Originally posted by biensalsa
You can buy digital copies online though DC comics
Thanks, Salsa.
I'm a virtual dinosaur as far as the computer age goes, compared to some of you guys, anyway, but I'll take that suggestion into consideration.
In the meantime, I was searching online for some stuff and happened upon the following ...
http://www.dcindexes.com/indexes/indexes.php?character=75&choice=appearances
The link above takes to a place called "Mike's Amazing World of DC Comics", which apparently gives a review of many character's titles.
Think I'll list a few of the ones prior to 1947 (the year of Marston's death) on this page ...
Appearances in Order of Publication
All-Star Comics #8 Dec/Jan 1941
(Introducing Wonder Woman)
Sensation Comics #1 January 1942
(Wonder Woman Comes to America)
Sensation Comics #2 February 1942
(Dr. Poison)
Sensation Comics #3 March 1942
(A Spy in the Office)
Sensation Comics #4 April 1942
(School for Spies)
Sensation Comics #5 May 1942
(Wonder Woman Versus the Saboteurs)
Sensation Comics #6 June 1942
(Summons to Paradise)
All-Star Comics #11 Jun/Jul 1942
"The Justice Society Joins the War on Japan"
Sensation Comics #7 July 1942
(The Milk Swindle)
Sensation Comics #8 August 1942
(Department Store Perfidy)
All-Star Comics #12 Aug/Sep 1942
(The Black Dragon Menace)
Sensation Comics #9 September 1942
(The Return of Diana Prince)
Wonder Woman #1 Summer 1942
(The Origin of Wonder Woman)
"Wonder Woman Goes to the Circus"
(Wonder Woman Versus the Prison Spy Ring)
"The Greatest Feat of Daring in Human History"
Sensation Comics #10 October 1942
(The Railroad Plot)
All-Star Comics #13 Oct/Nov 1942
"Shanghaied into Space"
Sensation Comics #11 November 1942
(Mission to Planet Eros)
Sensation Comics #12 December 1942
(America's Guardian Angel)
All-Star Comics #14 Dec/Jan 1942
"Food for Starving Patriots"
Wonder Woman #2 Fall 1942
(The God of War)
Wonder Woman Appearances in order of publication. 1943 to 1944.
Rather amazing to consider the number of stories released for her in just these 2 years ... ! (49 magazines)
Sensation Comics #13 January 1943
(Wonder Woman is Dead)
Sensation Comics #14 February 1943
(The Story of Fir Balsam)
Comic Cavalcade #1 Winter 1942
"The Mystery of the House of Seven Gables"
Wonder Woman #3 Feb/Mar 1943
(A Spy on Paradise Island)
(The Devilish Devices of Baroness Von Gunther)
(The Secret of Baroness Von Gunther)
"Ordeal of Fire"
All-Star Comics #15 Feb/Mar 1943
"The Man Who Created Images"
Sensation Comics #15 March 1943
(Victory at Sea)
Sensation Comics #16 April 1943
"The Masked Menace"
Wonder Woman #4 Apr/May 1943
(Man-Hating Madness)
(Mole Men of the Underworld)
(The Rubber Barons)
(The Treachery of Mavis)
All-Star Comics #16 Apr/May 1943
"The Justice Society Fights for a United America"
Sensation Comics #17 May 1943
(Riddle of the Talking Lion)
Comic Cavalcade #2 Spring 1943
"Wanted by Hitler, Dead or Alive"
Sensation Comics #18 June 1943
(The Secret City of the Incas)
Wonder Woman #5 Jun/Jul 1943
"Battle for Womanhood"
"Etta Candy and Her Holliday Girls"
(Mars Invades the Moon)
(The Return of Dr. Psycho)
All-Star Comics #17 Jun/Jul 1943
"The Brain Wave Goes Berserk"
Sensation Comics #19 July 1943
"The Unbound Amazon"
Sensation Comics #20 August 1943
"The Girl with the Gun"
Comic Cavalcade #3 Summer 1943
"The Invisible Invader"
Sensation Comics #21 September 1943
"War Against Society"
Wonder Woman #6 Fall 1943
"Wonder Woman and the Cheetah"
"The Adventure of the Beauty Club"
"The Conquest of Paradise"
Sensation Comics #22 October 1943
"The Secret Submarine"
All-Star Comics #18 Fall 1943
"Insects Turn to Crime"
Sensation Comics #23 November 1943
(War Laugh Mania)
Comic Cavalcade #4 Fall 1943
"The Purloined Pressure Coordinator"
Sensation Comics #24 December 1943
"Adventure of the Pilotless Plane"
Sensation Comics #25 January 1944
"Adventure of the Kidnapers of Astral Spirits"
All-Star Comics #19 Winter 1943
"The Crimes Set to Music"
Wonder Woman #7 Winter 1943
"The Adventure of the Life Vitamin"
"America's Wonder Women of Tomorrow"
"The Secret Weapon"
"Demon of the Depths"
Sensation Comics #26 February 1944
"The Masquerader"
Comic Cavalcade #5 Winter 1943
"Mystery of the Crimson Flame"
Sensation Comics #27 March 1944
"The Fun Foundation"
Sensation Comics #28 April 1944
"The Malice of the Green Imps"
