Kara.
Kal.
Who was REALLY was most weakened by kryptonite during her 2004-2008 run?
Scan 7 of 7.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Supergirl #35, Volume 5
Writer: Sterling Gates
Penciller: Jamal Igle
Date: January 2009
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Supergirl_Vol_5_35
Alas.
The relative end of my comic-posting free time for this week...
One last submission, since I've already begun entering the 1950s and Kanigher era in the retrospective portion I promised earlier and that Salsa requested I resume:
(outer space/meteor showing)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Wonder Woman #80, Volume 1
Writer: Robert Kanigher
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: February 1956
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Wonder_Woman_Vol_1_80
Thanks for your time.
Have a good weekend, guys.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
with Lucia ...
I'll probably give a parallel case Supergirl had under Joe Kelly
to reinforce the point
(i.e. Kara having too much power, energy, etcetera for controllers to handle)The case of Sakki the Hate Monger.
Image 2 of 6.
uh What is this supposed to prove? All I saw in the scans is she overcame him via determination. Or is it supposed to be emotion, like how she talks about loving Kal and hating herself? Whatever the case, what does this have to do with WHO'S MORE POWERFUL? It doesn't even look like a statement about a character's power. And I've seen scans of Superman fighting that character, although I didn't see much. Salsa probably has the issue. I'll try to get it. But still, wtf is this supposed to prove?
But if it's purely her emotional state that has her overcome Sakki, um, you think anybody disagrees with you that a 16 year old, hormonal charged girl(when women are more emotional than men to begin with, especially at that age) who's planet was recently destroyed, just developed godlike powers, has had Darkseid, incarnate of evil itself, manipulate and corrupt her into something evil, get somewhat back to normal, have him try and kill her, start learning to be a hero, get pissed-off that her "parents" are looking over her shoulder, get little say in how she lives her life from who's actually her BABY cousin, have Luthor try to kill her, go through the whole Dark Kara thing, and more, is more emotional than a grown man who was done with puberty and high school drama years ago and had a more stable life than Kara did? I don't think you'll have many disagreeing with you. So, this example doesn't look to prove anything.
As for Blackrock, here's another example where Kara definitely doesn't look superior.
In fact, Kara's down where Superman overcame it.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's a fair point you make here, Delta, but, while Superman was weakened from "a giant Kryptonite meteor [that] had already gotten CLOSE enough to EARTH for it's effects to be felt there"?Kara was actually [B]IN
that giant Kryptonite meteor.
It was how Loeb introduced her, remember?In fact, its worthwhile to point out, if you DO like retcons and such, Sterling Gates used that very fact to explain her bizarre behavior --
she was literally suffering KRYPTONITE POISONING throughout that entire early run.DEFINITELY puts things in a different perspective ...
Here. You've seen already the dark mission Kara believed she had in the Sakki scans.
Check out some scans from Supergirl 35 now ...
Scan 1 of 7. [/B]
Nuh uh. You're not allowed to make this argument. Earlier you were dismissing someone's example of a retcon as it didn't count because the retcon happened before the storyline took place. Now you're referencing a retcon to try and disprove my point? You can't have it both ways. By your own standards, this doesn't count, and by your own standards it especially doesn't count because all 3 fights were written by Loeb, so he doubtfully had any intention of Kara being hindered by the Kryptonite. Unless you want to freely admit to being a hypocrite and you pick and choose to stand by certain types of arguments when it helps you and be against them when it hurts you. I mean, you've already accused me of being unobservant because of the hair length between Supergirl and Dark Kara, yet either left-out or didn't notice that Superman attacked Wonder Woman's Kara just as many times as his before the final blows for each(not to mention Superman's Kara had more time to recover from those attacks than Wonder Woman's), or that you read Superman's statement that Eradicator changed the Kryptonite that went through him as altering ALL the Kryptonite dust in the room. Which is especially bad because we see Eradicator hit with a swirling beam of Kryptonite, then we see different colors as it moves through him indicating it was just the Kryptonite he was hit with.
Not to mention you stated you don't think that Supergirl is far more powerful than Superman. Really, doesn't this retcon prove you wrong if you're correct that she's his superior? 'Cuz she should've, ya know, DIED before coming close to Earth if she was truly effected by that radiation. Especially by your standards, because you think that little pebble of Kryptonite Wonder Woman had during SACRIFICE should've stopped him dead in his tracks. Based on your inaccurate beliefs, in Kara's situation, she should've died as she had little to no yellow solar energy exposure when it would've started hitting her with much greater amounts of radiation than the small pebble you think should stop Superman dead in his tracks under normal circumstances. Yet, even with such a small amount, and gaining her powers under Kryptonite poisoning under a much shorter time frame than Superman did, she becomes powerful enough to at minimum make it questionable who's more powerful?
But, based on the scans, I'm going to guess this happens before New Krypton is blown-up? So, Kara would be back to normal after, I'd guess? If that is the case, then we still have Superman blatantly showing he's stronger when she's been taken care of over the Kryptonite poisoning.
