check "Mission's End" for a more accurate account of how their battle went -- still essentially the same, but with subtle tweeks, as Diana was seeing things more clearly than Clark was -- obviously). And even with that, it "merely" snapped -- it wasn't pulverized, or crushed, but simply snapped. And of course an enraged Supes can do that... just as an enraged (or realizing she has to be serious) WW can stun or (via her weapons), seriously harm *him*.

Also, Diana (much like Clark), was still in fairly workable condition after the fight: 15 minutes later, she was half-way around the world, again, stopping a nuclear reactor from having a meltdown, then tracking down other agents linked to Lord; the next morning, she was up an about, the wound on her cheek already visibly healing, and battling OMACs that made a surprise attack on her at the Embassy. The point to bringing that up? Even after such a brutal fight, she was still in reasonably good condition -- not crushed, not hospitalized, not even really slowed down. If Supes were, in fact, "head and shoulders" above her, she would have been in a state *like* the Trinity battle with Bizarro. She wasn't.

Get it?

(Sorry, everybody, for the text wall, but I am hoping this ends this absurd discussion. I know it won't, 'cus Quan is uber-stubborn, but I am "speaking Truth to Power", in anycase...)

The worse person for Diana to face is Surfer, and even then, there's a solid chance she won't be facing him alone.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Honestly, Quan, this is a real case of "If you have to ask, you're not going to understand the answer" kind of situation; this fight (SM vs. WW) seems to come up with regularity around here, and most people get what was intended to be conveyed by the fight: Superman has the advantage, especially when he goes all-out, but Diana can take a monstrous beating, and still keep going. The injuries she did sustain were categorically of a lower grade than the injuries she received in other battles with an enraged/altered Superman in the past (such as when he was under Circe's influence) -- it was also made quite clear that she was *not* fighting for the kill, as he was; if she had been, she had two clear opportunities to kill him: when she stunned him after their HtH in Wyoming, and when she tiara'd him in front of Lord. In both instances, it was clear that she wasn't taking "Forum Combat" advantage of the situation (as she of course wouldn't, as she was trying to help her friend, not kill him -- if it had been Bizarro, but keeping the same order of combat as displayed, we'd have been holding a funeral for him the next day. And don't even bring up any Trinity storylines: that is a retro-story from when Diana was weaker than she is now).

Saying, for example, that the fight would have been over when she was KO'd for a brief moment, is arbitrary to the debate at hand: no one is disputing a blow from an amped Superman couldn't knock her for a good one (or that sustained blows from a regular Supes couldn't do the same). The instances she had of where she could have subdued him (after stunning him, then subdue via lasso), or killed him (via tiara after stunning, or at Lord's) are just as valid, contextually, as Supes socking her good across three planetary orbits; the latter is more dramatic and circumstantially impressive, but the former two are just as valid in a Forum Fight. (And to restate from another thread: the point of him hitting her from the Sun to the Earth wasn't that "oooo, she got ganked", but rather "Christ on a cracker, b!tch can take a hit -- amped Supes, slamming into the Earth at FTL speeds, and only got a small nosebleed from it, and was up again within seconds? Tough B!tch, as Guy Gardner nicknamed her 20+ years ago..."😉 Even his snapping her wrist needs to be taken in context: when he grabbed it (thinking it is DD's wrist), it didn't snap then -- it snapped after Diana had blocked, then hit him, then in response to the pain of her blow, he bore down on her wrist with all of his strength; *then* it snapped (check "Mission's End" for a more accurate account of how their battle went -- still essentially the same, but with subtle tweeks, as Diana was seeing things more clearly than Clark was -- obviously). And even with that, it "merely" snapped -- it wasn't pulverized, or crushed, but simply snapped. And of course an enraged Supes can do that... just as an enraged (or realizing she has to be serious) WW can stun or (via her weapons), seriously harm *him*.

