The SB13 Darkseid engagement.
Scan 3 of 8.
Note that I made mention before of Wonder Woman offering help in the fight. SIGNIFICANT help, to judge from past Superman encounters with Darkseid. If you're providing scans, showing the episode of Darkseid conceding defeat to Superman after getting hit with his own Omega Beams (back in Byrne's run, I believe?) then boom-tubing him away, would be appreciated.
By the way, Salsa, this shows one counter to your earlier premise of Superman coming at Diana with speed and firing off heat vision.
How to protect against the combination?
Reflect those beams right back at him! Note that this is precisely what Wonder Woman does here, even as Cassie did the same thing to the Superboy clone "Match", even as she earlier did to effectively ELIMINATE one of the killer Superman robots that may have been the unit responsible for Donna Troy's death.
The SB13 Darkseid engagement.
Scan 7 of 8.
Salsa, you earlier alluded to other reasons for Superman opting for Yellow Sol Arena?
I can think of several.
1. Charges and increases Superman's power.
2. Features a gravity well that can effectively trap most non-flying opponents.
(I note with interest that the makers of the Superman/Batman Apocalypse movie equipped Darkseid with self-enabled FLIGHT to make him a more credible and capable threat to Blue for the re-enactment of this encounter.)
3. SEVERELY stresses an opponent by it's very nature: blindingly bright, airless, gravity-rough, and, of course, hellishly, excruciatingly, hot.
The SB13 Darkseid engagement.
Scan 8 of 8.
Some stream-of-conscious about the selection just shown:
-- Darkseid, notably, shows damage in the previous scan EXACTLY where Wonder Woman reflected his own Omega Beams back at him.
-- Darkseid did not offer physical retaliation after getting "boomerang-ed" like that until he and Superman were just about at the sun's surface.
(After which point, of course, Superman would be getting stronger and stronger every minute. Because that is more or less the standard definition of how his power, post-Crisis, generally works.)
-- Superman apparently keeps "Boom Tube" technology on his person?
Or did for this arc? Or knows where Darkseid keeps his? Maybe kept the one Barda used for the group an issue or so prior on extended loan?
-- Darkseid was imprisoned in the Source Wall. Or ... was he?
There are several avatars of him running around at several points in comic history. As well as Desaad impersonating him. And he's apparently had more than one trip here.
-- Darkseid possesses strength which may or may not be greater than or equal to Superman level strength. Apparently, at least here, he does not possess flight. Superman does possess flight to go along with high-level strength. But Superman is later trapped in the Source Wall by Darkseid and is every bit as helpless as Darkseid proves to free HIMself.
The Source Wall doesn't seem to operate under standard comicbook physics.
-- Superman is capable of telling complete untruths and lies.
He does so here. He tells Darkseid of all the things Kara will never do because of Darkseid, all the while knowing Kara was safely teleported AWAY from Darkseid's Omega Beams, saving her life.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman/Batman #13, Volume 1
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciller: Michael Turner
Date: October 2004
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman/Batman_Vol_1_13
Salsa,
Alluded to in the previous post, the Source Wall isn't a traditional sort of strength challenge.
Were it so, and Superman as strong as you suggest the incident portrays, shouldn't he have been able to free himself?
But you know as well as I do he cannot, anymore than Darkseid was able to.
--BUT--
For the sake of argument, let's treat this as a standard strength feat, going just on what you showed before in your scans.
5 Karas. 4 apparently ram into, or maybe even headbutt, the Source Wall section Superman is trapped in from different angles, pinballing off saying "Ouch!" on their deflection. Loeb's 2004 Kara, meanwhile, yanks her cousin free with one good, effortful tug.
Again, judgining from the scans you posted or let remain in your album.
I don't remember reading anything contrary to that in the actual magazine, but do not have it here to confirm or deny.
Going from that, however, I must point out that, in contrast to Superman, Kara has only ONE panel of seemingly brief exertion.
Superman takes about FIVE to do his chore, however, and sweats and struggles.
