Originally posted by kakuzuwhen you say it like that he sounds like he's unbeatable, it's a major problem on this forum.
Again how else is Superman going to take him down? Loki has had his head taken off in three instances and lived. He has taken on Surtur and was even able to hurt him. He took a direct blast from destroyer point blank and was still standing. He has made weapons come out of nowhere and tricked Thor into hitting himself with his own Hammer. Superman can't do much against a guy so trickey.
apocalypse used only physical attacks and did very well against the same loki. i do believe superman would prevail if he just wants to knock the guy out.
Originally posted by kgkg
Some people <a page back or so> had questions about speed of thought , it has little relevance to the fight at hand.
That's why the speed of thought debate came into play in the first place.
Originally posted by EnyalusConsidering that this is a non-PIS enviorment and that Clark has general knowledge of the opposition, he'd have no reason not to take the opponent down as fast as he can (even moreso considering his opponent is a magical one).
Essentially.Incidentally, why does every Superman debate come down to whether or not they can react to the big blue shield's blitz? It's not like he does it even 40% of the time he's in fights. And Loki's magic far outstrips a lot of other magical powerhouses who would/have given Kal fits.
A better question is, why are people so fast to jump on Superman using his speed, a tactic that he'd most likely use given the circumstances, yet easily accept obscure or rarely used feats for characters like Surfer or Thor, eventough the chances of those type of characters thinking of doing just that are much smaller than in Superman's case ?
Originally posted by psycho gundam
when you say it like that he sounds like he's unbeatable, it's a major problem on this forum.apocalypse used only physical attacks and did very well against the same loki. i do believe superman would prevail if he just wants to knock the guy out.
When I say all that stuff its fact Loki is no easy normal villain when he does something its usually big.
Yeah thats Apoc Superman in your guys head apparently when he throws a punch against a Marvel comic character is light speed, when he fights a marvel character light speed, but when he fought that titanium guy Superman showed no signs of speed and was taking hits from a guy made of full metal who had no super power of speed. If your going to putw these two together don't only look at one character look at boths abitlites. I know Superman can fight he is stronger than loki but he doesn't always use what you guys throw out there in his fights its a rare thing.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
superman's speed and his application of it in combat is something i've always contested here actually.loki's never been above getting a straight beatdown, and superman is capable of handing one out.
superman's magical vulnerability is the main issue, not loki's chin.
Yeah and in majority ofhis fights its rarely seen. Tell me how many times has he done what he did to Ultraman to any of his other foes. Never only done that one feat once.
Loki can take his beatings and keep on coming I don't see Superman taking a blast from anything like Destroyer and still standing at point blank range. Darkseid only has to blast from his hand to make Superman go on his knees, his eye blast automatically have Superman screaming in pain.
Lokis magic can take majority.
Originally posted by Philosophía
yet easily accept obscure or rarely used feats for characters like Surfer or Thor, eventough the chances of those type of characters thinking of doing just that are much smaller than in Superman's case ?
Exotic plot device-like WTF level feats, I agree with your objection. So long as the Superman side don't use countervibration or T-Vo arguments.
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
I support Loki more often than I do Kal in this thread, but I'm open to a change of opinions but I believe that anyone who thinks Loki can down Superman with one spell outside of snow-Bor is just as bad as anyone who thinks Superman in his normal mindset can oneshot Loki.
If Superman had some more tricks he could do it like classic Superman had the rainbow thing come from his mid section which turned you to glass. Gay power but it would help him win, Loki has been seen stealing powers, amplifying them and turning Thor into a frog. Supermans powers are just to average. It be like putting Juggernaut against him. With the exception of the speed factor which he only uses if he can't win.
Originally posted by leonidasJust Frost Giants? "Creatures as ancient and eternal as the planet, as mercilessly powerful as winter itself?" All purple prose aside, you make them sound like a bunch of dumb, slow Giantman/Goliaths. And these Frost Giants were amped.
of course i did. they are just frost giants after all . . . i'd also assume kal could kill all of them pretty effortlessly if he chose to do so--and that's without heat vision.again, masterson . . . he could try illusions, but i don't really see them working. more though, i don't really see him having the time to cast them.
Magical illusions are worthless against Superman. Yeah... that makes sense. Loki's cast magic at the speed of thought. In DC, speed of thought has been quantified as surpassing speed of light movement. In Marvel, speed of thought has been quantified as equaling speed of light execution. So... ?
Originally posted by leonidasI've already showed you Ghost Rider's hellfire? But Thor has waded through Mephisto's hellfire without having his soul seared either. But if you're not even going to acknowledge the Ghost Rider scan, not sure posting the Mephisto scan would prove anything but fruitless:
from mephisto? i don't recall that but would love to see it.circular. we'll not convince the other of our pov's.
