Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Started by bluewaterrider58 pages

Over the weekend I came across the following, and I was struck by how germane it seems, how well illustrated by the going-ons in this thread...

(The most relevant portion is probably right around the 5 minute mark until about 15 minutes after.)

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Lec 22 | MIT 9.00SC Introduction to Psychology, Spring 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lanm...;feature=relmfu

(1 hr 6 min 43 sec)
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I should make clear:

I rarely ever do anything for exactly ONE reason.

The clip above?
Not merely to corroborate a point or points made in this thread.

But also to make people aware, with many of the participants and readers in this thread being students of high school or college age, there are online resources you can use to supplement your education.

FREE ones.
That nearly anyone of even average intelligence can use.

For instance, if you just HAPPEN to have enough curiousity to check out the beginning moments of the clip above, you learn that M.I.T., one of the nation's top-ranked universities, has the bulk of class offerings and lectures available online, in fact, right on YouTube.

Like, nearly the ENTIRETY of it.

Use something like, say, the top-ranked tutoring site Khan Academy along with it

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Khan Academy on Nightly News
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4dk6woz4Do
(2 min 32 sec)
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... and you might find it possible to achieve dreams you'd long completely given up on.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
So, I found the remnants of "Mild-Mannered Reviews".

Once, a premier "go to" site for information on all things Kal-el.

Now ...

Sad to see so many things disappearing.

Anyway, the Mild-Mannered Reviews review for Action788, which only appears on the website itself once every 5 clicks ...

(which is why I'm transcribing it here instead of just giving the link)

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Action Comics #788
Scheduled to arrive in stores: February 27, 2002
Cover date: April 2002

Writer: Joe Kelly
Penciller: Pascual Ferry
Inker: Scott Hanna, Mark Morales, Keith Champagne

"Mercy, Love, and Blood: Part Two"

Reviewed by: Nick Newman ([email protected])

Long ago, in Japan, a young Clark rushes up a hill. Reaching the top, he is shocked to find Tokai sitting cross-legged at the peak, surrounded by dead bodies. Horrified, Clark asks Tokai what he has done. Without turning, he responds that he has shown them the true face of the world.
In current times, Superman awakes from his daze to find Gunshin and Byakko attacking Sakki. Gunshin closes in to attack Sakki, but Byakko phases through her husband and attacks Sakki without anger, pushing him back. However, Gunshin doesn't heed his wife's warning and proceeds again to attack Sakki in anger. As his staff strikes Sakki, Superman is hurled backwards by an explosion from his chest. The Black Tide has him in its clutches. Byakko again stops her husband and tells him that if they don't help Superman, he will die. Gunshin resists, insisting that they cannot let Sakki escape, but a glare from his wife silences his protests.

In Vienna, Lois sits and thinks to herself about Clark. She wonders why she keeps trying to be on the opposite side of the world as him, and the only idea she can come up with is that she hates him. Her thoughts are interrupted by her mother entering the room. Lois begins to ask what they are going to do that day, but her mother stops her and insists that Lois tell her what is wrong.

Clark wakes up to find hundreds of needles embedded in his skin. Sitting above him, Byakko explains that the Black Tide disrupts the flow of energy through the body, and the only hope of stopping it is acupuncture. Luckily, she was able to 'ghost' the needles into Superman's skin and heal him before the Black Tide claimed him as its victim. Quickly dressing, Superman tells Byakko that this doesn't change anything, and he still needs to bring Byakko and her husband to justice before they kill again. Byakko argues that sometimes killing is the only alternative. Before he can say another word, she phases down through the floor, warning Superman to stay far away from her husband.

Lois' mother proceeds to tell Lois about all of the horrible things that her father did. Lois questions why they stayed married, and her mother replies simply that there wasn't any problem that the two of them couldn't solve. Marriages are formed in fire. Lois needs to ask herself whether she can solve this problem with her mother, or if she needs her husband instead.

In Japan, Gunshin walks through a crowd of gangsters, deflecting bullets and tossing bodies left and right. One of the fleeing clan members frantically calls for Sakki to come and help defend them. Outside, Sakki replies that he will let Superman take care of Gunshin, and then take care of Superman himself. As Gunshin prepares to kill the clan leader, Superman suddenly crashes through the wall.

No longer the focus of Gunshin's attention, he gives a command and dozens of ninjas jump out at Superman and Gunshin. The two fight off their assailants and then Superman turns and attacks Gunshin. Gunshin responds in kind. Outside, Sakki stands and feeds off of their anger. Suddenly Superman cries out in pain as his foot is pulled into the ground by Byakko, bonding his flesh to the stone. She leaps out of the ground and urges her husband to stop. Superman stops, and tells her that if his belief in the sanctity of life is so horrible, then Gunshin should just kill him. Falling to his knees, Superman prepares himself for the killing blow. Gunshin raises his sword and brings it sailing down through the Man of Steel's neck. Right through, as Byakko grabs the blade at the last moment and ghosts it, allowing it to pass harmlessly though Superman's body.

Infuriated, Gunshin storms away as Superman gets to his feet. Byakko asks if Superman really thought that it would have killed him, and Superman replies that if not for her intervention; there is no doubt in his mind that he would have died. Byakko then promises to change the system, and prevent her husband from killing again.