Going from your scans, no one pulls on Superman save 2004 Kara; the others just "ram". Maybe that is necessary to prevent anyone else from getting trapped? Again, I don't know the physics comic-writers have governing the Source Wall.
I would also point out, besides the fact that Superman has long hard struggle, while Kara's is easy, it would make no sense, having been guided by Bizarro to recruit all those others, for Kara not to make use of her new "friends" for the rescue.
I thought of the following actually:
2 teenage girls help lift burning car off trapped man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xRgG8lgVG4
(1 min 56 sec)
... to which the counter is, or might be,
"None of those girls by themselves could have lifted that car solo",
and it might be right; but the point is only that, if there ARE other helpers present in crisis, they generally help out once they've collectively decided to DO something about the crisis, they don't just generally stand around watching someone else.
More than this, however, besides the greater effort it takes Superman, but not his cousin, and besides the fact the Source Wall is not a straightforward strength task to begin with, I would also point out that Bizarro is generally considered ABOVE Superman himself in terms of pure physical strength.
However, an issue or two before this one, Bizarro is lightly sent away by Kara, knocking him through the walls of her room on Paradise Island and into the sea, even as Bizarro thinks to himself, albeit IN BIZARROspeak, that Kara is as strong as he himself is, a point definitely NOT in the Man of Steel's favor if conventional wisdom of the time (ie that Bizarro is stronger than Superman) is correct.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Been considering what you've said about organization.Some validity to it, some not.
I've come to the conclusion that really great organization can come to this thread only gradually except through the most extraordinary effort. Given that this thread was around for MORE than 24 months and no one gave a second thought, I'm not concerned about imposing it in one post. For starters, I don't think it possible.
KMC size limits, and here I'm talking about TEXT, wouldn't allow me to address everything you claim to want addressed.
It'd be so much better for you to get a Photobucket(or get back on one you may already have) and just use that. Yes, it doesn't mean that you'll get EVERYTHING you want in one post, but it'll make things far, far easier. As you'll see, I'll include an entire fight, including 2 pages you didn't include, with ONE LINK, instead of 8 separate posts it took you. Even if you want to go page-by-page with commentary, it still doesn't require you to post individually for each single page, or worse-yet, panel. I figure what would take you a dozen posts to do, you could compile down to 3 at most if you used Photobucket. Please, just please do that.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
"Hard" evidence, despite what you may think, doesn't exist for either character for the period I'm talking about.
Considering the things you think somehow count for who's stronger, this is a blatantly incorrect statement. I've already shown both direct and indirect examples showing him to be stronger, yes from the time period you're referring to, by comparative strength, not including feats from this time period.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not of the kind you seem to suggest, but do not actually show.
Except, I do show what I point-out counts. Haven't for straight-up feats yet, unless you count The Source Wall, but that I was specifically posting for comparison. Not as a straight feat.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You lightly dismiss feats that are relatively objective such as the world moving feat and lowering of Spectre's great weight
Actually, no. What I said is those can't be used to argue she's stronger than Superman, 'cuz, Superman's there too with the feat. No matter how much you wish, Superman wasn't powered-downed/weakened/whatever. Unless you can provide an actual example where the storyline permanently reduced his power? Like a reverse version of this.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Lobo/MOS%2030/
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
--but Superman's failure at lesser ones, for instance, as essentially, "He wasn't trying, he has mental problems that limit his power in some situations", and "back in the past, he's done greater things. We can dismiss the things Wonder Woman has done in her past, but the things Superman has done in his past, those are valid".
Well I'm not. I'm pointing-out the fact that he actually subconsciously regulates his powers as a reason why he appears to have peers and near-equals then BAM!!, shows to be much stronger than those, or as strong or even stronger as several combined. But even if that were the case, what excuse does Wonder Woman have when she looks bad?
