Superman Vs Wonderwoman

A few things I must address, if they haven't already been covered(started reading this from Page 1).

Bluewater, there's a serious flaw in your argument about Wonder Woman could've killed Superman at anytime. That him being handicapped thing? Do you realize that Diana pretty much only succeeded in slicing his throat with her tiara BECAUSE he wasn't really seeing what was going on? Why would he expect Doomsday to connect with a punch from that distance? In fact, that's why she did as well as she did during the fight aside from his irrational status, that he didn't really have the proper mind-set to fight who he was fighting. If he had known it was Wonder Woman the entire time, the most likely outcome when she threw the tiara was he'd simply dodge it. And it can only harm him if it can hit him. Which completely invalidates your argument that Superman couldn't stop her tiara with his breath under normal circumstances(which are what forum VS fights are unless extenuating circumstances are established by the OP).

And this, that Salsa showed earlier.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW.jpg

This is actually worse for your unsubstantiated belief that Diana is stronger than Superman than me pointing-out her failure to break his rape-choke. This isn't the best position for a leverage advantage either and he's calm. And in fact, I'd say it further supports that Superman didn't intend to kill Doomsday immediately(but wanted to make him "suffer" first) as this example of him showing such a strength advantage while calm proves if he was trying to immediately kill Doomsday, he would've snapped her neck and crushed her trachea as soon as he grabbed her by the throat when enraged.

And you show utter ignorance, or just hoping ignorance on others, when attempting to deflect that Diana blatantly states that Power Girl is AT LEAST as strong as she is by saying Karen's a Pre-CRISIS Kryptonian. Last I checked, she was, but Earth-2. Which were weaker than Earth-1 Kryptonians. Kal-L was specifically stated to be weaker than Pre-CRISIS Kal-El, and Superboy Prime seemed closer. Around INFINITE CRISIS, Post-CRISIS Kal-El and Kal-L fought to an essential stalemate, showing Earth-2 Kryptonians are roughly on par with New Earth Kryptonians.

Also, about you arguing that the Sun wasn't really behind her when Superman was about to punch her? Salsa pointed-out the Kryptonite glowing, but another thing one could point-out, is the fact that Superman's a bit in front and to the side of her, and the light is reflecting off him. Fact of the matter is, she's got the Sun behind her, is about to be punched into it, and for some reason ends up knocked to Earth, instead.

Also, you made the argument that Captain Marvel might be stronger than Superman because.....he stalemated Superman in arm wrestling until there was power-sharing? This makes no sense whatsoever. How is he stronger because he stalemated until his strength was decreased? And there's a serious problem with your argument besides this gaping flaw in logic. The arm wrestling match happened before Mongul Junior started training Superman, and thus Superman's power got boosted. In fact, this is how well Captain Marvel did against a weakened Superman. Prior to this, Superman had fought two large, powerful groups of metas, had some of his solar energy drained, and had unspecified but ever increasing exposure to Kryptonite before any of the fights. And Superman's particularly feeling it by the time he fights Captain Marvel. Yet, this is how Billy does.....

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=SupermanBatman04-20.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=SupermanBatman04-21.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=SupermanBatman04-22.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=SupermanBatman04-23.jpg

Despite starting off with a sneak-attack, the best Captain Marvel can get against a weakened Superman is a stalemate while looking inferior, including Superman blatantly showing superior strength by catching CM's punch.

This coupled with how Superman's looked better against Wonder Woman and the Ace androids(on numerous occasions) pretty much proves that Superman's actually stronger than Captain Marvel, despite the perception that they're equals.

Captain Marvel has also done better against Superman than Wonder Woman has, showing that he's stronger than her too, despite your beliefs.

When it came down to it on the DC boards, you didn't actually have any real evidence. Just an either manipulated or misinterpreted example, and the belief that Wonder Woman got stronger(even though you couldn't actually show any examples) and Superman got powered-down(despite you couldn't prove it, just showed you couldn't comprehend writers having different portrayals) and compared to the shared Earth moving example, despite Superman has numerous feats of strength that put that to shame, and the only examples for Wonder Woman that are better than that are shared with Superman.