By the way, Superman based on what (admittedly little) you've shown, Superman beats her here too. He had Kryptonite poisoning to the point he was actually glowing green, emitting it, and was still ok for a while.
In all reality, for you to back this as evidence that you're right, you'll have to come-up with some logical explanation, backed with examples from the comics, for why Supergirl is so much more powerful than Superman. It makes no sense for a 16 year old girl to be stronger than a larger, athletic full grown man in his prime. If it were just Kara who's descended from the line of Rao, and Superman's just a regular Kryptonian, that would make sense. But since they're both related and from the same line, this is not the case.
Also, you keep clinging to just character statements, but have no hard evidence that Kara is actually more powerful. You know who else were claimed to be more powerful than Superman? Daxamites. I always see people argue Lar Gand is stronger/more powerful than Superman, including Pre-ZERO HOUR, simply because he's a Daxamite, that they're automatically more powerful than Kryptonians. Doesn't look like it here.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Lar%20Gand/MOS%2010/
During PANIC IN THE SKIES Superman had to face Lar and a bunch of others when Brainiac took them over. And the best Lar could manage was stalemating him. And if you try to argue that they were handicapped from being mind controlled, One: The way these were it was unclear whether they were handicapped or not, and Two: This would be balanced-out by their superior numbers combined with Superman holding back more than normal because he doesn't want to hurt them. What else we got?
Here, Lar does get the upper-hand before it's interrupted, but right as that happens, Lobo jumps-in, and while Superman's still busy fighting Lobo, Lar is recovering, then jumps in himself, and, well, they both get KTFO. But what else do we have? The DARKNESS WITHIN fight. I should first mention, even this storyline states that Lar is more powerful than Superman, by Eclipso.
But what actually happens when Eclipso-possessed Lar fights Superman?
It doesn't end well for Lar, even though Superman's handicapped from having the air knocked out of him and is actually, by his own words, seconds from blacking out. He still not only knocks-out Lar, but hurts him so badly Superman says he needs medical attention. Also, while it's not Lar, here's another fight Superman's had, while he's actually worn-down from fighting a "plasma creature," all night.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Miscellaneous/Cil%20Gand/
Superman himself also said earlier in the comic that this guy was more powerful than him(or at least stronger) because he was a Daxamite. Yet, despite being worn-down and the Daxamite's fresh(as he was recovering from lead exposure earlier) Superman still shows to be stronger and beats him down. So, Daxamites are constantly said to be more powerful than Superman, but we have 2 instances of Superman being physically handicapped while facing one, and two examples of them having help, but Superman still wins 3 of those times and stalemates the first(which Lar had tons of others helping him). I've only seen one example of a Daxamite actually looking more powerful than Superman, and he looked more powerful than Superman PLUS a few Legion Of Super-Heroes members, so that one was really damn powerful. So, no, character statements alone prove nothing. They only support examples.
Here is further proof that Supergirl has not learned to control her powers fully. This is AFTER IC.
By contrast Superman could accomplish the same WITHOUT injuring civilians.
And Here is Superman tanking attacks from Reacton, much better than Supergirl note how she gets affected by as a side effect of Superman vs Reacton fight.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Superman has a much better control of his powers than Supergirl and because of how inexperienced she was with her powers she might have seem stronger, but when everything is put into the table, is clear that Superman is stronger and more powerful.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The case of Sakki the Hate Monger.Image 6 of 6.
As Mark Verheiden before him, Kelly presents Kara as having too much energy, love, hate, power, whatever, for people who have metahuman power and/or skill at controlling such things.
Seems a contrast to Superman, who beats Lucia Blackrock by cutting off or limiting her energy source with lead.
In a very real sense, at least here,
Kal beats by providing too LITTLE energy
(cutting off outside sources to Blackrock).
Kara beats by providing too MUCH.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Supergirl #13, Volume 5
Writer: Joe Kelly
Penciller: Ian Churchill
Date: February 2007
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Supergirl_Vol_5_13
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I searched for some info on Sakki. Found that he was featured in at least 2 comics beforehand, apparently against Superman, and apparently also written by Joe Kelly in 2002, roughly 5 years before his encounter with Kara in other words.Would be interesting to see how Superman dealt with him back then.
Unfortunately, unless something is wrong with my computer, the one review I found is to a website that USED to be good for reviews, but is now blank.http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/2002-post-crisis-reviews/c-review-2002.php?topic=12-action787
The other sites I found at least give cover images for this episode:
http://www.comicvine.com/sakki/29-46813/action-comics/49-18005/
And here's what DC Wikia has for them.
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_787
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_788Again, if you guys have these issues, it might be interesting to see how the same villain under the same writer fares against Blue as opposed to Kara.
Got a hold of the relevant issues, and man Blue, did you get it wrong.
First off, how does it make any sense whatsoever that Kara having too much "love/hate" to control would mean she's more powerful than Superman? It does not translate into either power nor energy, so this is a serious, serious reach and logical fail at best, a dishonest and misleading manipulation of events at worst.