Also, just because you think he's been powered-up and she's been powered-down doesn't mean the moving Earth and all that can be used against Superman. You've shown proof of neither. The only evidence I've seen that Superman's been powered down is pretty poor an argument, since there was nothing official. Wonder Woman had apparently had an official power-up under Byrne, by the time she struggled to support a bridge. A feat I find less impressive than the knocking away that giant under Perez. So, she got less powerful by having a power-up? Plus, abhi's mentioned that there's extenuating circumstances you leave-out regarding the Callisto incident. So, at best for you, it's simply an example of a writer seeing Superman's actual level of power, but not necessarily ranking in hierarchy, as lower than those having him do insane feats. A little worse for you is the writer simply wanted to throw-in dramatic tension. At worst for you, it had extenuating circumstances, thus is a horrible argument.
But what about things like you don't accept Diana unable to break his rape-choke, yet you think that somehow strangling a confused Superman from behind with an unbreakable garrote is a showing of superior strength? Or you actually think that Superman waiting for her to teleport out is a sign that she's stronger, and never thought to factor in he wanted her to get the critically injured Batman to SAFETY AND MEDICAL ATTENTION? Diana almost never engaging Titus aside from using the lasso compared to Superman is more convincing an argument that he's stronger than her thank your argument about him waiting for her to get the hurt Batman out of there before fighting the JLA. And I believe it's from the 2003-2011 period you're arguing, but not showing anything. Oh yeah, and his punch was also more effective against Titus than her FLYING KICK. When Titus was taking simultaneous energy attacks from Superman and Martian Manhunter.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Note I am talking about "you" collectively, if for no other reason than that you frame the arguments of others as something you've wanted addressed, too, including Salsa and one other.
Some of them, I'd argue regardless of if they were brought-up or not, and am merely pointing-out others since I wasn't the one to say it first in the thread. Others, I hadn't thought of myself, but saw good points that you've failed to address.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I CAN address the bulk of those, and, given time and opportunity, I will.
Considering it's taken you like a year and a half(if we include the DC boards) to not actually have any real evidence, and you spend more time looking for videos and scans to try and explain away evidence instead of compiling your own, I have a feeling it'd take eternity for you to.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[B]Let me talk as plainly as possible without being overly rude and insulting.You seem to think it invalid to prove a point by pointing out that all the arguments against said point are crap. That's not so. In fact, it's one of the standards used in schools and colleges and universities.
Even has formal names:
1. Proof by contradiction.
2. Proof by contrapositive.
3. Reductio ad absurdum.No dancing here. No dodging. That's the reality.
I've said EXACTLY what I intended to cover in this thread, and said so repeatedly, and gone about doing precisely that.
If saying exactly what you've intended to cover here is not showing any real evidence, but putting forth a plethora of opinions that are irrelevant to how strong one is, what that says to me is, "I have the opinion that Wonder Woman is stronger, but I have no evidence to support this. So I have to manufacture evidence by bringing-in irrelevant topics that I somehow can spin into APPEARING relevant."
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[B]Show me where I've violated anything I've said in this thread.
I'd be interested to see if anyone could justly make that claim, for I think I've been fairly consistent; nearly everything you've seen in this thread is something I expressly stated I would do.
I'd have to go through and see. But that's not what's important. What's important is hard evidence.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[B]I'm genuinely interested to see if there's any sort of contradiction on my part of the type already seen in others on here, including yourself.
I'm curious what these contradictions I've done are. Especially considering how completely off you were on understanding some things I had meant, such as the black hole thing from 1994.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[B]I think part of the problem is that people are not used to having real discussion here. If you want to see if your ideas are sound, do you take them to other people who think exactly like YOU do?
No, the big problem is, we're waiting for actual evidence. Everything you've covered doesn't mean much. Unless you think Wonder Woman's Golden Age feats count for her strength level today, as it did seem to be the case, but you neither confirmed nor denied when I asked. If that is the case, A: You're wrong, they don't count to today, and B: If they did, Superman's counts too, and he beats her there too.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[B]I'm thinking, if you want to give honest examination to a thing, you take it to an audience who is AGAINST your position and see what they have to offer. That, too, by the way, is consistent with the way schools, colleges, and universities conduct business. Might be a whole lot different here. I don't know.
You seem like either someone who's EXTREMELY naive, or never been on the Internet.