Also, you never did admit you had no clue what you were talking about when you brought-up me giving the Brock Lesnar/Frank Mir analogy, and had Superman as Brock and Diana as Frank, and said you didn't understand how I could see that as being stronger. And showed Mir submitting Lesnar with a kneebar. And didn't admit you had no knowledge whatsoever of submissions or how they work. Here's some education.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JskKMss-rUw

While Mir used a kneebar, not an armbar, the principals are still the same.

Originally posted by Delta1938
There's a serious flaw in your argument about Wonder Woman could've killed Superman at anytime [in "Sacrifice" aka Wonder Woman v2 #219]. That him being handicapped thing? Do you realize that Diana pretty much only succeeded in slicing his throat with her tiara BECAUSE he wasn't really seeing what was going on?

In other words, Wonder Woman could have killed Superman virtually anytime around and after that earclap segment in Sacrifice, much as I said earlier.

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I should point out, since this is your first time visiting this thread that this isn't a typical "versus" match.

The question of the original poster (OP) was as follows:

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so anyone know the exact score on wins and losses they have to each other. I know the two have fought on several occassions but I have trouble getting my hands on the issues where they do fight. also some of the links on the WonderWoman respect thread are broken

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You can see from the above that the OP wants to know, historically, what DID happen between these two.
Not what people arranging KMC style matches would have happen by KMC forum rules.

Note that, in addition to supplying historical background for better context, I've been systematically and thoroughly answering that question.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In other words, Wonder Woman could have killed Superman virtually anytime around and after that earclap segment in Sacrifice, much as I said earlier.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I should point out, since this is your first time visiting this thread that this isn't a typical "versus" match.

The question of the original poster (OP) was as follows:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

so anyone know the exact score on wins and losses they have to each other. I know the two have fought on several occassions but I have trouble getting my hands on the issues where they do fight. also some of the links on the WonderWoman respect thread are broken

---------------------------------------------------------------------

You can see from the above that the OP wants to know, historically, what DID happen between these two.
Not what people arranging KMC style matches would have happen by KMC forum rules.

Note that, in addition to supplying historical background for better context, I've been systematically and thoroughly answering that question.

That changes neither the fact that Diana was only able to pull-off the tiara thing BECAUSE Superman wasn't truly aware of what was going on. If he knew it was Wonder Woman, and not Doomsday, he could've and most likely would've dodged it at any time. Yet, on more than one occasion, we've seen she couldn't keep-up with him, including in SACRIFICE if he was really charging her. As shown in Salsa's post of restraining her on her knees, he's so much stronger than her that he could've easily snapped her neck as soon as he grabbed her.

And it doesn't change the fact that you've been using this as your platform to try and "prove" your false belief that Diana is stronger than Superman. I remember our arguments on the DC boards. You're still using the same tricks to dance around and dodge all the points and posts that rip apart your arguments and "evidence." Which, you didn't actually have any.

But I'm sure you'll continue to dodge the vast majority of things brought-up, since you know they're right.

Sorry if these points have already been covered, I'm only gradually going through the previous posts.

For one, you seem to believe that Superman's power only works like a LASER, instead of him being able to control it's output/temperature like PR pointed-out. While Superman CAN produce LASERs for cutting with it, he has quite a bit of control over it, no matter if it's small or wide-angled, and can indeed control the temp. If not, then he would've essentially decapitated this alien instead of just temporarily blinded him.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=ManOfSteel115p08.jpg

Also, I don't have a scan, but there was a time where he used small focused beams to simply warm-up(instead of disintegrate) a dish him and Lois were bringing to Perry. He can also apparently control, at least to a degree, what's actually in it, like when he focused on projecting microwaves to disable nanobots in Lois(I think) and others.

As for one you couldn't understand, that was Superman using his Heat Vision to seal tears between separate universes.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=NewGods10-11.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=NewGods10-12.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=NewGods10-13.jpg

So, he cauterized holes in reality. Yes, he most certainly could have produced greater heat than when he fought Diana in SACRIFICE. Once again, something about your ignorance of Superman.

