Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Originally posted by -Pr-
How can you claim to make a concrete argument, though, when you're leaving out almost twenty years of feats?

You don't think you're at a disadvantage, or working with an incomplete picture?

Because you're essentially talking about different characters over the course of the years, P.R.

John Byrne Superman, for instance, is from a Krypton where, apparently, there was a genetic failsafe in the population. Leave Krypton and you die.

Would it be possible to have any other Kryptonian from such a place?

The presence of other Kryptonians means that you had to drastically change the rules of how Superman and related beings operate.

Wonder Woman? Her hands are bleeding from her own rope in that scan Delta shows, merely from trying to resist the force of something that cannot so much as un-moor a signpost.
Can there be any relation between that woman and the one that we're shown in JLA several years later pulling the entire planet EARTH back into orbit?

There are many other examples like that, exposing inconsistencies that can't really be used to support the idea that character x in 1982 is character x in 1992 is character x in 2002 is character x in 2012.

But these characters are fairly stable for more limited periods, usually defined by what creative teams depict as normalcy for that era.

More on this later.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Because you're essentially talking about different characters over the course of the years, P.R.

John Byrne Superman, for instance, is from a Krypton where, apparently, there was a genetic failsafe in the population. Leave Krypton and you die.

Would it be possible to have any other Kryptonian from such a place?

The presence of other Kryptonians means that you had to drastically change the rules of how Superman and related beings operate.

Wonder Woman? Her hands are bleeding from her own rope in that scan Delta shows, merely from trying to resist the force of something that cannot so much as un-moor a signpost.
Can there be any relation between that woman and the one that we're shown in JLA several years later pulling the entire planet EARTH back into orbit?

There are many other examples like that, exposing inconsistencies that can't really be used to support the idea that character x in 1982 is character x in 1992 is character x in 2002 is character x in 2012.

But these characters are fairly stable for more limited periods, usually defined by what creative teams depict as normalcy for that era.

More on this later.

That's not how dc looks at it though. From 1986 until 2011, it was the same guy. Yes, there were retcons to an extent, but it was all still the same man at the end of the day.

What you're talking about is writing inconsistencies, but then again that's why we sort through it to get a general idea of a character's power level.

The Superman in 2010 on New Krypton is the same Superman that fought Superboy Prime in IC. That Superman is the same Superman tat fought Imperiex's forces during Our Worlds at War. And so on and so forth.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That's actually just about what I was thinking.

The only real difference is that I'd use the term "Straw Man" in place of "Fail".

Thanks for leaving-out this part.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Despite the facts that Superman being powered down has been debunked, was never was a strong argument to begin with and Blue has provided no actual evidence of Wonder Woman having a power-up or that she got stronger.

Kinda important.

Also, you're not one to accuse others of strawmen. Clearly one of the tactics you're using to argue your unsubstantiated case is the claim of Wonder Woman>Supergirl>Superman when it comes to strength. It's been clearly proven that it's Superman who's stronger, not Supergirl. She only appeared to be more powerful due to he grew-up having to restrain his powers and she essentially just had them one day.

And I haven't really seen anything to truly indicate that Wonder Woman IS stronger than Supergirl. The Omac comparison is the only solid example I've ever seen, and it's actually manipulated or misinterpreted. The Diana throwing off all those Omacs off her? They weren't using leverage or even any real strength like with Supergirl. What Diana did was no more impressive than if a bunch of normal humans had dogpiled her and she threw them off, when you actually pay attention instead of see it presented as more than it is. Supergirl, on the other hand, was actually restrained by the Omacs. They each used a couple arms to grab each of her arms, likely had leverage, but still she overcame their restraint attempt. That's more impressive than what I saw Diana do. While I haven't decided who was stronger Pre-FLASHPOINT, the Omac comparison sure as Hell isn't evidence that Wonder Woman's stronger.

But this doesn't change the fact that you've been proven wrong that Supergirl is stronger than Superman, and are now trying to divert attention. You also used a strawman when I pointed-out Superman was rather calm and casual when he stopped Diana's charge then caught her punch during the FOR TOMORROW fight. You brought-up if being calm meant being stronger, then that would mean Darkseid is stronger, likely a fair bit, than Superman because he rarely loses his composure, and stated but you have a feeling I wouldn't admit that. I actually do think Darkseid is stronger, but even if I didn't, it's still irrelevant. I was referring to Superman being completely calm yet still stopping her full body's momentum by grabbing her wrist when she charged, and by catching her punch casually. Don't know if Darkseid's ever done anything like that to Superman, but even if he has, there's a complete and total difference between not being angry and being nonchalant and treating your opponent like she's not even a threat.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
For I posted the following more than 30 pages ago in this thread, which you can verify by clicking the link at the bottom:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Don't know what standard you're using for your Superman/Wonder Woman comparison ...