(TO BE CONTINUED)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If so, however, I would point out that this is NOT a typical versus thread on a KMC versus board. It is a discussion thread on a discussion forum. Different rules here and I don't think I'm violating any of them from what I've read,
While technically true, this is still the same type of thread I typically see moved to VS forums. But the rules I referred to were regarding what matters as evidence. Unsubstantiated opinion will always lose-out to scans and issue references. You've most certainly turned it into a Who's Stronger? argument, whether you intended to or not.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[B]--nor do I get the sense of urgency you seem to have over a thread that is now in ... what? Its 25th month? I've only been here for about 2. Less than 1/10th of its time. And I daresay I've brought more accurate information relevant to this thread and what the original poster actually ASKED people in his opening posts that any other person participating, including Salsa and P.R.
I wouldn't say that. There were quite a few fights you were missing.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Now, one thing I promised I would provide, opportunity permitting, was the SB13 battle against Darkseid. That was a long time ago. I gave no time limit, but I consider it important to keep my word, so now ...
Remember how earlier I talked about how Photobucket would let you post the entire fight a lot more easily? Well looky looky!!
10 pages, not just 8 like you had, with one link. Even if I posted all the scans individually, still wouldn't take me 10 separate posts.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The SB13 Darkseid engagement.Scan 3 of 8.
Note that I made mention before of Wonder Woman offering help in the fight. SIGNIFICANT help, to judge from past Superman encounters with Darkseid.
It SEEMS significant to you, because you thought it meant instant death to Superman. But I showed numerous examples of Superman enduring them before, including multiple, Point-Blank range to little effect, with Darkseid having the intention to kill Superman. In fact, looking at Superman's reaction here--
--yelling at her to stay out of it, and throwing her out of the barn(note he grabs her by the arm, then we see her flying through the barn's roof), I'd say he might've been hurt, but wouldn't have been seriously harmed.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If you're providing scans, showing the episode of Darkseid conceding defeat to Superman after getting hit with his own Omega Beams (back in Byrne's run, I believe?) then boom-tubing him away, would be appreciated.
It's possible I have the comic, as I have a handful from that era I haven't read yet, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you have an issue reference? The only example I know of with Superman facing Darkseid under Byrne either was retconned so it was actually Dessad posing as Darkseid, or it was Dessad the entire time. But whatever the case, this would be the only time I've seen Darkseid hit with his own Omega Beams and give-up if it happened, compared to at least two other examples of him not retreating when hit with them.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
By the way, Salsa, this shows one counter to your earlier premise of Superman coming at Diana with speed and firing off heat vision.
How to protect against the combination?
Reflect those beams right back at him! Note that this is precisely what Wonder Woman does here, even as Cassie did the same thing to the Superboy clone "Match", even as she earlier did to effectively ELIMINATE one of the killer Superman robots that may have been the unit responsible for Donna Troy's death.
I think I know what Salsa was referring to.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=AC702SUPERSPEEDANDHV.jpg
One of Salsa's scans, I had the individual file on my HD, so I had to upload that, 'cuz I can't find the examples Salsa's uploaded. But there's a few others, even more impressive.
But anyways, Wonder Woman teleporting in via JLA teleporter and blocking an unprepared Darkseid firing the Omega Beams isn't exactly a good counter argument to Superman doing a Heat Vision Speedblitz. At best for her, she'd simply be able to pull-off protecting against a diversionary tactic. As we see here, she's only able to block a few pulses, certainly not something like Superman did in the scan above, before he grabs her and overpowers her.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=WonderWomanv221904.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=WonderWomanv221905.jpg
Despite what you want to stick to from that issue of JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, Superman is faster than her, yes, in combat speed. He's got the feats to back it up, she does not.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The SB13 Darkseid engagement.Scan 7 of 8.
Salsa, you earlier alluded to other reasons for Superman opting for Yellow Sol Arena?
I can think of several.