As for OUR WORLDS AT WAR, you continue to miss the fact that Superman being Sun-Amped does NOT happen until about the very end. Through-out the entire storyline, very few, even teams, can handle Imperiex Probes. One devastates J'Onn and is more than Kyle and Wally can handle together, and I think it then proceeds to fight Diana and Aquaman together, and they can't even scratch it. Entire teams at best were having trouble with individual Probes, at worst getting owned. Superman is one of the very few who can actually defeat them one-on-one without special circumstances(Diana using her shield to attack a weak spot, Aquaman using the Trident Of Posideon or however it's spelled, Black Lightning being amped against one that'd already been fighting a lot). This is most of the fights Superman had with the Imperiex Probes, chronologically. First one was actually before OUR WORLDS AT WAR, but the issue was hinting what was to come.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Imperiex%20Probes/

Originally posted by Delta1938

It'd be nice for you to actually acknowledge my arguments and admit that you've got nothing instead of use a bunch of complicated speech to distract from the fact that ya got nuthin'.

I'm thinking the same thing of most of the people who are arguing for Superman.
What have you got that proves Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman?

As for acknowledgement, most of your arguments seem to be either fallacies or irrelevant to most anything being discussed in this thread.

To be fair, however, by your own admission, you have not actually read through most of the thread, and it is good that you are honest enough to admit that.

Nevertheless, I'll take a few moments to address some of your points in subsequent posts if and as time permits.

Originally posted by Delta1938
You have no actual proof that Superman was strengthened. All you can prove is the extra sun exposure increased his resistance to Kryptonite.

Superman's metahuman powers are a package deal.

Where have you seen an increase in sunlight enhance exactly ONE superhuman ability and not affect the others?

Perhaps you do not actually know that yellow solar radiation increases his power? Certainly you do not seem to realize that their is a RANGE of power levels any particular post-Crisis Kryptonian can be at, proportionate to the amount of solar energy they've absorbed or are absorbing.

Let's show you the following and see how you respond.

JLA/JSA Virtue and Vice was mentioned previously.
Salsa mentioned that book to show me how revered Superman and Alan Scott were by their teammates.

Think his phrasing was "most powerful" or some such.
No point in my spending time checking out the exact wording; he can correct me himself if he thinks he's being mis-paraphrased.

Long story short, I told him I don't get that impression from reading Virtue and Vice. I doubt anyone who is not severely pro-Superman biased would, really. Salsa later corrected and explained he was going off of some tie-in and not the main Virtue and Vice trade itself.
That made more sense.
For I went on to explain that the average person would get a far greater impression of Dr. Fate being a wrecker than anyone would Superman. With only a wave of his hand, for instance, he sends Superman, Wonder Woman, Stargirl and perhaps one other to his tower.
Think Fate follows later on by putting many of the same people into limbo.

Superman goes where Fate sends him, and seemingly has absolutely no say so about it. Once there, he soon finds himself drained of solar energy, and vulnerable to the otherwise mundane challenges to be found there.
The heroes manage to find a way out, though.

Stargirl decides it's time to help her teammate out at that point ...

Originally posted by Delta1938
You have no actual proof that Superman was strengthened. All you can prove is the extra sun exposure increased his resistance to Kryptonite.

Again, it's a package deal.

More sun/yellow solar energy = more power.

And one of those powers is strength.

More yellow solar energy equals more physical strength.

Courtney knows this. She demonstrated that in JLA/JSA Virtue and Vice. Want to argue "power" not "strength"?

Won't work.

It's not like the argument about physical strength where Wonder Woman is concerned. This is basic definition of post-Crisis Kryptonian powerset.

Superstrength is inherent in those sunpowers.
Granted, there can be other factors that can affect strength.
Gravity and perhaps even willpower come to mind.

But the basic fact is yellow sun strengthens.

Again, Courtney knows this. Her author, de facto, did as well. Jeph Loeb, who also wrote Courtney, knew this, too.
I don't know of too many authors at DC that don't.

Maybe you can find a few that are that oblivious.
But I sincerely doubt it.

At any rate, as I said before in this thread, we're pretending that DC operates on consistent rules. It really doesn't, of course, but the creative staff tries make it so to the greatest extent they can.

So, again, yellow sun increases power. Including strength.

Going from that basic idea, you would expect that someone who knows this, like our Stargirl Courtney, would try to apply that knowledge if, say, a Kryptonian ally like Supergirl would benefit from being made strong enough to handle an unxpected alpha level threat.

And so she does.

Hence, we see the following:

Unfortunately, Stargirl's overall plan does not work.

The localized solar blast does.

