Originally posted by Q99[Diana] has one-shotted Supergirl before, btw.
There's a good case to be made that she does so in Supergirl 5.
Especially for those who like to go by artwork.
Note that the following is the ONLY attack we see Wonder Woman make on Light Kara Supergirl (yes, this IS actually the "good" half, not the so-called "bad" one) and that the next time we see Light Kara she's still sitting on the ground.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There's a good case to be made that she does so in Supergirl 5.Especially for those who like to go by artwork.
Note that the following is the ONLY attack we see Wonder Woman make on Light Kara Supergirl (yes, this IS actually the "good" half, not the so-called "bad" one) and that the next time we see Light Kara she's still sitting on the ground.
Well is interesting how is being said that WW "one shoted" Supergirl and because of that she is stronger than Supergirl.
Therefore WW> SG > SM
But on the same comic IN A DIRECT COMPARISON Superman also one shots SG when he stops playing around and DRAWS BLOOD something WW didn't accomplished.
WW gets rocked with a single punch from dark Kara and Kara did't hit WW strong enough to draw blood, that, or WW has more durability than Superman.
While Superman gets punched 3 times unfazed and the 4th time draws little blood
And then BOTH "one shot" the Supergirls BUT... Superman is the one who draws blood from Kara, not WW. AND right uppercut vs left uppercut, but that is prob not as important as to drawing blood.
This is a very bad example to prove than WW is stronger IMO.
I have to add, if Loeb says SG is stronger this is the second time he is lying.
Before and while holding back SM seems to handle Two Supergirls fine.
I know WW is not as durable as Superman, to withstand 3 Supergirl punches in THIS comic. I know she can survive Ko'ed reentry to earth under another writer the same way SM can survive electromagnetic discharges of 50 supernovas under the another writer...but apparently and going by this comic SM packs more punch than WW
Originally posted by biensalsaBefore and while holding back SM seems to handle Two Supergirls fine.
Come.
Be more honest than this.
You know as well as I do that your images of Superman "handling 2 Supergirls fine" is him STARTING a fight with them by BLINDSIDING them both.
To say little of the fact that, saying even THAT much largely ignores the fact that "Light" Supergirl was HELPING Bruce, Clark, and Diana's cause by actively fighting AGAINST her "Dark" half all before then.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Delta, Salsa,If one of you would be so kind, I would greatly appreciate a few scans of Kal's rocket launch from Krypton to Earth in Birthright. I believe it's circa 2003 from Mark Waid? Got a few of my own that I'll show if I get no reply from either of you, but mine are rather small in size, and so, less than ideal...
Thanks in advance.
Used to have it, don't have it anymore(just a few scans from it on my Photobucket), sorry.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Q might be able to show something of that sort; conversely, he or she might not.Invulnerability has always been Diana's most inconsistent trait, historically. I note with interest that the Superman/Batman: Apocalypse film has Superman flying to meet the fire of a tank to shield Diana, Barda, and Bruce -- not likely any of them would have proven immune to it during the 2004 storyline its based on, just question if all would have even survived.
I think Barda would've survived it. This is from 1999.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=11.jpg
Barda talks about training in the "plasma pits of Apokolips" builds-up heat tolerance. Then, this.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=14.jpg
JLA: PRIMEVAL.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Rucka seems to have upped Wonder Woman's durability.
It's evidenced most strikingly, no pun intended, by Diana taking the 180 degree haymaker our SUNCHARGED friend Clark uses to crater her all the way FROM the Sun back to Earth.
What is that ...? Some 20 MILLION miles or so?
Dark Kara's not punching Kal with ANYTHING like that kind of force in SG5.
Considering that you think that under normal conditions, that little pebble of Kryptonite should've stopped Superman dead in his tracks, doesn't this mean that, by YOUR standards, the Kryptonite would've countered any amp and this would be a punch from a NORMAL-level Superman?
Although the actual punch it's self(itself?) is still impressive(sent FTL), by your own previous argument, this should be Superman at his standard levels, not Sun-Amped.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Tsk! See what you get for using a sucky IHP like Photobucket, Delta?
tah I think having one actual issue outweighs all the trouble you have to go through, and you still occasionally have issues with your images. 😱
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Come.Be more honest than this.
