Konvikt KO. Scan 3 of 3.
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Story Title: "Kplow!"
Source: Trinity #3, Volume 1
Writer: Kurt Busiek
Penciller: Mark Bagley
Date: June 2008
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Trinity_Vol_1_3
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's actually been doing that for the past month, P.R.You've been missing in action.
This thread had less than 5,000 views, even though it had been around for 2 years or more, before I came.
That was ... what? 7 weeks ago? 8?
It's up well over 10,000 now.
Not what i was talking about, but okay.
--
Also:
1. Dwayne McDuffie in most of his JLA run nerfed Superman by his own admission.
2. Superman let Konvikt punch him. He wasn't trying to dodge him at the time.
3. That's written by Busiek, a man who, coincidentally, wrote one of the most powerful incarnations of Superman in the last decade.
Superman's power doesn't have to be downplayed to any extent to give Wonder Woman HER due, P.R.
Recall that Busiek is the same writer who featured Diana taking an indeterminate amount of PreCRISIS Superman's grappling strength many years prior.
(You can examine that scene below.)
Kurt's actually proven fairly egalitarian in his treatment of his characters in most of the stories I've seen.
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Source: Justice League of America #232, Volume 1
Writer: Kurt Busiek
Penciller: Alan Kupperberg
Date: November 1984
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Justice_League_of_America_Vol_1_232
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
All well and good, but, what I am supposed to take from that?If it's that Superman's hands are tougher than Diana's, fair enough, but I said that much already.
If it's that you believe that thing was incredibly heavy, fair enough, but the panel says he got it before it fully released.
If you believe that thing STILL fully released, and became incredibly heavy, fair enough, but they are on the moon, so this miniature black hole, which may or may not have been fully released, is only 1/6th the weight of what it would be on Earth.
Incidentally, combatting the force of singularity seems something Wonder Woman was more equipped than Superman was to do on at least one occasion:
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Source: Green Lantern. Circle of Fire.
Writer: Brian K. Vaughan
Penciller: Norm Breyfogle
Date: October 2000
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Green_Lantern:_Circle_of_Fire_Vol_1_1
Here's the problem. The argument that Superman grabbed it before the magnetic field dropped means absolutely nothing in regards to keeping it's weight. If his hands around it meant that the field stayed in tact, then nothing would've changed. he was holding it's entire weight. And the field is what was keeping it from effect anything unless the AI manipulated the gravity. So, that's an argument that needs to be thrown-out.
And if I'm not mistaken, the black hole would essentially have threatened the Solar System. So, let's compare it to our own Earth's Sun. Do you know what would happen if our Sun's mass were somehow collapsed into a black hole(our star isn't large enough to be one)? I do. Absolutely nothing. Well, in regards to gravity. We'd all die from freezing to death and no light and all that, but Earth wouldn't be moved.
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970612a.html
So, that would mean that, if I'm correct about the threat this black hole was, that it'd have to be larger than our Sun for it to really effect other planets beyond Earth. And do you know how big our Sun is? The rest of our Solar System, all the planets and moons and asteroids, only accounts for about 1% of it's mass, and the Sun the other 99%. This basically invalidates your argument that Wonder Woman could have done the same thing because she moved Earth. Even if she moved the mass of Jupiter on her own, this doesn't mean she could have held the black hole. It'd be like arguing because someone bench-pressed a car that they could lift the entire North American continent. So, no, moving Earth even if she did it on her own doesn't mean she could replicate Superman's feat. And in fact, if anything, being on the Moon would make it more impressive, because a celestial body's gravity is actually effecting the mass. Or I could say that Wonder Woman helping to move Earth is meaningless, because it was in space. Superman's excuse is he was kinda weakened and all that from being a skeleton underground for 3,000 years(like Abhi pointed-out), why he needed time to absorb sunlight. Unless you can provide a scan showing that Kryptonian skeletal remains can absorb and process sunlight? Otherwise this completely obliterates your point that Diana was ready to go, but Superman needed to charge.
As for Diana being better equipped to deal with black holes, nope. Your scan is the best of only two examples I've seen of Diana dealing with a black hole. The other time she did fairly poorly.
Here, she struggles to hold onto her lasso to keep from being pulled further into the black hole.
WONDER WOMAN #77
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Captain%20Nazi%20exposure/Black%20Hole/
And if you'll notice, it's gravitational force isn't strong enough to rip-out that sign post she uses as an anchor. She simply outlasts it, barely.
Superman, on the other hand, escaped the pull from similar, and likely superior, black holes in his "YEAR ONE" continuity.
ACTION COMICS ANNUAL #7(I think)
Or here after his first official power-up, where he goes through a wormhole(two connected black holes).
ACTION COMICS #696/SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF STEEL #31
Or this "double black hole" he's in.
So, yeah, Superman's the better equipped one.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Diana is vulnerable to heat beyond a certain temperature.
Quite true. Major point of Sacrifice, incidentally.But also not reflective of her physical strength.
Illustrates how inconsistent comics are though -- the temperature in space is close to zero, too. Yet Diana seldom has problems performing there.
Sorta true. If you get to the darkest place in space possible, then yes, the temperature is close to absolute zero.
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/980301b.html
But that's only in the very darkest area of space, and it's still several degrees warmer than absolute zero. And the temperature she's exposed to is greater than absolute zero. So unless you can provide an example that she was in the very darkest part of space and was fine, this isn't an inconsistency.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I suspect he would have to have power-ups over the course of 25 years, but, what makes a power-up "official" as opposed to "unofficial" by your system? How were people notified of any changes?As for kryptonite, I have little reason to believe even now a small ring chunk of it won't stop Superman. Then again, I don't what time period you're thinking of. One of the more recent ones I know of, for instance, was Fall of 2007 ...