All-Star Comics #20 Spring 1944
"The Movie That Changed a Man's Life"
Wonder Woman #8 Spring 1944
"Queen Clea's Tournament of Death"
"The Girl with the Iron Mask"
"The Captive Queen"
Sensation Comics #29 May 1944
"Adventure of the Escaped Prisoner"
Comic Cavalcade #6 Spring 1944
"The Mystery of Countess Mazuma"
Sensation Comics #30 June 1944
"The 4th Dimension Kidnapers"
Sensation Comics #31 July 1944
"Grown-Down Land"
All-Star Comics #21 Summer 1944
"The Man Who Relived His Life"
Wonder Woman #9 Summer 1944
"Evolution Goes Haywire"
Sensation Comics #32 August 1944
"The Crime Combine"
Comic Cavalcade #7 Summer 1944
"The Vulture's Nest"
Sensation Comics #33 September 1944
"The Disappearance of Tama"
Sensation Comics #34 October 1944
"Edgar's New World"
All-Star Comics #22 Fall 1944
"The Test of Time"
Wonder Woman #10 Fall 1944
"Spies from Saturn"
Comic Cavalcade #8 Fall 1944
"The Amazon Bride"
Sensation Comics #35 November 1944
"Girls Under the Sea"
Sensation Comics #36 December 1944
"Battle Against Revenge"
Big All-American Comic Book #1 1944
"Danny the Demon Had Plans"
I saved the remainder of the items via e-mail.
Re-producing the rest of the list in one fell swoop would take up too much space for my sense of aesthetics right now.
I'll cite these 2 entries, though ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sensation Comics #65 May 1947
"Treachery in the Arctic"
Wonder Woman #23 May/Jun 1947
"Siege of the Savage War Maidens"
"The Vanishing Mummy"
"Wonder Woman and the Coming of the Kangas"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... for they are the last 2 entries William Marston could have personally overseen the writing and publication of. Because he died May 2, 1947.
I'll make the note that the premise
"Wonder Woman's creator wanted Diana to match or exceed Superman's strength but subsequent writers didn't follow that..."
was wrong.
Unless Marston had some great storehouse of material that was being faithfully printed after his death.
Which may well have been the case.
I don't know either way.
What I DO know, however, is that all the greatest Wonder Woman strength feats I'VE found occurred in stories printed AFTER he had gone to final reward.
I'll post some of those if time and scheduling permits, of course.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I saved the remainder of the items via e-mail.Re-producing the rest of the list in one fell swoop would take up too much space for my sense of aesthetics right now.
I'll cite these 2 entries, though ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sensation Comics #65 May 1947
"Treachery in the Arctic"Wonder Woman #23 May/Jun 1947
"Siege of the Savage War Maidens"
"The Vanishing Mummy"
"Wonder Woman and the Coming of the Kangas"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------... for they are the last 2 entries William Marston could have personally overseen the writing and publication of. Because he died May 2, 1947.
I'll make the note that the premise
"Wonder Woman's creator wanted Diana to match or exceed Superman's strength but subsequent writers didn't follow that..."
was wrong.
Unless Marston had some great storehouse of material that was being faithfully printed after his death.
Which may well have been the case.
I don't know either way.
What I DO know, however, is that all the greatest Wonder Woman strength feats I'VE found occurred in stories printed AFTER he had gone to final reward.
I'll post some of those if time and scheduling permits, of course.
At best, that proves that after Marston's death, Wonder Woman writers tried to keep-up with the creator's intent to have her equal to Superman during the Golden Age. But it doesn't even PROVE that much, is merely evidence, as Pr pointed-out her having more impressive feats as time went on is the natural progression of comics. It proves nothing about applying today. As for the Golden Age, best I saw was Wonder Woman towing the Sun. Very impressive. But still falls short of Superman CREATING one during the 40's.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=superman58_pg46.jpg
Makes moving the planet he made the sun for after pretty mundane by comparison, huh?
As for his intent for her to be Superman's equal in the Modern Age, clearly it was not followed from Pre-CRISIS up until the DCnU reboot.