Mine is more or less this, in regards to physical strength: Unifying just about EVERY thing I know about either character, their background, how their powers work, their character limitations, plot limitations, overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights, competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings, origins, and basic concepts, Wonder Woman 2003-2011 would win an armwrestling match against Superman, and nearly any other contest that involved pure physical strength.

Note that one primary reason for the dates are that I did not start forming a significant DC reading catalogue until around 2004.

Most of my experience of either Superman or Wonder Woman is from those dates or thereabouts. Wonder Woman pre-2003 or so may very well be a far less impressive being than the one we've had the past decade.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=6

This being the reason just shows either how ignorant you are of Superman, the wishful thinking you have for Wonder Woman, or both.

Their background? I assume you mean their origins? That either is irrelevant, or it's another way of saying how their powers work. So either way, this is simply an argument to try and pad your reason why you wrongly think she's stronger.

Character and plot limitations? What the Hell do you mean by these? If anything, it hurts your argument. It's already been established that Superman's subconsciously regulates his powers. He can be powerless if he thinks he is, in fact. So in all reality, he theoretically has no limits, and has met this actually. What is it that you somehow think works in Diana's favor here?

How their powers work? Unless you count Torquasm Vo/Rao, his either directly or indirectly comes from solar energy enhancing his physiology. Her's comes from being given her powers by the gods. On paper, she should be stronger. In practice, that's clearly not the case. But I'll use another example. OK, Hercules is supposed to be relatively close to her in strength, right? Well Captain Marvel has the Strength Of Hercules. Only, Captain Marvel's attributes are augmented by Zeus. See here, although I'm not sure what issue this is from, it looks early Post-CRISIS.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i20/panthergod/Comics/wf254--shazampower3.jpg

"But I have the POWER OF ZEUS--the father of the gods. That power ADDS to my others, giving me the wisdom of Solomon AND Zeus--the strength of Hercules AND Zeus--"

So, if this is correct, then Captain Marvel is actually stronger than Wonder Woman going purely by origin/background/power source. So, if Wonder Woman truly is stronger than Superman, then Captain Marvel should be much stronger than Superman. But is he? Doesn't look like it here in POWER OF SHAZAM! #46.

They lock arms for a couple of panels, doesn't look like Captain Marvel is stronger there. Oh, but here's shortly after that, when they decide to arm wrestle.

Note that in the first panel, Captain Marvel says, "And I'm thinking you can't BEAT the strength of HERCULES and ATLAS combined!" So, Captain Marvel is actually making himself even STRONGER than normal, so he has the strength of Hercules augmented by both the strength of Zeus AND Atlas. So, surely, if Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman, and Captain Marvel is stronger than Wonder Woman, and Captain Marvel is boosting his strength even further, then Captain Marvel will EASILY beat Superman, right? Right? RIIIIIGHT?

WRONG. Now, I'm not at all trying to mislead people here, nor am I misinterpreting what happened. I know the reason Superman beat Captain Marvel in this arm wrestling contest is due to Freddy and Marry power-sharing with him. But there's two very important details. One: Going by background and how the powers work, it's clear that Captain Marvel is stronger than Wonder Woman. And, he's further increasing his strength by adding Atlas' strength to that of Hercules and Zeus, so the strength gap between Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel is even greater here. Yet, Captain Marvel could do no more than stalemate Superman in arm wrestling before his strength was divided.

And, most importantly, this was before Superman took Mongul Junior's training to boost overcome the mental blocks that limited his powers. What does this mean? This means that Captain Marvel, boosted beyond normal, was only able to stalemate a handicapped Superman, meaning Superman's even stronger than an abnormally strong Captain Marvel, or a normal strength Captain Marvel who's stronger than Wonder Woman. So, Superman>Atlas-Augmented-Captain Marvel>Normal Captain Marvel>Wonder Woman.

(TO BE CONTINUED)

And here we have Superman WEAKENED--

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/Proof%20Of%20Energy%20Drain%20And%20Kryptonite%20Exposure/

--still showing to be stronger than Captain Marvel, catching his punch.