1. Charges and increases Superman's power.
2. Features a gravity well that can effectively trap most non-flying opponents.
(I note with interest that the makers of the Superman/Batman Apocalypse movie equipped Darkseid with self-enabled FLIGHT to make him a more credible and capable threat to Blue for the re-enactment of this encounter.)3. SEVERELY stresses an opponent by it's very nature: blindingly bright, airless, gravity-rough, and, of course, hellishly, excruciatingly, hot.
Or, maybe, just MAYBE, he wanted to really teach Darkseid a lesson, because, even if Superman knew he didn't actually, he intended to kill Kara and then GLOATED when he thought he did. Being adopted myself, I can tell you the emotional importance of biological family you barely know. And I'm not the last human living amongst a different species. Superman's been able to match as well as beat Darkseid before hand-to-hand without being amped by the Sun.
I did notice the Darkseid flying too(rewatched it Sunday actually). Looked more like directional hovering than true flight. My guess is some Apokoliptian device, but that is just speculation.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The SB13 Darkseid engagement.Scan 8 of 8.
Some stream-of-conscious about the selection just shown:
-- Darkseid, notably, shows damage in the previous scan EXACTLY where Wonder Woman reflected his own Omega Beams back at him.
He sure didn't look like he was enjoying Superman's first punch, so not really an argument ya got here.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
-- Darkseid did not offer physical retaliation after getting "boomerang-ed" like that until he and Superman were just about at the sun's surface.
(After which point, of course, Superman would be getting stronger and stronger every minute. Because that is more or less the standard definition of how his power, post-Crisis, generally works.)
Probably because Superman didn't give him the chance to do anything. First time Superman's charging, he's going at an unspecified speed, but not too fast for Darkseid to react to. Second time Superman charges him, he goes much, much faster than light. Since light takes about 8 and a half minutes(roughly, not an exact time) to travel the distance between Earth and the Sun, and Superman takes Darkseid there in the span of a monologue. Unless you're going to argue that Superman was talking really, REALLY slowly?
(TO BE CONTINUED)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
-- Superman apparently keeps "Boom Tube" technology on his person?
Or did for this arc? Or knows where Darkseid keeps his? Maybe kept the one Barda used for the group an issue or so prior on extended loan?
The whole fight here was planned to trick Darkseid. I don't see why Superman wouldn't keep a Mother Box on him under the circumstances in the issue.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
-- Darkseid was imprisoned in the Source Wall. Or ... was he?
There are several avatars of him running around at several points in comic history. As well as Desaad impersonating him. And he's apparently had more than one trip here.
Both time and dimensions were being messed with there. The whole thing was literally and figuratively a cosmic chess game between Joker and Mxy.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Supergirl/?action=view¤t=21.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Supergirl/?action=view¤t=22.jpg
So for your argument, at best Darkseid was merely able to take advantage of the fact that in some time/dimensional scenarios he was free, at worst, Joker and Mxy's game was the sole reason he was allowed to interfere. Why else would he still require Superman to remove him from The Source Wall? Superman did it to fulfill a debt he owed Darkseid. If Darkseid wasn't really trapped, there's a whole bunch of better things he could use Superman for than freeing him when he didn't need to be freed.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
-- Darkseid possesses strength which may or may not be greater than or equal to Superman level strength. Apparently, at least here, he does not possess flight. Superman does possess flight to go along with high-level strength. But Superman is later trapped in the Source Wall by Darkseid and is every bit as helpless as Darkseid proves to free HIMself.
The Source Wall doesn't seem to operate under standard comicbook physics.
No, it tells us being trapped in The Source Wall paralyzes you, physically, mentally or both. It's a strength feat, deal with it.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
-- Superman is capable of telling complete untruths and lies.
He does so here. He tells Darkseid of all the things Kara will never do because of Darkseid, all the while knowing Kara was safely teleported AWAY from Darkseid's Omega Beams, saving her life.
Even reading the rest of your posts, I don't see what the relevance is here. Unless you're trying to argue that Superman would indeed have been killed by the Omega Beams? Should I bring-up the times he's taken them again?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,Alluded to in the previous post, the Source Wall isn't a traditional sort of strength challenge.