Here, Superman casually KOs Primaid with a single backhanded blow.
And yet, Diana doesn't appear to be able to KO Primaid, merely outlast her in space.
I know you don't like it and do EVERYTHING you can to dismiss it, but the fact is, Diana was barely capable of restraining Superman despite having leverage and lots of help.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Wonder%20Woman/MOT%2013/
Fact is, he had no noticeable increase in power, and you falsely claimed that they found him to be stronger than normal. YOU WANT them to have found him to be stronger than normal. The fact that Superman so casually one-shot Primaid, where Wonder Woman couldn't even KO her, just had to outlast her for a TKO(and not even by striking) shows this.
During DOOMSDAY WARS when she stopped holding back, she pretty much had no effect on the Brainiac-controlled Doomsday. He was clearly toying with her.
But after Brainiac was forced-out, Superman was not only able to momentarily overwhelm Doomsday, but cause Doomsday pain and drew blood.
That example Wonder Woman fans and Superman haters love where she pins him twice in one day? Yeah, not only is it blown out of proportion just because people ignore the whole Diana's a better grappler aspect, but leave-out that he's incredibly distracted because of Luthor's whole Presidency thing. Diana even makes note of it, the whole point of the scene. They also leave-out that when she pins him, he pretty easily throws her off.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Overpowers%20Diana/SUPERMAN%20V2%20165/
So Superman's actually the more impressive looking one there, when you include the last page and take context into account.
Then there's the whole Imperiex Probe thing. Despite using both arms to attack using an ENCHANTED AX, AND has Aquaman's help(as he's simultaneously punching it), she fails to scratch it.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg06.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg07.jpg
Superman on the other hand was far more effective against the Imperiex Probes, and no, it was not because of your excuse that she doesn't have his durability. She wasn't able to crack one without exploiting a chink in it's armor, with a shield amping the force of her blow to boot. And she didn't even know of the explosion when she was swinging her ax at it with both arms and Arthur's help. Superman on the other hand did get to a point where he could one-shot them with his fists.
This definitely proves that her being his equal intent was NOT respected from 1986-2002. Ahhhhhh but the 2003-2011 period you claim there's no proof that he's stronger, which I proved wrong. Well, let's go through some examples, I have a new one or two.
During the whole Supergirl thing in SUPERMAN/BATMAN, when the Doomsday-based animates invaded, Wonder Woman wasn't able to do much more than knock one back with her punch.
But Superman was able to bust one's head-up with a punch.
You might argue it's not the strongest example, but it is evidence. One of several. We also have these from FOR TOMORROW.
She's charging him, and he easily grabs her wrist stopping her entire body's charge. And this.
Her winding-up for quite an overhand right, and he catches it. Casually. You've tried to dismiss this as her emotional state, but that's grasping at straws, and even if it were a legitimate argument, it only dismisses one of several examples.
Then we have this from SACRIFICE.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Overpowers%20Diana/AOS%20642-WW%20219/
If it were just the scan from WW #219, you'd have an argument that she's just waiting for the plan. But adding the AOS #642 scan, it's clear she's been overpowered. And then there's this.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Overpowers%20Diana/WW%20219/
He clearly grabs her, and overpowers her here. As I've pointed-out before, Diana's ATTEMPTING(and failing) to use a technique that allows a victim to break the grip of a STRONGER attacker. So the fact that she still can't break his grip proves he's not only stronger, but much stronger.
We also have this little gem from INFINITE CRISIS #1.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Mongul%20Comparison/
Not only are his punches(in fact, even just his first punch alone) are more effective than her using both arms swinging an enchanted sword, but when she attempts to execute Mongul, Superman stops her sword swing by clasping it between his hands, stopping it dead in it's tracks.
And these are just direct showings or direct comparisons. Not including the at least two examples showing he's stronger than Power Girl(who by Diana's own words is at least as strong as Wonder Woman) or the fact that his feats surpass anything I've seen from her on her own, and her best feat of strength by-far, shared with him, is still surpassed by at least two of his feats.
Originally posted by -Pr-
[Wonder Woman's] best strength feats would have been after [Marston] died ...
THAT's natural given how comics naturally progressed ...
I have relatively little disagreement with that premise.
Just pointing out that, based on my admittedly limited Golden Age reading collection, people who posit 'Marston was the most concerned with matching GoldenBlue, therefore Wonder Woman would have done the most strength feats under Marston', seem to be wrong.
I would say, though, the natural follow up to YOUR idea of "natural progression of comics", is that, given what the SILVER Age is known for, feats should have reached their zenith for BOTH characters during the 1960s.
From what I can tell, however, THAT did not happen.