But another reason I brought-up Captain Marvel? The fact that his power source is essentially the same as Wonder Woman's. Given power from the gods and able to tap their virtually limitless energy. I've seen someone argue before that this means that Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman should have far more power than an alien empowered by a single star. Yet, we do not see this as the case. Nor is it really the case that Superman's limited to the power source of that single star. Just about every feat is much greater than the comparatively limited amount of energy his body(small area) absorbs from the sunlight filtered through Earth's atmosphere. When he was hit with red solar energy numerous times, to the point his opponent(who had owned Batman piloting a Kryptonian battlesuit, a pretty impressive feat) was in shock, saying it was not possible, Superman's virtually drained of yellow sunlight, but still Superman put-up a fight. During OUR WORLDS AT WAR, he had no help moving Warworld(the help he had wasn't moving Warworld, but a temporal Boom Tube being made so he was able to send it to the beginning of time thus starting the Big Bang). Yes, he was amped by having been inside the Sun to the point he was actually emitting intense enough energy that he was surrounded by plasma like a star. But, he didn't drain the Sun of all it's energy. Yet he was still able to push a Dwarf Planet against engines that send a planet at Faster-Than-Light speeds, when it had a virtually limitless supply of energy, Imperiex Prime's energy that had been taken from many GALAXIES. And I believe the Milky Way Galaxy contains 100 million stars. Even if we pretend it was less than a galaxy and was 1 million stars, he was only amped by less than the full energy of a single star, yet did not exhaust his reserves and pushed that planet through. His actual power source clearly does not fit what you appear to think should limit him.

Overall performance against relatively objective tests like lifting known weights? What's Wonder Woman's best feat from that period? I don't know, you couldn't even provide an actual feat for her. Superman, on the other hand, has this. JLA #77.

And it's not even his best feat of strength from that period. I know what you've tried to argue. "Oh it wasn't that heavy, oh, it was a durability feat, not a strength feat, oh, it was sitting on a desk like a paperweight." These are all strawmen. The reason it was sitting like it was is due to, oh, the magnetic field keeping it contained? If it not weighing anything down was an legitimate argument that it wasn't very heavy, then why was it even a threat at all? Clearly if it sitting there was proof of it being so light, then it wouldn't have been a threat to anybody. But neither is the case, it sat because it was contained until the AI lost control. And how it dealt with civilizations is another strawman; the AI was manipulating the black hole the entire time. Considering this was a collapsed star, it's a lot larger than Earth.

And you trying to argue that Diana was ready to move the Earth and Superman needed some time was also pointless. Superman had been a corpse or just bones in a costume underground for a few millennia. Which makes your attempt to act like Superman would still be absorbing energy even more desperate. I mean seriously, you think Superman would've been absorbing energy the entire time? If his remains were absorbing it for a few thousand years while they laid around not expending any of it, don't you think he would've been able to casually move Earth on his own? No, he needed some time in the Sun to get back to normal. And considering he performed a comparable feat(when taking all context into consideration) I think the fact that they barely moved it even though he had help is proof that Superman was at less than peak strength even after a few minutes standing in the Sun.

But what else do we have for Superman? FINAL CRISIS: SUPERMAN BEYOND #1.

Yep, lifting the infinite paged book. What exactly has Diana lifted in the 2003-2011 time period? You keep saying she's stronger, and you're saying one of the reasons is comparison of feats with known weights. Well, infinite pages makes the weight known; meaning infinite weight. By comparison, when Diana helped Superman slow down Spectre's "weight of eternity," all they could do at the time was slow it down, even if you attribute each could have done the same amount of weight since half of infinity is still infinity. Superman and I think it was Earth-5 Captain Marvel actually lift the book, making it even more impressive. And there are other examples that are insane that I could bring-up as well, but I think those will cover the lifting category. One of them is similar to the Spectre example with Wonder Woman, only One: More impressive, and Two: Superman did it on his own.

Competitions against each other? I'm REALLY curious about what you have to say here, 'cuz you haven't shown a SINGLE example. Here's a few for Superman, though. SUPERMAN(Volume Two) #211.

Stops her full body momentum when she charges him by grabbing her wrist and stopping her dead-on.

Then catches her punch when she's clearly winding-up for it. I've seen your attempts to justify this doesn't really prove anything before. They've not convincing, and it's too bad that there's other examples that support this showing. Like this.

Dammit Delta.

You posted before me 😠

ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #642-WONDER WOMAN(Volume Two) #219.

Yep, Superman overpowers Diana here. If I only had the scan from WONDER WOMAN #219, you'd have a point. BUT, it's a continuation of the end of ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #642. Which both are from the same writer. Both issues have multiple different artists, but one of the artists worked on both issues. But even if each scene is done by someone else, who cares? The page from WW 219 clearly a continuation of where AOS #642 left-off, and by the same writer, so he clearly intended Superman to overpower and restrain Wonder Woman. No getting out of this one. Then we have this. WONDER WOMAN(Volume Two) #219.

