Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Actually, Delta, I'm noticing one other problem.Photobucket itself seems to impose a size limit on what is posted there.
Probably that's covered in your size adjustment features, but I notice the scans I posted for Supergirl and the Ollie Justice League versus OMACs, the Photobucket images are quite small while my originals are actually quite large.More faithful size-proportionate rendering with what I'm posting here with KMC again than with what Photobucket gave me a few minutes ago ...
Neptunia 6 of 8.
EDIT
Never mind, I misread and thought you were talking about mine. Your's are small, I dunno why, I'm not having the same problem uploading them as you.
Neptunia 8 of 8.
Note again the juxtaposition of great strength with great vulnerability.
Hence Wonder Woman succeeds in destroying a steel door thicker than the one Superman famously handled (great strength) yet succumbs to a sudden combined-mass slam from a group of men (great vulnerability) later on.
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Source: Wonder Woman #31, Volume 1
Writer: Robert Kanigher
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: September 1948
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Wonder_Woman_Vol_1_31
Originally posted by Delta1938[H]ere's the full [Superman v2 #217 OMAC] fight.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Omacs/SUPERMAN%20V2-217/
Being taken by surprise and then beating it sure doesn't make him look nearly as bad as just showing the panel where the Omac attacks, huh?
If you say so.
Jesse doesn't agree with you. I don't either.
He makes OMAC go away with a good heat vision blast, not physical handling. OMAC smashes him through several trees with a single punch to judge from your images, especially the one I recorded as my KMC attachment for this post.
Wonder Woman, by contrast, throws her opponent 'round like a frisbee.
Nor does her quarry escape, but she destroys the OMAC without causing too much collateral damage to structures or nearby people.
AND she rescues the person trapped inside to boot.
She looks better in that showing than Superman no matter HOW you slice it, really.
Then again, I'm preoccupied.
Right now I'm really only thinking how bummed I am that you had no way to take up my $5 bet ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If you say so.Jesse doesn't agree with you. I don't either.
He makes OMAC go away with a good heat vision blast, not physical handling. OMAC smashes him through several trees with a single punch to judge from your images, especially the one I recorded as my KMC attachment for this post.
Wonder Woman, by contrast, throws her opponent 'round like a frisbee.
Nor does her quarry escape, but she destroys the OMAC without causing too much collateral damage to structures or nearby people.
AND she rescues the person trapped inside to boot.She looks better in that showing than Superman no matter HOW you slice it, really.
Then again, I'm preoccupied.
Right now I'm really only thinking how bummed I am that you had no way to take up my $5 bet ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If you say so.Jesse doesn't agree with you. I don't either.
He makes OMAC go away with a good heat vision blast, not physical handling. OMAC smashes him through several trees with a single punch to judge from your images, especially the one I recorded as my KMC attachment for this post.
Didn't pay attention to the first few pages? He was distracted by the dam being blown-up when the Omac punched him. Plus, I was proving that the scene wasn't what you tried to present it as. Superman was treated like he was due to being caught by complete surprise the first time, distracted the second.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Wonder Woman, by contrast, throws her opponent 'round like a frisbee.
Nor does her quarry escape, but she destroys the OMAC without causing too much collateral damage to structures or nearby people.
AND she rescues the person trapped inside to boot.She looks better in that showing than Superman no matter HOW you slice it, really.
You mean this?
Consider me unimpressed. She just literally throws it. Comparing to Superman who was caught off guard the first time it attacked, and distracted the second, it's nothing really to make a deal of. Or do you mean this?
Unfortunately I wasn't able to find the full-size for that scan, but it's large enough to show. I believe this is the rest.
http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/fangirl102/WWvsdozensofomacs.jpg
I'm certainly not impressed by this either. It's not her overcoming their strength. They just pile on her, no real use of leverage or strength on their part. She might as well be throwing normal humans off her. In fact, Batman's got more impressive examples than that, like when Ra's Al Ghul's men attempted to restrain him, several grabbing on using their strength AND weight and leverage, and he still overcame their attempt to restrain him.
Neither of her examples is as good as when Superman stops playing around.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Omacs/AOS%20643/
Just showing the part where he gets attacked is that cherry picking Salsa talked about pages ago. If you just show the worst part of Superman's worst showing against the Omacs, then yeah it'll look bad. Not to mention that, when you actually see the entire scene, it's not bad at all taken into context. Also, Supergirl's showing is more impressive, since two Omacs actually grabbed her using leverage and both arms for each of her arms, and she still overcame them.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Then again, I'm preoccupied.
Right now I'm really only thinking how bummed I am that you had no way to take up my $5 bet ...
Who said I would've taken it if I could? 🙁 I'm broke.