Supergirl TELLS us she can feel it working.

That small rod light does indeed make her physically stronger.

Perhaps again you'll want to say "power", not "strength".

Again, won't work. Supergirl tells us the problem is that her opponent is getting STRONGER, too.

Not merely "more powerful" or "more resistant to kryptonite".

Stronger.

Because superstrength is one of the things increased when post-Crisis Kryptonians are exposed to higher levels of yellow solar radiation.

Incidentally, for absolute purists, there is exactly one word that has been excised in this second scan. It is a curse word that does nothing to alter the meaning of what is happening here, and would violate KMC's family guidelines were it to remain. I try to make sure whatever I post is always "general ages" friendly, so if you really REALLY want to see it, I'd suggest checking out the book.

If you're really nice, I suspect BienSalsa would be willing to share the full page's image, but that's entirely up to him.

For going the conventional route, my next post will have the reference information for both magazines showcased here.

As promised, you'll find the reference information for my 3 previous scans below.

The one of Courtney charging Superman is as follows ...

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Source: JLA/JSA. Virtue and Vice.
Writer: Geoff Johns
Penciller: Carlos Pacheco
Date: December 2002
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA/JSA:_Virtue_and_Vice

... and the one of Courtney making Supergirl stronger is as follows.

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Source: Supergirl #1, Volume 5
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciller: Ian Churchill
Date: October 2005
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Supergirl_Vol_5_1

I'll include a small version of the full page.
Note that, again, one curse word has been omitted from the text.

I suppose I could have inserted "Darn it" if I wanted to be more faithful, but, it's not any moment of concern for me beyond making it all ages appropriate.

Again, with the information above you can track down the actual book if you don't trust me, and, alternately, I will say I've found Salsa to be rather kind about supplying scan requests if asked politely.

Originally posted by Delta1938
It's especially ridiculous you're claiming he was increased 40 times beyond his normal strength.

What "especially ridiculous" is you claiming I ever said, wrote, or typed this anywhere at anytime in history.

This is an example of a fallacy, by the way, which I'll define for you in a later post if you don't understand what the term means, and how such differs from a legitimate argument.

I believe the particular brand of it is "straw man"?
But please -- don't quote me on that.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm thinking the same thing of most of the people who are arguing for Superman.
What have you got that proves Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman?

As for acknowledgement, most of your arguments seem to be either fallacies or irrelevant to most anything being discussed in this thread.

To be fair, however, by your own admission, you have not actually read through most of the thread, and it is good that you are honest enough to admit that.

Nevertheless, I'll take a few moments to address some of your points in subsequent posts if and as time permits.

No, my arguments are neither fallacies nor irrelevant. And I've got the same reasons for KNOWING that Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman that many here have already stated. His feats of strength are simply far more impressive(not just in quantity, but in quality), he's generally shown to be stronger against common opponents, and he's simply proven to be stronger than her in fights. This has generally been consistent through-out their entire history. Sure, you can cherry pick some examples, manipulate scans, to make her look stronger, but the bulk of evidence goes against your belief. And the very fact that I never saw you provide any hard evidence supports it.

Since you've referenced the DC boards before, and haven't denied about me having sparred with you before there about this very subject, I'll assume you are that guy. I don't recall the username, but Abhi saying "guest2" sounds right, and I most certainly remember your posting style. Everything from your grammar to syntax to argument style to how you present your scans. It's spot-on from what I remember. You never showed any hard evidence back then, and I've gone through 15 pages and it's remained the same.

As for your argument about Superman's power being boosted, you don't need to explain to me how his powers work. I know how Superman's powers work. What you need to do is explain how if he truly was boosted how it is that he didn't single-handedly violently and creatively violate the entire combined JLA team. I provided the scans of his original, pre-power-up fight with Orion, and his fight with Orion in the very same issue. Yes, Superman had a better performance in the first than the second, but he had already had a power-up so if he truly was boosted to where it caused a noticeable effect in his performance, Orion would not have had a chance, as he required help to win a fight with Byrne-era Superman.

Basically, his fight with Orion proves he had no noticeable enhancement to his performance. No amount of "educating" on how Superman's powers work will explain this away. You need to come with a credible reason why Orion wasn't treated like an angry prisoner's "girlfriend" in that fight. And I've proven that Orion is not more durable than Superman like you claimed on the DC boards, and pointed-out that his "help" was utterly irrelevant and might as well have not existed. So, the only other logical conclusion is he wasn't truly amped.