You know as well as I do that your images of Superman "handling 2 Supergirls fine" is him STARTING a fight with them by BLINDSIDING them both.
To say little of the fact that, saying even THAT much largely ignores the fact that "Light" Supergirl was HELPING Bruce, Clark, and Diana's cause by actively fighting AGAINST her "Dark" half all before then.
You didn't seem to have a problem using being blindsided when it was Superman, and supported your argument. But anyways, it doesn't change Salsa's point. Superman's punch had a more impressive effect against one of the Kara's than Wonder Woman's, and he used an inferior technique than Diana did.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's interesting to note that Gail Simone may have not only continued Rucka's motif of more consistent invulnerability to upgrading Diana yet again. Taking the Sun-to-Earth punch of 2005's "Sacrifice" could yet conceivably be explained by punches being "blunt" force trauma; Diana still, presumably, had her odd vulnerability to focused point-projectiles and edged or sharp objects.Then we saw the following:
I wouldn't use Gail Simone's writing to try and prove Diana is stronger, if I were you, given that Simone unequivocally said that Superman was stronger than Diana.
She got a lot of flak for it from Diana fans too.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Come.Be more honest than this.
You know as well as I do that your images of Superman "handling 2 Supergirls fine" is him STARTING a fight with them by BLINDSIDING them both.
To say little of the fact that, saying even THAT much largely ignores the fact that "Light" Supergirl was HELPING Bruce, Clark, and Diana's cause by actively fighting AGAINST her "Dark" half all before then.
They were already engaged and aware that a battle is taking place.
If anything it shows how Superman is able to blindside them when they should be aware that a fight is taking place.
But in any case. it does not change the fact that in a direct comparison Superman ends up looking better than Wonder Woman, drawing blood from a Supergirl.
Do You agree that on this instance Superman seems to punch harder?
Based on the fact that Superman's strength is breaking Kara's invulnerability, and Wonder Woman isn't.
Probably Wonder Woman is even using a better technique.
Based on this particular showing it seems Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman, Do you agree?
After getting some help, and doing a little bit of research, I've come to debunk Blue's only argument he actually has left claiming Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman. As we know, Blue's only real, solid argument he ever made was taking the Earth moving example as the base, and saying Wonder Woman became stronger while Superman was powered-down. Without actually showing proof of Wonder Woman having a power-up, no proof of Superman having a power-down, and only one bit of murky evidence that actually contradicts something he would later argue. But, after looking at some scans, and doing research, I can say with confidence that the one example he had to claim Superman had been powered down is completely and utterly wrong.
First-off, the moon Callisto is actually rather large. It's one of the largest known celestial bodies in our Solar System that is neither a star nor a planet. It's much larger than our own Moon, it's larger than Pluto or any of the Dwarf Planets, and if it had the right orbital situation, it'd likely be a planet itself.
But there's some pretty important extenuating circumstances about why the Kryptonians can't just slow it down. It's going at some pretty darn fast speeds, minimum of near-light by my calculations, and is encased in a "relativistic field." Which I'm gonna guess will keep it's momentum going, so it still has "propulsion," not just going through on it's own left-over momentum.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/11-1.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/12-5.jpg
"Rao knows how much speed and g-force we're up against."
So yeah, failing to slow-down an object the size of a small planet going at some pretty insane speeds isn't exactly a bad showing, or sign of a power-down, and in fact would require way, way more effort than the barely moving the Earth they did in JLA #75.
So, it's been established that, yes, all the examples from 2002 and earlier of Superman being proven to be stronger than Wonder Woman still count, because pretty much every single example he can try to brush-off as, "Diana's become stronger since" you can say the same for Superman. His feats are still better than anything I've seen him or anybody present for Wonder Woman(even Golden Age Wonder Woman), and yes, better. Not just more numerous. There's nothing showing Superman became weaker, and if anything there's evidence he got even more powerful, but I don't recall any actual scans showing Wonder Woman being stronger, nor are any of her biggest feats not shared at least with Superman. And yes, we do have multiple examples so far from the 2003-2011 period that he claims Diana was stronger in, but fails to actually show evidence.