Yep, I know you hate this. But it doesn't change the fact that Superman grabs her by the throat with both hands, and she canNOT, I repeat NOT, break his grip, despite attempting a technique that allows one to break the grip of a STRONGER opponent. When the Pokolistian General Zod did this to Superman, he was able to break the grip. When Superman was possessed by Eclipso for the second time and did this choke to Captain Marvel, he was able to break the grip. But when Superman did this to Wonder Woman, she could not break his grip. Which I would say further proves that Captain Marvel is stronger than Wonder Woman. But I digress. These two are blatant, decisive, and irrefutable examples of Superman clearly overpowering Wonder Woman. But they're not the only two from the 2003-2011 time period. INFINITE CRISIS #1.

Diana attempts to murder(yes, murder; the fight's over, so she can't claim self-defense, and the situation was NOTHING like when she killed Maxwell Lord) Mongul, Superman stops her by grabbing her sword slice dead-cold(no pun intended). Four clear examples of him either overpowering her or otherwise showing to be stronger, all within the 2003-2011 period you gave the impression there was no evidence he was stronger. Of course, these examples aren't evidence, they're undeniable proof.

Competition against mutual foes? Do you REALLY want to go there? This won't end well for you. SUPERMAN/BATMAN #10.

Here, Diana punches one of the Doomsday-based animates Doctor Bedlam created based off Doomsday's DNA(assumed to be the case). She doesn't do all that much more than knock it back. Superman on the other hand--

--creates a clear line of serious damage through it's body to it's face with one uppercut. And here's a direct comparison against Mongul.

Here's one example of them in the same exact issue against Mongul. INFINITE CRISIS #1.

Yeah, his first punch accomplished a whole lot more than when Diana used BOTH her AND her enchanted(I assume enchanted) sword and, well, cut Mongul a bit but otherwise accomplished nothing. So, Wonder Woman was borderline worthless against Mongul in the act same comic. Same writer, same artist. No legitimate justification to dismiss this one here. And to reinforce that, here's Superman, effected by Kryptonite(albeit to an unknown degree) in another comic. SUPERMAN/BATMAN #3.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Mongul/S-B%203/sb3-07.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Mongul/S-B%203/sb3-08.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Mongul/S-B%203/sb3-09.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Mongul/S-B%203/sb3-10.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Mongul/S-B%203/sb3-11.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Mongul/S-B%203/sb3-13.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Mongul/S-B%203/sb3-14.jpg

So, even when effected by Kryptonite, he still looks better than Diana did. You might try to argue that this is because he's more durable, but that's clearly you grasping at straws to try and justify it. He was effected by Kryptonite, and still beat Mongul down, Diana had a sword and might as well not even have been there.

Then, we have the comparative performances against the Karas. SUPERGIRL #5.

Here, this Kara is grimacing like she's mad, and there's no blood.

Here, this Kara's face is different, it looks like she's going limp, like she's blacked out. And we see Superman causes her to bleed, unlike Diana. You could try and spin the facial expression like it doesn't count, but since you make such a big deal about making sure the writer AND artist of the comic is known, by your own standards the facial reaction comparison is clear evidence of intent. And you tried to justify the bleeding doesn't count, that she bleed all through-out the issue and the previous issue. Problem. Not only do we bring back up the same artist/same writer/same comic point, but this actually HURTS your argument. Everybody who struck one of the Karas BUT Wonder Woman was able to make the Kara bleed. And that's actually consistent through-out #4-#5. So, nope, you can't legitimately justify this one as it doesn't count.

And, we have Titus. JLA villain, really only appeared in a single storyline. If you see scans that have two different but similar looking guys, it's not a mistake. Both are Titus. The storyline shows Titus in modern times and flashes back to early in JLA history when he was different looking and less powerful. Superman fought Titus both times, but Wonder Woman only faced him in modern times. Since the storyline for both eras is practically one long fight scene, I'm just going to show various that are relevant solely to the debate(in order) from JLA CLASSIFIED #50-#54.