Secondly, that's not the case even if "love/hate" somehow translated into either power or energy. After seeing the 3 issues, all written by Kelly, it's not Sakki trying to control others by their emotions. Sure, it's possible that he has some broadcast empathic or limited telepathic abilities involving manipulating or fueling hate/anger, but what's most apparent is he feeds off anger/hate. Like it fuels his powers. That's why he kept saying the things he did, not to try and control his opponents, but to make himself more powerful. Here's the full Superman fight.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Supergirl/Sakki/Superman/
I'll highlight some important parts.
Well, actually that's the entire fight, but it's followed by some other stuff showing how this guy's powers work, and he apparently did.....something to Superman messing with his chi. But as you can see, after he got Superman REALLY angry is when he had a clear and serious upper-hand. And he was just goading Superman the entire time. Here's some more important stuff to show that his powers are fueled by anger.
In the following two scans you'll see how Sakki is goading Gunshin(the one with the staff) trying to increase his anger.
But notice when Gunshin's wife strikes him without being angry, has it has much more of an effect on Sakki. And Sakki even states it. After this, we see the fight a little more, see that Superman's effected by the "Black Tide" and we see some explanation to Superman about it, and it's curing.
The following is Sakki murdering Gunshin around the end of the issue.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Supergirl/Sakki/Gunshin/
See how Sakki was saying nothing but stuff to make Gunshin angry? Talking about Gunshin's dead mother, how he'll kill Gunshin's wife, ect. If he could be overloaded by the anger/hate or there was too much to control, certainly he's saying the exact opposite of what he should.
When Kara fights him, she doesn't really fare any better in the actual fight up until what Blue showed.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Supergirl/Sakki/Kara/
Pretty clear it was the conflicting emotions, not her having too much of anything to "control"(which isn't what Sakki does). This isn't evidence in the least of her being more powerful than Superman.
So, all Blue has to go on is questionable statements, not actual showings, to argue that Supergirl is more powerful than Superman, despite he's been given ACTUAL SHOWINGS that prove the opposite. Clearly, the only reason he's clinging to this is so he can use ABC logic and try and argue it as proof that Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman. Despite not even showing evidence that Wonder Woman is stronger than Supergirl in the first place.
It's like Hulk fanboys trying to argue Hulk>>Superman by claiming Gladiator is "Superman on Super-Steroids" despite failing to prove their claim, then showing Hulk beating Gladiator, while leaving-out the extenuating circumstances.
By the way, Blue. Remember how you kept arguing Superman was Sun-Amped in MOT #13, and kept clinging to your argument despite the fact that Superman showed no noticeable power-up comparing his fight with Orion? And how you tried to discredit it by saying Orion is more durable than Superman and had help? And how you tried to brush-off me proving Superman's more durable and Orion's "help" might as well have never happened? Then you tried to discredit that Orion had to have been powered-up too by bringing-up he's a great warrior? Oh yeah, I proved that had nothing to do with the fight, that Orion showed no great skill against Superman. Never got a response to that. Like I'm sure you won't respond to this.
Different issue, but from the same KING OF THE WORLD storyline that MOT #13 comes from. Superman shows to be SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than Wonder Woman there, and there was no flying around the Sun here. So this just further backs-up that Superman had no noticeable in crease in power in MOT #13.
Whether you like it or not, Blue, the statements are that Superman is stronger. The showings portray him as MUCH stronger. You've done nothing but make unsubstantiated claims and tried to discredit all the proof that he's stronger than her when you had a prayer of doing so(but still failed) and ignored them outright when you clearly couldn't discredit them. Your claims are wishful thinking, and nothing more.
Getting to the point where I just don't see the point of the thread anymore.
Abhi's hostility aside, I just don't see how we can paint an accurate portrayal of the battle given the two sides and the way they're being debated right now.
Blue, I admire your dedication, but the fact that you haven't read so much of the material in the end only hurts your case, both in terms of proving Wonder Woman's might and Superman's apparent inferiority in your eyes.
Delta, you've done a good job too, but it's just not gelling for me as a debate when things are constantly being shifted around like this and certain time periods are being used.
Nobody is misbehaving, nobody is causing issues, it just... It honestly just doesn't feel like the subject matter is being argued as well as it could.
Re: Superman Vs Wonderwoman
Originally posted by Hell Lancer
so anyone know the exact score on wins and losses they have to each other. I know the two have fought on several occassions but I have trouble getting my hands on the issues where they do fight. also some of the links on the WonderWoman respect thread are broken 🙁
Well the op question has not being answered so far
IIRC
They have fought 2 times in pre crisis and at least 4 or 5 in post crisis
but the tally?
Originally posted by -Pr-
Getting to the point where I just don't see the point of the thread anymore.Abhi's hostility aside, I just don't see how we can paint an accurate portrayal of the battle given the two sides and the way they're being debated right now.
Blue, I admire your dedication, but the fact that you haven't read so much of the material in the end only hurts your case, both in terms of proving Wonder Woman's might and Superman's apparent inferiority in your eyes.
Delta, you've done a good job too, but it's just not gelling for me as a debate when things are constantly being shifted around like this and certain time periods are being used.