Here are the examples of Superman showing directly or comparatively to be stronger than Diana in the 2003-2011 period.
SUPERMAN/BATMAN #10: Diana punches one of the Doomsday-based animates. She knocks it back, but otherwise doesn't harm it. Superman on the other hand breaks it's face with a punch(no pun intended).
SUPERGIRL #5: We have both Diana and Kal each punching one of the Karas. Wonder Woman uses a more powerful technique than Superman, but still is less effective. Superman draws blood, Wonder Woman does not.
SUPERMAN/BATMAN #24: We have Superman pull Darkseid from The Source Wall single handedly. When Kara needs to pull Kal from it(I think in the following issue), she requires the help of Power Girl(who by Diana's own words is AT LEAST as strong as Wonder Woman), Cir-El, Linda Danvers and a Silver Age-style Kara.
SUPERMAN/BATMAN #33(I think): Power Girl(who by Diana's own words is AT LEAST as strong as Wonder Woman), Martian Manhunter(who Blue also wrongly believes is stronger than Superman), Kilowog(a Green Lantern with superhuman strength), Ultra, a bunch of Blackrock-enhanced humans, and more, all attempt to restrain Sueprman. He still gets free.
INFINITE CRISIS #1: Superman's first punch against Mongul is more effective than Diana slashing him with a sword using both hands, then he catches her blade strike stopping her dead-on(no pun intended) when she tries to kill Mongul.
He very decisively overpowered her twice during the SACRIFICE storyline, one of them showing to be FAR stronger than her.
We also have the Titus example from the last JLA CLASSIFIED storyline. I recall Superman's punches had more effect than the one time Wonder Woman actually attacked Titus(with a kick), instead of using the lasso to try and restrain him. The fight from 10TH CIRCLE in JLA also could be used as evidence, as it was Crucifer through Superman said the two of them were equal in raw power(or whatever it was) even though Superman was likely weakened. And she still didn't better than ok against him(don't try justifying it as she didn't want to harm him because of the mind control, Blue. He was still holding back despite the mind control, so he was double handicapped on top of likely being weakened. And don't try to bring-up the other vampires. They weren't THAT strong, Batman handled one pretty easily, so either they were little more than a distraction or it actually reflects rather badly on Diana to try and argue they were a big problem). Also, the Omac comparison might be evidence as well. The Omac fight Superman had that actually has Superman engaging without distraction and not playing around with the Omacs anymore is a lot more impressive strength-wise than anything I saw of for Wonder Woman fighting them.
Really, there was never a case to begin with, but this has just made it worse for those who somehow believe Wonder Woman is even close to Superman, let alone stronger.
And thanks to Abhi for the scans.
Salsa.
Clever argument, decent point.
Obviously, I don't agree.
Problems:
1) Both Karas have been bleeding from mouth and nose all throughout SG5 and the previous two issues.
2) You're ignoring the fact that most knockout punches, whether in comics, real-life, the boxing ring, or pretty much anyplace any average person has experience with, are not lip-splitting ones.
3) You're calling "one-shot" what is actually 3 or 4 or more on Superman's part. English doesn't work quite like that.
I'm shorter on time on the weekends than I generally am Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays, as I've stated before, as can be gathered from my posting history even in this thread. I'll get to some of the other stuff when the chance presents.
I'll illustrate point #3 with the few minutes I have left today, though:
This, again, is Wonder Woman's only deliberate attack against Light Kara during Supergirl #5:
It's well and good to compare Superman's skirmish and Wondy's against either of the Kara twins, but you get a VERY different perspective if you actually look at how many attacks the one hero uses against the other in the story and the response of either Kara afterwards.
Dark Kara still challenges Superman to fight and prove his point.
Light Kara, seemingly wanting no more a fight with Diana, wisely keeps her mouth shut.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa.Clever argument, decent point.
Obviously, I don't agree.