Here's the first time Superman attacks the modern-day Titus. As you can see, both his blows break chunks of him.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Titus/JLAClassified50019.jpg

When Wonder Woman first engages Titus, she goes for the lasso. In fact, almost all of her engagements are merely trying to restrain him using the lasso, instead of strike him. I wonder why? Maybe because she knows that she'll be outclassed? I know you used a similar argument when Superman took-down the JLA team during SACRIFICE, but the narrative boxes clearly indicated Superman wasn't waiting for Diana to leave, that he came to the belief everybody else as controlled just as she was leaving. But here we go.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Titus/JLAClassified50020.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Titus/JLAClassified52010.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Titus/JLAClassified52011.jpg

As you can see above, she just tries to restrain him again, but once again Superman's strike does damage to Titus.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Titus/JLAClassified52020.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Titus/JLAClassified52021.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Titus/JLAClassified52022.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Titus/JLAClassified54007.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Titus/JLAClassified54009.jpg

That's the last of the scans that are relevant to who's stronger. As you can see, the one time Wonder Woman actually struck Titus, a drop kick, had no effect on him whatsoever, despite the fact that both Superman and Martian Manhunter were blasting him too. The only other time Diana struck him, and the ONLY time it had an actual effect, she did a simultaneous punch with Superman. Superman, on the other hand, did have an effect every single time he struck Titus, many of them actually breaking chunks off him. Clearly Superman was the stronger of the two here.

I've just given you NUMEROUS examples of Superman showing to be stronger than Wonder Woman, either overpowering her(or otherwise showing to be stronger than her in a direct confrontation) or showing to be stronger against a common opponent. Plus, two major feats to compare whatever you bring-up for Diana to. All from the 2003-2011 time period you claim she's stronger than him. Where, exactly, is your evidence? Oh, that's right. It's never been shown. You try to justify that Superman has a lot more appearances. Strawman. If Wonder Woman truly was stronger than him, you'd be able to show the proof despite her fewer appearances. That's just an excuse to justify your lack of evidence. All your other examples? Irrelevant and in a few cases looks like you're just reiterating them in a different way to pad your "argument."

And your whole argument of he was powered-down while she was powered-up? Nope, doesn't cut it. I provided the proof that your shaky-at-best example to claim he was powered down had serious extenuating circumstances you left-out, and you've shown NOTHING to actually indicate she became stronger.

If there's actually examples you've read, but don't have scans, tell me the issue references. I WILL do my best to get a hold of them, and if I find them, promise I'll upload them for you. If you can't do this, you prove that your entire argument is made because you WANT her to be stronger, but have nothing to back it.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Dammit Delta.

You posted before me 😠

😮 😄 Why ya 😠 bro? Why ya 😠 bro? Why ya-why ya-why ya-why ya 😠 bro? 💃 😆 🤣

Anyways, you can still make your argument. You have access to more fights and feats than I do. You can even reuse examples I already gave without me accusing you of plagiarism.

'Cuz I'm bored, I thought I'd go with a few false statements you've made in the past, Blue. That I recall from the DC boards.

When I showed how Wonder Woman barely survived against Superman in WONDER WOMAN(Volume Two) #175, you tried to dismiss this both on the grounds of Wonder Woman became more powerful since, and by claiming Superman had the strength of Doomsday on top of it. This is purely wishful thinking on the side of Wonder Woman fanboyism. It's ridiculous and insane to think she could've accomplished anything but dying if he truly had that combined strength, regardless of if he were mentally handicapped from it or not. Unfortunately I don't have the issue, but she did ok at best against that synthetic Doomsday duplicate in one of her issues. It was NOT a clone, it was made of some experimental material, and made to mimic Doomsday like a, I guess computer simulation made physical? It was being inadvertently controlled by an AI based on the personality and memories of a deceased teenager, who thought he was playing a video game. Anyways, she did ok at best. She said it was stronger than Superman and growing stronger, but this isn't the best argument. To my knowledge, her only experience was against a holding back, Pre-DOS(meaning no power-up) Superman, so she wouldn't really know. Considering what Doomsday did to the JLA team during DOS, I don't see Wonder Woman doing as well as she did against the real Doomsday as she did against the copy, and she didn't even do well then. But, here's the real kicker. Here's how she did against Superman in 2000, a year before the WW #175 fight.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/A%20LEAGUE%20OF%20ONE/

Not very well, in all reality. And Superman was being rather casual with her. And she said she knew she couldn't beat him. How well did she do against the real Doomsday?

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/DOOMSDAY%20WARS/1-JLA%20VS%20Doomsday/

Even worse. And to reinforce the point that she's not a match for Doomsday(let alone Superman+Doomsday strength combined), this fight was when Brainiac was "possessing" Doomsday. This is important for two reasons. One: It was clear he was toying with her(as well as the rest of the JLA). Several times in this storyline, it was shown that Brainiac was relishing the fact that he now had extreme physical might to go with his intellect, technology and psionic powers, and loved being able to physically engage Superman in a fight. So he was obviously having fun with Diana in that fight. And Two: Doomsday has a Hulk-like dynamic strength, also fueled by rage. Well, since Brainiac is the pilot, and having fun, she was pretty much facing a baseline Doomsday.