Were it so, and Superman as strong as you suggest the incident portrays, shouldn't he have been able to free himself?
But you know as well as I do he cannot, anymore than Darkseid was able to.
Or, he was paralyzed, physically, mentally, or both.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
--BUT--For the sake of argument, let's treat this as a standard strength feat, going just on what you showed before in your scans.
5 Karas. 4 apparently ram into, or maybe even headbutt, the Source Wall section Superman is trapped in from different angles, pinballing off saying "Ouch!" on their deflection. Loeb's 2004 Kara, meanwhile, yanks her cousin free with one good, effortful tug.
Again, judgining from the scans you posted or let remain in your album.
I don't remember reading anything contrary to that in the actual magazine, but do not have it here to confirm or deny.Going from that, however, I must point out that, in contrast to Superman, Kara has only ONE panel of seemingly brief exertion.
Superman takes about FIVE to do his chore, however, and sweats and struggles.
What we have here is either the other Supergirls weakening it while Kara pulls, or them helping but losing their grip and flying back a bit when freed. Otherwise, why exactly are they helping?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Going from your scans, no one pulls on Superman save 2004 Kara; the others just "ram". Maybe that is necessary to prevent anyone else from getting trapped? Again, I don't know the physics comic-writers have governing the Source Wall.
If that were the case, and it doesn't even make sense, why exactly didn't further trapping happen when Superman pulled Darkseid? If anything, ramming it would increase the odds of someone getting trapped. If you're trying to argue that them being so near they'd be more likely to be trapped if they didn't ram it, they could've, oh, been further away?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I would also point out, besides the fact that Superman has long hard struggle, while Kara's is easy, it would make no sense, having been guided by Bizarro to recruit all those others, for Kara not to make use of her new "friends" for the rescue.
So basically the reason she had less trouble was 'cuz she had help. Moving on.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I thought of the following actually:2 teenage girls help lift burning car off trapped man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xRgG8lgVG4
(1 min 56 sec)... to which the counter is, or might be,
"None of those girls by themselves could have lifted that car solo",
and it might be right; but the point is only that, if there ARE other helpers present in crisis, they generally help out once they've collectively decided to DO something about the crisis, they don't just generally stand around watching someone else.
Not a good analogy. It wasn't a time-dependent crisis for Superman like the burning car. If one Supergirl wasn't enough, they could always try again with more. No reason for them all to just jump in for no reason, and if you think ramming it would be to reduce others getting trapped, either this is false since Superman wasn't trapped pulling Darkseid out, or if you mean the others being trapped from being near it(which also doesn't make sense) then they'd be better off keeping their distance.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
More than this, however, besides the greater effort it takes Superman, but not his cousin, and besides the fact the Source Wall is not a straightforward strength task to begin with,
Yes, it took him more effort, because he didn't have 4 others helping him like Kara did.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I would also point out that Bizarro is generally considered ABOVE Superman himself in terms of pure physical strength.
The only actual example I know of about this had Superman state Bizarro may be stronger than him, when their minds switched bodies, because he hit Bizarro(in Superman's body) a lot harder than he meant to. He also said that it's possible Bizarro's "brain damage" might have just made controlling Bizarro's strength a lot harder.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
However, an issue or two before this one, Bizarro is lightly sent away by Kara, knocking him through the walls of her room on Paradise Island and into the sea, even as Bizarro thinks to himself, albeit IN BIZARROspeak, that Kara is as strong as he himself is, a point definitely NOT in the Man of Steel's favor if conventional wisdom of the time (ie that Bizarro is stronger than Superman) is correct.
Wrong on several accounts. First off, this is a contradiction of what you've argued before, at least on the DC boards, if not here. That punching someone it's self isn't an example of equal or superior strength. As for Bizarro's words, no, he said that before she ever punched him. Not after. So he was assuming it.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Supergirl/?action=view¤t=15.jpg
Second panel, middle dialogue box.
