Originally posted by abhilegend
This troll is still here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLHABlp8Ntg
I don't think he's a troll. But if I'm wrong, he's one of the most subtle trolls I've ever encountered. So who's the Chael Sonnen of this site?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpT2W4zRzzM
Not Quanchi, he actually BELIEVES he's that great.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Problem #1. I'm taking this chronologically to answer your page 12 assertion that, not only do you think Superman is physically stronger than Wonder Woman, but that this has ALWAYS been the case.
(You use the phrasing "since forever", which, in American English, is not significantly different from saying exactly that.)
I'm covering this chronologically to answer more than that, of course, but I've already explained as much several times in this thread.Problem #2. You haven't defined what you consider a feat.
Problem #3. You haven't defined, not even in rough terms, unless I've been extraordinarily and unintentionally oblivious to your explanations, what you mean by "strong".
#3, especially, becomes significant when you THEN follow up physical strength showings from me by balking and saying "X was a greater feat than your feat Y by Z order of magnitude".
For example, I explain I'm taking my interpretation off of what is most commonly seen and KNOWN for early Superman.
I use the specific examples of Superman lifting that car in Action Comics #1, ripping down the steel door to the governor's room
(to wake the governor and get him to grant an emergency pardon to a wrongly accused man and save his life),
and his popular "more powerful than a locomotive".The car and train allusions are known the world over.
The WORLD over; not just among Man of Steel aficionados .
What comic fan who wanders into this thread has to read a book to discover Superman can pick up and run with a car or stop a train?
It's been covered by book, radio, magazine, and film throughout the years, both animated and live action, in fact all these media simultaneously, and that since about the 1940s.Not so for Wonder Woman. The average fan doesn't know of her from her days of origin. He knows of her from the 1970s Lynda Carter show or the popular "Superfriends" cartoon at best, if he knows her at all.
The comparatively small fraction of comic-reading forum-visiting fans know a little more, but most of these, too, are relatively uninformed.I am honestly wondering, for instance, where you yourself think she is strength-wise, and NOT in relation to Superman or anyone else, but simply in terms of what she can do on the reasonably objective scale of lifting or controlling the movement of very heavy objects.
Simultaneous WITH that, I genuinely desire to know WHEN you think she was able to perform the biggest lifts or movements on your list.For your objection, "Superman performed a feat far greater than stopping a train in this showing right here" makes the most sense to me if you're thinking:
"Wonder Woman's greatest feat was stopping a train. She has no feats equal to the one I'm showing here."
But I'm not showing Wonder Woman stopping a train to say
"This is her best strength feat."It's not.
It's not even close.
And I don't really think you're aware of that.
But when you're comparing Wondy to a guy who is known the world over specifically for BEING "more powerful than a locomotive", and she is not, it only makes sense to show this woman stopping a locomotive.
Because most people didn't KNOW she could do that.
Let alone that she was ACCUSTOMED to doing that sort of that thing in her books.It's a natural starting point.
Well, this just further enhances the problem I've had with your entire time on this thread, as well as my previous encounters with you on the DC boards. You're doing all this talk and not showing anything. I have yet to see you show any real feats to back your claim. And now, you're going about and going from the Golden Age to present day and not even doing top feats of the era? I understand the whole wanting to show during the Golden Age that Diana had matched or exceeded many of the things Superman was known for, but between you're just doing that, and how poorly it comes-out the way you're presenting scans, it really does look like you're simply trying to distract from a lack of evidence. It'd be better for you to make a Photobucket account, compile the GOOD feats and other examples from each era, and present them normally. Either via links or image links. But the way you're doing it? Not very efficient and rather distracting. This is where you get accused of spamming the thread. While most of the posts have been relevant to the discussion, the way you're doing it does essentially make it spamming the thread as you could make your points in far fewer posts if you just used a regular image hosting service like everyone else. It would be far, far easier to just post the entire page(or pages) instead of individual panels that are cropped, which unless you're doing to high-light something, just looks dishonest, and even then it can(unless you enlarge the image and highlight what you want to bring attention to in addition to the full page). The whole bank vault thing I really wish you stopped posting the panels after the actual feat, as it was completely and utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[B]Restatement of criterion.http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=6
I'll repeat the above as often as necessary, condensing and collating until it is clear to the average reader, Salsa.
Or at least to you.
You should see I'm being quite systematic.
Let's re-list the main points from that self-quoted paragraph.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
their background,
how their powers work,
their character limitations,
plot limitations,
overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights,
competitions against each other
and other mutual foes
and powerful beings,
origins,
and basic concepts,
--------------------------------------------------------------------I've covered "basic concept". At least for Wonder Woman.
That was as follows:--------------------------------------------------------------------
" Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman."
-- William Moulton Marston, creator of Wonder Woman, 1943, The American Scholar
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[/B]
Actually, no, many of these issues are irrelevant. The fights and feats are what's important. Using the other arguments you have is more like a crutch for lack of what really counts. No matter how much someone is in love with the Golden Age Wonder Woman, the creator's intent is irrelevant in this day and age. Her creator died less than 6 years after he started writing her, so he didn't even get the say-so through the entire Golden Age, let alone Silver, Bronze and Modern Age. And clearly, his intent doesn't dictate anything today, like I recall some posters(perhaps it was you) argued on the DC boards, claiming that there was some contract that DC would lose Wonder Woman if they didn't respect the creator's wishes and had her equal to Superman. Not only was proof of this claim not given, but clearly DC doesn't abide by it as there's instances of BOTH him being stated and shown to be stronger than her, both directly(I recall her wishing she were as strong as him) and indirectly(Power Girl being "At LEAST as strong and fast as I am" since Superman's stronger than Power Girl). And this has gone on for years, at least since the 90's, but DC still has her. Really, it seems like you decided that Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman before actually learning anything about the topic. You find a lack of evidence in the comics, so then you start over-thinking other things including stuff that CLEARLY is irrelevant in this day. And the only actual concepts that got you to your decision that matter are pretty lacking in examples you've thus provided.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What is Superman's?
I don't know.It's not "you will believe a man can fly". That came later.
It's not "strongest one there is". That's Hulk, not Superman.Presumably you have an answer for that, now would be an appropriate time to supply it.
I'd think it had something to do as Superman being the ultimate example of an immigrant succeeding, considering both his creators were Jewish(who weren't treated well back then) and the son of immigrants.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Background?That was what was being discussed these past 2 or 3 pages.
Both creations were obviously affected by and influenced by World War II, but Superman preceded World War II, so presumably that will make for some differences.It's interesting to see Lois Lane imperiled by 1930s gangs, then again by natural disasters or accidents, then again by Nazis and war criminals. Thanks for that bridge showing from Action Comics #5, by the way. Very cool. And previously unseen.
Their background could arguably be a relevant factor for Golden Age versions, but One: I'm being generous saying that, and Two: Golden Age, not after.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'll mention now that Wonder Woman and Superman during this time occupied relatively separate universes. Action Comics was its own realm. National Comics, Wonder Woman's producer, was another. Fawcett Comics was a third, but, unlike National and Action, the company that was to become DC was not interested in partnering with Fawcett.
Actually, the publisher Wonder Woman came from was partly owned by National, and fully bought-out after the publisher left.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Fawcett was the producer of Captain Marvel.
You mentioned "popular consensus" a post or 2 ago.
I think this is an important point.
For Superman was popular. And so was Captain Marvel.
But Wonder Woman not QUITE so much as either of these 2.
But Superman was considered tops in his reality.
And Captain Marvel tops in his own.
And Wonder Woman tops in HER own.But Wonder Woman did not QUITE have the popular support of Captain Marvel or Superman. So people don't KNOW that she was tops in her realm to nearly the same extent that they know of Supes or CM.
Wonder Woman wasn't AS popular, but it doesn't mean she wasn't popular. According to THE GREATEST FLASH STORIES EVER TOLD trade paperback, she was one of the very 3 most popular characters during the Golden Age. And we know she was one of the very few to survive through the 50's before the start of the Silver Age with Flash(I think it was Barry before Hal?).