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Source: Teen Titans #50, Volume 3
Writers: Sean McKeever, Geoff Johns, Marv Wolfman, & Todd Dezago
Pencillers: Randy Green, Mike McKone, George Perez, & Todd Nauck
Date: October 2007
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Teen_Titans_Vol_3_50
(TO BE CONTINUED)
The actual STORYLINE established that Superman had overt power-ups. Out of the at least two official examples, one was the filtered Kryptonite(called "Kryptonite X" I think) that repowered Superman and boosted his powers when he returned from the dead. In SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF STEEL #30 we see several references showing he's become more powerful, mostly from himself, but Lobo also made a statement about it.
Here's the entire instance.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Lobo/MOS%2030/
If you just want to skip directly to the stuff referencing him being more powerful, I'll help.
LOBO: "That haymaker had more KICK to it than I remember! You been WORKIN' OUT, right?"
"And my KNUCKLES don't even sting! My powers ARE increasing!"
"Can't BREATHE. But somehow...I'm FINE! Somehow...can it be POSSIBLE? It...it must BE! I'm stronger now...and a single BREATH must have so completely OXYGENATED my blood...that I simply don't need to BREATHE anymore!"
Granted, this next one's a little more subtle, but considering that after saying not only does he not need to breathe, he can with effort fly through the disintegration ray definitely implies this is another thing showing him he got more powerful.
"Not only don't I need to BREATHE now...with a little effort I can fly THROUGH the disintegration ray. And whip back some rays of my own!"
"Whoa! That ship is the SIZE of a small MOON. I should have barely been able to break the INERTIA to push it away...much less THROW it! And it's no problem CATCHING UP to it either!"
Does Wonder Woman have any storylines where she's gotten an explicit power-up, meaning the story actually makes her permanently more powerful via outside circumstances, and we have things to show she's gotten more powerful? I remember when I first asked you this, you said "No." In fact, you didn't even know what an actual official power-up was, compared to the character just doing bigger feats over time. I explained to you then, forget? Also, you had no actual storyline officially powering Superman down. Merely posted that Callisto(or whatever the name was) example claimed it proved Superman was powered down, and couldn't actually show anything for Wonder Woman showing she'd gotten stronger. And to make it worse, Abhi had stated there were extenuating circumstances you left-out for why Superman and the other Kryptonians struggled. Even if this isn't the case, it shows a gross lack of comprehension on your part about writers just portraying characters differently, or even a little thing called "Dramatic Tension." For example, Wonder Woman allegedly had an official power-up by Byrne during his run. And after the power-up, she struggles to hold-up a bridge. Yet, before the power-up, under Perez, she knocked a giant a few dozen miles away. I find knocking a giant the distance she did more impressive than supporting a collapsing bridge. But she struggled to support that bridge. So, she was less powerful after a power-up?
The other official power-up is the Mongul Junior training. Superman's mind specifically dampened his powers, Mongul trained him to overcome that. Looking through the albums of him fighting Imperiex Probes actually shows some of the examples.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Imperiex%20Probes/
In regards to Kryptonite, it shows how little you know.
We've got this from INFINITE CRISIS, where he's surrounded by literally a planet's worth of Kryptonite(since Krypton was over a dozen times the size of Earth), but it doesn't show him shrugging off a punch from Superboy Prime(who was unaffected by the Kryptonite, and since he still had his armor, hadn't been effected by the red sun either) and then going through the red sun and landing on a planet littered with Kryptonite.
You think that little pebble Diana had should have stopped him in his tracks. Should've told that to him when he fought Conduit.
I can't find the scans, but Conduit's intensity of his Kryptonite blasts are immense. First off, normal exposure to Kryptonite is essentially harmless to humans. Luthor required years of wearing his Kryptonite ring before he developed cancer from it. Yet, Conduit is able to VAPORIZE normal humans with his blasts. Without the amplification of his gauntlets. He even killed guys in radiation hazard suits without them. Yet, Superman's still alive......
We also have this.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Kryptonite%20Man-Batman/
Batman's actually emitting Kryptonite here. And his strength and healing(probably durability too) are enhanced to an unspecified degree. But due to it being Major Force who's providing the enhancement, it's probably incredibly significant. And Superman's reluctant to fight him due to not knowing if he'll harm Batman. And this is just a few examples. There's numerous more. Like where he still schooled what practically looked like a city full of villains after exposure. Or when he tore-apart a modified Kryptonian battlesuit that had Kryptonite added into it's alloy or on it, and was also using red solar radiation blasts. Or a bunch of other examples. Basically, for you to have little reason to believe that ring wouldn't have stopped Superman dead in his tracks just shows your ignorance of Superman, not that you're right. And considering you said that Superman not being stopped dead in his tracks proves he was amped, that actually hurts your argument. You can't really use this argument that he was amped if you think a little ring like that would stop him dead in his tracks when someone who's able to concentrate it to the point of vaporizing people could hurt, but not even incapacitate(let alone kill) Superman.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Little hasty, eh?Typical.
You DO know I was joking, right? Why exactly would I be hasty because I threw mad faces when I accused you of changing it via voodoo?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You're actually illustrating one of the reasons I'm debating here.Nevertheless, let me clear up your confusion.
"40" and "stronger than normal" WERE seen by you.
They are part of the tag used in one of my personal desktop folders to name the scan.
The tag appears only to unregistered "guests", however.
When you actually LOG IN as "Delta1938" you no longer see the attachment as a link, because you see it instead as an image.The word "times" does not appear anywhere as part of the tag of that scan, however.
You simply read too fast and ASSUMED, wrongly, that I intended that to say what you claimed earlier.
In point of fact, when organizing scans in a folder for KMC, I often number my selections and count by tens. If I have four scans to upload, the first one will be "10", the second one will be "20", the third one will be "30", the fourth one will be "40", and so on.
Incidentally, the primary reasons for my editing scans are not to "manipulate" or "fool" or "hoodwink" or whatever perjorative term you want to use.
It's first and foremost because KMC has a 250 KB size limit that attachments must adhere to, and in actuality it's more like 235. If I'm going to have something big enough to actually show people, I CAN'T show a full page and expect the text to be big enough for people to read.
As for verification, that's NEVER the problem you would make it out to be. Posting the side OPPOSING Superman in a thread in a Superman forum? You think ANYthing remotely controversial that I post is going to go unchallenged?