So, what does this mean? psh If she by her own admission couldn't beat Superman one-on-one and looked pretty bad despite she started it off with a sneak-attack and he was casual when he fought back(and took her down quickly), she does ok at best against a cheap copy of Doomsday and looks even worse against the real Doomsday who's at baseline strength and TOYING WITH HER, how exactly would she have a prayer of survive a minute against an enraged, rampaging Superman enhanced with Doomsday's strength? She wouldn't. Oh, and it matters not that those two examples aren't from 2003-2011. Not only is that a flimsy and desperate argument, but I'm merely pointing to one of your ignorant claims to try and dismiss one of the showings where Superman is blatantly superior to Wonder Woman, other than it was pre-2003.

Another claim you made is Martian Manhunter is stronger than Superman. I'm sure this is based on a similar "logic" of he was part of the Earth-moving example, and your desperate hope that Superman was powered-down after it. Although, your only argument has been proven wrong. But it's still worth pointing-out a couple of examples that further prove this claim wrong.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Relative%20Strength/Martian%20Manhunter/JLA%20119/

If J'Onn's stronger, why is it he can only get Superman into that bad position when Superman's trying to get Martian Manhunter to fight Despero's control, then overcomes J'Onn's restraint attempt, from this inferior position, and well overpowers J'Onn? I'll tell you why. The reason why J'Onn couldn't keep it up after Superman got serious is because Superman is much stronger than J'Onn. SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF TOMORROW was just one of the showings, no matter how much you try and try and try to prove Superman truly was Sun-Amped there. And it wouldn't be the only example of J'Onn and others COMBINED still looking weaker than Superman. Like here.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Relative%20Strength/Martian%20Manhunter/S-B%2033/

I do have to thank you though, Blue. Due to all your claims and dismissals you've forced me to overhaul my Photobucke and it's become much, much more manageable in both finding the proper examples as well as more easily having the proper places to upload new scans. Now getting what I need or properly adding new stuff is quick and easy, like Tito Ortiz's wife.

Originally posted by Delta1938
😮 😄 Why ya 😠 bro? Why ya 😠 bro? Why ya-why ya-why ya-why ya 😠 bro? 💃 😆 🤣

Anyways, you can still make your argument. You have access to more fights and feats than I do. You can even reuse examples I already gave without me accusing you of plagiarism.

Nah! You did a pretty good job and I don't think of anything more to add, but just in case I will check.

But I think you cover everything.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That's not how dc looks at it though. From 1986 until 2011, it was the same guy. Yes, there were retcons to an extent, but it was all still the same man at the end of the day.

What you're talking about is writing inconsistencies, but then again that's why we sort through it to get a general idea of a character's power level.

The Superman in 2010 on New Krypton is the same Superman that fought Superboy Prime in IC. That Superman is the same Superman tat fought Imperiex's forces during Our Worlds at War. And so on and so forth.

Arguments are based on facts.
Facts necessarily involve stable history.

If you change the history, you change the facts, and scarcely any argument can be sustained after that point.

However, changing history is what a retcon IS.
You can't treat it as something minor.

I'd be interested in your take on the following, for instance.

Hercules versus Superman versus Kingdom Come Superman.
Scan 1 of 3.

Hercules versus Superman versus Kingdom Come Superman.
Scan 2 of 3.

Hercules versus Superman versus Kingdom Come Superman.

Scan 3 of 3.

To follow the kind of logic put forth by Delta about the Supergirl #5 artwork, which Delta has actually NOT examined with any true thorough-ness, visible spilled blood determines the effectiveness of an attack.
And Wonder Woman is supposedly not strong enough to bloody the "good" half of Kara.

We know who Delta thinks is stronger between the cousins; we know who Delta thinks is stronger between Wonder Woman and Superman.
Then what should be the effect of someone weaker than Wonder Woman, who is supposedly not strong enough to bloody Kara, going after the Man of Steel himself?

But we don't get the result Delta's theory predicts, do we?
Our Superman doesn't have the strength to stand against Herc's attack OR the toughness to take it without suffering some very visible damage.

Kingdom Come (KC) Superman does, however.

Why the difference between these two?

Why can't "our" Superman tank a blow from Hercules, Heracles, Herakles, or whatever you want to call him, who, almost by definition, is weaker than Wonder Woman?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Justice Society of America #13, Volume 3
Writer: Geoff Johns
Pencillers: Dale Eaglesham & Alex Ross
Date: February 2008
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Justice_Society_of_America_Vol_3_13

Originally posted by Delta1938

When Wonder Woman first engages Titus, she goes for the lasso. In fact, almost all of her engagements are merely trying to restrain him using the lasso, instead of strike him. I wonder why? Maybe because she knows that she'll be outclassed?