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Frustratingly, few people come forward showing how she used to be. I suspect that is because her readership from early days is either largely gone now, or not Internet savvy.
Sadly, this is understandable, a fan just 10 years old back then would be in his 80s now.
By contrast, the people of 20 years later, 1960s readers, they would have some internet experience, and want to write about their childhood heroes. But these fans would have started reading about Wonder Woman when she and Supes were forced into a shared reality, and Wonder Woman's creator was gone and thus had less influence on what his heroine did in the magazines. After great feats had been already compiled.
This is actually completely irrelevant as most forum posters don't argue Golden Age characters PERIOD. I recall on the DC boards when you said that Wonder Woman was without a doubt stronger than Superman going by feats in the Golden Age, and stated you didn't even know if Superman's moved a planet. But nobody could argue with you, because nobody knew much about the Golden Age period. Then, BAM!! I dropped a hydrogen bomb on ya.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=superman58_pg46.jpg
Not only did he move a planet, but via strength he actually created a sun.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
"Strongest punch I've taken.
Ever."---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman/Batman #56, Volume 1
Writers: Michael Green & Mike Johnson
Penciller: Rags Morales
Date: March 2009
---------------------------------------------------------------------The question, and I'm not being facetious here, I want a serious answer:
"How do we know this is NOT Batman as he normally is, NOT Batman as he should be, NOT something more than a power boost given to Batman ONLY so the writers can tell their story with him?"
Well, here's the correct link.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13828640
As has been pointed-out around these posts' time, and I've posted before, this is invalid as evidence. In fact, I've pointed it out to you on the DC boards, yet you still cling to it? Batman's actual words are stating he knows Clark's powerless and on Earth. Why would he say that if he thought it were Wonder Woman to begin with, because it's the hardest he's ever been hit? He wouldn't. This is actually evidence of Superman being stronger. Of course there's outright proof, so this only corroborates numerous other examples you ignore, or grasp at straws to justify dismissing.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
P.R., you should stick around longer per visit.Are you asking me if Batman has ever taken a full shot from Blue? I don't really know. I DO know that comic writers have found ways for Bats to take and gauge the punching power of some seriously heavyweight players.
Superman/Batman #56 is one such example.
Unless I have my issue numbers mixed up, though, Superman/Batman #12 is another. That one features Batman taking punches from DARKSEID, DC's "Big Bad" himself, certainly a Superman-level power, yet surviving due to the protective otherworldly shielding of a Mother Box, which has proven able to sustain people past otherwise fatal impacts and injury.
The very image you provide has Batman state that the beating Darkseid is issuing is simply for his amusement. This means that Darkseid isn't hitting Batman very hard. The fact is, Darkseid knew Batman checkmated him, but that doesn't mean he couldn't retaliate a little before letting them leave. I highly doubt the blows Darkseid issued were anywhere near what Superman would deliver in a fight with someone of roughly equal strength, let alone going all-out. So this is not an example of Batman taking Superman-level force at ALL. Even if Darkseid were attempting to kill Batman, that doesn't necessarily mean that Batman was taking full-force blows, as it'd be relatively easy for Darkseid to overpower Batman to remove the Mother Box, then beat him to death. And Darkseid wouldn't even need to use 25% of his full-force strikes to kill Batman so hard that his great great great great grandparents feel it.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I recall, too, though I don't own the issue, that Batman once used the then-popularly featured "Black Rock" or "Blackstone"
to fight Superman after Superman went crazy or got mind-controlled yet again. Superman was trying to kill Batman in that instance, yet the Blackrock enables people to contend with Kryptonian level threats, as demonstrated in, say, Superman #223. If ever there was a time writers found a way to have Batman "tank" a true Kryptonian-level punch, that would have been a prime time for it.
You're partially right. Superman had already overcome the effects of the Blackrock by the time he fought Batman being amped by it. Superman trying to kill him was Superman saying that he'd either free Batman or kill him trying, as the Blackrock would give-up control if the host was threatened. It reasoned Superman doesn't kill, Superman said he'd make an exception, because he knew Bruce would rather die than be controlled like that. It's unclear if Superman truly were trying to kill Batman, or was putting on a convincing performance. But here's the fight anyways.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Super%20Powered-Batman/
Looking at that though, it certainly doesn't seem like Superman's hardest punches. And certainly doesn't appear like he's going all-out, especially taking this into consideration.
Kilowog, Power Girl, Blue Beetle, Martian Manhunter and more alien-based heroes are being aided by multiple Blackrock enhanced humans. And while I'm sure that Batman was stronger than any of those individually, whether strength was stacked or proportionately scaled-up, since they're random generic people and Batman's the gosh darn Batman, I highly doubt Batman would be stronger than all of them AND PG, MM, Kilowog and others COMBINED. No, I doubt he would be. Yet Superman forces all of them off him when they attempt to restrain him. Chances are, Batman was not feeling full-force Kryptonian strikes here either. Greater than he experienced with Darkseid? Most likely. But a true measure of what Superman can do? Nope.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Regardless, whether Superman himself actually did so, Batman IS credentialed where rating letitimate metahuman punches is concerned.
And both examples you cited have been dissected and proven to be faulty. And you damn well should hope that people ignore my examples, because as I've already pointed-out, Batman's initial assumption is Superman hit him, but he knows that can't be, so figures Wonder Woman by process of elimination, so, right there, it's something you need to stop using. If people go with Batman figured-out it's Superman despite not having experienced full-force Kryptonian punches? Well that makes the ironically against your claim evidence all the more damning.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Re-examine the attachment at the end of this post for some unexpected proof.
(checks scan) Nope, still says Darkseid's giving Batman the beating 'cuz it rocks Seid's socks.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
P.R., are you really referring to the same character I am?
I'm not sure you realize, Matt Idelsen was saying that of the CURRENT DCnU Supergirl, and not Jeph Loeb's or Sterling Gates' rendition.Here, take a look if you haven't seen this, and please clarify what you meant or were basing your statement on ...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
" ... [T]he cover was shown to issue #5. Included were towers from Argo City. She goes from Argo City to Siberia.Issue #2 pages were shown, and it includes the first time Supergirl meets her cousin, Superman. "There's a certain distrust," Asrar said with a laugh as a slide was shown where Supergirl punches Superman.
[B]"She's actually stronger than Kal-El,"
Idelson said. Johnson said, "She came out of that pod ready to go, as people noticed," he said.The beginning of the second issue starts on Krypton, Johnson said, then it moves to Earth and establishes the new status quo for the relationship and distrust between Superman and Supergirl..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/nycc-2011-dc-superman-panel-111015.html [/B]
You're saying that Pr appears to be mistaking which character you meant, and I believe you say the same to Salsa later. Funny, 'cuz of this.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It might be worth a moment to explain, at the least, that an OMAC is a "super" cyborg. The form Diana was fighting was nanotechnology that took over ordinary human people and made them into such powerful fighting forces that they could fight and eliminate people in the class of Captain Marvel, Eradicator, and Superman.Over in KMC's "All New Supergirl Respect Thread" (which is actually now about 5 years old -- time flies!), one can be seen reversing a choke Supergirl put one in (JLA #122, Volume 1), applying it instead to HER.
This is particularly interesting to note when one considers that the writings of Jeph Loeb, Joe Kelly, and Mark Verheiden all provide evidence that Kara was, in fact, physically stronger than her cousin Kal-el, alias Clark Kent, aka Superman.[/B]Below, you can see an OMAC giving the Man of Steel himself some problems ... [/B]
So, you clearly have argued that Supergirl is superior to Superman in the past, in this very thread.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Back to Wonder Woman.Salsa, like the train, the scan of Wonder Woman with the safe was NOT to say "This is Wonder Woman's greatest strength feat ever". It was, as I alluded to before, an instance of some known Superman feat being matched and/or superceded by a Wonder Woman feat.