That still doesn't mean that her best strength feats eclipse Clark's best, though.
As Delta pointed out earlier, very VERY few people really know what either character did during this era.
On the other hand, even Salsa readily conceded that what is popularly KNOWN among the largest reading segment for the Golden Age had Wonder Woman typically one-upping Superman:
Originally posted by biensalsa (on page 20)Now that I'm collecting feats for the early days I noticed something very interesting here.
Comic books were trying to outsell each other by feats.
Hence WW lifting a bus when SM just lifted a car, next feat SM holds a bridge and so on.
It was a common practice back then.
So this will be a common practice until they started to put limits on their heroes ...
I think it will be interesting to see what Salsa comes up with.
I'm looking forward to his Golden Age Superman thread; if he does indeed create one.
I still maintain ['powerhouse' is Superman's] "niche" within the team. Others are strong, yes, but he's the strongest.
Here's one unique thing about the Golden Age that I would like to point out:
For the most part, THERE WAS NO TEAM.
The character of Wonder Woman, which, if my understanding is correct, posted its highest sales during these days, was the strongest in her realm, even as Superman was the strongest in his, even as, presumably, Captain Marvel was over at Fawcett.
And, as I think you have seen already, the feats were indeed comparable to one another in the purest and most absolute sense.
It seems to take a "crossover" title and a yesteryear EDITORIAL TEAM limiting WHAT THE CHARACTER IS ALLOWED TO DO before you see a drop-off in the quantity and magnitude of strength feats with Wonder Woman.
Before then she had a similar reputation, was the hero of first and last call, was spoken of nearly exactly the same way, and possessed whatever quality was necessary in exactly the right proportion to meet or exceed her challenges -- no matter HOW great those challenges looked to be.
More on this once we get to Justice League, Volume 1.
Originally posted by -Pr-
My mistake; I wasn't debating Golden Age; rather the modern age.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Her best strength feats would have been after HE died.
That's natural given how comics naturally progressed ...
😕
P.R., if your "he" wasn't referring to Marston, then who exactly WERE you talking about?
Originally posted by Delta1938Haven't shown [For Tomorrow, Superman #211] here(but did on the DC boards a year and a half ago or so), but Salsa has.
[The skirmish between Superman and Wonder Woman there is] from 2005(or late 2004).I know on the DC boards you tried to justify it doesn't count, but it does count. He caught her punch while he was rather calm.
If "calmness" is your premise, it would follow that somebody like Darkseid is stronger than Superman, perhaps by a fair margin.
Fairly rare to see the Big D losing HIS cool in a fight.
Somehow I don't think you're willing to admit anything like that, though ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If "calmness" is your premise, it would follow that somebody like Darkseid is stronger than Superman, perhaps by a fair margin.
Fairly rare to see the Big D losing HIS cool in a fight.Somehow I don't think you're willing to admit anything like that, though ...
Actually, I generally have seen Darkseid as stronger than Superman. But, even if I didn't, your argument doesn't really work. Superman is doing stuff where he's DIRECTLY showing to be stronger(catching her punch, stopping her charge) in a casual manner. Can't think of Darkseid doing similar stuff in ANY of the fights I've seen him in(with one half-remembered exception, but I'd have to double check to be sure), not just with Superman.
Then there's the whole Imperiex Probe thing. Despite using both arms to attack using an ENCHANTED AX, AND has Aquaman's help(as he's simultaneously punching it), she fails to scratch it.
I'll note that particular probe was *easily* the highest in feats. It took out Plas, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter, and Diana was the one who killed it in the end once she was informed to go for the joints.
Also her mother took out *two* a bit later.
Originally posted by Q99
I'll note that particular probe was *easily* the highest in feats. It took out Plas, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter, and Diana was the one who killed it in the end once she was informed to go for the joints.Also her mother took out *two* a bit later.
Hippolyta took them out at all because the lasso was a Plot-Device that happened to be able to cut through them. I've recently gone through I believe all the Imperiex Probes showings and I'd say the worst showing was one being "beaten" by Supergirl(Linda Danvers separated from Matrix) Comet, Blithe and the Leesburg police. But really, the Probe simply found it too troublesome to continue going through the town and decided to go a different route. Unless you count when Superman and Doomsday were one-shotting them, but that was A: Doomsday, and B: A specific point to show Superman had become even more powerful.
The Probes weren't shown in that many full-blown fights, but there were multiple examples of them single-handedly wasting teams, either in the process or shown the results.
Originally posted by Delta1938I've recently gone through ... Imperiex Probes showings ...
I'd say the worst showing was one being "beaten" by Supergirl (Linda Danvers separated from Matrix) ...