Nobody is misbehaving, nobody is causing issues, it just... It honestly just doesn't feel like the subject matter is being argued as well as it could.
I partially agree. I feel I've already proven Blue wrong, I'm mostly continuing because I can't let him go making these unsubstantiated claims.
Salsa and I have provided direct examples of Superman overpowering Wonder Woman or otherwise showing to be stronger, examples of him proving stronger by performance comparison against common opponents, as well as statements corroborating the showings. We have also answered/acknowledged nearly every question/point he's made to try and argue his case, if not all of them.
Blue, on the other hand, has provided wishful thinking and an ABC argument of Wonder Woman>Supergirl>Superman in strength, providing nothing but questionable statements for Supergirl>Superman and nothing really for Wonder Woman>Supergirl. He's provided many strawmen to try to dismiss or discredit hard evidence, has danced around or even outright ignored many questions, points and examples, and is the one who's been bouncing the argument all around. He's also apparently picking and choosing when things count as it suits his argument, such as trying to discredit my point that it was never clear in SUPERGIRL #5 whether Dark Kara really did swap costumes with Supergirl or not by saying the art was consistent about the hair length over 3 issues, yet blatantly ignores the fact that everybody BUT Wonder Woman caused a Kara to bleed when striking her when pointing-out that Superman's punch had more effect on a Kara than Wonder Woman's.
I think he should try to make an actual case for Modern Age Superman/Wonder Woman with hard evidence instead of a bunch of unsubstantiated opinions and randomly showing stuff from the Golden, Silver and Bronze Ages that has no relevance to today. He can argue the past eras after he's actually made any real case for Modern Age. Otherwise, he's simply proving my belief that he has no actual case, but a strawman claim of using the Earth moving in JLA #75 as a a benchmark, and claiming that Superman's been powered down since and Wonder Woman's been powered-up since. With his only argument for Superman becoming weaker being debunked due to extenuating circumstances he didn't include(whether from ignorance or misleading intent) and hasn't actually provided any evidence of Wonder Woman becoming stronger that I've seen(granted I might have missed something since I stopped going through the previous pages to let him play catch-up, but I think it would've been brought back up one of the many times I've pointed-out he hasn't provided anything).
Originally posted by biensalsa
Well the op question has not being answered so farIIRC
They have fought 2 times in pre crisis and at least 4 or 5 in post crisis
but the tally?
Well, I'll take care of that for Modern Age, Pre-FLASHPOINT. Out of what I'm aware of, they've had 12 Post-CRISIS fights, one being a "mock battle" and another while time was messed with, wasn't an alternate timeline, plus two "visions." Not including training sessions. I've got all but one of these examples. I'm doing this in chronological order to the best of my ability without digging in and making absolutely sure of each issue's publication date.
ACTION COMICS #600: eh I barely find this noteworthy. It was a "mock battle" when they realized Darkseid was trying to get them to kill each other, or something. I only uploaded the scans tonight because I felt I might as well for the sake of completeness. Anyways, there isn't really a winner.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/AC%20600/
ACTION COMICS #753: During the KING OF THE WORLD storyline, Superman, under Dominus' influence, finally crosses the line to the point that the JLA feel they need to step-in. We don't see him fight Wonder Woman too much, but what little we see, she doesn't look that great against him. It ends with Outburst coming to tell Superman that the U.N. has declared war on him, and will shortly be launching a strike regardless of his location. Superman calls in the Superman Robots to keep the JLA busy as he goes to disarm the world's nuclear arsenal. I guess you could argue Superman won? They failed to stop him. Oh well.
SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF TOMORROW #13: I'll note this is the issue Blue keeps arguing that Superman was Sun-Amped and stronger than normal, despite the fact that it's been proven Superman showed no noticeable increase in his power considering the fight with Orion in this issue compared to the first published they had, under Byrne, factoring in the official power-up Superman had after their first published fight. So, after fighting pretty much just Orion(his "help" consisted entirely of Green Lantern holding him in construct chains for exactly as long as Superman decided not to break them, and Barda blasting him once with a sneak-attack before Orion knocked him away), he is restrained by the combined efforts of Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Big Barda, Steel, Superboy and Supergirl. Despite their numbers and the fact that they have leverage, they still struggle to restrain him. They're doing this in an attempt to kill him with Green Lantern's synthesized Kryptonite. The Superman Robots come in before they can finish it. This can either be nobody wins, or Superman won, since they failed to kill him. Yeah, his Superman Robots were a big part in his escape, but Orion's fight beforehand and all that help Wonder Woman had were massively important parts in Wonder Woman accomplishing as much as she did.
Orion fight--
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Orion/MOT%2013/
Restraint--
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/MOT%2013/
WONDER WOMAN(Volume Two) #175: Here, after Circe's spell that alters a number of different men, Wonder Woman fights Superman who has a Doomsday-like mind. On the DC boards, Blue had claimed that Superman had Doomsday's strength on top of his, but I pointed-out how ridiculous this is because if he truly had that combined strength, considering her poor performance against the real Doomsday(who was toying with her when Brainiac was in control) and Superman, that she would've died even with his primitive mind effecting his performance. Anyways, through the whole fight Wonder Woman generally looks rather inferior, shining pretty much only when his state-of-mind distracts him, giving her an opening. In fact, the only reason she was able to end the fight was because he was distracted. She took the opening to lasso him and end the spell. So, Wonder Woman won on a technicality.