Again, I'm going on what I know, I know that these 2 characters were produced by different companies, I know that Marston designed Wonder Woman as the answer to Superman, I know that he had Wonder Woman performing a lot of strength feats, I know that Superman was often the model.
Famously in Action Comics #1, for instance, Superman lifts a car and runs with it a bit.
Well, in a seeming instance of "Keeping up with the Joneses", Wonder Woman soon does the following ...
As I pointed before, the publisher Wonder Woman started with was actually partially owned from the beginning by the publisher Superman started with. So that's not the best argument.
But what's worse is the more I read you focusing on the Golden Age, and the more I think about all those times you posted your reasoning(without actually showing evidence) for why you falsely think Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman, is that you're actually including ALL of her publishing history. Like it matters to either modern Wonder Woman and Superman. Which is even more faulty considering it's already been proven that Superman>Wonder Woman in strength in the Golden Age too. Your arguments just appear to get worse and worse.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As far as the safe incident goes, Salsa, it was not my primary purpose to show people discounting women, even as today.
I'm not sure if you realize that this just further reinforces the perception you've given me that you don't have any hard evidence for Wonder Woman. It just screams that you're using it as a crutch to excuse that you're lacking feats. And you're continuous inability to post feats, on top of faulty attempts to dismiss evidence, ignoring evidence, and ignoring counters to your attempts to dismiss evidence, just further paints a picture that you've got nothing. It's this reason that abhi's been uncivil to you. He's actually a pretty good debater. To be honest, much better than you. YOU wouldn't know that from this thread because A: He hasn't said much and B: You basically dislike him, so have bias against him. But in all reality, the handful of posts he's done blow all your psychobabble and thesaurus-abusing out of the water. The reason he's treating you like he is? He's convinced you're a troll. And your continuous arguments, misinterpretation(I'll be kind and assume you're misinterpreting instead of misrepresenting) and failure to provide actual examples actually showing Wonder Woman to be stronger while asking for examples of Superman being stronger and IGNORING THEM WHEN GIVEN sure paints that picture to him.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It was, again, an instance of a feat I know to have been done by Superman being superceded by a greater Wonder Woman feat.Surely at some future point from that time Superman must have one-upped himself. That is not the point.
Most such instances would probably be unknown to me, truthfully. I'd wager that would be true for the majority of fans in this forum.Regardless, the fact is many of Superman's well known strength feats were noted, and matched, and superceded by Wonder Woman writers in the early days.
Again, for instance, in Action Comics #1, Superman famously rips down a steel door. It happens to be to a governor's house, and he's doing so to try to wake the governor in time to get him to stop a wrongful execution.
Well, that scene is impressive. But Wonder Woman not only handles steel but thicker steel. It is not the steel of a door but a vault, which people KNOW to be impressively thick.
And, of course, on top of that, it is electrified.
One upmanship by Wonder Woman on the Man of Steel by TWO points of difficulty.
Take a look at the 2 scenes side-by-side now and my reason for earlier posting "the case of Thomas Tighe" should make more sense:
In all honesty, your point is completely unnecessary. If you actually think Wonder Woman's stronger, in any era apparently, you need to prove it. Compile the best feats and fights from each era, make a Photobucket so you can actually do a good job of presenting them, and wait for the evidence to counter your claims. The whole argument you're doing of saying about she matched or exceeded his best known feats back in the day is really better left for when you've actually made a real case. What you're doing just makes me think you've got NOTHING and are needlessly dragging it out in hopes of confusing everybody to agree with you. You did the same on the DC boards, and you haven't changed at all. If anything, you've gotten worse in arguing your case. The Dark Knight Litmus Test was bad enough until you brought-up Darkseid and the Blackrock examples as evidence that Batman would know how hard Superman can hit.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I meant EXACTLY that episode, Salsa! Thank you!
Salsa already explained about the wrestling with Wonder Woman example. Even if you take away he wasn't focused, it's a grappling match. Technique, not strength. I've out-grappled bigger, stronger opponents. But that not only is it shown Superman isn't focused, but he sends her away like he does with one arm when he does? Yeah, that pretty much further ruins this as any sort of evidence that she's stronger and in fact shows he's the stronger one.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Well, we'll get to SilverBlue in due time.For now I'll only point out that DC put the fear of litigation into its competitors, most notably Fawcett Comics, owner of Captain Marvel.
CM was the most popular superhero in the world.
UNTIL, that is, the people at DC took them to court.I imagine that made a lot of other storytellers a bit gunshy afterwards ...
Thank you for acknowledging the point, at any rate.
Here's a cleaner side-by-side of the car, bus, and safe examples which I intended to post a little earlier:
Like I already said, at the time, National partially owned , All-American Publications(finally rechecked). I highly doubt they had any real fears of retaliation from National.
Originally posted by Delta1938
... asking for examples of Superman being stronger and IGNORING THEM WHEN GIVEN ...
The only major contributor before you, who only started posting yesterday or the day before, was Bien Salsa.
Where EXACTLY do you think I've ignored any evidence he's presented?
What do you think I've failed to acknowledge or address by P.R.
With you, though I'm still reading the walls of texts and scans you're posting, I've answered probably half of everything you've brought up.
What EXACTLY do you think I'm ignoring? Exactly WHAT form does a response need to take for you to understand, "Okay, he's acknowledges what I posted and either agrees or disagrees with me for this(these) reason(s)."?
Because a lot of what you're posting may seem ironclad to you, but either ignores what I'VE specifically said, illustrates something you're mistaken about, or illustrates something you're completely off-base about.
For instance, the Superman/Batman #56 scan.
Yeah, Batman does say the hardest punch he's ever felt was delivered by Wonder Woman. You can't make him unsay that.
But I'm not actually using that scan to say "Wonder Woman punches harder than Superman, who has punched Batman before, therefore Wonder Woman is stronger".
If you read further in this thread, I explained to Salsa specifically that this "Superbat" episode was listed because I wanted Salsa's answer to the question "How do we KNOW this is NOT Batman as he normally is?"
You can have Batman flying to the sun and back. You can have Batman taking punches from Wonder Woman. You can have him taking on and winning a battle with the Justice League heavy hitters physically on even terms. Feats and fights. But does this tell you it's VALID, under normal conditions, for Batman to be doing so?
And the answer of course is that it is not. And Salsa was honest enough to tacitly admit that. He also addressed the larger point that there are rules governing how these characters operate. You can't validly ignore things like sunlight empowering Superman or at higher levels increasing his strength and other abilities under normal conditions.
You cannot do that. Increased yellow sun = more strength, more power under any normal conditions for Superman.
That's part of the very definition of how post-Crisis Kryptonian powers work in the DCU. When you separate people from their inherent pro-Superman bias by presenting someone who is NOT Superman, immediately they can tell you correctly "Hey, Batman wasn't really powerful if he didn't get much sun, that's how Kryptonian powers work, I NEED TO CHECK TO SEE IF HE CHARGED".
Separate from pro-Superman bias, people can correctly tell you this.
Apart from it? You get the kind of responses you've been giving.
Same with the case of Orion.
Wasn't talked about at all in this thread.
Irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
Superman is more durable than Orion?
Okay, but what has that to do with Wonder Woman?
Am I arguing that she is more durable than Superman?
Or even AS durable? Have I EVER made that claim for her?
Then you argue that Orion should have gotten wasted if Superman was amped. But that's the way his powers work. He WAS amped. Proof is that he survives Kyle's kryptonite exposure. He says so himself.
And, again, that's in the very definition of how his powers work.
You have to IGNORE the fact of Superman's survival, IGNORE his statement of fact, and IGNORE the portrayal of nearly every other yellow sun exposure to a post-Crisis Kryptonian, including Superman himself, to come to the conclusion that he wasn't enhanced.