Hasn't happened so far, I'll tell you...
Finally, not only do I TELL people when I am making a change, but I give them links and reference info so they investigate on their own.
The problem is most people don't actually READ what other participants post, just assume they know and proceed from there.
Nope, I didn't read it too fast. You put the file name as, "40 stronger than normal." It's pretty easy to come to the conclusion it was claimed as 40 times stronger, considering making it things like "10" or "30" instead of 1 or 3 is rather unusual. Still doesn't change that you're assuming he was amped, made a claim that they found him stronger, when they never said that and you never had an answer to the Orion comparison, after your original justifications were proven wrong.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Superman's bigger. In Sacrifice, he's sunamped, unpredictable, and swinging wildly.You like MMA style comparisons; I happen to know of a fighter who was just like that in competition.
Bring YOUR honesty this time, look at the following, especially around the 2:22 mark, and tell me where this comparison fails as a "Sacrifice" analog, if at all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtwGH7mi0K8&feature=related
(Sapp v. Kimo)
Not only does this dance around my question, but you can't even get it right. If you're going to attempt to use my analogies against me, at least get it right. This is not an MMA fight. It's a kickboxing match. Yes, K-1 has done MMA events(as well as co-promoted MMA events with various other promotions), but this is not an MMA fight. Look at the gloves. Not very good for grappling, you think? And see how about 1 min 30 sec that the ref breaks them up when Kimo's got a clinch? Yeah, K-1 kickboxing doesn't allow grappling. They don't even allow clinch fighting like Muay Thai and MMA does, you can only momentarily clinch to throw one immediate knee strike then you have to let go. The dude who uploaded the video didn't seem to know what he was talking about with the UFC thing. The only thing the UFC has to do with this at all is Kimo had fought there a few times. And for further proof that this was a kickboxing match, not an MMA fight?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Sapp#Kickboxing_record
Scroll down a little, you'll see it was Bob's 6th fight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimo_Leopoldo#Mixed_martial_arts_record
See there? Do you see "Bob Sapp" at all under MMA record? Nope, but you see him here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimo_Leopoldo#Kickboxing_record
The K-1 World Grand Prix were never MMA events(nor do I believe the GPs were ever co-promoted with MMA promotions), but essentially a tournament for Heavyweights. So, please, next time you try to disprove me with my analogies, make sure you're correct to begin with. Like when I brought-up the Brock Lesnar/Frank Mir analogy, and you thought Mir was stronger than Lesnar because you don't know how joint locks work.
Now, for the actual argument you made at hand, this is still dancing around my question.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Bring YOUR honesty this time, look at the following, especially around the 2:22 mark, and tell me where this comparison fails as a "Sacrifice" analog, if at all:
I'll tell you where this comparison fails as a SACRIFICE analog. From 0:00 all the way through Bob's KO. Unless you can prove me wrong that Bob was under the influence of LSD at the time? If this fight had happened in Japan, then it'd be unlikely but you couldn't say "There's no ABSOLUTE PROOF that he wasn't." Since Japan apparently is pretty lenient on both pre and post fight drug testing. Too bad this fight took place in Las Vegas. And each State Athletic Commission in the U.S. is much, much more strict about drug testing than Japan is. Check the second paragraph here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Sapp#K-1
I see no mention of a failed drug test. Nor do I see any note on the side of his kickboxing record indicating he failed a drug test. But Nick Diaz, on the other hand, had been fined, suspended and had his submission win over Takanormi Gomi when he tested positive for weed, so that shows that the LVSAC does do post-fight drug testing, and they'll severely punish you for a drug that actually hinders your performance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Diaz#Pride_FC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Diaz#Mixed_martial_arts_record
So, unless you can find a video of Bob Sapp watching the video of his fight and going, "What the Hell? I was swinging at a purple dragon 10 feet away from Kimo when I KOed him!!" then yes, your video fails, and fails hard, at being an analog for SACRIFICE. I'll help ya on that.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Was+Bob+Sapp+on+LSD+in+his+fight+with+Kimo+Leopoldo%3F
Doesn't look like it.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Let's address a few things a bit more seriously.One, logic doesn't just cut one way.
If your theory that Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman were valid, and certainly as much stronger as you claim, you should see evidence of it, it would be consistent across the board, and there shouldn't be huge anomalies.
We've SHOWN evidence. Numerous examples, both posted and cited. You have yet to provide any type of explanation for this.
Or this.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=WonderWomanv221905.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=WonderWomanv221906.jpg
He certainly is not Sun-Amped in those examples.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It wouldn't rely on ignoring basic facts about the characters themselves and how their powers work.
But you don't actually know how Superman's powers work. He has a dynamic factor to them like Hulk. That's why Mongul Junior trained him, to overcome the limitations his own mind puts on his powers. There's numerous examples of it. One comic had intelligence gathered on Superman for Luthor show that his stress levels effect his processing of solar energy. When he had amnesia during the Byrne era, he lost his powers simply because he lost his memory, and started gaining them back because Darkseid convinced Superman he had them. After INFINITE CRISIS, they looked at why Superman took so long for his powers to return. IIRC, an examination had Doctor Midnight state that Superman was still absorbing solar energy, but he couldn't figure-out why Superman was still powerless. And he figured he was powerless because he subconsciously wanted a normal life. Then there's this.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Misc/?action=view¤t=06.jpg
(TO BE CONTINUED)
Batman flat-out states Superman regulates his powers on a subconscious level. And there's other examples that I haven't mentioned, on top of this and the above ones. Why do you think that they made it initially appear that Kara was stronger than Kal when she came to Earth? Superman actually stated that he grew-up having to keep his powers in check, but she essentially suddenly had them(compared to his years of development) and that he could take her down any time he wanted. That was in the very storyline you cite as proof that she's stronger than him. The same author is also the one who had Kara require the help of Karen and 2 or 3 other alternate versions of Supergirl to pull Superman from The Source Wall, but when Superman pulled Darkseid from it, he needed no help. Doesn't make much sense that a 16 year old girl would be stronger than a much larger, full-grown man in his prime, does it? Unless one's a gender traitor or some whacked-out delusional femnazi.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It wouldn't rely on conflating things like heat vision or invulnerability with strength and pretending they're equal.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Are you trying to say I think he's stronger because he's overall more powerful? If that's the case, no. I KNOW he's stronger on TOP of being overall more powerful because I've seen the evidence. You haven't actually provided any. That's the difference.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
For instance, you mention that Superman had a stellar performance against Imperiex Probes here.All well and good, but, what you fail to mention is that the price of destroying any particular probe was to have one BLOW UP IN YOUR FACE. This is precisely what happened in the case of Wonder Woman, who does NOT have Superman-level durability, as I've stated repeatedly throughout this thread. That explosion nearly took her out. I could tell as much from the one part of the OWAW story I DO own, Wonder Woman v2 #174 or 175, where they use the purple ray and everything else they can to bring Diana back.