Well, DUH. Every single time you do everything you can to argue it doesn't count. Even when it's clear and un-refutable. That's when you grasp at straws.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Problems:1) Both Karas have been bleeding from mouth and nose all throughout SG5 and the previous two issues.
Actually, everybody who struck her BUT Wonder Woman caused either Kara to bleed. If anything, this just reinforces the point. Luthor in his armor(even if he had Kryptonite), the Karas themselves, Superman and even Martian Manhunter all caused at least one of the Karas to bleed. There wasn't inconsistency. If anything, this just shows that even Martian Manhunter hits harder, at least under Loeb. You might have a point if we were comparing two completely separate comics, but we're talking the same issue. If I were you, I'd actually have hoped nobody notices this point you made, instead of bringing it up like it actually helps the argument you're making.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
2) You're ignoring the fact that most knockout punches, whether in comics, real-life, the boxing ring, or pretty much anyplace any average person has experience with, are not lip-splitting ones.
It doesn't change the fact that his punch had more effect and by-passed Kara's invulnerability, compared to Wonder Woman's punch. And WW used a more powerful technique, to boot.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
3) You're calling "one-shot" what is actually 3 or 4 or more on Superman's part. English doesn't work quite like that.
I talked to Salsa off the site about this, and he was actually using semi-sarcasm on "one-shot" because it wasn't actually clear if either Kara was incapacitated or just stunned. I think it was Q who claimed Wonder Woman has one-shot Supergirl, and he never answered when asked, but I know Salsa has seen someone claim that scene was a one-shot before, so he decided to presume that was the example in his argument. I also believe he used quotation marks to indicate sarcasm. As for the 3 or more argument you're making, seriously flawed, but I'll get to that later.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm shorter on time on the weekends than I generally am Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays, as I've stated before, as can be gathered from my posting history even in this thread. I'll get to some of the other stuff when the chance presents.
.....but, it's FRIday. Not Saturday or Sunday.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'll illustrate point #3 with the few minutes I have left today, though:This, again, is Wonder Woman's only deliberate attack against Light Kara during Supergirl #5:
First problem right there, it was never clear if Dark Kara actually switched costumes. Superman was never sure, and there were some things said that implied Dark Kara just said it as a ruse. Which brings into question your argument that normal Supergirl's "heart just wasn't in it."
As for your argument that Superman "4 shot her," Superman only got in the heat vision blast and one punch before the final punch. If you pay attention, one of the attacks you cite doesn't actually look like he connects with a punch, the supposed third attack you're arguing. Second, she has some time to recover between the first punch and his final blow. It looks like Diana's Kara had less time than Kal's did. And third, your argument is invalid because Diana's Kara took just as much damage from Superman before Diana's attack as Kal's Kara did. So even if Diana's Kara was incapacitated, it was only because the stronger, more powerful Superman softened her up.
And to top it off, if you look at the two Kara's faces, it further argues that Superman's punch had more of an effect. Look at Diana's Kara.
Here, it looks more like Kara's face is grimacing, like she's mad or frustrated. Now, compared to Superman's attack--
Kara here doesn't look that way. It looks like she's been seriously stunned, going limp.
Now, normally I would just say that this isn't the strongest case, but since you make such a big deal about knowing the artist as well as the writer, and it happens in the very same issue by the same writer and artist, by your own standards this is vital, as well as the fact that Wonder Woman was the only one who struck a Kara and didn't make her bleed. Same artist, using facial expression and blood splatter to show who's effected more.
The case is closed. Superman's punch clearly had more effect on his Kara than Diana's did, and he used an inferior technique. And there's no way you can try and argue that he struck his Kara more than Diana struck her's, 'cuz Superman had attacked Diana's Kara beforehand just as many times, and if anything, his Kara had more recovery time before the final blow than Diana's did. End of discussion, Jeph Loeb clearly knows Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman.
I should also note that the very first punch Superman hits regular suit Kara(I don't think they actually swapped costumes, but it's not 100% clear) after the heat vision attack drew blood.
s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Supergirl-Dark%20Kara/Superman-Wonder%20Woman/?action=view¤t=22.jpg
Dark suit Kara, we don't see blood, but looking at the angle, I doubt we'd see it if he did.