Again, something you did not acknowledge, but you seem to think there is nothing between Superman at normal power levels and Superman as this blazing "Firelord"-looking character pushing Pluto in Our Worlds at War. There are DEGREES of sun-amping. It isn't a case of either/or as you falsely portray. I'm sure OWAW sun-amped Superman WOULD waste Orion. But the fact that he isn't blazing like the Human Torch in MOT13 can in no way dismiss the fact that he IS enhanced beyond normal capablity, and his relative success against the Justice League IS consistent with that view.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The only major contributor before you, who only started posting yesterday or the day before, was Bien Salsa.Where EXACTLY do you think I've ignored any evidence he's presented?
That would take entirely too long to go back to and tally-up everything. Although there is one example that comes to mind that him, Pr, abhi and myself share in common that you've never truly answered.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What do you think I've failed to acknowledge or address by P.R.
Pr has referenced, although not provided scans, for quite a few instances. And him, salsa, abhi and myself are all still waiting for the big question. WHAT do you have that actually makes you think Wonder Woman is stronger? You've posted very little actual evidence, and a mountain of irrelevant reasons. We all want hard evidence, you're not giving it. Also, abhi has posted a handful of examples that you've ignored. I know you don't like him for his attitude towards you, but it does not change the fact that he's provided examples, with scans, that at the least hurt your arguments and claims, if not nullify them, and you've essentially only replied to him that he's not very nice.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
With you, though I'm still reading the walls of texts and scans you're posting, I've answered probably half of everything you've brought up.
To be honest, you're not exactly one to accuse others of writing walls of text. While you appreciated I admitted I hadn't read everything, you seemed to take issue that I hadn't read the entire thread. Well, I'm fixing that. My "walls of text" are due to the sheer number of posts I'm going through, and sometimes being sleep deprived effecting my ability to put my thoughts to type. You on the other hand are really bad at using far more words than you really need. Sometimes it's cleverly hidden by how you post scans, as you do several cropped scans that take a single post for each.
After this post, I'll stop posting about previous arguments in the thread for the time being, even though I have a tab open that's already worked a lot on a few of your previous posts(started it in the afternoon yesterday, had to stop and never got around to coming back here until this morning).
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What EXACTLY do you think I'm ignoring? Exactly WHAT form does a response need to take for you to understand, "Okay, he's acknowledges what I posted and either agrees or disagrees with me for this(these) reason(s)."?
Like I posted earlier, the big thing you've failed to provide when asked is actual examples to back your stance. While you acknowledged my question of fighting while on LSD, you danced around it and ignored the whole point of it, that Superman didn't know who he was fighting and thus wouldn't have been able to react as well to counter Wonder Woman, or properly anticipate her moves. Myself and Pr have both pointed-out reasons for Superman not dodging attacks, and you failed to admit that was a bad argument on your part to justify Wonder Woman still would've hit him with the tiara if he really knew who he was fighting. You've failed to acknowledge examples showing Superman is indeed stronger than you think he is, such as him showing to be stronger than multiple characters COMBINED who are individually around as strong as Wonder Woman. Abhi posted it first, but you failed to acknowledge him failing to be restrained by Power Girl(who by Diana's own admission is minimum equally as strong as WW), Martian Manhunter(who I recall from the DC boards you also think is stronger than Superman), and several, several others. It's also been shown that Superman is at least as strong as Supergirl(Kara), Power Girl, and 3 other Supergirls(Cir-El, Linda Danvers, and what appears to be a Silver Age Kara). I'd like to see something showing that Wonder Woman can replicate that. I got no response to my explanation about the black hole thing, that it wasn't just Earth I believe was in danger, countering your argument of gravity would be more of a threat 93 inches away instead of 93 million miles, nor the point I made when you stated that the Mnmeon(sp?) didn't suck-up civilizations(making your argument irrelevant). And you did acknowledge the choke defense example, but again merely danced around it. It doesn't matter what you use to try and justify it, Diana attempted the same technique as the Krav Maga choke defense, as you can clearly see in the art, and failed to break his grip. And unless you're going to say that Israelis are way better Martial Artists and warriors than the Amazons and Diana completely and utterly screwed-up the technique(which actually would make her less skilled than an average person who's practiced it), you can't get around that she failed to break Superman's grip with a technique that allows a victim to break the grip of a STRONGER attacker, thus showing he's FAR stronger than her. You've ignored the points I gave when you tried to dismiss how Superman treated Imperiex Probes compared to Wonder Woman, AND the scans showing that Diana(with an enchanted ax) and Orin together literally couldn't scratch one, as well as never clarified what exactly you meant by Aquaman "cracking it's hand open." If you meant forcing the hand open, it was cut-off from it's power source so no more grip. If you meant he actually broke the material it was made of, there's nothing in the comic remotely hinting that. And, while you might think it's irrelevant, you failed to admit you messed-up when trying to use an MMA analogy against me, by showing a kickboxing match, and your analogy was flawed even if we ignore that mistake. That's quite a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head, and I'm sure that's less than half of what I've written. But what's most important is you've dodged the actual first reason: you have NOT shown any hard evidence. And you dance around this.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Because a lot of what you're posting may seem ironclad to you, but either ignores what I'VE specifically said, illustrates something you're mistaken about, or illustrates something you're completely off-base about.
Elaborate on this. It seems that it partly means you outlining your various reasonings that make you think Diana is stronger, but as I've pointed-out, that sure seems like a way to just drag things out to try and confuse us all into agreeing with you, due to you lacking evidence.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
For instance, the Superman/Batman #56 scan.
Yeah, Batman does say the hardest punch he's ever felt was delivered by Wonder Woman. You can't make him unsay that.But I'm not actually using that scan to say "Wonder Woman punches harder than Superman, who has punched Batman before, therefore Wonder Woman is stronger".
If you read further in this thread, I explained to Salsa specifically that this "Superbat" episode was listed because I wanted Salsa's answer to the question "How do we KNOW this is NOT Batman as he normally is?"
You can have Batman flying to the sun and back. You can have Batman taking punches from Wonder Woman. You can have him taking on and winning a battle with the Justice League heavy hitters physically on even terms. Feats and fights. But does this tell you it's VALID, under normal conditions, for Batman to be doing so?
Here's the problem. You never said anything along those lines on the DC board, never showed anything about trying to "clarify" your reason for posting that. You simply posted it and called it the "Dark Knight Litmus Test." Which certainly screams it's being used as some type of evidence to show WW's stronger than Superman. And to top it off, this was only one of two examples you gave. The other being a rather poor example that required a lot of spinning to make it "evidence." And now you're suddenly using it differently?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
And the answer of course is that it is not. And Salsa was honest enough to tacitly admit that. He also addressed the larger point that there are rules governing how these characters operate. You can't validly ignore things like sunlight empowering Superman or at higher levels increasing his strength and other abilities under normal conditions.
You cannot do that. Increased yellow sun = more strength, more power under any normal conditions for Superman.
That's part of the very definition of how post-Crisis Kryptonian powers work in the DCU. When you separate people from their inherent pro-Superman bias by presenting someone who is NOT Superman, immediately they can tell you correctly "Hey, Batman wasn't really powerful if he didn't get much sun, that's how Kryptonian powers work, I NEED TO CHECK TO SEE IF HE CHARGED".Separate from pro-Superman bias, people can correctly tell you this.
Apart from it? You get the kind of responses you've been giving.
So, it's all a fancy way to dance around the fact that you can't answer the problem that Orion poses to your wishful thinking that Superman truly was amped when he proved to be stronger than Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Big Barda and more combined.
(TO BE CONTINUED)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Same with the case of Orion.
Wasn't talked about at all in this thread.Irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
You SHOULD know why all the issues with Orion are relevant here. The very fact that you're saying it's not and asking why points to three things. One: Your reading comprehension is horrible. Two: You haven't been paying attention. Three: You've paid attention and understand, but you don't like the conclusion so you want to ignore it, but can't. So you're trying to dismiss it as irrelevant. Which is it?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Superman is more durable than Orion?