Also, Diana (much like Clark), was still in fairly workable condition after the fight: 15 minutes later, she was half-way around the world, again, stopping a nuclear reactor from having a meltdown, then tracking down other agents linked to Lord; the next morning, she was up an about, the wound on her cheek already visibly healing, and battling OMACs that made a surprise attack on her at the Embassy. The point to bringing that up? Even after such a brutal fight, she was still in reasonably good condition -- not crushed, not hospitalized, not even really slowed down. If Supes were, in fact, "head and shoulders" above her, she would have been in a state *like* the Trinity battle with Bizarro. She wasn't.

Get it?

(Sorry, everybody, for the text wall, but I am hoping this ends this absurd discussion. I know it won't, 'cus Quan is uber-stubborn, but I am "speaking Truth to Power", in anycase...)

I don't really think Superman was amped in the sense the writer recognized it. If I am wrong on this and the writer was going for the that I will concede my point.

I think the fight more than showed superman's physical advantages over WW. She couldn't fight him directly. She needed to use her wits and turn his greatest strengths into his greatest weaknesses. This much is pretty apparent, but it was kind of ridiculous to see her sneak up right behind him with him being completely unaware of her.

She definitely didn't sustain more serious injuries because she didn't take that many blows from Superman head on. the blows she did take broke her wrist, burned her flesh, and ko'd her momentarily.

You're just trying to give her too much credit imo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
it was kind of ridiculous to see her sneak up right behind him with him being completely unaware of her.

You're just trying to give her too much credit imo.

😘

Originally posted by quanchi112
I agreed she could have killed him when she snuck up behind him. This tactic won't be available to her if she fights him in his normal mindset.

Sure it would. It's not like he wasn't using his super-senses or anything, he specifically was, she just took advantage before there was a chance to react.

He thought she was Doomsday, he wasn't *impaired*. He was specifically fighting at his max and was still thinking during the fight.

She definitely didn't sustain more serious injuries because she didn't take that many blows from Superman head on. the blows she did take broke her wrist, burned her flesh, and ko'd her momentarily.

And she is really good at avoiding direct blows, and she didn't inflict many in return but the ones she landed smashed his ears, bruised his ribs, and cut his throat.

There were more hits when she fought Doomsdayified Superman, but she won that one too.

You're just trying to give her too much credit imo.

You're just trying to spin it to give her far too little. It's not a one-off fight, it's a bunch of them with consistent results (that is, it is *always* close and difficult), and you're trying to turn a win into a loss.

Is it so hard to admit that Superman vs Wonder Woman is normally a close and hard fight when it has, on many occasions, been a close and hard fight? When he views her as Earth's second line of defense and Batman thinks he's the only one who could restraint a rampaging WW? When she fights dead-even with Captain Marvel too?

You can try and twist the facts all you want, but this is a really consistent thing that has been settled in-comic repeatedly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I agreed she could have killed him when she snuck up behind him. This tactic won't be available to her if she fights him in his normal mindset.

I don't really think Superman was amped in the sense the writer recognized it. If I am wrong on this and the writer was going for the that I will concede my point.

I think the fight more than showed superman's physical advantages over WW. She couldn't fight him directly. She needed to use her wits and turn his greatest strengths into his greatest weaknesses. This much is pretty apparent, but it was kind of ridiculous to see her sneak up right behind him with him being completely unaware of her.

She definitely didn't sustain more serious injuries because she didn't take that many blows from Superman head on. the blows she did take broke her wrist, burned her flesh, and ko'd her momentarily.

You're just trying to give her too much credit imo.

frusty

Dude... seriously?

I'd ask you if you're being for real, but I know you are, which is just... unbelievable...