More likely because Wonder Woman normally tries to use the minimum of violence necessary to resolve a situation; avoiding it altogether when possible. This is one of her character traits or limitations I alluded to earlier. Actually, looking at a great many of the books in my collection, restraint, i.e. subduing either via strength and reasoning or binding and calming via her magic lasso, is Diana's primary modus operandi.

You don't read Wonder Woman so you don't know this.

To be fair, however, quite a few writers DO have Wondy going for a more exclusively pseudo-proactive "warrior" approach.
Presumably because that is the sort of thing that sells best among today's audiences.

Titus is quite unfamiliar to me, nor am I aware of having any book he appeared in.

Doubt I've ever read much on him that you yourself did not present, but, in the particular scan you showed, Diana is trying to restrain Titus instead of striking him because she's trying to get information out of him.

She wants to know what happened to Flash.

She TELLS Titus so:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Arguments are based on facts.

It's funny how you say arguments are based on facts, when you have not presented a SINGLE fact whatsoever in your claim that Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman from the 2003-2011 period. All of it has been unsubstantiated opinion, misinterpretation and wishful thinking. Everybody here knows it.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

Facts necessarily involve stable history.

If you change the history, you change the facts, and scarcely any argument can be sustained after that point.

However, changing history is what a retcon IS.
You can't treat it as something minor.

I'd be interested in your take on the following, for instance.

Hercules versus Superman versus Kingdom Come Superman.
Scan 1 of 3.

No, the fact is that Superman is still Superman and Wonder Woman is still Wonder Woman. You try to throw-out 17 years of continuity like it's irrelevant and make-up a story about Wonder Woman's actually stronger in the last 8 years before DCnU and don't back it up with a single example. And the only real argument that ever made any sense AT ALL that you've made is using the Earth moving example from JLA #75 as the measuring stick, and making the faulty claim that Superman's been powered down(which the only example you pointed at, I proved there were extenuating circumstances you either left-out or were unaware of and it's not a bad showing at all) and saying Wonder Woman's been powered-up, without actually showing proof of a power-up nor even examples that she's become stronger. But I've already proven that yes, there's more than enough evidence to prove Superman is still stronger than Wonder Woman even in the time period you claim, and I know there are other examples I hadn't given. So, we don't need to show everything from 1986-2002, but it certainly reinforces the fact that Superman is stronger than her through-out the Pre-DCnU Modern Age.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Hercules versus Superman versus Kingdom Come Superman.

Scan 3 of 3.

To follow the kind of logic put forth by Delta about the Supergirl #5 artwork, which Delta has actually NOT examined with any true thorough-ness, visible spilled blood determines the effectiveness of an attack.
And Wonder Woman is supposedly not strong enough to bloody the "good" half of Kara.

Oh, that's a bunch of bullshit and you know it. I've certainly examined it more thoroughly than you, or just as thoroughly as you but didn't leave-out what hurts my case. Based on some of your examples, arguments of different writers having different opinions(I see this is clearly cited when it helps you but ignored when it hurts you) and your regular habit of specifying both the writer and artist for each issue you give scans from, it's clear that the blood splatter is important here. Same writer, same artist, from the same issue. You pointed-out about "inconsistencies" of the Karas bleeding but actually it was consistent. Wonder Woman was the ONLY one who struck a Kara and didn't draw blood. So since everybody else was, clearly Wonder Woman wasn't hitting hard enough.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
We know who Delta thinks is stronger between the cousins; we know who Delta thinks is stronger between Wonder Woman and Superman.

Wrong. You know I KNOW who is stronger between Superman and Supergirl, and you know I KNOW who is stronger between Wonder Woman and Superman. Please remember this correction, and write accordingly from now on. Although all CAPS isn't required, I merely needed to emphasize your mistake.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Then what should be the effect of someone weaker than Wonder Woman, who is supposedly not strong enough to bloody Kara, going after the Man of Steel himself?

But we don't get the result Delta's theory predicts, do we?
Our Superman doesn't have the strength to stand against Herc's attack OR the toughness to take it without suffering some very visible damage.

Kingdom Come (KC) Superman does, however.

Why the difference between these two?