As for my other posts, how is this a fallacy or irrelevant?

I'll call the following "rape-choke" for lack of a better term. Superman did this to Wonder Woman.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=WonderWomanv221905.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=WonderWomanv221906.jpg

And she was unable to break his grip at all, even before she was brought outside Earth's atmosphere. And this video is completely relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9srBDFW0Z0

It establishes that the technique Wonder Woman used in an ATTEMPT to defend herself allows a victim to break the grip of a STRONGER attacker. And I've practiced this technique, on both ends, and can personally attest that it does work as the video describes. If she actually were stronger then she could've easily broken his grip with this technique. But she utterly fails to, proving not only is he stronger, but MUCH stronger. How is this either irrelevant or a fallacy?

If you're talking about my scans comparing Superman and Orion's durability, they're neither irrelevant nor a fallacy. They're to establish that you're incorrect about Orion being more durable than Superman, which you had previously used to justify the fact that comparing Orion's fight with Superman in MAN OF TOMORROW #13 to the Byrne-era fight proves Superman had no noticeable performance enhancement, making that a false argument about Superman truly being enhanced when MOT #13 is shown as Superman being blatantly stronger than Wonder Woman.

If you're talking about my posts of Anderson Silva's tribute video and the Wikipedia links showing his accomplishments and his fight record, well that was for my own amusement(which is fairly easy when sleep deprived). But it's also to paint the picture for how likely you are to prove that Wonder Woman is stronger, and it's an accurate picture. Like I said, back on the DC boards you showed no actual evidence, simply a misunderstanding(or even manipulation) of what you call "The Dark Knight Litmus Test" and a false assumption that Superman had been powered-down which, when comparing to moving the Sun, means Wonder Woman being powered-up(which I might point-out you couldn't prove either) means she's stronger than him.

If you're talking about this--

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW.jpg

I see neither how it's irrelevant nor a fallacy. It's a perfectly calm Superman overpowering Wonder Woman, yes, from the exact era you're claiming she's stronger than him in. And I'd have to say that after seeing this, it supports that Superman was indeed not initially going all-out, that he intended to make "Doomsday" suffer before killing, as if he were trying to immediately kill her(instead of it being the end goal), her neck would've been snapped as soon as he rape-choked her.

And the Power Girl thing? Well, that is relevant due to the fact that Wonder Woman blatantly admits that PG is at least as strong as herself. And Superman's stronger(her needing lots of help to pull Superman from the Source Wall compared to Superman pulling Darkseid from it on his own and her failing to restrain Superman despite lots of help are merely two examples) so yes, this is relevant. You tried to dismiss this argument as her being a Pre-CRISIS Kryptonian means she should be way, way stronger than she is, on Superboy Prime's level. I explained how Pre-CRISIS Earth-2 Kryptonians were weaker than Pre-CRISIS Earth-1 Kryptonians, and pointed-out the fight between Kal-L and Kal-El around INFINITE CRISIS as proof that E2 Kryptonians are roughly on par with Post-CRISIS Superman. So, yes, this is relevant.

The Captain Marvel/Superman scans? You had posted previously in your claim that Wonder Woman is stronger than both Superman and Captain Marvel, and posted some stuff saying Captain Marvel is perhaps stronger than Superman. Due to, him stalemating Superman in arm-wrestling until he ended-up having to power-share, which makes no sense in why it'd mean he was stronger. I pointed-out that this happened before Superman's Mongul Junior training that increased his strength and other powers. It's as irrelevant as your posts earlier. Also, I didn't get into this at the time, but you tried to argue that Captain Marvel is perhaps stronger than Superman because of KINGDOM COME Captain Marvel's fight with KINGDOM COME Superman. Well, there's a bunch of problems with that. If that were proof that Captain Marvel is stronger than Superman, why is it he never showed it? Captain Marvel has only beaten Superman via mystically enhanced sucker-punching. And, ya know, I didn't actually SEE anything in KINGDOM COME indicating Superman truly was stronger than main-stream Superman. All they really did was state Kryptonite wouldn't have the same effect. I know about the whole comparison against Hercules example you referenced(and posted on the DC boards) but that's after KINGDOM COME. Not to mention the only other example I'm aware of that actually compares KC Superman and New Earth Superman only indicates, not shows, that KC Superman might be stronger.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Vs%20KC%20Superman/

And the other stuff I mentioned about the Ace androids was to establish that Superman is indeed superior to Captain Marvel. Superman has done better against Captain Marvel than I've ever seen Wonder Woman do, so I'd say that proves he's stronger than her.