The whole *point* to the battle, from a "forum" context, was to show how much of a beating she can take and still deal pretty well with the situation at hand -- nobody is saying Supes doesn't have a wider range of invulnerability than she does; of course he does. She only matches him, relatively speaking, in terms of blunt-force trauma. Of course she's going to look worse form wear from his attacks, and he'll look better off after hers. THE POINT is that she stood up to him pretty well, and if SHE were ALSO fighting for the kill AS HE WAS, this could have ended very differently. Her getting him with her bracers showed: skill, speed, finesse, and a desire to *not* kill him, but *subdue* him, if possible. Of course it hurt him (even without his hearing on, it would have, as her bracers are powerful magical artifacts), and of course it wasn't enought to keep him down, 'cus he's frickin' SUPERMAN. I am referring to when she gave him the uber-kick (after dodging his blow and heatvision) and stunned him -- she could have lassoed him or killed him (via tiara) then and there, if she wanted to (she didn't because she A: didn't want to kill her friend, and B: knew lassoing him was just a short-term fix to a long-term problem -- she needed to break Lord's hold over Clark in order to actually free him, permanently). And when she threw her tiara when they were back at Lord's, if her intention had been to kill Clark, it is very likely she could have; even at that point, she could have followed up with killing attacks (using her bracers as bludgeoning weapons, taking advantage of his few seconds of "Oh my god, my thoat is slit", or simply used her tiara again as a hand-held slashing weapon). She comments to Bruce (whom she was relating all this to in her "word boxes" during the battle) about how they "very nearly killed *each other*" (trying to explain why she had to kill Lord to free Clark; even Lord himself had stated that she would either have to kill Clark to stop him, or let Clark kill her. Of course, Lord didn't think that Diana would simply use option 3: Kill Lord.)

I am in no way, shape, or form giving WW too much credit; nobody... and I mean NOBODY... was more surprised at how well she stood up to him, or how actually even-keel the HtH fight really was (given that she was not going for the kill the way he was), or how good a condition she was in immediately afterwards -- than ME. When I first read that fight, I was certain she was dead when she hit the Earth at FTL; then went "Damn, she's still up... Sh!t, she's still fighting..." "Oooo, girl - don't let him grab you like that, he's gonna -- *snap* -- yeah, do something like that..." "Hell, this is a more even fight than I really thought -- did she just slit his throat? She didn't kill-- no, of course not, she's got mad accuracy skills -- yeah, he's still alive, she wouldn't want to kill him... thought she was gonna do something stupid there, for a second... why don't you just kil-- oh, nevermind... you just did..."

I had followed WW for years, and was skeptical about her being nearly as strong (or a HtH match) as Supes; DC had been saying for years that she was, and took it with a grain of salt... *until* this battle.

*You*, Quan, are simply looking at it through biased, *Quan*-colored glasses. You *don't* actually pay much attention to what some of the more truly reasonable posters write, but rather stick with your own skewed perspective. You accused me before of being a WW fanboy, which I laughed at, 'cus I'm not (I like the character, but am not in love with her the way you appear to be in love with Thor -- not trying to be a smart-ass there, just making a comparison), and if you had asked me about SM vs. WW, say, 6 years ago, I would've been like "Diana better watch her a$$, something serious...". But not after that battle. She clearly demonstrated that if she were fighting on similar terms, she could have very could chances of making wins happen. The only major advantage Clark, contextually, has is that he can subdue her more readily *without* killing her than she can him -- her "subduals" would involve using her weapons and very likely lethal force. He has wider options, but those options don't invalidate hers, by any means...

Originally posted by Konton
😘

Originally posted by Q99
Sure it would. It's not like he wasn't using his super-senses or anything, he specifically was, she just took advantage before there was a chance to react.

He thought she was Doomsday, he wasn't *impaired*. He was specifically fighting at his max and was still thinking during the fight.

And she is really good at avoiding direct blows, and she didn't inflict many in return but the ones she landed smashed his ears, bruised his ribs, and cut his throat.

There were more hits when she fought Doomsdayified Superman, but she won that one too.

You're just trying to spin it to give her far too little. It's not a one-off fight, it's a bunch of them with consistent results (that is, it is *always* close and difficult), and you're trying to turn a win into a loss.

Is it so hard to admit that Superman vs Wonder Woman is normally a close and hard fight when it has, on many occasions, been a close and hard fight? When he views her as Earth's second line of defense and Batman thinks he's the only one who could restraint a rampaging WW? When she fights dead-even with Captain Marvel too?

You can try and twist the facts all you want, but this is a really consistent thing that has been settled in-comic repeatedly.

I understand she pulled her punches, but it was noted barely. In a direct matchup he's too strong and more durable which is why he wins a solid majority. I've always maintained this stance and I don't see one mindcontrolled fight where WW caught him by completely surprise twice and fled the battle scene as proof WW can hang with him for long in a direct fight.