Your own Photobucket album confirmed what I thought was the case. In fact, it shows not only Diana being nearly taken out, but much of the rest of the JLA being knocked out by the explosion. Later on, Diana's own mother takes out a 2nd probe. And pays the ultimate price. It blows up in her face and Hippolyta is GONE, and the only thing saving Diana from the explosion was distance and the protective field of her bracers.
Looking at that, someone saying "Superman can take Imperiex Probes apart and no one else could scratch one!"
... is absolutely absurd.
What FOOL would try to take a hammer to a bomb as his or her means of disposing of it? (And no, Wolverine doesn't count; he PROVES the point.)
I understand where you're going. Problem with that argument is the fact that Diana was completely oblivious to what happened when the Probes were cracked at the time. In fact, Superman had been the ONLY one who had ever defeated one at this point. In fact, his defeat of one in SUPERMAN(Volume Two) #153(or about that; it hinted at but took place well before OUR WORLDS AT WAR) is the entire reason Imperiex Prime had such an interest in Earth, at least initially. He was rather curious about someone who had not only resisted him, but actually succeeded. But, yeah, using the price that's paid is pretty irrelevant since Wonder Woman didn't know what would happen, and entire teams had failed to do much of anything to the Imperiex Probes as the norm.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Even here there are several more things wrong with the showing. For starters, presuming you wanted me to see Superman taking the arm of an Imperiex probe off as a show of strength, you conveniently ignore that Aquaman breaks its severed hand open, proving that Superman is NOT the only one with strength enough to crack or break an imperiex shell, and, perhaps you did not notice yourself, but, Superman mentions that he [B]cauterized the unit.[/B]
😕 .....what are you talking about? Where did Aquaman break the hand? Are you talking about getting out of it's grip? I don't see anything indicating he actually broke the hand to get out. Nor do I see how he got out. But if the arm was severed from the rest of the Imperiex Probe, it wouldn't have the energy animating it. So it'd basically be like forcing-open the hand of a powerless robot. Don't see why Aquaman couldn't do that. As for the scan of Superman taking the arm off, never said it was a strength feat. I had previously compiled most, if not all of the fights he had with Imperiex Probes and uploaded them. So I merely just gave you the link to them all. Partly because it was quicker and easier, partly because you gave the impression you believed Superman was Sun-Amped the entire duration of OUR WORLDS AT WAR, or close to it. He was not.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I don't know if you know what that word means, it basically translates into cutting and sealing with heat.
Yep, I do. Irrelevant since I never argued that it was a strength feat. But it does show how Wonder Woman dealt with them, strength-wise. Which I'll get to later.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
So Superman used his heat visions on that thing, in whole or in part to remove that arm, and Aquaman cracked the hand.
Was the one with Aquaman and Wonder Woman the only album you looked at? 'Cuz there's a point where Superman literally bursts through an Imperiex Probe, meaning used strength. And not even a combination of powers, no heating/cooling to weaken it before punching it. Also, still wondering where you get Aquaman cracked it's hand. Unless you're referring to merely forcing the inanimate hand open, then yeah, I can see Orin doing that. But actually cracking the metal(or whatever it was made-up of)? Nope, not under his own strength.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If he HAD tried to take the arm off himself, it would have meant his life, and Superman told him as much.In other words, from what you describe of OWAW, Superman is revered because he can take out some explosives that his friends DARE not detonate for fear of said explosives (the Imperiex clones) blowing up in their face and killing them, as it DOES to one of them (Hippolyta) and nearly does to a second (Diana).
Hardly a case for consideration, Delta.
You're correct the explosion would've killed Aquaman, and nearly killed Diana. Huge, huge problem with this though, is the fact that they didn't know it. Diana and Orin had been trying their damnedest to stop the Imperiex Probe before finding-out merely cracking one makes them go KABLOOEY. In fact, this was before Superman got involved. There's 3 pages between these two and what you saw Superman do, but it's just talking to Batman then Superman going to help the rest of the JLA, and doesn't show any more of THESE two(with one POSSIBLE exception of seeing the Probe it's self) fighting with the Imperiex Probe.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg06.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg07.jpg
So, Diana's swinging her ax at it while Arthur is punching it, probably as hard as he can, 'cuz they're really trying to take this thing down(this seems to be the same Probe that completely incapacitated J'Onn off-panel, and is more than Kyle and Wally can handle), and don't even scratch it. While we see no crack, there's no KABLOOEY!! that would accompany a crack in the Imperiex Probe.
So, at one point you decided to include going back to 2001 for examples for the argument over who's stronger. Diana with an enchanted ax AND Aquaman's help is completely ineffective of even cracking the Imperiex Probe's armor, and is only able to crack it by using the edge of the shield in the chink in it's armor. Yet, Superman got to a point where he was one-shotting them.
And, again, you can't use the price paid when one was cracked, as Diana didn't know that when she was DESPERATELY trying to stop it. You think if she knew that, unless she was in her mom's situation, that she'd use an ax to attack one? Yeah, this example holds water as a showing of Superman being significantly stronger than Wonder Woman.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As for Sacrifice.1. Salsa's "kneel before Max" hold.