Hmm.
I suspected something like that happened ...
Got any scans or images for that fight?
An issue number?
Explains now why the following appears in the opening chapter of Peter A. David (PAD)'s "Many Happy Returns" (MHR) storyline ...
(MHR landing, scan 1 of 2)
Originally posted by Delta1938I've recently gone through ... Imperiex Probes showings ...
I'd say the worst showing was one being "beaten" by Supergirl (Linda Danvers) ...
MHR Landing. Scan 2 of 2.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Supergirl #75, Volume 4
Storyline: "Many Happy Returns"
Writer: Peter David
Penciller: Ed Benes
Date: December 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Supergirl_Vol_4_75
Originally posted by Delta1938Superman and Doomsday were one-shotting [Imperiex Probes], but that was
A: Doomsday, and
B: A specific point to show Superman had become even more powerful.
Why does Superman look like the Human Torch here?
Is this just an artist portrayal of him flying extremely fast, or sundipping?
HOW exactly did he become "more powerful" at this point, as you state above?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Why does Superman look like the Human Torch here?
Is this just an artist portrayal of him flying extremely fast, or sundipping?HOW exactly did he become "more powerful" at this point, as you state above?
This is the 1st official power up for Superman confirmed by the company in the letters section
The next one happened when He trained with Mongul Jr.
And it seems the scan you posted are not about Imperex but another Supergirl
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Hmm.I suspected something like that happened ...
Got any scans or images for that fight?
An issue number?Explains now why the following appears in the opening chapter of Peter A. David (PAD)'s "Many Happy Returns" (MHR) storyline ...
(MHR landing, scan 1 of 2)
What I referred to is from SUPERGIRL #60, almost a year and a half before your scans. OUR WORLDS AT WAR happened during summer of 2001, so SUPERGIRL #75 might have a connection, but isn't an actual tie-in. Here's the relevant scans from SUPERGIRL #60.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Supergirl-Imperiex%20Probe/
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Why does Superman look like the Human Torch here?
Is this just an artist portrayal of him flying extremely fast, or sundipping?HOW exactly did he become "more powerful" at this point, as you state above?
Must be the artist's way of depicting him flying fast, 'cuz that's the only time we see him portrayed like that in the issue. In fact, the very panel below that one shows him not like that when he's hit by an Imperiex Probe's energy blast.
As for him being more powerful, he's finally really dropped the mental blocks. Second panel's narration talks about it in this page.
Remember I mentioned before Superman's powers being dynamic? Well, here's a bunch of scans showing it.
Here, we see Superman's got his powers, as he survived a trip through the Firepits Of Apokolips, but it gave him a bad enough concussion that he got amnesia. As you see, his powers are in tact when the guy who found him puts fire on his hand and Superman's still unconscious, but when he wakes-up with amnesia, his hand burns. And you can see Darkseid talks about the amnesia made him lose his powers, and Darkseid got his powers to return by convincing Superman that he was Darkseid's son and his powers came from him, before Superman goes to fight Orion.
Here, Mongul Junior's training Superman to overcome his limitations. The story made chronological shifts, so it'll get a little confusing when I just presented the relevant scans. But there's numerous references to Superman holding back, including some that basically say he can't do something because he either won't or thinks he can't.
And before you try and explain it as Mongul's just teaching him to be more aggressive, or use more rage, the rage is fueling his powers and all. And this particular scan is important.
Bottom left panel, Superman specifically says he felt his powers surging. We also have these.
Middle-right panel, Batman states that Superman holds back to the point that he subconsciously regulates his powers. And this.
Analysis shows that Superman's mental state effects his energy stores.
Also, remember when you tried arguing that Supergirl is stronger than Superman because Bizarro said(in Bizarro-Speak) that she's as strong as he is, and Bizarro is stronger? Well, there was an implication that Bizarro was stronger based on Superman's experience in Bizarro's body, hitting harder than he meant to or something like that, but I believe he also speculated that it could be since Bizarro's "damaged goods," that that makes it harder to control Bizarro's strength. But, we also have this.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=123.jpg
Bottom left panel, then the one to it's right. Bizarro says, in Bizarro-Speak, that he's the strongest one there is. Superman talks down Bizarro in Bizarro-Speak, saying that he(Superman) is the strongest one there is, and not to challenge him. Bizarro backs off.
Originally posted by biensalsa
This is the 1st official power up for Superman confirmed by the company in the letters sectionThe next one happened when He trained with Mongul Jr.
And it seems the scan you posted are not about Imperex but another Supergirl
😒 😠 YOU STOLE MY THUNDER!!! Oh well, at least I went into more detail about the dynamic power thing.