About Superman's Heat Vision, I was simply correcting you that Superman's Heat Vision doesn't work like you think it is, that it HAS to be focused more intensely to get hotter. And your belief that Superman couldn't have made his Heat Vision any more intense or hotter than he did in the SACRIFICE fight, when he has.

(TO BE CONTINUED)

Then I went about telling you a bit more about OUR WORLDS AT WAR. As Pr mentioned, that's the reason why people think Superman's above EVERYBODY. There'd already been numerous examples of this, but it truly drove the point home. This was Superman's WORLD WAR HULK before WORLD WAR HULK, and unlikely WORLD WAR HULK it truly did show Superman on another level compared to everybody else. You apparently think Superman was amped most or the entire time, he was not. It wasn't until essentially the very end. His performance against Imperiex Probes made everybody else seem borderline irrelevant and useless through much of the storyline. And I've seen absolutely nothing to change that fact with Wonder Woman compared to Superman. You never showed anything to change that on the DC boards, and you've yet to show anything to contradict this in the first 14 pages since you started posting here(starting with Page 2). It's funny you're the one asking why people think(but we really know) Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman, but it's been told to you, yet you're the one not showing when asked why you think WW is the stronger of the two. You're just giving a bunch of arguments based on wishful thinking, not hard evidence, and nitpicking to try and dismiss evidence when shown. If you even acknowledge it. Still waiting for explanations for how her failing to break his rape-choke doesn't show him being MUCH stronger than her, or how he's easily restraining her while calm before he's given the illusion that Doomsday killed Lois, and this is just from me.

And you keep ignoring the fact that his state of mind was a serious, serious handicap that would have him fight less effectively against Wonder Woman had he not been in his situation(irrational and illusion-induced). If you really think that Diana could have killed him any time after the ear attack were Superman in a proper state of mind, or that she could've actually done that in the first place if he weren't thinking he fought Doomsday, then answer me this. If you were to drop some acid, wait for the hallucinations to start, then got into a fight and you didn't know who you were fighting, do you think that would end well for you? If you're honest, you'll answer "no, it would not end well." That's pretty much what the case was for Superman. Were he not in his situation, he could've and most likely would've easily dodged that tiara throw.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What "especially ridiculous" is you claiming I ever said, wrote, or typed this anywhere at anytime in history.

This is an example of a fallacy, by the way, which I'll define for you in a later post if you don't understand what the term means, and how such differs from a legitimate argument.

I believe the particular brand of it is "straw man"?
But please -- don't quote me on that.

You would be correct about strawman if I were trying to distract from the topic. Which I wasn't. As for the 40 times thing, I swear one of your scans about the MOT #13 restraining struggle had something along the lines of "40 times stronger than normal" in the file name. And it wasn't just a one time misread, I had seen it at least 3 times, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it. You must've used voodoo or something to change it. 😠 😠 But you did claim that they find him stronger than normal, when nothing's stated there. As I pointed-out, Orion would've been OWNED instead of stalemated. This isn't the only example of him being restrained by a group of Top-Tier bricks and them either failing or struggling to hold him.

This thread just went from zero to epic.

It's actually been doing that for the past month, P.R.

You've been missing in action.

This thread had less than 5,000 views, even though it had been around for 2 years or more, before I came.

That was ... what? 7 weeks ago? 8?

It's up well over 10,000 now.

Originally posted by Delta1938
... the 40 times thing ...
I swear one of your scans about the MOT #13 restraining struggle had something along the lines of "40 times stronger than normal" in the file name. And it wasn't just a one time misread, I had seen it at least 3 times, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it. You must've used voodoo or something to change it. 😠 😠

Little hasty, eh?

Typical.

You're actually illustrating one of the reasons I'm debating here.