Okay, but what has that to do with Wonder Woman?
Am I arguing that she is more durable than Superman?
Or even AS durable? Have I EVER made that claim for her?Then you argue that Orion should have gotten wasted if Superman was amped. But that's the way his powers work. He WAS amped. Proof is that he survives Kyle's kryptonite exposure. He says so himself.
And, again, that's in the very definition of how his powers work.
You have to IGNORE the fact of Superman's survival, IGNORE his statement of fact, and IGNORE the portrayal of nearly every other yellow sun exposure to a post-Crisis Kryptonian, including Superman himself, to come to the conclusion that he wasn't enhanced.
OK, even though it SHOULD be obvious and I've even already explained some of these questions, I'll explain it all. So stick with me. I feel I'm going to have to go into great detail here.
You keep claiming that Superman was amped well beyond his normal capabilities in MAN OF TOMORROW #13. Even if you don't think Wonder Woman of this period of time(around 1999) were stronger than Superman, you'd think she was close. I'd have to say the same for Martian Manhunter. And I believe there were things showing Barda to be close to Wonder Woman in strength. So, going by your logic, that's 3 beings at least close to Superman in strength, plus Supergirl(Linda Danvers), Superboy and Steel had some involvement.
So, for Superman to be able to show strength greater than all of them combined(remember, they had a leverage advantage, so he'd have to be even stronger than them combined if they struggled to restrain him with a leverage advantage), he would have to have an IMMENSE boost. At least 5 times stronger than normal if we go by Diana, J'Onn and Barda individually have from 80%-90% of his strength. And remember, this is assuming you think Superman's a little stronger than J'Onn and Diana of back then, let alone if you think they're individually stronger.
Well, I've shown you the fight Superman and Orion had during the Byrne-era. You could argue Orion's modestly stronger. Superman had an official power-up(as I showed it was verified with the scans from SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF STEEL #30) so this would put them on roughly equal level in strength for an unamped Superman. Yet, in their fight before the rest of the JLA(plus Team Superman) restrain Superman, Supes and Orion fight to a stalemate, with no noticeable increase in strength for Superman compared to their previous fight, beyond what you'd expect from his official power-up when he returned from the dead. Sure, it's possible Superman WAS a little bit stronger than normal, but we're talking by such a small percentage that you can't even notice it.
Now, the reason why I proved that Superman is more durable than Orion is because of YOU, back on the DC boards. You yourself tried to brush off the point that Orion stalemating an amped Superman made no sense, considering their previous fight, as Orion is more durable than Superman, and had help. I proved to you back then that Superman is the more durable of the two, and Orion's "help" consisted entirely of Green Lantern having had chains restraining Superman(that Superman broke as soon as he tried) right before the fight with Orion, and Barda sneaking-in and blasting Superman right before the final attack Orion produced before the JLA restrained him. Forgetful? So, you see? Superman being more durable than Orion is completely relevant to the argument. Something you SHOULD have realized since I pointed-out your claim that Orion was more durable to justify in the first place.
Therefore, unless you're willing to admit that Superman(and also Orion) are just on a much higher level of strength than Wonder Woman, the only two explanations for Superman showing no improved performance against Orion compared to the Byrne era, is either Orion was amped too, or Superman's amp did not kick in until the JLA/Team Superman group struggled to restrain Superman. Good luck finding evidence for the first. And the second? The JLA didn't actually say anything about Superman was stronger than normal like you claimed. Plus, you'd have to find some explanation that it'd make sense that his boost was just waiting to kick in until AFTER he fought Orion. The only conclusion that makes sense is that Superman had no noticeable boost in this issue.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Again, something you did not acknowledge, but you seem to think there is nothing between Superman at normal power levels and Superman as this blazing "Firelord"-looking character pushing Pluto in Our Worlds at War. There are DEGREES of sun-amping. It isn't a case of either/or as you falsely portray. I'm sure OWAW sun-amped Superman WOULD waste Orion. But the fact that he isn't blazing like the Human Torch in MOT13 can in no way dismiss the fact that he IS enhanced beyond normal capablity, and his relative success against the Justice League IS consistent with that view.
Never said there weren't degrees of amping. Problem is, he'd have to be at least 5 times stronger than normal if we go by Diana, Martian Manhunter and Barda individually are from 80%-90% as strong as him, after factoring in leverage and the others. There was no mention he became stronger. He should no noticeable boost when he fought Orion. He'd have needed an even larger boost if you think Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter were stronger than him then too. He's not going to get that big a boost just by being in front of the Sun a few minutes.
So, what is it? Was Orion amped, Superman's amp for some reason didn't kick in until he was restrained, or Superman(and Orion) are just that far above Wonder Woman in strength?
Originally posted by Delta1938
Never said there weren't degrees of amping. Problem is, he'd have to be at least 5 times stronger than normal if we go by Diana, Martian Manhunter and Barda individually are from 80%-90% as strong as him, after factoring in leverage and the others. There was no mention he became stronger. He should no noticeable boost when he fought Orion. He'd have needed an even larger boost if you think Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter were stronger than him then too. He's not going to get that big a boost just by being in front of the Sun a few minutes.
Your math didn't make sense when you falsely claimed I said Superman was 40 times stronger.
And it doesn't make sense here, either.
How strong would Jonn Jonnz have had to have been in order to do what he does here by that kind of reasoning?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Your math didn't make sense when you falsely claimed I said Superman was 40 times stronger.
You clarified why the image had "40" in it's name. My math was unrelated to that. Considering Barda, J'Onn and Diana had help, and the leverage advantage, Superman would have to have at least a 5 times boost if he were only a little stronger than Diana, instead of MUCH stronger.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
And it doesn't make sense here, either.How strong would Jonn Jonnz have had to have been in order to do what he does here by that kind of reasoning?
How strong would J'Onn have to be to get punched, blasted and TACKLED? Strength is pretty much irrelevant here. Orion and Wonder Woman are just tackling him. Fail of an argument. If you're trying to spin this into J'Onn being so strong that Orion AND Wonder Woman are required to restrain him, then comparing Superman's performances to Orion, J'Onn alone would've been able to restrain Superman in MOT #13, and there would've been no problems with all the help he had. So a fail of an attempt to dance around the issue.
Answer the question. If Superman(and also Orion) isn't just on such a higher level of strength than Wonder Woman, was it Orion was amped too in his fight with Superman in MOT #13, or did Superman's boost not kick in until the JLA restrained him for some weird reason?
Why the dodge? It means you can't grasp at straws and say he was amped? Yes, yes it does.
At this point you're just proving my observation that you're dragging this out without providing HARD evidence because all you have is wishful thinking.
Note that Wonder Woman and Barda and Orion are among the members being effectively physically resisted in this group, too.
Did Jonn'z need to be at least 5 times stronger to do what HE did here?
Note, too, the date; roughly around the time of MOT13, which most of the showings of Superman's depowering are not.
By the way, most of what I'm being shown of depowering or sun failing to charge/re-charge was for a special storyline that ocurred post-MOT13, post-Sacrifice, and post-IC called "One Year Later".
That was practically the whole point OF that arc, Superman's power NOT acting as it normally does, and people trying to figure out why.
2006, if I remember right.
Not at all a counter for the MOT13 1999 episode from what I can see.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Martian Manhunter #7, Volume 2
Writer: John Ostrander
Penciller: Tom Mandrake
Date: June 1999
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Martian_Manhunter_Vol_2_7
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Note that Wonder Woman and Barda and Orion are among the members being effectively physically resisted in this group, too.Did Jonn'z need to be at least 5 times stronger to do what HE did here?
Too bad for you J'Onn has some really potent shape-shifting that's helping him there. Superman meanwhile, does not. Oh, and if you pay attention, J'Onn actually has help(although I know he's not aware of it) from Malefic. Malefic's the one dealing with Orion. So, this would only be a valid argument if Superman had shape-shifting and invisible help from his non-existent twin brother.
