Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Originally posted by -Pr-
What about Aquaman?

It SEEMS like he thinks Aquaman shattered the Imperiex Probe's hand when it was separated from the Probe, or possibly was the one to break the hand off the Probe in the first place. At first I thought he talked about just breaking the grip off him, but that doesn't seem to be the case now. But as I pointed-out, if shattering the hand is what he's arguing, either he's wrong, or the material being cut-off from it's power source made it far less durable, since his punch and Wonder Woman's ax swing simultaneously did nothing to the Imperiex Probe.

Although, he's really trying to divert attention from every damn counter-argument he makes to try and discredit the evidence against his claims being proven wrong or a strawman. It says so much that he keeps saying he doesn't have much time to show scans to support his beliefs, yet has so much time to find scans and make strawmen arguments to try and discredit the blatant evidence against his claims.

Originally posted by -Pr-
what about hercules and superman?

He's clearly trying to discredit the comparison Salsa pointed-out from SUPERGIRL #5 where Superman draws blood in his final punch of his Kara but Diana does not do the same. Of course, his example for Hercules bloodying Superman's nose is not an accurate comparison, since the nose is a lot more vulnerable and an elbow strike focuses the force in a smaller, harder area(trust me, I know from experience).

THEN after this was pointed-out, he tried to draw attention from that by focusing on my pointing-out that it wasn't clear whether Kara and Dark Kara really did switch costumes, and he went on showing a bunch of scans of Dark Kara had longer hair before the switch, and blah blah blah that the artist was consistent. And he didn't realize that this totally f*cks his argument against the blood drawing example Salsa pointed-out. If he's arguing consistency proves that the costume switch DID occur, then he must concede that the blood being drawn is a legitimate example of Superman's stronger than Wonder Woman, since everybody BUT Wonder Woman who struck one of the Karas drew blood.

I would not like to focus AWAY from the Kara/dark Kara example until this is clarified.

Based on THIS Evidence and based on the previous Loeb depiction of Batman/Superman comic, is evident that Kara is not stronger than Superman.

And I would like for Blue to prove the opposite or retract his claim.

1.- We know Kara is a rebel teenager LEARNING how to control her power

2.- We know she experienced this powers when she arrives to earth for the 1st time

3.- We know Superman has grown with this powers as early as probably 5 years old.

4.- We know Superman controls his powers and He will regulate this power much better than Kara.

So I will like to see evidence of Kara being stronger than Superman or just completely dismiss this claim and then move into WW stronger than Superman.

Part of blue's reasoning was WW>Kara>Superman

So far I have not seen anything that suggest Kara>Superman other than out of context evidence (not from blue but from other sources i meant)

Evidence up to this point suggest that Superman is stronger than Supergirl

Originally posted by biensalsa

1.- We know Kara is a rebel teenager LEARNING how to control her power

2.- We know she experienced this powers when she arrives to earth for the 1st time

3.- We know Superman has grown with this powers as early as probably 5 years old.

4.- We know Superman controls his powers and He will regulate this power much better than Kara.

So I will like to see evidence of Kara being stronger than Superman or just completely dismiss this claim and then move into WW stronger than Superman.

Part of blue's reasoning was WW>Kara>Superman

Most of the above I would agree with, save #3.
Knowing when Superman got his powers according to Birthright would be good to know.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Most of the above I would agree with, save #3.
Knowing when Superman got his powers according to Birthright would be good to know.

Birthright isn't his canon origin; secret origin is.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Birthright isn't his canon origin; secret origin is.

Not for the time period we're talking about, P.R.

Loeb's Kara was from Birthright's heavy gravity Krypton.

Originally posted by Delta1938

What other theories?

I only saw one other mentioned (her being exposed to more solar energy from the panels before she even arrived on Earth), not "several,"
and by Superman's own words, it didn't even look like it was Batman's theory.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Supergirl/Not%20More%20Powerful/

Batman said he had SEVERAL theories, as I said before, in Superman/Batman #19 (aka Supergirl #Zero).

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not for the time period we're talking about, P.R.

Loeb's Kara was from Birthright's heavy gravity Krypton.

Yes, for the time period we're talking about. Secret Origin is the official post crisis Superman origin, retconning Birthright.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Batman said he had SEVERAL theories, as I said before, in Superman/Batman #19 (aka Supergirl #Zero).

Yes, but how many did he explain?

Originally posted by biensalsa
I would not like to focus AWAY from the Kara/dark Kara example until this is clarified.

Based on THIS Evidence and based on the previous Loeb depiction of Batman/Superman comic, is evident that Kara is not stronger than Superman.

And I would like for Blue to prove the opposite or retract his claim.

1.- We know Kara is a rebel teenager LEARNING how to control her power

2.- We know she experienced this powers when she arrives to earth for the 1st time

3.- We know Superman has grown with this powers as early as probably 5 years old.

4.- We know Superman controls his powers and He will regulate this power much better than Kara.

So I will like to see evidence of Kara being stronger than Superman or just completely dismiss this claim and then move into WW stronger than Superman.