I never said it would be easy, but Supes connects a few hard good shots and I see her out. If she fights smart, perhaps gets lucky with some of her accessories, I can see her taking a few wins out of ten. That's more than reasonable.

Originally posted by tideoftime
frusty

Dude... seriously?

I'd ask you if you're being for real, but I know you are, which is just... unbelievable...

The whole *point* to the battle, from a "forum" context, was to show how much of a beating she can take and still deal pretty well with the situation at hand -- nobody is saying Supes doesn't have a wider range of invulnerability than she does; of course he does. She only matches him, relatively speaking, in terms of blunt-force trauma. Of course she's going to look worse form wear from his attacks, and he'll look better off after hers. THE POINT is that she stood up to him pretty well, and if SHE were ALSO fighting for the kill AS HE WAS, this could have ended very differently. Her getting him with her bracers showed: skill, speed, finesse, and a desire to *not* kill him, but *subdue* him, if possible. Of course it hurt him (even without his hearing on, it would have, as her bracers are powerful magical artifacts), and of course it wasn't enought to keep him down, 'cus he's frickin' SUPERMAN. I am referring to when she gave him the uber-kick (after dodging his blow and heatvision) and stunned him -- she could have lassoed him or killed him (via tiara) then and there, if she wanted to (she didn't because she A: didn't want to kill her friend, and B: knew lassoing him was just a short-term fix to a long-term problem -- she needed to break Lord's hold over Clark in order to actually free him, permanently). And when she threw her tiara when they were back at Lord's, if her intention had been to kill Clark, it is very likely she could have; even at that point, she could have followed up with killing attacks (using her bracers as bludgeoning weapons, taking advantage of his few seconds of "Oh my god, my thoat is slit", or simply used her tiara again as a hand-held slashing weapon). She comments to Bruce (whom she was relating all this to in her "word boxes" during the battle) about how they "very nearly killed *each other*" (trying to explain why she had to kill Lord to free Clark; even Lord himself had stated that she would either have to kill Clark to stop him, or let Clark kill her. Of course, Lord didn't think that Diana would simply use option 3: Kill Lord.)

I am in no way, shape, or form giving WW too much credit; nobody... and I mean NOBODY... was more surprised at how well she stood up to him, or how actually even-keel the HtH fight really was (given that she was not going for the kill the way he was), or how good a condition she was in immediately afterwards -- than ME. When I first read that fight, I was certain she was dead when she hit the Earth at FTL; then went "Damn, she's still up... Sh!t, she's still fighting..." "Oooo, girl - don't let him grab you like that, he's gonna -- *snap* -- yeah, do something like that..." "Hell, this is a more even fight than I really thought -- did she just slit his throat? She didn't kill-- no, of course not, she's got mad accuracy skills -- yeah, he's still alive, she wouldn't want to kill him... thought she was gonna do something stupid there, for a second... why don't you just kil-- oh, nevermind... you just did..."

I had followed WW for years, and was skeptical about her being nearly as strong (or a HtH match) as Supes; DC had been saying for years that she was, and took it with a grain of salt... *until* this battle.

*You*, Quan, are simply looking at it through biased, *Quan*-colored glasses. You *don't* actually pay much attention to what some of the more truly reasonable posters write, but rather stick with your own skewed perspective. You accused me before of being a WW fanboy, which I laughed at, 'cus I'm not (I like the character, but am not in love with her the way you appear to be in love with Thor -- not trying to be a smart-ass there, just making a comparison), and if you had asked me about SM vs. WW, say, 6 years ago, I would've been like "Diana better watch her a$$, something serious...". But not after that battle. She clearly demonstrated that if she were fighting on similar terms, she could have very could chances of making wins happen. The only major advantage Clark, contextually, has is that he can subdue her more readily *without* killing her than she can him -- her "subduals" would involve using her weapons and very likely lethal force. He has wider options, but those options don't invalidate hers, by any means...