Can't help it if the man has a short attention span, P.R.
One of his character traits, really ...
Originally posted by Delta1938I was proving that the scene wasn't what you tried to present it as.
Delta, if you think you've done that, re-examine now how I actually DID present that scene via the following quote, made way back on page 2 or 3 of this thread.
Note the one change I am making NOW for THIS post is to present a scan illustrating the Supergirl scene alluded to below, but already posted earlier via Photobucket links.
Be sure to tell me afterwards where you see any inaccuracies.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It might be worth a moment to explain, at the least, that an OMAC is a "super" cyborg. The form Diana was fighting was nanotechnology that took over ordinary human people and made them into such powerful fighting forces that they could fight and eliminate people in the class of Captain Marvel, Eradicator, and Superman.Over in KMC's "All New Supergirl Respect Thread" (which is actually now about 5 years old -- time flies!), one can be seen reversing a choke Supergirl put one in (JLA #122, Volume 1), applying it instead to HER.
This is particularly interesting to note when one considers that the writings of Jeph Loeb, Joe Kelly, and Mark Verheiden all provide evidence that Kara was, in fact, physically stronger than her cousin Kal-el, alias Clark Kent, aka Superman.
Below, you can see an OMAC giving the Man of Steel himself some problems ...
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13780786
Ref Info
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Superman attacked by OMAC scene)
Source: Superman #217, Volume 2
Writer: Mark Verheiden
Penciller: Ed Benes
Date: July 2005
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman_Vol_2_217
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(Supergirl choke reversal scene)
Source: JLA #122, Volume 1
Writer: Bob Harras
Penciller: Tom Derenick
Date: January 2006
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA_Vol_1_122
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Can't help it if the man has a short attention span, P.R.
One of his character traits, really ...
So him being worried about a village even before the Omac and then being distracted by the dam being blown-up means he couldn't handle them physically?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Delta, if you think you've done that, re-examine now how I actually DID present that scene via the following quote, made way back on page 2 or 3 of this thread.Note the one change I am making NOW for THIS post is to present a scan illustrating the Supergirl scene alluded to below, but already posted earlier via Photobucket links.
Be sure to tell me afterwards where you see any inaccuracies.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13780786
[B]Ref Info
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Superman attacked by OMAC scene)
Source: Superman #217, Volume 2
Writer: Mark Verheiden
Penciller: Ed Benes
Date: July 2005
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman_Vol_2_217------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Supergirl choke reversal scene)
Source: JLA #122, Volume 1
Writer: Bob Harras
Penciller: Tom Derenick
Date: January 2006
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA_Vol_1_122 [/B]
You tried to present it as Wonder Woman>Supergirl>Superman, using the Omacs as your evidence. The scan for Supergirl doesn't really prove anything. It doesn't show Kara's grip is being broken, it just shows the Omac grabs Kara by the throat and chokes her. What do we get from this? Either Kara is much more vulnerable to strangulation than the Omac she's facing, or strangulation simply doesn't have any real effect on the Omacs.
And in fact, based on your own description of the Wonder Woman scene("It is worth noting, however, that JUST muscling around her opponent wouldn't accomplish her objective."😉, it implies Diana wasn't able to physically incapacitate it via pure strength. Who was able to do that?
Superman. And, looking at the scene, he most certainly didn't come close to giving the best punch he could give. He actually looks more irritated than angry, to be honest.
Also, as Pr mentioned, it already been shown otherwise that Superman is indeed superior to Supergirl. Sure there were questions, but Superman flat-out stated he grew-up having to hold back with his powers, being careful not to kill anybody. Kara basically got them overnight and has no experience in restraint like he does. This was in her own title, I believe.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Loeb, Kelly and Verheiden made Supergirl seem stronger than Superman?No they didn't. Loeb even went as far as to blatantly state that she only had an advantage because she hadn't learned to hold back.
That was one of only several theories Batman came up with, P.R.
That was the one he shared with Superman.
Loeb's Batman would say and do whatever was necessary to get a job done, though, even to lying to Clark, something he proved in their fight below the city.
What were the other theories?
Why didn't Kara believe Clark when he put forth this theory?
Why did Batman, in this scene you're referencing, Supergirl v5 #5, not pull out the Green Kryptonite ring he'd had on his person UNTIL Dark Kara challenged her opponent to PROVE this theory?
But that's Jeph Loeb.
Joe Kelly? I don't think ANYONE has a good case for saying Kelly thought Superman had anything over Kara. The only reason I haven't challenged Salsa more directly on this is that I was weighing whether it should be in its own thread or not.