Diana and all the JLA are trying to figure out why Superman is acting so whacko. Max is providing the answer.
As you yourself mentioned, Superman is relatively calm (at least as far as mind-controlled paranoics go) and is not actively hurting Diana. It's common convention for a hero to figure out what's going on before acting. Why wouldn't Diana?
Not convinced, but a better way to brush-off evidence then the next.....
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
2. The "flight to sun" choke hold.I don't if you've ever been in a fight or not.
Yep!! Second fight I was ever in, I was jumped by about a half-dozen guys. I grew-up in a bad neighborhood.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Don't know what you practice.
Kenpo Karate, Sanda(a style of Kung Fu, basically Chinese kickboxing, similar to Muay Thai but also allows takedowns, throws and sweeps), some Muay Thai, Judo, and have trained Krav Maga techniques with some friends in it. Now you know I've got a fairly well-rounded background, and knowing is half the battle!! YOOOOO JOE!! (OK, I'm sleep deprived)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I know I myself have been in more than one scrap. I know from experience that if you grab a guy by the throat, he generally forgets anything else he's doing and responds to your hand. I further know that if you simply march forward you can control his head and body and steer him where you want to go. I've DONE it. With a barrel-chested young man who was fighting me with some of his friends. It's amazing how perception of time and what you notice changes in a moment like that.Your MMA and Krav Maga lessons aren't convincing.
If you were to show me that GREG RUCKA modelled the fight on MMA or Krav Maga, you might have something.
But the events in Sacrifice are happening VERY fast and with great violence. If the time readout of Max Lord is to be believed, the ENTIRETY of the fight takes place in less than 2 minutes. Diana the skilled warrior who should be able to handle anything? THAT depiction becomes common when Gail Simone takes over. Gail Simone thinks Diana would waste Superman in a fight. Rucka's Diana wasn't quite on that level of skill.
Again, sudden, very fast, very violently, to a very bewildered opponent who also had depressurization, extreme cold, and airlessness to deal with? No, I think only someone with a GREAT strength advantage over her opponent could react to all that with commanding composure.
Too bad that she's attempting essentially the exact same choke defense technique in Krav Maga, and failing. Even if Rucka didn't portray her skill on the same level as Simone, you'd have to say she's far less skilled than a modern soldier trained in a reality-based self-defense Martial Art if she couldn't pull such a relatively basic technique. Are you going to say that Amazons are inferior to Israelis(although the root of Krav Maga came elsewhere, it was developed in Israel)? I guess the Amazons should be glad that AMAZONS ATTACK was on the U.S., not Israel, or they would've been owned. Technologically AND skillfully inferior.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This is also unconvincing.Serious handicap? Yes.
Were I on acid would a fight turn out well for me?
Probably not. Strange scenario to construct, by the way.
Did you come up with it from experience?
I came up with it, because Superman wasn't really seeing what was going on. It was equivalent to hallucinating, and not knowing who you were fighting. Let me put it this way. You posted that video of Bob Sapp VS Kimo. I'll repost it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtwGH7mi0K8
Would you fight that guy the same way you would fight this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyhsDZna6AE
You would fight Anderson Silva, who's smaller, faster and more technical(a brilliant and amazing technical striker), exactly the same way as a much larger, slower, less refined and more powerful man who wouldn't be able to come-up with much more strategy than "Face-Punch Face-Punch Face-Punch?" Oh yeah and on top of being a better, more versatile striker, Silva also has a much better ground game than Sapp, a bag of submissions since he has black belts in both Judo AND Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu(which, by the way, generally takes far longer to progress in than Judo). You following this? Well, I'll explain a bit more later.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As for the tiara, as I mentioned before,
IF Diana were playing for keeps, IF she thought she had no choice other than to take Superman out?
Then she uses the tiara in PLACE of the earclap.Don't fool yourself, Delta.
You don't have an answer for that.Tiara REPLACES earclap and Superman is gone.
But killing Superman is the very LAST thing Diana wants to do. Rucka tells us as much. Diana in Sacrifice ALSO tells us as much. She realizes where the problem is, and it's NOT actually with Superman.
--BUT--
For the sake of argument. Let's say that Diana had NOT snuck up right behind Superman where she could deliver a killing strike to him IF that had been her goal.
You asked me what Doomsday would do to replicate a thrown Tiara? Look to what Salsa scans actually picture Superman SEEING in the followup to Sacrifice -- getting hit by a punch delivered from a superspeed rush.
The simple fact is, Delta, Superman is NOT all that good at dodging. Want to say he is? Fine. But you need to balance that with the times he gets caught. And you're NOT going to find many DC authors supporting you. I KNOW Dwayne McDuffie would not have, who cited Diana as having faster reflexes than Clark and Batman agreeing.
I'm not so sure the author of the creative team who produced the following would agree with you either ...
He didn't know he was facing Diana. He wasn't expecting tactics, strategy or stealth. He was expecting a rampaging, unintelligent monster. That's a huge, huge disadvantage. Not to mention the fact that your argument is ridiculous that if she was "playing for keeps" that it wouldn't have made a difference if he KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON. You bring-up Superman not dodging stuff. Well, first-off the Konvict example wasn't even a KO. Superman was stunned, but he recovers on his own moments later in the next issue.
TRINITY #3
TRINITY #4
Down for just a few moments. And he does have a tendency to stand there and take the attacks from unknown enemies to gauge them, so this is NOT a good argument. But an enchanted edge weapon like the tiara? Why exactly would he not have dodged something he knows can most likely cut him if he actually knew it was coming? So thus, your argument fails, and fails hard.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Not what i was talking about, but okay.
Then what were ya talkin' about Pr?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Superman's power doesn't have to be downplayed to any extent to give Wonder Woman HER due, P.R.Recall that Busiek is the same writer who featured Diana taking an indeterminate amount of PreCRISIS Superman's grappling strength many years prior.
(You can examine that scene below.)