She didn't stand up to him that well. She was ko'd once and had her wrist crushed. When the fight started changing is when she snuck up behind him.

He also dodged a lasso attempt in the actual fight head on. The only two times she could have killed him is when she snuck up on him and when he showed up later in front of Maxwell Lord. That's completely different than having the option taking someone head on which is the point you are still trying to make though unsuccessfully.

Again, I hate Superman and would love to say WW fared better in this fight but looking at why she did I can't say it holds much weight at all in a direct fight without him being mindcontrolled.

Quan: The problem with your perception is that *you* are the one taking the parts of the fight *you* like, and focusing on them; I am taking the fight, as a whole, *without* any bias of any kind (as I said before -- NOBODY was more surprised by how well she stood up than me) and she most *certainly* would have gained consciousness on her own; she has fought Superman before, on several occasions, under various states of influence/control, and she has withstood his assaults (been badly hurt? Of course. But she has withstood powerful blows from him before). The heat of re-entry was simply the *narrative* involved in her gaining consciousness -- otherwise, her impacting the Earth at FTL would have knocked her out again, within that reasoning. You focus on her getting him with her bracers, but she could have *also* made valid attempts to kill him *after* the kick she gave him (that stunned him as she herself had been stunned), as well as the obvious instance at Lord's.

As far as Supes altered state -- he was *not* being mind-controlled/having his actions directed; he was perceiving reality via a mental illusion. He was in complete control of his actions in the sense of being aware of what/how he would fight, not having his actions "remote-controlled", or some-such, mentally. Was he fighting as smartly as he could? No. But neither was Diana.

You are being intellectually dishonest, Quan, and after taking a few minutes to look at previous posts of yours, I can see that isn't something new for you. I don't doubt that you can put forth a good arguement -- a number of them are not only well-stated, but often correct. But "often" doesn't mean "always", and your instances of bias and intellectual dishonesty make for a huge flaw in your debates.

You have been given *very* valid counter arguements about not only this particular fight, but had other scans of SM vs. WW battles presented, in other threads, and often you don't comment when someone makes a truly valid point that contradicts yours. While you could then honestly say you never backed down on your point, it also means that you never followed through on truly *evaluating* what was presented in some of the counter-posts. And that is the ultimate indicator of intellectual dishonesty.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Quan: The problem with your perception is that *you* are the one taking the parts of the fight *you* like, and focusing on them; I am taking the fight, as a whole, *without* any bias of any kind (as I said before -- NOBODY was more surprised by how well she stood up than me) and she most *certainly* would have gained consciousness on her own; she has fought Superman before, on several occasions, under various states of influence/control, and she has withstood his assaults (been badly hurt? Of course. But she has withstood powerful blows from him before). The heat of re-entry was simply the *narrative* involved in her gaining consciousness -- otherwise, her impacting the Earth at FTL would have knocked her out again, within that reasoning. You focus on her getting him with her bracers, but she could have *also* made valid attempts to kill him *after* the kick she gave him (that stunned him as she herself had been stunned), as well as the obvious instance at Lord's.

As far as Supes altered state -- he was *not* being mind-controlled/having his actions directed; he was perceiving reality via a mental illusion. He was in complete control of his actions in the sense of being aware of what/how he would fight, not having his actions "remote-controlled", or some-such, mentally. Was he fighting as smartly as he could? No. But neither was Diana.

You are being intellectually dishonest, Quan, and after taking a few minutes to look at previous posts of yours, I can see that isn't something new for you. I don't doubt that you can put forth a good arguement -- a number of them are not only well-stated, but often correct. But "often" doesn't mean "always", and your instances of bias and intellectual dishonesty make for a huge flaw in your debates.

You have been given *very* valid counter arguements about not only this particular fight, but had other scans of SM vs. WW battles presented, in other threads, and often you don't comment when someone makes a truly valid point that contradicts yours. While you could then honestly say you never backed down on your point, it also means that you never followed through on truly *evaluating* what was presented in some of the counter-posts. And that is the ultimate indicator of intellectual dishonesty.

Yeah, like I said due to the events and re entry she was able to re engage him. In a forum fight she was out.