JLA: A LEAGUE OF ONE: Wonder Woman learns of a prophecy that the JLA will fight a dragon and win, but die in the process. So, she goes about using help and/or ambush to take-out the JLA members one-by-one. Except for Superman. She sneak-attacks him and he treats her like she's little threat, and she admits she couldn't beat him, but just wanted to slow him down. Superman wins.
JLA #77: The Mnemon causes Wonder Woman and Firestorm to forget who Superman is. They attack him. Not much really happens before Superman damages it enough to give them back their memories. No real winner.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/JLA%2077/
JLA #96: Superman had been taken control of by a vampire named "Crucifer." It's arguable he was weakened(from both solar deprivation and Crucifer draining blood), and it's shown he's actually holding back despite Crucifer's control. Some might try and argue Wonder Woman was disadvantaged because there were a couple vampires she was fighting too, but A: The vampires weren't all that powerful, Batman showed to take care of one pretty easily making them more distraction than threat, and B: Superman was handicapped. I think that balances things out. Plus, Wonder Woman had someone giving a little help in the background, momentarily effecting Crucifer's control, which opened things up for her. It ends with Superman apparently incapacitating her, before Crucifer grabs her and runs his sword through her. So, I'd say Superman wins.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/JLA%2096/
TO BE CONTINUED
SUPERMAN/BATMAN #15: Some LSH enemies come to the past and mess with things, although this isn't actually an alternate timeline. Superman overwhelms Wonder Woman and strangles her with her own lasso. Superman wins.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/S-B%2015/
SUPERMAN(Volume Two) #211: Superman's going to go into the unknown. The "Vanishing" had caused a random selection of people to simply disappear, twice. Nobody knows where they went, or if they're even alive. Superman figured-out the machine so he could use it on just himself. Wonder Woman is going to try and stop him. She looks pretty bad considering how Superman's pretty dismissive about her, like she's not even a threat, and never really takes her seriously. You could argue Superman wins this, and he definitely looks superior to her(twice showing to be MUCH stronger than her), but in the end he convinces her to go save others. The reality is, she tries to stop him, and fails.
WONDER WOMAN #219: The famous SACRIFICE fight. I don't think I need to do TOO much explaining. Maxwell Lord makes Superman think Wonder Woman's Doomsday, and Doomsday had killed Lois. Wonder Woman largely gets owned through-out the fight despite Superman's state of mind and the circumstances handicapping him. Wonder Woman's able to stop him by slitting his throat with the tiara. Of course, something the Wonder Woman fanboys(and fangirls) refuse to admit, is that Diana was only able to pull this off because Superman didn't really know what was going on. He simply could've dodged it quite easily if he did. But, Wonder Woman wins.
FINAL CRISIS #6: I haven't really read this yet, just seen the scans. But I do know that something causes Wonder Woman and others to be under control. Thing is, though, Superman's not actually fighting them. He's working to get through a force-field. Something I believe both Supergirl AND Green Lantern(John Stewart) failed to accomplish with their combined efforts(so much for Supergirl's more powerful than Superman). So, Superman beats Wonder Woman, and others, by accident, basically.
"Visions"
ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #494L Kismet shows Superman what could happen if he let his Kryptonian heritage and powers corrupt him. He kills, off-panel, Wonder Woman, Batman, Supergirl(Matrix), Booster Gold and Green Lantern(Hal) and has Flash's(Wally) throat while Captain Marvel comes and says he'll stop Superman, or die trying. Next scene we see, Superman has taken over the world. Superman wins.
I saw scans of another "Vision" but neither know the issue number, nor the context(if it was a hallucination, a dream, being shown what could happen, or what), nor have the scans. Wonder Woman goes evil or something, Superman fights her. She impales him with an (assumed) enchanted sword, apparently killing him(don't remember if it was confirmed if he was dead or not). Wonder Woman wins.
So 5 sure wins for Superman(4 "real" fights plus the "vision"😉 and 3 sure wins for Wonder Woman(2 "real" fights and one "vision"😉.
Arguably, you can make the tally 8 wins for Superman(4 sure wins, 3 arguable wins and the "vision" win) and 3 for Wonder Woman(2 sure wins and the "vision" win).
With two fights that were 100% inconclusive(the "mock battle" and a spat when Wonder Woman lost her memory).