Kurt's actually proven fairly egalitarian in his treatment of his characters in most of the stories I've seen.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Justice League of America #232, Volume 1
Writer: Kurt Busiek
Penciller: Alan Kupperberg
Date: November 1984
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Justice_League_of_America_Vol_1_232
Are you trying to say this is an example of Wonder Woman being at least as strong as Superman? If you are, it clearly states that the whole resisting thing is having a serious effect. So yeah, Wonder Woman's able to match a handicapped Superman and look equal. Looks like she took a downturn in the Modern Age from looking equal against a handicapped Superman to looking inferior against a handicapped Superman.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Superman's power doesn't have to be downplayed to any extent to give Wonder Woman HER due, P.R.Recall that Busiek is the same writer who featured Diana taking an indeterminate amount of PreCRISIS Superman's grappling strength many years prior.
(You can examine that scene below.)
Kurt's actually proven fairly egalitarian in his treatment of his characters in most of the stories I've seen.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Justice League of America #232, Volume 1
Writer: Kurt Busiek
Penciller: Alan Kupperberg
Date: November 1984
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Justice_League_of_America_Vol_1_232
Except that I'm talking about McDuffie's handling of Superman. He made it a point to make Superman look less impressive so he could give other members of the League, namely Diana, more spotlight.
Are you suggesting Busiek did the same by allowing Konvikt to knock out a Superman who basically asked to be punched?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In terms of mental clarity, I do not significantly dispute you.Short of Our Worlds at War, however, please show me a time, post-Crisis, where Superman was ever physically stronger than the lunatic Diana fights in Wonder Woman 219 -- or ever had reason to be.
Oh, have you been ignoring what Abhi posted?
I know you don't like it, but by Diana's own admission, Power Girl is AT LEAST as strong as WW. But even if you think WW's stronger, do you honestly think she's stronger than Power Girl(who you apparently think is stronger than Superman), Martian Manhunter(who you also believe is stronger than Superman, last I checked), Kilowog, and a few others PLUS a bunch of Blackrock-enhanced humans? While we don't really know how enhanced they are, we did see Batman boosted to be strong enough to draw blood from Superman and fight him. Do you think Wonder Woman is even close to all of them combined?
Or how about this? You think Power Girl and Supergirl are both stronger than Superman. And I know you think Wonder Woman is stronger than them individually(despite evidence is at least Power Girl is AT LEAST equal to Wonder Woman in strength), but do you think she's stronger than them combined? What about them combined plus Linda Danvers, Cir-El and a Silver Age(at least in style and personality; not necessarily power level) Kara? 'Cuz Superman accomplished a similar task that took their combined efforts.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman24-01.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman24-0203.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman25-0203.jpg
So, unless you can make an argument supported by hard evidence, and not wishful thinking, that Wonder Woman is stronger than those two groups, you don't really have a case here.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If I still have them on my hard drive, I'll post some images of the Darkseid fight you're talking about. It's a VERY relevant parallel to Sacrifice, justs as Man of Tomorrow 13 is.
Not really. I already debunked your argument for MOT #13 by comparing the fight with Orion there to the fight under Byrne and showed if he were truly amped, Orion would've been violated. SACRIFICE is pretty irrelevant considering he showed to be significantly stronger than her before any Sun-Amping was in the picture(no pun intended). And for the fight with Darkseid himself, you have a flawed memory of it. I'm not sure if I have all the scans of the actual FIGHT(after Darkseid knocks an unprepared Superman back and "kills" Kara), but I do recall you tried to make it look like Superman looked worse than Wonder Woman against Darkseid by pointing-out how far away he got knocked. Yet I pointed-out the flaw in this argument. When Darkseid knocked Superman away, Superman was completely unprepared. When Darkseid knocked away Wonder Woman, it was not only with a backhanded slap, but she WAS prepared for him, meaning it was much more embarrassing for her. Here's how Superman was doing when he was actually fighting before the Omega Beams were ever directed at Superman.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman13-0203.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman13-04.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman13-06.jpg
So yeah, Superman hurts Darkseid twice actually. And when Darkseid knocks Superman back again, but this time Superman's prepared, it's not very far compared to what you were trying to argue. Compare THAT to when Wonder Woman fought Darkseid during the ROCK OF AGES storyline(granted sorta alternate future, but worth mentioning).
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=JLA_014_pg12.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=JLA_014_pg13.jpg
Further back than when Superman was prepared, and by a casual backhanded slap. So, in conclusion, Superman was holding his own against Darkseid before he took him to the Sun.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If you want to go that route, though, in the original story arc by Loeb, Supergirl is enough of a threat that Superman HIMSELF uses Kryptonite against her. In the movie those scenes are absent.
So, you claim that Superman will be stopped in his tracks by a little pebble of Kryptonite when it suits you, but then use him doing something exposing him to Kryptonite against him when it suits you? Fail here. And what does this prove? That he wanted to take her out faster because he didn't truly want to fight her? That's about it. Look above to the comparison of him pulling Darkseid from The Source Wall unaided, but Kara needs help from Power Girl(who you also seem to think is stronger than him) and others to accomplish a similar task. It never seemed to occur to you that it was just a little odd that a 16 year old girl is stronger than a full grown man in his prime without extenuating circumstances? She only SEEMED to be stronger 'cuz she wasn't holding back like he was, as a previous post I gave proves his holding back actually regulates his powers.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Quite true, but they've also been very influential, and they generally enjoy far wider viewership. I imagine that will become ever more the case, given that DC was acquired by Warner Bros a few years ago.
Already the influences of other media can be seen in the comics that are Warner Bros traditional forte. For example villains from the cartoons, like Harley Quinn and Livewire have been co-opted, Harley becoming such a staple that she had her own comic for awhile. Relatively recent artists depictions have Superman alternately looking like Christoper Reeves and Tom Welling. In the DCNu, the characters all seem to have been de-aged from late 30s/early 40s to perhaps mid-20s, reflecting the ages of the casts chosen to play Superman and other JLA characters appearing in the recent Superman movies and Smallville.P.R., the movies don't NEED to be an accurate representation of the comics when they start determining what we see in the comics.