My point is having his perceptions altered every so slightly adds to the fact we've never seen WW catch him completely off guard by sneaking up behind him in the manner she did.

Again, I hate Superman so what do I have to gain by giving him more credit than he's due.

Your opinion, but then again you happen to really like WW while I hate one of the characters in this thread and it isn't WW.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Quan: The problem with your perception is that *you* are the one taking the parts of the fight *you* like, and focusing on them; I am taking the fight, as a whole, *without* any bias of any kind (as I said before -- NOBODY was more surprised by how well she stood up than me) and she most *certainly* would have gained consciousness on her own; she has fought Superman before, on several occasions, under various states of influence/control, and she has withstood his assaults (been badly hurt? Of course. But she has withstood powerful blows from him before). The heat of re-entry was simply the *narrative* involved in her gaining consciousness -- otherwise, her impacting the Earth at FTL would have knocked her out again, within that reasoning. You focus on her getting him with her bracers, but she could have *also* made valid attempts to kill him *after* the kick she gave him (that stunned him as she herself had been stunned), as well as the obvious instance at Lord's.

As far as Supes altered state -- he was *not* being mind-controlled/having his actions directed; he was perceiving reality via a mental illusion. He was in complete control of his actions in the sense of being aware of what/how he would fight, not having his actions "remote-controlled", or some-such, mentally. Was he fighting as smartly as he could? No. But neither was Diana.

You are being intellectually dishonest, Quan, and after taking a few minutes to look at previous posts of yours, I can see that isn't something new for you. I don't doubt that you can put forth a good arguement -- a number of them are not only well-stated, but often correct. But "often" doesn't mean "always", and your instances of bias and intellectual dishonesty make for a huge flaw in your debates.

You have been given *very* valid counter arguements about not only this particular fight, but had other scans of SM vs. WW battles presented, in other threads, and often you don't comment when someone makes a truly valid point that contradicts yours. While you could then honestly say you never backed down on your point, it also means that you never followed through on truly *evaluating* what was presented in some of the counter-posts. And that is the ultimate indicator of intellectual dishonesty.

Forget it. Though he really hates Superman and is always biased against DC there is still one more thing he hates more then anything else.

Woman.

Maybe because Squirrel Girl beat Thanos 🙂.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Forget it. Though he really hates Superman and is always biased against DC there is still one more thing he hates more then anything else.

Woman.

Maybe because Squirrel Girl beat Thanos 🙂.

^Prove that it aint canon.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^Prove that it aint canon.

^ok so you were lying and you have no prove at all. Confession accepted.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^ok so you were lying and you have no prove at all. Confession accepted.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I already told you I hate Superman. so saying I am showing bias here towards Superman of all characters is well off the mark.

Yeah, like I said due to the events and re entry she was able to re engage him. In a forum fight she was out.

My point is having his perceptions altered every so slightly adds to the fact we've never seen WW catch him completely off guard by sneaking up behind him in the manner she did.

Again, I hate Superman so what do I have to gain by giving him more credit than he's due.

Your opinion, but then again you happen to really like WW while I hate one of the characters in this thread and it isn't WW.

Why wouldnt everything that happened in that comic not happen in a forum fight?

It was Superman, the only difference was he thought he was fighting Doomsday and he wasnt holding back.

So basically, that sneak up attack that Wonder Woman did, it would also work in a forum battle.

By the way, Wonder Woman wasnt the only one doing sneak attack. Before the fight even started SUPERMAN was the one that attacked an unaware Wonder Woman first, grabbing her neck, flying her to space. 😕

Originally posted by carver9
Why wouldnt everything that happened in that comic not happen in a forum fight?

It was Superman, the only difference was he thought he was fighting Doomsday and he wasnt holding back.

So basically, that sneak up attack that Wonder Woman did, it would also work in a forum battle.

By the way, Wonder Woman wasnt the only one doing sneak attack. Before the fight even started SUPERMAN was the one that attacked an unaware Wonder Woman first, grabbing her neck, flying her to space. 😕

Not likely to work on Superman in his normal state of mind.

That was coming right after her not sneaking up behind her.