As for Mark Verheiden, he not only references Kara's attack on the JLA in Superman v2 #223, but has Kara resisting Blackrock Lucia effectively, which Superman is NOT able to do in this issue, has Blackrock Lucia explicitly state AFTER the SG5 scene you're referring to that Kara is STRONGER than Superman is, and have Supergirl feel compelled to protect her cousin, make sure he is safe.
No, if we're talking 2004-2008 Kara Zor-el, P.R.,
I stand by my statement:
the writings of Jeph Loeb, Joe Kelly, and Mark Verheiden all provide evidence that Kara was, in fact, physically stronger than her cousin Kal-el.
Delta,
You mention MMA, Krav Maga, fight background and other related topics about every 3 pages ... in ADDITION to periodically posting clips.
I'd like to hear your opinion on some things in the following thread, which I'm starting today.
Interested what other forum participant discussions are like, after all ...
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=565671
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That was one of only several theories Batman came up with, P.R.
That was the one he shared with Superman.
Loeb's Batman would say and do whatever was necessary to get a job done, though, even to lying to Clark, something he proved in their fight below the city.
What were the other theories?Why didn't Kara believe Clark when he put forth this theory?
Why did Batman, in this scene you're referencing, Supergirl v5 #5, not pull out the Green Kryptonite ring he'd had on his person UNTIL Dark Kara challenged her opponent to PROVE this theory?But that's Jeph Loeb.
Joe Kelly? I don't think ANYONE has a good case for saying Kelly thought Superman had anything over Kara. The only reason I haven't challenged Salsa more directly on this is that I was weighing whether it should be in its own thread or not.
As for Mark Verheiden, he not only references Kara's attack on the JLA in Superman v2 #223, but has Kara resisting Blackrock Lucia effectively, which Superman is NOT able to do in this issue, has Blackrock Lucia explicitly state AFTER the SG5 scene you're referring to that Kara is STRONGER than Superman is, and have Supergirl feel compelled to [B]protect
her cousin, make sure he is safe.No, if we're talking 2004-2008 Kara Zor-el, P.R.,
I stand by my statement:the writings of Jeph Loeb, Joe Kelly, and Mark Verheiden all provide evidence that Kara was, in fact, physically stronger than her cousin Kal-el. [/B]
I honestly don't agree at all. Both Loeb and Kelly wrote Superman himself as being without equal when he pushed himself, Supergirl included. They have a history of this right back to the late 90s/early 00s. A consistent history too. To make the argument that he was superior, all you'd have to do is read the totality of their Superman work.
The Blackrock's statement can't exactly be considered fact, especially when Superman so easily dealt with the Blackrock back in Superman 218 I think it was. Yeah, it was. And the fact that, as Loeb had stated in his own book, that Supergirl holds back a lot less than Superman does. It was a consistent theme throughout her entire early run.
When it came to actual feats, Superman was still superior by a fair margin. Heck, look at New Krypton.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly don't agree at all. Both Loeb and Kelly wrote Superman himself as being without equal when he pushed himself, Supergirl included. They have a history of this right back to the late 90s/early 00s. A consistent history too. To make the argument that he was superior, all you'd have to do is read the totality of their Superman work.The Blackrock's statement can't exactly be considered fact, especially when Superman so easily dealt with the Blackrock back in Superman 218 I think it was. Yeah, it was. And the fact that, as Loeb had stated in his own book, that Supergirl holds back a lot less than Superman does. It was a consistent theme throughout her entire early run.
When it came to actual feats, Superman was still superior by a fair margin. Heck, look at New Krypton.
Sterling Gates made some MAJOR retcons to Supergirl during his run.
2004-2008 has consistency that I don't claim for the period beyond that.
I don't see the validity of making any claim for Superman before Kara was introduced. You'll have to explain why you think that reasonable.
As for Blackrock Lucia, she makes specific mention, from what I can tell, of the Blackrock you're thinking of ...
(Scan 1 of 2.)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Sterling Gates made some MAJOR retcons to Supergirl during his run.
2004-2008 has consistency that I don't claim for the period beyond that.I don't see the validity of making any claim for Superman before Kara was introduced. You'll have to explain why you think that reasonable.
As for Blackrock Lucia, she makes specific mention, from what I can tell, of the Blackrock you're thinking of ...
(Scan 1 of 2.)
I know the issue, but a character's statement isn't always a solid, indisputable fact.
To be perfectly honest, the evidence for her being more powerful than him is a lot scarcer than the opposing viewpoint. I think, though, that you can't make the claim that she is stronger when you're only limiting yourself to that small a period. I mean, you're losing out on a lot, especially seeing as, pre reboot, the Superman in the comics was the same guy during the 2004-2008 period was the same guy before AND after said period.
Or are you trying to say that for that brief period, she was more powerful and then they changed it?