Whoops, forgot the scans for AOS #494.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/AOS%20494/
I also forgot to mention ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #642(I think), which I included in my initial count of "real" fights(not "visions"😉 but forgot to mention, let alone include the scans of. Although we see security footage of it, instead of the actual fight. Superman is under Maxwell Lord's manipulation and thinks Batman is Ruin and killed Lois(he had actually gone through seeing Lois die twice before, once by Brainiac, another by Darkseid, before going after Batman thinking he was Ruin). Superman nearly kills Batman, Wonder Woman comes to save Batman. He's unaware of her until she directly engages him, using the lasso as a garrote to restrain him. Superman damages the Watchtower to get away(Blue tries to argue this as proof of superior strength, not taking the context of Superman being confused into account, and ignoring two BLATANT showings of Superman overpowering her, once at the end of this issue that continues into WONDER WOMAN #219, and the other being the "rape choke" in WW #219). So, I guess no winner since Superman got away without really fighting.
Originally posted by -Pr-It honestly just doesn't feel like the subject matter is being argued as well as it could.
It's gotten better, though.
After nearly 30 days and more than 20 pages later, for instance, Delta has begun addressing the main thread topic.
It's absolutely remarkable how closely his language parallels mine here now, too:
" ... I'll take care of that for Modern Age, Pre-FLASHPOINT. Out of what I'm aware of, they've had 12 Post-CRISIS fights, one being a "mock battle" and another while time was messed with, wasn't an alternate timeline, plus two "visions." Not including training sessions. I've got all but one of these examples. I'M DOING THIS IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY without digging in and making absolutely sure of each issue's publication date ..."
Originally posted by -Pr-I just don't see how we can paint an accurate portrayal of the battle given the two sides and the way they're being debated right now.
... things are constantly being shifted around ...
... certain time periods are being used ...
You're also not paying attention to what is actually getting done. Not really.
No offense, P.R., but, you're just about the most pro-Superman moderator I've seen on these forums.
That's coloring your perceptions and what you choose to focus on in prove-able ways.
If you look beyond the debate started by Delta, which is actually different from what I outlined MY focus would be at the beginning of this thread, however, and which I followed for many weeks before Delta's arrival, you would see that I'm addressing many of the traditional arguments that appear in threads of this sort.
For starters, the idea that any Superman versus Wonder Woman engagement must involve the "nerfing" or underplaying of Superman in order to make Wonder Woman look good. That she only contends with him because writers want to make it "seem" like she's legitimate. That historically Superman has "always" been top dog, the only one worth considering, that he is the same person now as he was pre-crisis, that no one could ever hope to perform feats on the level he has in the past, that Wondy being a top-tier is some very NEW phenomenon.
In reality, Wonder Woman was CREATED for the purpose of matching Superman. In reality, they've been having competitions both direct and indirect all throughout their history. In reality, writers "nerfed" HER throughout several periods of her history, giving people the false impression that she is Spider-Man or even Captain America level at her base, in reality she was top-tier by the standards of the day from her very start.
Your average debate thread tends to reinforce these ideas because of their inaccuracies.
"Wonder Woman can take Superman if she's 'bloodlusted', as when she killed Max Lord?"
In reality, Superman is the one who was "bloodlusted", not Wonder Woman, a fact pointed out by the very writer OF the story in question, Greg Rucka. He did so in an interview that you yourself corroborated, though he also made ample enough commentary in the traditional way of comicbook story-tellers; letting us know as much in the comic itself.
And many of the scenes of that pivotal battle have been posted. Thanks to me in a format that will preserve them for as long as KMC is around, assuming it doesn't do something DRASTICALLY unheard of, thanks to Delta and Salsa in fairly full context.
You've got material enough for a respect thread for either character,
Salsa specifically mulling over the idea for Golden Age Superman,
I, of course, for my already existing pre-Crisis Wonder Woman respect thread.
You've got a comicbook supported discussion of how Superman's powers work, nowhere else shown and proven on these message boards from what I can tell, certainly not in so accessible and organized a manner, a gallery of fights and feats that I KNOW people have never seen, a viewership that is all but unprecedented for threads in THIS particular forum, an examination of how sales increased as a direct result of Clark and Wondy going at it ...
This thread is a treasure trove for any comic fan that actually likes comics, P.R. And it actually is doing what it sets forth, little by little, bit by bit. At least on my end.
But it takes time. For, you're right, none of us have really proven the ability to focus on what OTHER people set forth.
Delta took more than 3 weeks and 20-plus pages to give any attention to the actual questions posed by the original poster of this thread. If he wants to look at it from the perspective of this being a debate he thinks he had a year or 2 ago, it took him till now, or Salsa by proxy, to actually post an answer to one of his main points, that Superman had official power-ups by DC. Hence, uncounted days ago, we finally see on a letter page acknowledgement from 90s DC letter page editors, "Yeah, it's a real good supposition that we made Blue more powerful, a good and reasonable assumption that this is a conscious decision on the company's part".
You'd think that would be the first thing posted by anyone wanting to make that point. In reality, it took HOW long for people to see ...?
And I do have to say this thread looks different day-by-day and by different people.
Kinda like a court case.
If only the prosecution presents its case, you'll think the defendant is guilty as sin, even if she is, in fact, innocent.
And the victim's family, regardless of WHATEVER evidence, feels their beliefs re-inforced, while the family of the defendant experiences the opposite emotions.
On the other hand, the jury, at least theoretically, having none of these biases, again, theoretically, can examine the case with impartiality, and come to a more correct conclusion ...