And it doesn't get around the question. Was Orion amped too in his fight with Superman in MOT #13, or did Superman somehow not have his boost kick-in until after the fight with Orion? Which one is it? If it's Orion was amped, prove it. If the boost didn't kick in, explain how that works. I'll help you. It's neither. He's simply on another level of strength than Wonder Woman.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Note, too, the date; roughly around the time of MOT13, which most of the showings of Superman's depowering are not.By the way, most of what I'm being shown of depowering or sun failing to charge/re-charge was for a special storyline that ocurred post-MOT13, post-Sacrifice, and post-IC called "One Year Later".
That was practically the whole point OF that arc, Superman's power NOT acting as it normally does, and people trying to figure out why.
2006, if I remember right.
Not at all a counter for the MOT13 1999 episode from what I can see.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Martian Manhunter #7, Volume 2
Writer: John Ostrander
Penciller: Tom Mandrake
Date: June 1999
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Martian_Manhunter_Vol_2_7
Aside from you trying to dismiss examples of Superman not immediately absorbing energy(which you're wrong, there's ones from the mid-90's in there as well, before MOT #13), I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you claiming Superman's been powered down? 'Cuz that's a BS claim that you can't back, and your only "evidence" is neither official power-down nor appears credible after someone pointed-out extenuating circumstances.
Here, probably my last submission for the day; I actually wrote this before sending the previous message:
Originally posted by Delta1938
At this point you're just proving my observation that you're dragging this out without providing HARD evidence because all you have is wishful thinking.
Again you jump the gun.
I hadn't even submitted the 2nd part of that showing.
Why do you think there was no reference information for that showing, if I was done?
As for hard evidence, concerning 2003-2011 Wonder Woman, you haven't demonstrated any, either. I doubt that you can. You're still mostly concentrating on the period BEFORE I outlined.
I will give you credit, though -- showing me that 1994 showing of Wonder Woman with that black hole, getting her hand cut, while even the sign her lasso was clinging to? I can definitely see where you got the opinion of Wonder Woman as inferior from.
Apparently, before Loeb's Supergirl arc, when I began reading DC again, she wasn't possessed of much physical prowess post COIE, post-Perez. At least to judge from that. Perhaps John Byrne is owed more thanks than I thought. A LOT more.
I'd have to review more from that era, though.
However, I never claimed she had much to offer during THAT period.
Golden Age? Surely.
Silver Age? Dicier, but still yes.
Bronze Age. Yes.
2003-2011? Definitely.
The "kneel before Max" grip of Sacrifice does nothing to prove your point to me.
Problem 1 is that Diana is trying to get answers at this point. Note that she doesn't attack Max when completely unencumbered, only tries to talk and reason with him.
Problem 2 is that in the preceding chapter, Diana is shown engaging Superman and getting her lasso around his neck.
For all your talk of superior strength, he is NOT able to break Diana's hold and instead must rely on a desperate smash to the bulkhead of that ship, creating an emergency that Diana must deal with to save Bruce. Significantly, Superman also does NOT try to fight the JLA while Wonder Woman is present, but instead waits until she is gone before acting. Would MOT13 Superman have felt the need to do that?
Regarding Abhi, you're wasting your time.
I said what I would do in his case, and you can find my earlier statement.
Why you're trying to twist that into I don't like HIM when HE attacked me, and several times, I have no idea.
In retrospect, I probably should have reported him; even P.R. told him he was out of line and still he persisted.
If you want his arguments brought forth, you can present them as your own. I said I would not directly respond to him in lieu of an apology, and I meant it. Any responses that seem to be direct responses to him are coincidence.
There is a basic line of civility that should be maintained no matter disagreements or personal views. Abhi's not some child, to judge from the age listed in his profile, who can't control the words that come out of his mouth or the text typed by his fingers.
If you want to know the truth, after giving him ample opportunity to make amends, I simply used the board feature to screen out his comments. It's not necessary for me to interact with such people.
Salsa proves a discussion can be civil without being abusive.
You yourself mentioned he brought forth better material than you.
I agree. Salsa's showings, suggesting IN STORY deus ex machina, not wanton editorial decisions ...
Unexpected. Hard to counter and insightful.
Got some things in mind for that, but, man ...
I'll see what Salsa has to offer in the days to come.
In the meantime, though I'll probably give your entries consideration, there ARE some things I said I would present in this thread, and, to the best of my knowledge, I've KEPT my word at every point in this thread, and I want to fulfill the rest of my promise if I'm able.
Free time isn't QUITE as plentiful for me as it seems to be for you, though, so stuff will appear as my schedule permits.
A sincere thank you for your scans, though.
No matter what you believe of me, no true comic-loving fan can fail to appreciate the wealth of free material you're sharing.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Take a look again.AGAIN you prove you're not taking the time to consider what's put before you, this time ignoring onscreen visual evidence.
I had actually taken more than one look the first time. In fact, another look is why I edited my post to add that Malefic's helping. And I just looked at it again. Several times. Now the only change I have is Malefic is helping J'Onn with Orion. See how Orion's got 2 arms and a leg wrapped? And at least one of those sure looks to be Malefic. Even if I'm wrong, it's still not like you and Aquaman cracking the Imperiex Probe's hand.
If you were arguing Aquaman actually cracks the material the Probe is made of, nothing supports that. If you're talking about breaking the grip off him, no biggie. It's cut-off from it's energy source so it's inanimate, and I don't think Aquaman would have a problem with that.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Here, probably my last submission for the day; I actually wrote this before sending the previous message:Again you jump the gun.
I hadn't even submitted the 2nd part of that showing.
Why do you think there was no reference information for that showing, if I was done?
15 minutes is an awful lot of time to make your following post, especially with how relatively small both it and the first were. This is why you should get a Photobucket account for sharing your images like everybody else. It'd be easier, quicker, you wouldn't have to crop the scans, and it wouldn't take you 79 gazillion 33 bazillion and 7 posts to show a single page. Oh yes, and you can do bulk uploading with Photobucket. Choose several images at once to upload instead of having to do them individually. I know the whole concern about losing all of it if the hosting site goes down, but with how many users Photobucket has, how long it's been around, and that it's the official(or whatever the phrase was) site/service Twitter recognizes or integrates or whatever, I don't think it'll be going any time soon. You'll be much happier with that than what you're doing on here. I urge you to join the 21st century of convenience.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As for hard evidence, concerning 2003-2011 Wonder Woman, you haven't demonstrated any, either. I doubt that you can. You're still mostly concentrating on the period BEFORE I outlined.
No, I have. You haven't been paying attention. This, you dispute.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=WonderWomanv221905.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=WonderWomanv221906.jpg
She failed to break his rape-choke, despite using a technique that allows a victim to break the grip of a STRONGER attacker. You try to explain it away as you doubt the writer had Krav Maga in mind when writing this scene. But to dismiss things like "leverage advantage" and stronger muscle groups to say it's not evidence(well, it's not; it's outright proof) of superior strength would be like saying Character A failing to knock-out Character Z with his stronger punch doesn't count, because flicking your finger is a far more powerful strike than an overhand right. Whether you like it or not, this is Superman shown MUCH stronger than Wonder Woman. And this is from 2005. And it's worth noting that the fact that he so easily overwhelmed her with speed, and overpowered her, if he had been given the illusion that she had killed Lois, instead of it being Doomsday and making Superman think she was Doomsday, he likely would've wanted her dead quickly instead of to suffer first. Meaning, the fight would've been pretty similar to this.
I also posted this.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman25-0203.jpg
This one's to get a clear view of everyone involved.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman25-04.jpg
Supergirl required the help of Power Girl, Cir-El, Linda Danvers and what appears to be(at least in style/personality; actual power is never really shown) a Silver Age Kara Zor-El. By Diana's own admission, Power Girl is at minimum equal to Wonder Woman in strength. "At least" certainly implies PeeGee's stronger. So, someone at least as strong as Wonder Woman, if not stronger, and 3 others, was required to help Supergirl pull Superman from The Source Wall. What happened when Superman had a similar task?