Blackrock Lucia ... makes specific mention ... of the Blackrock you're thinking of ...
(Scan 2 of 2.)
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Source: Superman #223, Volume 2
Writer: Mark Verheiden
Penciller: Ed Benes
Date: January 2006
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman_Vol_2_223
Originally posted by -Pr-
are you trying to say that for that brief period, she was more powerful and then they changed it?
Things definitely changed during Gate's run.
For starters, Kara got de-aged 2 years.
Then, many of her memories and adventures in earlier comics were made into hallucinations, not actual events.
I don't know what happened to Superman in the same time period; Kara Zor-el became a VERY different character after 2007.
More on this later, though. Right now, I need more shut-eye ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That was one of only several theories Batman came up with, P.R.
That was the one he shared with Superman.
Loeb's Batman would say and do whatever was necessary to get a job done, though, even to lying to Clark, something he proved in their fight below the city.
What were the other theories?
What other theories? I only saw one other mentioned(her being exposed to more solar energy from the panels before she even arrived on Earth), not "several," and by Superman's own words, it didn't even look like it was Batman's theory.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Supergirl/Not%20More%20Powerful/
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Why didn't Kara believe Clark when he put forth this theory?
Maybe the fact that she's a hormone-drive, rebellious teenager who's new to godlike powers, and confused from the black Kryptonite and other stuff has something to do with it?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Why did Batman, in this scene you're referencing, Supergirl v5 #5, not pull out the Green Kryptonite ring he'd had on his person UNTIL Dark Kara challenged her opponent to PROVE this theory?
One: Actually, I think it was regular Kara, not Dark Kara. The switching costumes was never clear if it really happened, and the middle page I have for the above scans implies it was regular Kara all along. Two: Probably 'cuz the fight is over and there's two and they're still not sure who's who?
Anyways, in addition to the Omacs example(when Superman's not playing around), Superman also looked better than Kara against the armored Luthor despite being in less than peak condition. When he fought Luthor, he had already been through the gauntlet. He fought a huge team of villains, had solar energy drained, then fought a powerful team Luthor sent after him, then fought Captain Marvel, all while Kryptonite was effecting him, getting stronger as the Kryptonite meteor got closer. The first 3 links aren't required, but do give you a sense of what hes' been through.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/
This, however, is important to see that he was effected by Kryptonite even before he was attacked by the first villain(Silver Banshee), showing he was drained of solar energy, and to see that he was further feeling the effects of Kryptonite by asking Power Girl if she felt anything(as the switches between her physiology because of the upcoming INFINITE CRISIS had her show effect to Kryptonite) before the Captain Marvel fight.
This link is the fight, but also includes him showing feeling the Kryptonite even more before Captain Atom jumps in and blasts him with energy channeled through the Kryptonite ring, before he goes to fight Luthor. Who also blasts Superman with apparently Kryptonite LASERs.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Armored%20Luthor/
This is how Kara does against Luthor, without any prior significant Kryptonite exposure(she did have those Kryptonite shackles on in a sparring session with some Outsiders, but they had adjustable output settings, which she set extremely low, and she had plenty of time between that and fighting Luthor for it to be out of her system).
She got owned. Dark Kara does do better, and maybe better than Superman did, but One: She's both MUCH more aggressive and shows to be more effective with her other powers than regular Kara was(and Superman just slugged it Luthor), and Two: Kara didn't have the same circumstances weakening her that Superman did. Oh yeah, and neither Kara nor Dark Kara actually look stronger against Luthor than the less than peak Superman.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
But that's Jeph Loeb.Joe Kelly? I don't think ANYONE has a good case for saying Kelly thought Superman had anything over Kara. The only reason I haven't challenged Salsa more directly on this is that I was weighing whether it should be in its own thread or not.
Don't think I've read what you two are referring to.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As for Mark Verheiden, he not only references Kara's attack on the JLA in Superman v2 #223, but has Kara resisting Blackrock Lucia effectively, which Superman is NOT able to do in this issue, has Blackrock Lucia explicitly state AFTER the SG5 scene you're referring to that Kara is STRONGER than Superman is, and have Supergirl feel compelled to [B]protect her cousin, make sure he is safe.No, if we're talking 2004-2008 Kara Zor-el, P.R.,
I stand by my statement:the writings of Jeph Loeb, Joe Kelly, and Mark Verheiden all provide evidence that Kara was, in fact, physically stronger than her cousin Kal-el. [/B]
I don't know if you're talking about the same instance, but what I saw with the Blackrock, Superman was the one who did better against it, and I don't recall ANYTHING about Kara being said to be stronger. Oh, and you can stand by your statement. Doesn't change the fact that it's wrong. Much like Wonder Woman being stronger, too.