Originally posted by Delta1938As for Blackrock, here's another example where Kara definitely doesn't look superior.
(Blackstarr)
In fact, Kara's down where Superman overcame it.
You used Salsa's scans, but not his understanding, Delta.
This particular episode with Blackstarr was covered back on page 23.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
One other thing I feel the need to mention, though I'm not sure it really affects what you're saying either way (I have not yet looked at the Amalak links you provided),
is that in the 2nd scan you're showing above of Blackstarr, Superman is actually saying "Whoa, THAT's weird" because it is actually KARA's conscious that has been beamed into him!I'll track down the issue number and other information for you, but that is part of a story that involved the Legion of Super-Heroes, and, believe it or not, PART of Supergirl that was trapped in the 23rd century! So I'm not sure it illustrates what you think it does.
... and Salsa admits as much.
Originally posted by biensalsa
You are correct, Supergirl helped, but You have to see the power level of black star ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You're also not paying attention to what is actually getting done. Not really.No offense, P.R., but, you're just about the most pro-Superman moderator I've seen on these forums.
That's coloring your perceptions and what you choose to focus on in prove-able ways.If you look beyond the debate started by Delta, which is actually different from what I outlined MY focus would be at the beginning of this thread, however, and which I followed for many weeks before Delta's arrival, you would see that I'm addressing many of the traditional arguments that appear in threads of this sort.
You made the claim that Wonder Woman, from 2003-2011, was stronger than Superman. You have not provided ANYTHING relevant or solid to back this case. Don't you think that should've been your first priority? Your continued line of showings and arguments just reinforces the perception that you have nothing to back your claim.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
For starters, the idea that any Superman versus Wonder Woman engagement must involve the "nerfing" or underplaying of Superman in order to make Wonder Woman look good. That she only contends with him because writers want to make it "seem" like she's legitimate. That historically Superman has "always" been top dog, the only one worth considering, that he is the same person now as he was pre-crisis, that no one could ever hope to perform feats on the level he has in the past, that Wondy being a top-tier is some very NEW phenomenon.
Actually, Wonder Woman HAS had to have Superman handicapped to truly look good. And Superman has always been Top-Dog. Sure there'll be inconsistencies, but I can tell you it's generally been the case in the Modern Age, and from what I've seen Silver and Bronze Ages.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In reality, Wonder Woman was CREATED for the purpose of matching Superman. In reality, they've been having competitions both direct and indirect all throughout their history. In reality, writers "nerfed" HER throughout several periods of her history, giving people the false impression that she is Spider-Man or even Captain America level at her base, in reality she was top-tier by the standards of the day from her very start.
Her creator's intent is absolutely irrelevant today, and likely has been since the 60's at least. Also, I'd blame SUPERFRIENDS more than her being "nerfed" in the comics. In that show, Aquaman was the only more worthless character than her(sorry Pr, but it's true; they were not nice to him in any of the incarnations of that show), and she mostly contributed by.....giving Aquaman a lift.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Your average debate thread tends to reinforce these ideas because of their inaccuracies.
"Wonder Woman can take Superman if she's 'bloodlusted', as when she killed Max Lord?"
In reality, Superman is the one who was "bloodlusted", not Wonder Woman, a fact pointed out by the very writer OF the story in question, Greg Rucka. He did so in an interview that you yourself corroborated, though he also made ample enough commentary in the traditional way of comicbook story-tellers; letting us know as much in the comic itself.
I believe Rucka also stated that Superman's state of mind, him being irrational from rage and grief, was a significant handicap. I mean seriously, if he thinks he's fighting Doomsday in space, is it really an intelligent move to SEND HIM BACK TO EARTH?!!!?! No, no it is not. Which proves that his state-of-mind was a serious handicap. That, and he didn't know who he was actually fighting. Whether you like it or not, her only wins ARE when Superman's mind was significantly handicapped. Yeah, he was enraged, bloodlusted, whatever, but his mental state severely limited his ability to competently and effectively fight. The fact that she still looked so inferior both times by comparison despite his handicap just proves he's WELL above her.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
And many of the scenes of that pivotal battle have been posted. Thanks to me in a format that will preserve them for as long as KMC is around, assuming it doesn't do something DRASTICALLY unheard of, thanks to Delta and Salsa in fairly full context.
We're all still waiting for these alleged examples that she's stronger than him.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You've got material enough for a respect thread for either character,
Salsa specifically mulling over the idea for Golden Age Superman,
I, of course, for my already existing pre-Crisis Wonder Woman respect thread.You've got a comicbook supported discussion of how Superman's powers work, nowhere else shown and proven on these message boards from what I can tell, certainly not in so accessible and organized a manner, a gallery of fights and feats that I KNOW people have never seen, a viewership that is all but unprecedented for threads in THIS particular forum, an examination of how sales increased as a direct result of Clark and Wondy going at it ...
Which, very little on your end is actually relevant to who's stronger.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This thread is a treasure trove for any comic fan that actually likes comics, P.R. And it actually is doing what it sets forth, little by little, bit by bit. At least on my end.