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman24-01.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=SupermanBatman24-0203.jpg
He did it on his own. These are from early issues of SUPERMAN/BATMAN, a title that started mid/late 2003.
We also have this.
Power Girl, who as mentioned previously, by Diana's own admission, is at minimum equal to Wonder Woman in strength, fails to restrain Superman despite numerous others also trying to, including Martian Manhunter, someone else you think(at least last I checked) is stronger than Superman. This is probably from around 2006 or so. Since it's also from SUPERMAN/BATMAN, it's definitely in that time frame.
Haven't shown this one here(but did on the DC boards a year and a half ago or so), but Salsa has. It's from 2005(or late 2004).
I know on the DC boards you tried to justify it doesn't count, but it does count. He caught her punch while he was rather calm.
And the thing is though, this is just comparative strength examples I'm showing. I haven't even included a single feat of strength. Two examples I can think of off the top of my head from about 2008 blow away ANYTHING I've seen from Wonder Woman do on her own, including scans I've seen you post for her from the Golden Age. In fact, even if you include her shared feats, these two are much more impressive than all but the slowing Spectre down, and they're both still more impressive, just not blowing you out of the water impressive. Oh, and considering that Diana had help from Superman from her best feat ever, and Superman's got better feats than that(including solo), that disqualifies the Spectre instance from being used.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I will give you credit, though -- showing me that 1994 showing of Wonder Woman with that black hole, getting her hand cut, while even the sign her lasso was clinging to? I can definitely see where you got the opinion of Wonder Woman as inferior from.
Actually, that was merely in response to you claiming she's better suited to deal with black holes. He did better than you showed against a likely comparable black hole in a YEAR ONE story, was fine through a wormhole(two black holes connected last I checked) and was moving around in a "double black hole" whatever that is. Two examples from before your relatively bad showing for Superman and black holes, and one after. I'd have to say the miniature red sun that Oblivion made likely played a part in it, considering his previous and later performances against them. I think you also tried to claim that the red sun wasn't a factor until AFTER the black hole was made. Buuuut, unless I'm mistaken, Oblivion created the red sun specifically to deal with Superman, then later turned the red sun into the black hole. Soooooooooo, the one time she looks superior to him against a black hole has extenuating circumstances, and the only other time she's dealt with one, she definitely didn't look good. No, Superman's the better equipped one for them.
But the reason I know she's inferior to him is because that's how it's been from day one of Post-CRISIS continuity, without extenuating circumstances, and you haven't shown any hard evidence proving otherwise. I on the other hand have indeed included examples showing he's stronger from the very period you keep claiming she's stronger from, but can't provide one iota of evidence. The only real argument, that was anything close to logical, was your inaccurate belief that he had been powered-down since the moving Earth example, which you provided faulty and apparently misleading evidence for, and she'd been powered-up since that example, something you provided no evidence for at all. One example that you thought she'd gotten more durable, but no examples at all of her actually being stronger. Nor were you aware of an official power-up. Or even knew what it meant. And still didn't know of any official power-ups after you learned what it meant. And based on this thread, you forgot what it means after I explained it to you.
(TO BE CONTINUED)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Apparently, before Loeb's Supergirl arc, when I began reading DC again, she wasn't possessed of much physical prowess post COIE, post-Perez. At least to judge from that. Perhaps John Byrne is owed more thanks than I thought. A LOT more.
Isn't the entire claim you're making for Pre-DCnU Wonder Woman being stronger than Superman is from the 2003-2011 period? ummmm Loeb brought back Supergirl in I believe the second storyline he did for SUPERMAN/BATMAN. A title that's first issue was cover dated October 2003. The modern Kara's first appearance according to Wikipedia was in 2004, she stuck around for at least an entire story arch in SUPERMAN/BATMAN before Loeb started that run for SUPERGIRL I think in late 2005. So, are you saying that Wonder Woman didn't possess much physical prowess Post-CRISIS in the first couple of years you're saying she's stronger than Superman?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'd have to review more from that era, though.
However, I never claimed she had much to offer during THAT period.Golden Age? Surely.
Silver Age? Dicier, but still yes.
Bronze Age. Yes.
2003-2011? Definitely.
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you trying to say that she's stronger than him in these eras? If so, prove it. Are you saying that you don't have many examples to show from these eras? What exactly do you mean?
If you're saying you're lacking on material to show due to her having fewer appearances, that's not a good argument. I believe you gave-up on the Golden Age strength showings because Superman had a head-start on top of appearing in more titles than Wonder Woman, so it was "unfair." This type of thing is a complete and utter cop-out, and an excuse to justify one's stance despite lack of evidence. If Wonder Woman was stronger than Superman without extenuating circumstances, in any era, you'd be able to prove it even if there's not much evidence. Spider-Man and Batman have way, way more appearances than Gladiator, but that doesn't change the fact that I can casually show he's stronger than them against an ocean of strength feats someone can provide for either. Of course, if you think that's an extreme and inaccurate example, because they're Street Level, I can use Thing. Thing has far more appearances than Gladiator, but all it'd take is showing one of 2 feats or 3 fights to show he's stronger.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The "kneel before Max" grip of Sacrifice does nothing to prove your point to me.
Problem 1 is that Diana is trying to get answers at this point. Note that she doesn't attack Max when completely unencumbered, only tries to talk and reason with him.
Maybe you don't think it does, but that's pretty irrelevant since it's one of only four or so RELATIVE strength showings I previously gave you(through-out the thread; not the fifth or so in this post) from the time period you've been specifying.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Problem 2 is that in the preceding chapter, Diana is shown engaging Superman and getting her lasso around his neck.
For all your talk of superior strength, he is NOT able to break Diana's hold and instead must rely on a desperate smash to the bulkhead of that ship, creating an emergency that Diana must deal with to save Bruce.
I'm going to think that the illusion's he's being put through have a little something to do with it. He didn't even see her when she was in front of him, but was only aware AT ALL that she was there when she wrapped the lasso around him. Considering how focused on his task he was and his state of mind, he very well could've been oblivious to who or what she was. But for the not being able to break her hold, HORRIBLE example. She had an unbreakable garrote around his neck. Even Superboy Prime couldn't break her lasso last I checked. It was like he was being rear-naked choked, only worse. Do you think that the guys being choked here are bigger and stronger than their opponents?
Choker: Don Frye. Not sure of what he was at the time, but he's barely a Heavyweight now, about 210 lbs. or so.
Chokee: David "Tank" Abbott. Again, not sure of what he was at the time, but nowadays he's 255 lbs. And this is from the early UFC days, where I think he was over 300 lbs.(not sure though).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXagapSPM0E
Starts at 2 mins 19 seconds. And unless you like vocals that sound like a gorilla's being raped, I suggest you mute it.
Choker: Hidehiko Yoshida. 225 lbs.
Chokee: Again, Tank Abbott.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1d_XS5BvnM
Starts around 1 min 30 seconds.
So yeah, fail argument there. Confused Superman being choked by mystically unbreakable garrote from behind and he can't get her off him? Nowhere near when she couldn't break his grip during the rape-choke. I can't believe you think that's actually a legitimate argument, but the rape-choke overpowering isn't.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Significantly, Superman also does NOT try to fight the JLA while Wonder Woman is present, but instead waits until she is gone before acting. Would MOT13 Superman have felt the need to do that?
Him waiting for Diana to leave couldn't have anything to do with the fact that Batman is critically injured, she's the one carrying him, and is going to take him to get medical care, could it? 'Cuz, ya know, he could've ended-up hurting Bruce more, not just kept him from getting medical attention sooner.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Regarding Abhi, you're wasting your time.
I said what I would do in his case, and you can find my earlier statement.