Nevertheless, let me clear up your confusion.

"40" and "stronger than normal" WERE seen by you.
They are part of the tag used in one of my personal desktop folders to name the scan.
The tag appears only to unregistered "guests", however.
When you actually LOG IN as "Delta1938" you no longer see the attachment as a link, because you see it instead as an image.

The word "times" does not appear anywhere as part of the tag of that scan, however.

You simply read too fast and ASSUMED, wrongly, that I intended that to say what you claimed earlier.

In point of fact, when organizing scans in a folder for KMC, I often number my selections and count by tens. If I have four scans to upload, the first one will be "10", the second one will be "20", the third one will be "30", the fourth one will be "40", and so on.

Incidentally, the primary reasons for my editing scans are not to "manipulate" or "fool" or "hoodwink" or whatever perjorative term you want to use.

It's first and foremost because KMC has a 250 KB size limit that attachments must adhere to, and in actuality it's more like 235. If I'm going to have something big enough to actually show people, I CAN'T show a full page and expect the text to be big enough for people to read.

As for verification, that's NEVER the problem you would make it out to be. Posting the side OPPOSING Superman in a thread in a Superman forum? You think ANYthing remotely controversial that I post is going to go unchallenged?

Hasn't happened so far, I'll tell you...

Finally, not only do I TELL people when I am making a change, but I give them links and reference info so they investigate on their own.

The problem is most people don't actually READ what other participants post, just assume they know and proceed from there.

Originally posted by Delta1938
If you were to drop some acid, wait for the hallucinations to start, then got into a fight and you didn't know who you were fighting, do you think that would end well for you? If you're honest ...

Superman's bigger. In Sacrifice, he's sunamped, unpredictable, and swinging wildly.

You like MMA style comparisons; I happen to know of a fighter who was just like that in competition.

Bring YOUR honesty this time, look at the following, especially around the 2:22 mark, and tell me where this comparison fails as a "Sacrifice" analog, if at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtwGH7mi0K8&feature=related

(Sapp v. Kimo)

Originally posted by Delta1938
... OUR WORLDS AT WAR... As Pr mentioned, that's the reason why people think Superman's above EVERYBODY...
His performance against Imperiex Probes made everybody else seem borderline irrelevant and useless through much of the storyline. And I've seen absolutely nothing to change that fact with Wonder Woman compared to Superman.

Let's address a few things a bit more seriously.

One, logic doesn't just cut one way.
If your theory that Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman were valid, and certainly as much stronger as you claim, you should see evidence of it, it would be consistent across the board, and there shouldn't be huge anomalies.

It wouldn't rely on ignoring basic facts about the characters themselves and how their powers work.
It wouldn't rely on conflating things like heat vision or invulnerability with strength and pretending they're equal.

For instance, you mention that Superman had a stellar performance against Imperiex Probes here.

All well and good, but, what you fail to mention is that the price of destroying any particular probe was to have one BLOW UP IN YOUR FACE. This is precisely what happened in the case of Wonder Woman, who does NOT have Superman-level durability, as I've stated repeatedly throughout this thread. That explosion nearly took her out. I could tell as much from the one part of the OWAW story I DO own, Wonder Woman v2 #174 or 175, where they use the purple ray and everything else they can to bring Diana back.

Your own Photobucket album confirmed what I thought was the case. In fact, it shows not only Diana being nearly taken out, but much of the rest of the JLA being knocked out by the explosion. Later on, Diana's own mother takes out a 2nd probe. And pays the ultimate price. It blows up in her face and Hippolyta is GONE, and the only thing saving Diana from the explosion was distance and the protective field of her bracers.

Looking at that, someone saying "Superman can take Imperiex Probes apart and no one else could scratch one!"

... is absolutely absurd.

What FOOL would try to take a hammer to a bomb as his or her means of disposing of it? (And no, Wolverine doesn't count; he PROVES the point.)

Even here there are several more things wrong with the showing. For starters, presuming you wanted me to see Superman taking the arm of an Imperiex probe off as a show of strength, you conveniently ignore that Aquaman breaks its severed hand open, proving that Superman is NOT the only one with strength enough to crack or break an imperiex shell, and, perhaps you did not notice yourself, but, Superman mentions that he cauterized the unit.