Loki's interest has always been ruling. after the surtur disaster he tried to be named ruler. if he could kill odin so easily he would have. again, in the aftermath of the 'snow feat' it's easy to go back and rationalize away the reasons why loki simply didn't transmute odin in the past and kill him. or kill thor. surely he could simply turn invisible and transmute thor any time he chose to do so, especially in the early days when thor didn't even HAVE mjolnir. to assume the snow feat is NOT pis, requires too many rationalizations. i for one am not comfortable with that in the least.
Circular to you because you unilaterally dismiss the Bor-into-snow feat. But I'm not mentioning it to convince you. I'm mentioning it because it's an instance where Asgardians can (and have demonstrated) increased magical resistance.
He only tried to be named ruler after the Surtur disaster as a manner of politics as it was unclear whether Thor would ever return from his journey into Hel. Other times, Loki has tried to usurp Odin's body because Thor was still around to oppose him. Killing Odin, only to face the wrath of Thor is somewhat pointless. Now... taking over his body and ruling over them all... now that sounds like Loki. And Loki can't just simply transmute or kill Thor as he has known him for ages, he has Mjolnir (which even tingles when Loki's close lol), and has exhibited increased magical resistance. Loki's magic is godly. He is a god. And you act like Thor can't match him on that same level. As a god.
Originally posted by leonidasLoki can cast spells while intangible/undetectable:
astrally, yes. intangible? i still await the feats . . .says you.
on teh surface true. now show me him hitting someone moving at lightspeed.
Now if you feel it's fair to force me at every turn to prove that Loki can do something by posting an exact on-panel instance, then it's only fair to hold you at the same standards. Prove that Superman can vibrate himself onto the same plane that Loki (or any magic user) does through magic.
Considering that Superman has been hit by magic before and he doesn't move at light speed 100% of the time, then this inquiry is inapposite. Prove that Superman would even move at light speed against Loki instantly first. Once you establish that, it's fair to ask me. But then again, one of the few magicians he's used superspeed against was Arion, and he didn't even use it until at the very end after getting blasted and contending with summons, so...
Originally posted by leonidasExactly what? That Loki would use his magic and keep his distance? Ok...
exactly.problem is he CAN keep his distance from thor because thor lacks the speed feats kal possesses. frankly, loki has ZERO feats that would show he can react to superman's level of speed. or if the feats DO exist, i've not seen them and await their unveiling.
you ask how I believe loki might win, then i tell you MY opinion and then you say i shouldn't even believe what i believe? presumptuous much?
You can keep your distance by entrapping Superman in magical bonds or going intangible. Distance =/= lack of contact, but in this sense, such tactics which prevent contact fulfill the same purpose.
You couched your opinion that "if loki had a little prep, if he had feats showing he could deal with clark's speed" then you'd change your opinion. But here, Loki has no prep. Here (to you anyway), Loki has no feats to deal with his speed. So again, how does Loki even win a few here? Backhanded qualifications do not a conclusion make.
Originally posted by leonidasOnce again, while insisting in one hand for specific quantification of light speed feats of Loki, you couch your opinions with half-hearted "maybe Loki can match them" with the your other hand to feign a sense of reasonableness. Here's where that illusion falls apart: You still haven't substantiated that Superman would or could use instant light speed to combat Loki. Since you feel it's fair to ask for scans at every turn, then I ask you to do the same. Show me where Superman instantly uses light speed against a dangerous foe and/or magical foe. I look forward to your response.
tp users have been shown to be able to react to superspeed in the past. there is SOME evidence (not very strong) that loki MAY be able to track kal and perhaps react quickly enough to cast a spell that would buy him time to whip up k-nite or take kal to the astral plane.so, i've entertained your question and explained how i see BOTH winning this match. you've yet to say . . . anything at all really, as regards the battle and how it would go. if you're so sure loki would win, show everyone proof of his being able to handle kal's speed, and show us the attacks/spells he could use quickly enough to take superman down for the count.
frankly, that argument is beneath you. 😬
used to the full extent, given knowledge and all that . . . kal would know if he didn't end it quick, he might not GET a chance to end it. without speed blitz he'd have a much smaller chance to win. he could still dodge blasts easily enough, but area spells could take him out--though which specific spell i don't know, and wait for you to highlight.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Just Frost Giants? "Creatures as ancient and eternal as the planet, as mercilessly powerful as winter itself?" All purple prose aside, you make them sound like a bunch of dumb, slow Giantman/Goliaths.
they are. 😐
And these Frost Giants were amped.
not in any qauntifiable way. why you harp on the issue still i've no idea, but continue if you feel it aids your case somehow. 😉
Magical illusions are worthless against Superman. Yeah... that makes sense.
kal has seen through illusions many times with his senses and loki would need to cast the spell. then he'd still need a spell to strike kal once kal started moving at speed even if the illusions worked for a time.