For more and more they become one.
Notice, however, that much of this, perhaps most of this, has taken place in the last 10 years -- just AFTER the period of your "Our Worlds at War" series.
So, when it comes down to it, it sure seems like a major factor in your conclusion that Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman is because some other media MAY cause this change 'cuz they portray it in the animated movies? In other words, you're basing what you claim is the case NOW on what MIGHT happen. By the way, I'd think the reason they made the characters younger Post-DCnU would be because they essentially rebooted the universe, not so much of influence of the age of the movie and TV show actors.
I don't see where the reasoning for "it's his niche" is coming from.
Unlike, say, Marvel Comics Hulk, there is nothing I can see in Superman's actual story that says "strongest there is". Saves the day, nick of time, one to count on, doing what can't be done by others for the sake of others? Certainly. But that's also what other heroes about.
Note too, that many of the heroes surpass him in skills and power. Batman is a better tactician, shrewder, more resourceful, and, though they emphasize it less these days, generally, a better detective.
Flash is FASTER than Superman, not merely equal to him in Speed.
More and more you see Jonn Jonnz making claim to being Supes' equal in power, EDITOR Matt Idleson himself says Supergirl is now stronger; Captain Marvel has been credited with knockdown, knockout/rumbling advantage in toe-to-toe exchanges for as long as I can remember.
Yet what feats has someone like Captain Marvel to offer SAVE fight performance against Blue?
For the period I'm talking about, what you're saying doesn't seem to have much of a true basis. Not in terms of pure physical strength. Not on full examination. And certainly not if we're taking into account the LOW end of Superman showings, which most discussions in forums of this sort understandably do not. [/B][/QUOTE]
um No, you're ignorant. You don't see Superman having stories where he's the "strongest there is?" I pointed-out OUR WORLDS AT WAR, and explained the arguments you attempted to discredit it with. Wonder Woman couldn't do much of anything to an Imperiex Probe without having help to exploit a chink in it's armor, and the explosion nearly killing her is irrelevant because she didn't know about it AND couldn't scratch one attacking it directly with help of an enchanted ax AND Aquaman's help.
Then there's the example I gave that I pointed-out Abhi's given before(more than once I should add) that you've ignored that showed him stronger than Power Girl(someone Diana herself said is at minimum her strength equal, if not superior) and J'Onn and a bunch of others.
(TO BE CONTINUED)
Then there's the MOT #13 example, which I've already shown he had no noticeable improvement in performance to support your justification of him being Sun-Amped(don't keep posting scans and text about solar energy powers him, either concede he wasn't noticeably enhanced or come-up with a better explanation than "Orion's more durable and had help" which both might as well be false).
Then there's some scans I believe Salsa posted earlier, comparing Wonder Woman fighting Superman Robots(just a few) to Superman taking out the army of them used to conquer Earth.
He was the only one really able to handle Doomsday in DEATH OF SUPERMAN and SUPERMAN: DOOMSDAY WARS compared to everybody else.
He walked through Disciple's energy blast despite it took-out the rest of the JLA(yeah, durability's in there too, but clearly strength was involved), including Zauriel and Wonder Woman who DO have particular resistance to mystical force.
He seemed to be the only one really able to hurt Rift, apparently twice in fact.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Hurts%20Rift/
Despite entire teams weren't able to do more than stall him.
And numerous other examples.
As for your arguments of Captain Marvel?
Doesn't look so hot here against Byrne-era Superman.
Some people argue he was amped because of Eclipso, but the fights I saw of Eclipso-possessed Superman during that storyline, as well as the second Eclipso-posesed fight with Captain Marvel, just looked like Superman not holding back instead of amped. And, this was Byrne-era power-levels. Here, the most we can see Captain Marvel accomplish against a Post-DOS/Pre-Mongul Jr. Trained Superman who's not going all-out is stalemate in both fight and arm wrestling.
And here's how well Captain Marvel does against a weakened Post-Mongul Jr. Trained Superman.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman04-20.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman04-21.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman04-22.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman04-23.jpg
Yeah, doesn't look so good for the Captain Marvel's his equal argument.
And on top of that, we also have other examples where Superman just flat-out looks superior over everybody else. I don't see Wonder Woman accomplishing the same thing here.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=Trinity013-03.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=Trinity013-04.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=Trinity013-06.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=Trinity013-08.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=Trinity013-09.jpg
Or this.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman04-04-1.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman04-05-1.jpg
And yeah, those last two weren't pure strength. But it doesn't change the fact that Superman has generally looked stronger than Wonder Woman. Almost always, in fact. How much has varied, but without extenuating circumstances, I have NEVER seen a SINGLE example that actually indicates she's stronger. You've provided nothing, just an outline of your reasons that you've never actually backed.
But hey, IIRC it was Mongul who attacked Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman at the beginning of INFINITE CRISIS. And Diana was pretty much badly outclassed there, and Superman came in and two-shot him. I know that the fight went pretty much along those lines, but I'm not sure if it was Mongul. If I am correct about who it was, not only is that example clearly showing Superman>Wonder Woman in strength, but this doesn't help either, since Superman is effected to an unspecified degree by Kryptonite.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman03-07-1.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman03-10-1.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman03-11.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman03-13.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman03-14.jpg
That's just strength he used to beat-down Mongul, not heat vision, super speed or freeze breath. And I'm still not sure why you're the one asking for why we KNOW Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman. We've been showing. Every example you do one of the following: A: Ignore. B: Dance around and grasp at straws to justify it. C: Say it doesn't count because it was such and such a time ago, and Wonder Woman's become more powerful since. Taking into consideration that pretty much every time you justify it as Wonder Woman was less powerful at the time, that the same is true for Superman, coupled with the fact that you actually haven't SHOWN any examples to back your claim, indicates that this is delusions. No offense intended, but that's the only logical explanation I can come-up with.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Man, I hate KMC's scanning system.
Think I may break down and follow your suggestion very soon, Salsa.