I don't know if you know what that word means, it basically translates into cutting and sealing with heat.

So Superman used his heat visions on that thing, in whole or in part to remove that arm, and Aquaman cracked the hand.
If he HAD tried to take the arm off himself, it would have meant his life, and Superman told him as much.

In other words, from what you describe of OWAW, Superman is revered because he can take out some explosives that his friends DARE not detonate for fear of said explosives (the Imperiex clones) blowing up in their face and killing them, as it DOES to one of them (Hippolyta) and nearly does to a second (Diana).

Hardly a case for consideration, Delta.

As for Sacrifice.

1. Salsa's "kneel before Max" hold.

Diana and all the JLA are trying to figure out why Superman is acting so whacko. Max is providing the answer.
As you yourself mentioned, Superman is relatively calm (at least as far as mind-controlled paranoics go) and is not actively hurting Diana. It's common convention for a hero to figure out what's going on before acting. Why wouldn't Diana?

2. The "flight to sun" choke hold.

I don't if you've ever been in a fight or not. Don't know what you practice. I know I myself have been in more than one scrap. I know from experience that if you grab a guy by the throat, he generally forgets anything else he's doing and responds to your hand. I further know that if you simply march forward you can control his head and body and steer him where you want to go. I've DONE it. With a barrel-chested young man who was fighting me with some of his friends. It's amazing how perception of time and what you notice changes in a moment like that.

Your MMA and Krav Maga lessons aren't convincing.
If you were to show me that GREG RUCKA modelled the fight on MMA or Krav Maga, you might have something.
But the events in Sacrifice are happening VERY fast and with great violence. If the time readout of Max Lord is to be believed, the ENTIRETY of the fight takes place in less than 2 minutes. Diana the skilled warrior who should be able to handle anything? THAT depiction becomes common when Gail Simone takes over. Gail Simone thinks Diana would waste Superman in a fight. Rucka's Diana wasn't quite on that level of skill.
Again, sudden, very fast, very violently, to a very bewildered opponent who also had depressurization, extreme cold, and airlessness to deal with? No, I think only someone with a GREAT strength advantage over her opponent could react to all that with commanding composure.

Originally posted by Delta1938
you keep ignoring the fact that his state of mind was a serious, serious handicap that would have him fight less effectively against Wonder Woman had he not been in his situation(irrational and illusion-induced). If you really think that Diana could have killed him any time after the ear attack were Superman in a proper state of mind, or that she could've actually done that in the first place if he weren't thinking he fought Doomsday, then answer me this. If you were to drop some acid, wait for the hallucinations to start, then got into a fight and you didn't know who you were fighting, do you think that would end well for you? If you're honest, you'll answer "no, it would not end well." That's pretty much what the case was for Superman. Were he not in his situation, he could've and most likely would've easily dodged that tiara throw.

This is also unconvincing.

Serious handicap? Yes.
Were I on acid would a fight turn out well for me?
Probably not. Strange scenario to construct, by the way.
Did you come up with it from experience?

As for the tiara, as I mentioned before,
IF Diana were playing for keeps, IF she thought she had no choice other than to take Superman out?
Then she uses the tiara in PLACE of the earclap.

Don't fool yourself, Delta.
You don't have an answer for that.

Tiara REPLACES earclap and Superman is gone.

But killing Superman is the very LAST thing Diana wants to do. Rucka tells us as much. Diana in Sacrifice ALSO tells us as much. She realizes where the problem is, and it's NOT actually with Superman.

--BUT--

For the sake of argument. Let's say that Diana had NOT snuck up right behind Superman where she could deliver a killing strike to him IF that had been her goal.

You asked me what Doomsday would do to replicate a thrown Tiara? Look to what Salsa scans actually picture Superman SEEING in the followup to Sacrifice -- getting hit by a punch delivered from a superspeed rush.

The simple fact is, Delta, Superman is NOT all that good at dodging. Want to say he is? Fine. But you need to balance that with the times he gets caught. And you're NOT going to find many DC authors supporting you. I KNOW Dwayne McDuffie would not have, who cited Diana as having faster reflexes than Clark and Batman agreeing.
I'm not so sure the author of the creative team who produced the following would agree with you either ...

Konvickt KO. Superman demonstrates reaction and dodging skill?

Scan 2 of 3.