But it takes time. For, you're right, none of us have really proven the ability to focus on what OTHER people set forth.
You spend more time trying to discredit solid evidence than you do presenting your own.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Delta took more than 3 weeks and 20-plus pages to give any attention to the actual questions posed by the original poster of this thread.
Or, I just ignored since you were clearly making unsubstantiated and even false claims, like the JLA found Superman to be stronger than normal in MOT #13. I just double checked to make absolutely sure, they made no such statement that he was or even seemed stronger than normal(they said about the Superman Robots, but not Superman himself). I decided since the thread seemed in danger of being locked, I might as well post the scans of the fights for a tally while I could.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If he wants to look at it from the perspective of this being a debate he thinks he had a year or 2 ago, it took him till now, or Salsa by proxy, to actually post an answer to one of his main points, that Superman had official power-ups by DC. Hence, uncounted days ago, we finally see on a letter page acknowledgement from 90s DC letter page editors, "Yeah, it's a real good supposition that we made Blue more powerful, a good and reasonable assumption that this is a conscious decision on the company's part".
You'd think that would be the first thing posted by anyone wanting to make that point. In reality, it took HOW long for people to see ...?
You must not be paying too much attention. I know I had pointed it out as soon as I brought-up whether your claims of Wonder Woman having power-ups was legit or not, as I hadn't seen any actual proof of it. The link's probably dead since I moved the scans, so here's the fight again.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Villains/Lobo/MOS%2030/
That issue is filled with examples of Superman noting his powers must be increasing, by all the things he can do now. Even Lobo notes that Superman's hitting harder than he remembers from their previous fights. The power-up came from the scans I showed involving Eradicator altering the Kryptonite Cyborg-Superman tried to kill Superman with(I believe Professor Hamilton called it "Kryptonite X"😉.
What Salsa provided was pointing-out the power-up stuck. There was a storyline after MAN OF STEEL #30 where Superman's powers are growing out of control, and Parasite is required to get him under control. It was ambiguous though whether he was brought-back to normal before he died, or if he was simply brought to a point before his powers started growing out of control, but he was still more powerful than before. This was Superman's first official power-up. I also explained this to you back on the DC boards, as well as having mentioned it here.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
And I do have to say this thread looks different day-by-day and by different people.Kinda like a court case.
If only the prosecution presents its case, you'll think the defendant is guilty as sin, even if she is, in fact, innocent.
And the victim's family, regardless of WHATEVER evidence, feels their beliefs re-inforced, while the family of the defendant experiences the opposite emotions.
On the other hand, the jury, at least theoretically, having none of these biases, again, theoretically, can examine the case with impartiality, and come to a more correct conclusion ...
Well of course the fact that you've never presented a REAL case will paint the "guilty as sin" thing. Salsa and I, and even Abhi, have presented real evidence. Not unsubstantiated opinions, wishful thinking and strawmen. Is it our fault that you haven't presented anything? Or the fact that there's nothing TO present?
A couple of Superman's feats from the 2003-2011 time period have been given. I haven't seen you give any feats for Wonder Woman from then. But considering how much of delusional Diana supporter Fangirl101 is(boy I wonder how this thread would've been if she hadn't been banned a bit ago) and I saw her present NOTHING solo feat-wise that comes close to Superman's best, I have a feeling the examples don't exist for Wonder Woman.
There have been numerous examples of Superman blatantly overpowering Wonder Woman, or otherwise showing he's stronger, from the time period you specified. You haven't given a single example for Wonder Woman being shown stronger.
We have several examples of him outperforming her against common opponents, again from the time period you specified. The handful of examples you've presented turned-out to be faulty on your end, like the Omac example.
And, we have statements, including from Diana herself, corroborating these examples. The best you've done in regards to statements is present some questionable statements of Supergirl being stronger than Superman(while ignoring hard evidence proving otherwise) and saying Wonder Woman's stronger than Supergirl without actually proving your case, making a very weak and faulty ABC argument.
Also, the one half-way decent and semi-logical argument you've given, using the Earth-moving example from JLA #75 as the benchmark, claiming that Superman's been powered down and Wonder Woman been powered-up, has been debunked. The only argument you had for Superman having become less powerful was shown to have some serious extenuating circumstances you left out, and you've yet to show anything that Wonder Woman has had a power-up, or any examples of her becoming stronger since JLA #75.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You used Salsa's scans, but not his understanding, Delta.
This particular episode with Blackstarr was covered back on page 23.... and Salsa admits as much.
OK, looks like you won ONE. Let's see the numerous other examples you've danced around or flat-out ignored when proven wrong on(Superman being Sun-Amped in MOT #13, the double standard of using consistency of art to prove your point on Supergirl/Dark Kara switch but ignoring the consistency of everybody BUT Diana drawing blood, the fact that your attempts to say anything before 2003 doesn't count has been proven wrong, how you keep arguing Aquaman broke the Imperiex Probe's hand when he couldn't crack one punching it at the same time Diana slashed it with an ax, Superman showing to be stronger than Power Girl and others combined on two occasions, and so on and so forth).