Part of blue's reasoning was WW>Kara>Superman

So far I have not seen anything that suggest Kara>Superman other than out of context evidence (not from blue but from other sources i meant)

Evidence up to this point suggest that Superman is stronger than Supergirl

The ONLY evidence I have EVER seen that she's stronger/more powerful than him were implications from SUPERMAN/BATMAN and SUPERGIRL. But the way that fight with Supergirl and Dark Kara ended, that sure seemed to me like the writer saying, "Hey, I just wanted it to SEEM like Kara's more powerful, but she's really not."

On top of the example you presented of Superman catching an emotionally freaking-out Kara(which Blue, would only effect her overall performance; not her strength or her ability to hold back, it'd in fact fuel her not holding back), we have the comparisons of Superman, Supergirl and Dark Kara fighting Lex Luthor in his Apokoliptian armor. Here's Superman.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Villains/Apokoliptian%20Armor%20Luthor/S-B%206/

And this performance is in significantly less than peak condition. Kryptonite from the meteor had started effecting him to some degree well before this, and was increasing as it got closer. But after the Kryptonite was already in range to effect him, he fought a whole bunch of villains(Silver Banshee, saved Batman from a bunch of ice-based villains, fought Mongul, was drained of energy by Nightshade, knocked-out Grodd and fought a few more villains briefly), then fought a formidable team almost single-handedly(Green Lantern, Captain Atom, Starfire and Power Girl on his own, Batman kept Black Lightning, Major Force and Katan busy, but Superman ended the fight himself), then more time went by as the meteor took more of an effect, then he fought Captain Marvel. And more time went on, all as the Kryptonite was getting stronger, as the first scan in that album indicates. And this is BEFORE Captain Atom comes in and blasts Superman channeling his energy through Kryptonite.

Here's Supergirl's performance.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Apokoliptian%20Armor%20Luthor/Supergirl/

She does horribly against Luthor, especially compared to Superman, without even taking into account Superman's less than peak condition.

Here's how Dark Kara does.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Apokoliptian%20Armor%20Luthor/Dark%20Kara/

One could make the argument that Dark Kara has a more impressive performance against Luthor than Superman did, but that would only be because she embarrasses him more. And these factors must be considered.

One-Dark Kara is much more aggressive and ruthless.

Two-She's using her powers more tactically than Superman did.

Three-Oh yeah, Superman's well less than peak condition.

Taking those into consideration, and the fact that Superman overcame Luthor's force field AND significantly damaged the armor merely by punching it, he most certainly comes-out looking significantly stronger than either Supergirl or Dark Kara.

Originally posted by -Pr-

Secret Origin is the official post crisis Superman origin, retconning Birthright.

Notice that you're again talking retcons. That facts had to be CHANGED from what was actually in the storybooks.

Answer these 2 questions for me, though:

What year was "Secret Origin" released?

What was the Krypton of "Secret Origin" like? To the point, was it a heavy gravity place or not?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Notice that you're again talking retcons. That facts had to be CHANGED from what was actually in the storybooks.

Answer these 2 questions for me, though:

What year was "Secret Origin" released?

What was the Krypton of "Secret Origin" like? To the point, was it a heavy gravity place or not?

Yes, pre Flashpoint Superman was retconned.

2010 through 2011, I think.

They didn't expand on Krypton that much, tbh.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Batman said he had SEVERAL theories, as I said before, in Superman/Batman #19 (aka Supergirl #Zero).

OK, you're right he said several. But as Pr pointed-out, how many did he explain? And your scan actually helps my case anyways. He said he won't share them until he has more data. What was the theory that Batman finally shared? In fact, apparently the only one? The difference in upbringing. If this is the only one actually stated, what do you think was meant here?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yes, for the time period we're talking about. Secret Origin is the official post crisis Superman origin, retconning Birthright.

I think he's talking about this happened before SECRET ORIGIN. Doesn't really matter though, it's quite clear Superman is stronger than Supergirl, and either he's dense or just does not want to concede. I guess he doesn't want to concede because that completely invalidates his argument of "Wonder Woman>Supergirl>Superman." Which, he'd have to actually prove Wonder Woman>Supergirl to begin with, something he has not. In all honesty, it seems the best he can hope for is Superman>Supergirl=Wonder Woman.

Originally posted by Delta1938
OK, you're right he said several. But as Pr pointed-out, how many did he explain? And your scan actually helps my case anyways. He said he won't share them until he has more data. What was the theory that Batman finally shared? In fact, apparently the only one? The difference in upbringing. If this is the only one actually stated, what do you think was meant here?

I think he's talking about this happened before SECRET ORIGIN. Doesn't really matter though, it's quite clear Superman is stronger than Supergirl, and either he's dense or just does not want to concede. I guess he doesn't want to concede because that completely invalidates his argument of "Wonder Woman>Supergirl>Superman." Which, he'd have to actually prove Wonder Woman>Supergirl to begin with, something he has not. In all honesty, it seems the best he can hope for is Superman>Supergirl=Wonder Woman.

I know it happened before, I was just saying that Secret Origin retroactivelky changed things that Birthright had established. I wasn't happy about it, but what DC says goes.