Why can't "our" Superman tank a blow from Hercules, Heracles, Herakles, or whatever you want to call him, who, almost by definition, is weaker than Wonder Woman?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Justice Society of America #13, Volume 3
Writer: Geoff Johns
Pencillers: Dale Eaglesham & Alex Ross
Date: February 2008
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Justice_Society_of_America_Vol_3_13

Your argument doesn't work here. Hercules elbowed him(elbows are harder than your fist and the tip is a smaller surface, and the actual momentum is about the same as a punch, meaning you focus about the same amount of force on a smaller, harder surface than the hand) and is striking him in a more vulnerable area. Just on that alone, your argument is questionable at best(for you), very well could be invalidated. Not to mention that it's a different writer, which you've pointed-out on occasion when it suits you.

But since you think that Supergirl's stronger than Superman, I believe you'd also think that Supergirl is stronger than Hercules.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Supergirl-Dark%20Kara/Superman-Wonder%20Woman/?action=view&current=25.jpg

Superman tanked THREE punches fine there(looks like a speed-blitz) before Kara's final punch in that scene. Pretty much reinforces my point about Hercules striking a much more vulnerable area with a harder, smaller surface.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
More likely because Wonder Woman normally tries to use the minimum of violence necessary to resolve a situation; avoiding it altogether when possible. This is one of her character traits or limitations I alluded to earlier. Actually, looking at a great many of the books in my collection, restraint, i.e. subduing either via strength and reasoning or binding and calming via her magic lasso, is Diana's primary modus operandi.

You don't read Wonder Woman so you don't know this.

To be fair, however, quite a few writers DO have Wondy going for a more exclusively pseudo-proactive "warrior" approach.
Presumably because that is the sort of thing that sells best among today's audiences.

Through-out the ENTIRE storyline she almost never engages him. You'd have a point if it was only the initial encounter, but through-out the entire storyline when she knows how much of a threat Titus is, she almost never strikes him. I believe she struck him all of twice, and both times it was in addition to others' attacking(once with Superman and her simultaneously punching, the other her drop kicking him while Superman and Martian Manhunter blasted him).

Also, your argument about her character traits, then pointing-out other writers take a different approach with her personality and up the warrior aspect, just reinforces my point. This was in JLA CLASSIFIED, not her own series.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Titus is quite unfamiliar to me, nor am I aware of having any book he appeared in.

Doubt I've ever read much on him that you yourself did not present, but, in the particular scan you showed, Diana is trying to restrain Titus instead of striking him because she's trying to get information out of him.

She wants to know what happened to Flash.

She TELLS Titus so:

As far as I'm aware, Titus only appeared in a single storyline in JLA CASSIFIED #50-#54 I believe it was. He was a god from, somewhere deep in space. I don't think it was ever specified. In that storyline they look at him both in the past(early JLA) and the present. I focused on the present time since that was the only time that both Superman and Wonder Woman fought Titus(Superman had previously fought Titus in the early JLA days, although he wasn't a member at the time).

To follow the kind of logic put forth by Delta about the Supergirl #5 artwork, which Delta has actually NOT examined with any true thorough-ness ...

Originally posted by Delta1938
Oh, that's a bunch of bullshit and you know it. I've certainly examined it more thoroughly than you, or just as thoroughly as you but didn't leave-out what hurts my case.

No, on this score, Delta, the BS is definitely yours.
You haven't actually looked at Supergirl 5 with any thoroughness.

I can PROVE you haven't, by the statements you made several posts ago.

From page 38:

Originally posted by Delta1938

First problem right there, it was never clear if Dark Kara actually switched costumes. Superman was never sure, and there were some things said that implied Dark Kara just said it as a ruse. Which brings into question your argument that normal Supergirl's "heart just wasn't in it."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Delta1938

I should also note that the very first punch Superman hits regular suit Kara (I don't think they actually swapped costumes, but it's not 100% clear) after the heat vision attack drew blood.
[QUOTE]

In actuality, there is almost nothing so clear as the costume switching.
Rarely have I EVER seen a case where artwork was so consistent on one point. But ... only clear when you actually give the artwork a thorough examination.

You've got to be observant about what you read and look at.
Which you are not.

Delta, "Good" Kara is depicted with short hair.

"Bad" Kara is depicted with long hair.

This'll probably be about the easiest thing in the world to show you.

In fact, after I'm done, I don't think you or anyone else will be able to UNsee it.

In fact, it's even consistent across the Supergirl 3 to 5 ARC, not just SG5.

Let's begin with SG3, in fact:

Delta does NOT carefully observe artwork.

The case of 2 Karas. Scan 2.

Delta has NOT thoroughly examined SG5's artwork.

The case of 2 Karas. Scan 3.

Good Kara has short hair.
Bad Kara has long hair.

Delta has NOT thoroughly examined SG5's artwork.

Good Kara has short hair.
Bad Kara has long hair.

They are easy to tell apart -- IF you're actually observant.