Second, are you trying to say that she sent him like that with a light strike? That sure seems to be what you're saying.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Supergirl/?action=view¤t=16.jpg
Definitely not a light punch, and definitely not him saying she was as strong as him after taking her punch. If you're going to try and argue that, what does that say of Wonder Woman that she got sent flying by a CASUAL back-handed slap by Superman?
Certainly you can't argue durability, considering how easily she was knocked back by a casual back-handed slap.
I daresay I've brought more accurate information relevant to this thread and what the original poster actually ASKED people in his opening posts that any other person participating, including Salsa and P.R.
Originally posted by Delta1938
I wouldn't say that. There were quite a few fights you were missing.
You wouldn't say that, because, in debate mode, you're not inclined to give credit to me for any positive thing done.
Then again, I'm not sure you've even read the BEGINNING pages of this thread, much less where the more inclusive historical fight list is posted.
Certainly there was a lot you were missing when you began posting here. I'd bet you still are.
By the way, if you DO think there are a few fights missing, you should post them. That is precisely what this thread was and still is ultimately concerned with.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Remember how earlier I talked about how Photobucket would let you post the entire fight a lot more easily? Well looky looky!!10 pages, not just 8 like you had, with one link. Even if I posted all the scans individually, still wouldn't take me 10 separate posts.
I'll eventually go back and experiment with my Photobucket account, Delta. If for no other reason than that I said I would.
I would point out, though, same as I did to Salsa ...
Well, send Salsa a private message and he can explain to you.
Originally posted by Delta1938
you thought [Omega Beams] meant instant death to Superman. But I showed numerous examples of Superman enduring them before, including multiple, Point-Blank range to little effect, with Darkseid having the intention to kill Superman. In fact, looking at Superman's reaction here----yelling at her to stay out of it, and throwing her out of the barn(note he grabs her by the arm, then we see her flying through the barn's roof), I'd say he might've been hurt, but wouldn't have been seriously harmed.
You've made a good case, but I'd be lying if I typed anything other than that I STILL think Omega Beams mean instant death to Superman ...
IF Darkseid really is Darkseid
and IF Darkseid really does intend to take Superman out
and IF Darkseid is at normal power levels.
But, as you've pointed out yourself, "Darkseid" is often an imposter,
he DOESN'T normally really want Superman killed,
and he often ISN'T at normal power levels by the time he is in true killing mode with a clear shot.
Delta, the problem is that you've left the following unanswered, none of which squares with your stated position:
If the Omega Beams are NOT a sure kill when ALL of the above conditions are met
... why does Darkseid HIMSELF seem to think he killed Kara, and speak as if he did?
... why does Wonder Woman think it necessary to shield Clark with her bracers to begin with?
... why does Superman deem it necessary to take Darkseid to the SUN to battle, where nearly every other menace, even the highest-level ones, he is content to battle on Earth?
Where else do you see Superman taking such a drastic step to deal with a threat? Why would he feel such an extreme action necessary?
The ref info for the encounter I'm asking about, by the way, where Darkseid is weakened by his own Omega attack, is the following:
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Source: Action Comics #586, Volume 1
Writer/Penciller: John Byrne
Inker: Dick Giordano
Date: March 1987
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_586
Darkseid Avatars and such. Scan 3 of 3.
Note the date of this entry.
This may or may not be a retcon of what you showed earlier.
Relevance: If Superman was actually fighting AVATARS of Darkseid or Desaad, and not Darkseid himself, then, in 2004, when SB13 took place, he had not actually endured Darkseid's Omega Beams to that point.
Because he had not actually fought Darkseid.
Note, too, that, at this point in time, if what I see is correct
(I originally got these images years ago from Darkseid Respect Thread)
Darkseid was imprisoned in the Source Wall long before the 2004 SB13 episode shown yesterday.
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Source: New Gods #15, Volume 4
Writer: John Byrne
Penciller: John Byrne
Date: February 1997
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/New_Gods_Vol_4_15
More Darkseid Avatars and such. Scan 2 of 2.
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Source: Anarky #2, Volume 1
Writer: Alan Grant
Penciller: Norm Breyfogle
Date: June 1997
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