Why you're trying to twist that into I don't like HIM when HE attacked me, and several times, I have no idea.
In retrospect, I probably should have reported him; even P.R. told him he was out of line and still he persisted.
🤨 😑😕 Where did I ever say you disliked him for no reason?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If you want his arguments brought forth, you can present them as your own.I said I would not directly respond to him in lieu of an apology, and I meant it. Any responses that seem to be direct responses to him are coincidence.
There is a basic line of civility that should be maintained no matter disagreements or personal views. Abhi's not some child, to judge from the age listed in his profile, who can't control the words that come out of his mouth or the text typed by his fingers.
If you want to know the truth, after giving him ample opportunity to make amends, I simply used the board feature to screen out his comments. It's not necessary for me to interact with such people.
I know at least some of his posts with evidence and arguments that hurt your case came before the last time you responded to him, which I figure is about the time you blocked him. Whether he was nice or not doesn't change the fact that he produced arguments and evidence that you wish didn't exist. And I have included some of the arguments/points he's brought-up, like the scan of Power Girl, J'Onn, Kilowog and others failing to restrain Superman. Also, I should note. That Superwoman KOing Superman scan you're so found-of? If you missed it, abhi exposed it. She was sucker-punching Superman, on top of everything being whacky and powers being messed with. So the only evidence you have ever presented of Post-Golden Age/Pre-CRISIS Wonder Woman being stronger than Superman wasn't even Wonder Woman, and is invalid due to multiple extenuating circumstances.
But in all reality, whether you were offended or not, it just seems that you ignoring him is just a justification to avoid his points and arguments. There's so many things that you've dodged and danced around and outright ignored just from me. Very few of my points you've acknowledged, and what you have is clearly grasping at straws to go, "Nuh UHHH!! Doesn't count!!" and dismiss the proof you don't like. I never said abhi was nice, but the few posts he did argue are more impressive arguments and evidence than everything you've done in this thread, and back on the DC boards. COMBINED.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa proves a discussion can be civil without being abusive.
You yourself mentioned he brought forth better material than you.I agree. Salsa's showings, suggesting IN STORY deus ex machina, not wanton editorial decisions ...
Unexpected. Hard to counter and insightful.
Are you talking about Superman's mind regulating his powers? Yeah, I had also made a mention of that and showed a scan, of Batman talking about it.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Misc/?action=view¤t=06.jpg
And a couple of examples to really show it are from OUR WORLDS AT WAR.
Here, Superman can't crack the Imperiex Probe with his strikes, and cracks it by variation of heat vision and freeze breath.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Imperiex%20Probes/2-Vs%20Imperiex%20Probe/
And here, we have him one-shotting them on two separate occasions once striking another heat vision.
In one of those scans in that album, we also have mention of him being "fully unleashed."
(TO BE CONTINUED)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Got some things in mind for that, but, man ...
I'll see what Salsa has to offer in the days to come.
Well, a problem is you're not even being clear on your arguments. You're bringing-up so many things that are completely irrelevant about who's stronger, not only to common sense, but typical rules on VS forums. It's scans or at least referenced examples of fights and feats that count, not discussion about conceptional themes and origins and background and stuff that isn't actually part of the fight.
And you actually appear to think that her feats from the Golden Age count for TODAY. They do not. They only count for the Golden Age. And it's too bad for you that Superman was stronger back then, too. I noticed you made a big deal about making sure it was known that the commonly known feats Superman pulled-off then were either matched or exceeded by Wonder Woman. It seems though you're just thinking of comparing his common stuff to everything she's done. The very fact that he created a sun by throwing stuff into each other proves he's stronger than her, as her towing a Sun was the best you ever gave for her back then.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In the meantime, though I'll probably give your entries consideration, there ARE some things I said I would present in this thread, and, to the best of my knowledge, I've KEPT my word at every point in this thread, and I want to fulfill the rest of my promise if I'm able.
I'm still waiting for hard evidence. I've given you comparative/relative strength examples that support him being MUCH stronger than her from the time period you're citing and haven't even included actual feats. Also waiting for you to explain the Orion thing. If Superman(and Orion) isn't simply on a much higher level of strength than Wonder Woman, either Orion was amped in that fight too, or for some reason his amp didn't kick-in until after the fight with Orion. The first you'd have to prove, the second makes no sense.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Free time isn't QUITE as plentiful for me as it seems to be for you, though, so stuff will appear as my schedule permits.
That's another thing. I notice you spend more time finding videos and scans to try and justify/counter/dismiss the hard evidence and arguments presented to you than actually, ya know, giving real examples for what you're claiming. It's like you have little to nothing, and you're hoping you can convince everybody that all their examples that prove the opposite of what you wish were true don't count, then when the examples are exhausted you'll bring-up one or two examples and hope that "proves" your case. It'd make sense considering that you also spend more time talking about irrelevant factors that you think matter, but don't count to most people on who's stronger, than actually providing evidence. I mean, Hell. I know Salsa has almost, if not all, every DC comic Post-CRISIS up to DCnU. He's likely got most, if not all, of Wonder Woman's appearances. If you actually have examples If he doesn't have the ti
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
A sincere thank you for your scans, though.
No matter what you believe of me, no true comic-loving fan can fail to appreciate the wealth of free material you're sharing.
You're welcome.
Been considering what you've said about organization.
Some validity to it, some not.
I've come to the conclusion that really great organization can come to this thread only gradually except through the most extraordinary effort. Given that this thread was around for MORE than 24 months and no one gave a second thought, I'm not concerned about imposing it in one post. For starters, I don't think it possible.
KMC size limits, and here I'm talking about TEXT, wouldn't allow me to address everything you claim to want addressed. "Hard" evidence, despite what you may think, doesn't exist for either character for the period I'm talking about.
Not of the kind you seem to suggest, but do not actually show.
You lightly dismiss feats that are relatively objective such as the world moving feat and lowering of Spectre's great weight but Superman's failure at lesser ones, for instance, as essentially, "He wasn't trying, he has mental problems that limit his power in some situations", and "back in the past, he's done greater things. We can dismiss the things Wonder Woman has done in her past, but the things Superman has done in his past, those are valid".
Note I am talking about "you" collectively, if for no other reason than that you frame the arguments of others as something you've wanted addressed, too, including Salsa and one other.
I CAN address the bulk of those, and, given time and opportunity, I will.
Let me talk as plainly as possible without being overly rude and insulting.
You seem to think it invalid to prove a point by pointing out that all the arguments against said point are crap. That's not so. In fact, it's one of the standards used in schools and colleges and universities.
Even has formal names:
1. Proof by contradiction.
2. Proof by contrapositive.
3. Reductio ad absurdum.
No dancing here. No dodging. That's the reality.
I've said EXACTLY what I intended to cover in this thread, and said so repeatedly, and gone about doing precisely that.
Show me where I've violated anything I've said in this thread.
I'd be interested to see if anyone could justly make that claim, for I think I've been fairly consistent; nearly everything you've seen in this thread is something I expressly stated I would do.
I'm genuinely interested to see if there's any sort of contradiction on my part of the type already seen in others on here, including yourself.
I think part of the problem is that people are not used to having real discussion here. If you want to see if your ideas are sound, do you take them to other people who think exactly like YOU do?
I'm thinking, if you want to give honest examination to a thing, you take it to an audience who is AGAINST your position and see what they have to offer. That, too, by the way, is consistent with the way schools, colleges, and universities conduct business. Might be a whole lot different here. I don't know. If so, however, I would point out that this is NOT a typical versus thread on a KMC versus board. It is a discussion thread on a discussion forum. Different rules here and I don't think I'm violating any of them from what I've read, nor do I get the sense of urgency you seem to have over a thread that is now in ... what? Its 25th month? I've only been here for about 2. Less than 1/10th of its time. And I daresay I've brought more accurate information relevant to this thread and what the original poster actually ASKED people in his opening posts that any other person participating, including Salsa and P.R.