Loki's cast magic at the speed of thought. In DC, speed of thought has been quantified as surpassing speed of light movement. In Marvel, speed of thought has been quantified as equaling speed of light execution. So... ?
oi. sophistry. i'll not engage in a debate about the undetermined speed of loki's thoughts based on inconsistently portrayed abc logic. you feel that to be a strong foundation of proof, bully for you. crux of the whole thing is has loki shown to be able to cast and react to the speeds kal has repeatedly demonstrated. you have shown no proof whatsoever. everyone can see it yet you continue to harp on irrelevent parts of the discussion. when you have proof of loki's being able to deal with clark's speed beyond saying he can think fast because someone else has done this or that, post it and prove me wrong. simple as.
I've already showed you Ghost Rider's hellfire?
no you didn't but don't bother, it has no bearing.
But Thor has waded through Mephisto's hellfire without having his soul seared either. But if you're not even going to acknowledge the Ghost Rider scan, not sure posting the Mephisto scan would prove anything but fruitless:
agreed, as is this discussion.
Circular to you because you unilaterally dismiss the Bor-into-snow feat. But I'm not mentioning it to convince you. I'm mentioning it because it's an instance where Asgardians can (and have demonstrated) increased magical resistance.
what? only if bor had time to RAISE the defenses could he have stopped the spell. how is that showing increased resistence exactly?
He only tried to be named ruler after the Surtur disaster as a manner of politics as it was unclear whether Thor would ever return from his journey into Hel. Other times, Loki has tried to usurp Odin's body because Thor was still around to oppose him. Killing Odin, only to face the wrath of Thor is somewhat pointless. Now... taking over his body and ruling over them all... now that sounds like Loki. And Loki can't just simply transmute or kill Thor as he has known him for ages, he has Mjolnir (which even tingles when Loki's close lol), and has exhibited increased magical resistance. Loki's magic is godly. He is a god. And you act like Thor can't match him on that same level. As a god.
bor was a god too. lot of good that did him. so loki can't transmute balder, or volstagg or heimdal either because they are gods too. and who cares if he's a god? kal has the powers of a god. don't see your point.
Loki can cast spells while intangible/undetectable:
hmm, thought he was in astral form there. i'll check. i said he can cast in astral form. never saw him do it intangible. and even if he can, he'd then need to cast 2 spells and still show he can hit kal moving at speed.
Now if you feel it's fair to force me at every turn to prove that Loki can do something by posting an exact on-panel instance, then it's only fair to hold you at the same standards. Prove that Superman can vibrate himself onto the same plane that Loki (or any magic user) does through magic.
never said he could. you said he couldn't. i already said if he could go intangible it might buy him time. i'm sure you're aware, but not all these situations arise in the books so we need to suspend a little disbelief which makes taking a firm stance pretty ridiculous, hence the hedging of some of my bets. likely that loki can deal with kal's speed? no. is there a chance? yes. a chance kal wouldn't blitz from the start? yes, a small one based on forum rules. if he doesn't could loki win? of course. it's really not that difficult to keep both positions in mind at all. you seem to demand this black and white answer which is frankly ridiculous nor--by any stretch of teh imagination--are you owed that.
Exactly what?
exactly he avoids physical battle with thor because thor>>loki in h2h.
That Loki would use his magic and keep his distance? Ok...
because he CAN keep distance from thor. not so against kal.
You can keep your distance by entrapping Superman in magical bonds or going intangible. Distance =/= lack of contact, but in this sense, such tactics which prevent contact fulfill the same purpose.
if he gets time. despite all your efforts you've shown no proof to support the idea he could deal with kal's speed or use a speel to hit him when he's actively trying to avoid loki.
You couched your opinion that "if loki had a little prep, if he had feats showing he could deal with clark's speed" then you'd change your opinion. But here, Loki has no prep. Here (to you anyway), Loki has no feats to deal with his speed. So again, how does Loki even win a few here? Backhanded qualifications do not a conclusion make. Once again, while insisting in one hand for specific quantification of light speed feats of Loki, you couch your opinions with half-hearted "maybe Loki can match them" with the your other hand to feign a sense of reasonableness. Here's where that illusion falls apart: You still haven't substantiated that Superman would or could use instant light speed to combat Loki. Since you feel it's fair to ask for scans at every turn, then I ask you to do the same. Show me where Superman instantly uses light speed against a dangerous foe and/or magical foe. I look forward to your response.
😂
prove kal could use his speed to avoid being blasted byb magic in a forum battle where he gets knowledge and full use of his abilities? how about if you feign reasonableness and see that for the ridiculous demand it is.
once again, i've offered explanations for my reasoning and you've spent time parrying and dodging and harping on tangential points.
prove loki can deal with kal's speed.
enlighten us with your vision of the battle with any proof at all to support the claim loki can handle kal's speed and win. show us the spells loki would use to ko kal. show us . . . anything at all, actually. 😬
Originally posted by manx422
Superman
isnt reposting the same comment about who wins just trolling and spamming?
now to the rest of you guys. does Loki have auto shields like dr. strange?
only way i see Supes winning if he blitzes him at ftl speed. but that cant be consistent attack for him to get him the majority..
again Superman would know nothing of loki or very little while loki will know every thing about him or just about since he is always doing interviews.