DO IT!! The way you post individual panels/sections several times to show what you want, instead of multiple links in a single post, is annoying and rather distracting, to be honest. Photobucket is one of the largest, and would probably be your best bet.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Do you know what would happen if our Sun's mass were somehow collapsed into a black hole(our star isn't large enough to be one)? I do. Absolutely nothing. Well, in regards to gravity. We'd all die from freezing to death and no light and all that, but Earth wouldn't be moved ...So, that would mean that, if I'm correct about the threat this black hole was, that it'd have to be larger than our Sun for it to really effect other planets beyond Earth.
Two problems here.
1) Black holes in comics are depicted about as accurately as anti-matter is. Which is to say, not at all.
2) You're leaving out distance in your gravity speculations.
You'd experience a lot more gravitational force if the sun were 93 INCHES away from you versus 93 million MILES.
Even more so if you shrunk the sun down to egg size or less, and then stood near THAT. You have even your NASA physics wrong when you fail to take that into account.
Here, from someone who knows more about it than either of us:
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Two problems here.1) Black holes in comics are depicted about as accurately as anti-matter is. Which is to say, not at all.
So this only matters when it comes to it working against my argument? It's not like you've had a problem with this before with scans you've shown in the past.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
2) You're leaving out distance in your gravity speculations.
You'd experience a lot more gravitational force if the sun were 93 INCHES away from you versus 93 million MILES.
Even more so if you shrunk the sun down to egg size or less, and then stood near THAT. You have even your NASA physics wrong when you fail to take that into account.Here, from someone who knows more about it than either of us:
You misunderstood me. I said, far as I'm aware, the black hole was a threat to the Solar System, not just Earth. That would mean, I was remembering about the threat right, that it'd effect the other planets, as well. So by comparison, the mass would have to be larger than that of Sol to be effecting other planets instead of just the nearest neighbor.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Then there's the MOT #13 example, which I've already shown he had no noticeable improvement in performance to support your justification of him being Sun-Amped(don't keep posting scans and text about solar energy powers him, either concede he wasn't noticeably enhanced or come-up with a better explanation than "Orion's more durable and had help" which both might as well be false).
1) Show me where I've said "Orion's more durable" than Superman anywhere, absolutely anywhere, in this thread.
2) Answer my question: where have you seen increased sunlight increase Superman's powers, or really, that of any Kryptonian, without also increasing his or her other powers?
It's a package deal. When one increases, so do the others.
Originally posted by Delta1938[X] only matters when it comes to it working against my argument? It's not like you've had a problem with this before with scans you've shown in the past.
I give respect to good reasoning and evidence to back it up.
Sometimes good reasoning all on its own.
You're not providing any good reason I should believe the JLA writer had what you claim in mind for Mnemon, save that you WANT that to be the case for Superman.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
1) Show me where I've said "Orion's more durable" than Superman anywhere, absolutely anywhere, in this thread.
Not in this thread. But if you're who I think you are, you did on the DC boards. I've already treated you like you were him and stated I believe you're him, and even pointed-out that you haven't denied it. Do you deny that you're him? Do you just happen to have the exact same style of everything from I believe it was guest2? If you don't deny it, you not having said it in this thread is irrelevant unless you state that you no longer believe Orion is more durable than Superman. The claim that Orion is more durable, and he had help, were the only things you could use to counter the point that Superman showed no indication of actually being stronger than normal in his fight with Orion.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
2) Answer my question: where have you seen increased sunlight increase Superman's powers, or really, that of any Kryptonian, without also increasing his or her other powers?It's a package deal. When one increases, so do the others.
Then explain how he showed to be no stronger than normal against Orion if he actually was amped to the level you think he is. What? The boost was inactive until Wonder Woman got involved? Orion isn't more durable than Superman, and the "help" he had might as well have been non-existent. The only explanation is that he wasn't boosted like you wish he were to justify him blatantly showing to be stronger than her. This is NOT the only time he's shown to be as strong or stronger than a group of individuals with Top-Tier strength, yes examples where he was not boosted. So the fact that there's other examples coupled with no noticeable strength increase against Orion shows that him being Sun-Amped is just grasping at straws.
And different writers have shown different portrayals to how his absorption works. I mean Hell, one time he was pretty much completely depowered and I believe TELEPORTED inside a sun and he survived because he quickly regained his powers. If he always absorbed that quickly, he really would've been tossing around the entire JLA, Orion included, like ragdolls with the scans you're showing. It simply could've been he had more solar energy reserves for the Kryptonite to displace, since that's how it works. His body absorbs it, displacing solar energy, and it's toxic/harmful to him.
Now that I've given credible reason to explain your argument, would you kindly get around to why he showed to be no stronger than normal against Orion beyond ignoring it and hoping that the "Sun-Amp" argument is still credible?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I give respect to good reasoning and evidence to back it up.
Sometimes good reasoning all on its own.You're not providing any good reason I should believe the JLA writer had what you claim in mind for Mnemon, save that you WANT that to be the case for Superman.
I'd have to check, but that's the impression I remember from the reaction of the magnetic field dropping. But even if I'm wrong, that's one example of me having "wishful thinking" compared to your mountain of examples? I mean seriously, all this talk about going over their histories, conception themes, how their powers work, ect. all seems like a way to try to con people into being convinced of your viewpoint without evidence. As you've not shown a single example that was hard evidence. Dark Knight Litmus Test, when you actually pay attention, in fact is evidence AGAINST your claim, and the Callisto incident? Your lack of comprehension on different portrayals and "Dramatic Tension" assuming that Abhi is wrong when he stated there were extenuating circumstances you left-out.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Incidentally, Mnemon journeyed from place to place destroying civilizations. It didn't just stay in one spot and suck things in from afar. I can show you a few panels of that if necessary.
And that is relevant why? Did you read the issue? Mnemon was an artificial intelligence who messed with people. The threat of the black hole it's self, not it being manipulated by an AI, didn't happen until Atom's getting a song stuck in it's head and the magnetic field was dropped.