I am still wondering, though, how Supergirl can be claimed to be stronger than Superman, when in almost every direct confrontation they've had, he's been the superior of the two.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I know it happened before, I was just saying that Secret Origin retroactivelky changed things that Birthright had established. I wasn't happy about it, but what DC says goes.

Well, we know that consistency only seem to matter to Blue when it supports his case.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I am still wondering, though, how Supergirl can be claimed to be stronger than Superman, when in almost every direct confrontation they've had, he's been the superior of the two.

'Cuz he has no clue what he's talking about? You can go right ahead and replace "Supergirl" with "Wonder Woman" and nothing changes. I showed 5 separate examples of Superman either blatantly overpowering Wonder Woman, or otherwise showing to be stronger, ON TOP of examples of him showing to be stronger than her against a common opponent(in the same comic each time), from the 2003-2011 time period he keeps claiming she was stronger, and he still won't budge. Nor has he ever shown any examples I can recall to support his claim.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I know it happened before, I was just saying that Secret Origin retroactivelky changed things that Birthright had established. I wasn't happy about it, but what DC says goes.

I am still wondering, though, how Supergirl can be claimed to be stronger than Superman, when in almost every direct confrontation they've had, he's been the superior of the two.

If "what DC says goes", P.R., you'd accept Matt Idelson's claim that DCnU Supergirl is stronger than Superman.

You don't. On page 19 of this thread you say even the statements of Idleson, the Superbooks' editor, don't mean much when the comics contradict it.

As for confrontations, you would expect Superman to be the superior fighter. He's had ... what? 20 YEARS more fighting experience? Supergirl's had how much?

Switch Superman out with someone who is his physical equal however, but lacks some of his skill, and you get a different picture.

What happens when Supergirl goes against Ultraman, for instance?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If "what DC says goes", P.R., you'd accept Matt Idelson's claim that DCnU Supergirl is stronger than Superman.

You don't. On page 19 of this thread you say even the statements of Idleson, the Superbooks' editor, don't mean much when the comics contradict it.

As for confrontations, you would expect Superman to be the superior fighter. He's had ... what? 20 YEARS more fighting experience? Supergirl's had how much?

Switch Superman out with someone who is his physical equal however, but lacks some of his skill, and you get a different picture.

What happens when Supergirl goes against Ultraman, for instance?

We go by what's in comics primarily. DC in the comics stated it was the same guy. DC in the comics didn't state that she was stronger. And tbh, are you sure he wasn't comparing Supergirl to the Superman in Action Comics?

Ultraman isn't Superman, though, and Superman has in the past completely walked all over him. I'm just waiting to see how you can claim Supergirl is stronger, when there's been almost no in-comic evidence to back up the claim, yet Superman has plenty of evidence at his back.

Originally posted by -Pr-

DC in the comics didn't state that she was stronger. And tbh, are you sure he wasn't comparing Supergirl to the Superman in Action Comics?

Very. Idleson said this when they were showing Supergirl #2 for an audience.

" ... Issue #2 pages were shown, and it includes the first time Supergirl meets her cousin, Superman. "There's a certain distrust," Asrar said with a laugh as a slide was shown where Supergirl punches Superman.

"She's actually stronger than Kal-El," Idelson said. Johnson said, "She came out of that pod ready to go, as people noticed," he said.

The beginning of the second issue starts on Krypton, Johnson said, then it moves to Earth and establishes the new status quo for the relationship and distrust between Superman and Supergirl ..."

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/nycc-2011-dc-superman-panel-111015.html

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Very. Idleson said this when they were showing Supergirl #2 for an audience.

" ... Issue #2 pages were shown, and it includes the first time Supergirl meets her cousin, Superman. "There's a certain distrust," Asrar said with a laugh as a slide was shown where Supergirl punches Superman.

"She's actually stronger than Kal-El," Idelson said. Johnson said, "She came out of that pod ready to go, as people noticed," he said.

The beginning of the second issue starts on Krypton, Johnson said, then it moves to Earth and establishes the new status quo for the relationship and distrust between Superman and Supergirl ..."

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/nycc-2011-dc-superman-panel-111015.html

That's very vague, and tbh, how do we know that Morrison or Jurgens or even Johns agrees with such a statement?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Very. Idleson said this when they were showing Supergirl #2 for an audience.

" ... Issue #2 pages were shown, and it includes the first time Supergirl meets her cousin, Superman. "There's a certain distrust," Asrar said with a laugh as a slide was shown where Supergirl punches Superman.

"She's actually stronger than Kal-El," Idelson said. Johnson said, "She came out of that pod ready to go, as people noticed," he said.

The beginning of the second issue starts on Krypton, Johnson said, then it moves to Earth and establishes the new status quo for the relationship and distrust between Superman and Supergirl ..."

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/nycc-2011-dc-superman-panel-111015.html

Originally posted by -Pr-

[H]ow do we know that Morrison or Jurgens or even Johns agrees with such a statement?

From my understanding, Matt Idleson, being a DC editor, would outrank even talented and famous writers when it comes to determining how things go at the company. I could be very wrong in assuming that is the way things work, though.