Also worth noting, Superman actually attacked dark suit Kara more than regular suit Kara. So Superman hit dark suit Kara, hit visioned her, then punched her again before Diana got her shot in.
And it appears that she's wiping blood from her mouth, although this isn't 100% clear, I'd say it's the most likely outcome.
So, Superman can draw blood from either Kara with only one punch(heat vision hurt, but it was on the chest, not the face, so there's no argument it made her more vulnerable to cuts), Diana can't seem to do more than knock-back Kara with an overhand right. And, as we know, Superman holds back to the point that he subconsciously reduces his powers.
While I say I closed the case already, this is just icing on the cake.
Yes I was using "one shot" because neither Kara was incapacitated.
And using the word "one shot" is too much.
Also, Blue, You seem to forget or oversee that Superman basically (like Delta said) already soften up Dark Kara on that issue.
Plus you have this scan
Loeb explains why Supergirl might seem stronger.
And besides that You have this UNDER LOEB
VS THIS
And You also have this
Usually a depiction of a person catching a punch like that means the character catching the punch has some advantage over the other.
At this point, at least You have to admit that your theory of Supergirl being more powerful than Superman is wrong.
Unless you can bring up evidence that Superman does not regulate his power because of his upbringing and Kara does, which you won't be able to find.
So at least you have to concede that your Supergirl's theory is wrong.
Plus you have this other.
Superman manages 5 kryptonians
Granted this was done under another writer and artist
Also then compare how WW performs vs DD, both Superman and WW stop holding back and is not like Superman is super effective, but he end up looking better once more.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Yes I was using "one shot" because neither Kara was incapacitated.And using the word "one shot" is too much.
Also, Blue, You seem to forget or oversee that Superman basically (like Delta said) already soften up Dark Kara on that issue.
Plus you have this scan
Loeb explains why Supergirl might seem stronger.
And besides that You have this UNDER LOEB
VS THIS
And You also have this
Usually a depiction of a person catching a punch like that means the character catching the punch has some advantage over the other.
At this point, at least You have to admit that your theory of Supergirl being more powerful than Superman is wrong.
Unless you can bring up evidence that Superman does not regulate his power because of his upbringing and Kara does, which you won't be able to find.
So at least you have to concede that your Supergirl's theory is wrong.
Plus you have this other.
Superman manages 5 kryptonians
Granted this was done under another writer and artist
Also then compare how WW performs vs DD, both Superman and WW stop holding back and is not like Superman is super effective, but he end up looking better once more.
Forgot about the Superman catching Kara's punch part. And you include the 5 Kryptonian Soldiers, but don't include Non and Ursa restraining him and he throws them off too? I'd think a full-grown woman who's a soldier and the Kryptonian equivalent of genetic freaks like Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin would each individually be stronger than a 16 year old girl.
Oh and you forget? DOOMSDAY WARS doesn't count because it was before 2003. FAIL!! Despite the facts that Superman being powered down has been debunked, was never was a strong argument to begin with and Blue has provided no actual evidence of Wonder Woman having a power-up or that she got stronger.
Originally posted by Delta1938
DOOMSDAY WARS doesn't count because it was before 2003. FAIL!!
That's actually just about what I was thinking.
The only real difference is that I'd use the term "Straw Man" in place of "Fail".
For I posted the following more than 30 pages ago in this thread, which you can verify by clicking the link at the bottom:
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Don't know what standard you're using for your Superman/Wonder Woman comparison ...Mine is more or less this, in regards to physical strength: Unifying just about EVERY thing I know about either character, their background, how their powers work, their character limitations, plot limitations, overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights, competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings, origins, and basic concepts, Wonder Woman 2003-2011 would win an armwrestling match against Superman, and nearly any other contest that involved pure physical strength.
Note that one primary reason for the dates are that I did not start forming a significant DC reading catalogue until around 2004.
Most of my experience of either Superman or Wonder Woman is from those dates or thereabouts. Wonder Woman pre-2003 or so may very well be a far less impressive being than the one we've had the past decade.