Back in Metropolis, Clarks walk in to his apartment to find Lois home. She stops him from speaking, and then tells him that she didn't want to come home because she holds him responsible for the death of her father. Shocked, Clark asks if she is leaving him as a tear rolls down his cheek. Lois turns to him, and tells him that they need each other, and the first thing she needs to hear is that he doesn't hate her. As Clark thanks her, the two embrace, and Lois promises to never leave again.

In Japan, Gunshin is meditating when Sakki suddenly bursts into the room. Overwhelming the hero, Sakki thanks Gunshin for hating him so much, and kills him. Returning home, Byakko finds her husband lying on the floor, broken and bleeding, and cries that it shouldn't have ended like that.

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/2002-post-crisis-reviews/c-review-2002.php?topic=16-action788

Not sure what your point is here. If you're trying to argue against what I've pointed-out, all this does is corroborate what I've already stated and shown that Sakki's powers are fueled by anger/hate, and shows that he wasn't overloaded by someone who had anger problems to begin with BEFORE being reminded of his mother's murder and being told his wife would be murdered too, which pretty much disproves your argument that Kara has too much "love/hate/whatever" argument since it was clear her conflicting emotions caused the problems. If this somehow was actually relevant to power/energy, which it was not. One of many points you've dodged that I've recently brought attention to.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Level with me, Delt -- you've never actually HAD acupuncture treatment, have you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lefDAjJZDk
(0 min 59 sec)

Nope, I haven't. Doesn't change the fact that this is a strawman though. Superman's having the steel needles PHASED INTO HIS SKIN. And many of them actually look thicker than acupuncture needles. By a LOT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture_needle#Needles

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Acupuncture1-1.jpg

You're trying to argue that Kara comes-off looking better because she has bits of rock embedded into her all over. Superman here has many pieces of STEEL embedded in him in more areas. Both are embedded into the skin, from phasing them into them. The fact that it's acupuncture for Superman is irrelevant and only the stupid or desperate would argue it. Especially by trying to argue actual acupuncture, as real-life acupuncture doesn't involve phasing thicker than normal needles into the flesh last I checked.

And, you continue to dodge the fact that Kara having pieces of rock embedded into her SKIN is NOT comparable to Superman being deeply phased into a metal table. A point I've brought-up SEVERAL TIMES and you've failed to address.

Originally posted by Delta1938

I haven't [had acupuncture]. Doesn't change the fact that this is a strawman though. Superman's having the steel needles PHASED INTO HIS SKIN. And many of them actually look thicker than acupuncture needles. By a LOT.

You're trying to argue that Kara comes-off looking better because she has bits of rock embedded into her all over. Superman here has many pieces of STEEL embedded in him in more areas. Both are embedded into the skin, from phasing them into them. The fact that it's acupuncture for Superman is irrelevant and only the stupid or desperate would argue it. Especially by trying to argue actual acupuncture, as real-life acupuncture doesn't involve phasing thicker than normal needles into the flesh last I checked.

Delta, if you yourself labored just a page or 2 ago to keep this thread going, why try to deep-six it now by trying to get me to respond to your name-calling? Is that really what you want?

The fact that it is acupuncture is NOT irrelevant. The mystique of acupuncture, very well known, is that, despite the fact it involves putting needles into people, yes, many pieces of STEEL into them, it does not generally hurt. It is completely counter to what most people expect.

Refer to the 4 minute 25 second mark of the following video for yet more corroboration:

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"the needles for the most part are painless ... usually the back is very painless and it is actually a very relaxing treatment"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXgVz4ZqAxo&feature=related
(7 min 54 sec)
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You're trying to argue that artwork is not always a safe guide?
We've covered as much before, though, Salsa and I, many, many pages before your arrival. That gets no points.
Artists have different ways of portraying things that aren't 100% reflective of how they are in real life. An artist trying to draw acupuncture needles to proportionate size would likely waste a lot of effort to have people go: "Why does Superman have all these black scratches? Where are the needles they are talking about?"

As for the argument that Superman is phased to a greater extent than Kara? Quite possible. Is the table metal? I don't know. You don't either, and you said as much earlier.
But metal generally doesn't develop cracks when stressed.
And with as many electromagnetic opponents as the JLA fights, human, mechanical, etc, I wouldn't think you'd want anything conductive to current or easy manipulation by magnetic field controlling beings.
More likely the table is some sort of durable wood, or ceramic, or stone, maybe even marble. What kind of rocks are phased into Kara?
Don't know. Could be the same, could be different. But a table of any of the materials on the list would explain the appearance of cracking or splintering in a way that metal would not.

As for the phasing, you know as well as I do that Superman is supposed to have nearly impervious skin. If you're going to insert an ordinary needle into his skin at all, you have to find a way around his normal level of invulnerability.

The fact that he is calm and relaxed, however, and even tells Gakidou he thinks he should thank her, is proof that he is NOT feeling pain from the acupuncture. As most people who get acupuncture treatment do not.

Finally got the review for Action787 to work.

Can't figure out why the website behaves this way now, 5 to 7 uploads required before the webpage appears properly as it did in the past, but ...

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Action Comics #787

Cover date: March 2002

Writer: Joe Kelly
Penciller: Pascual Ferry
Inker: Walden Wong

"Mercy, Love, and Blood: Part One"

Reviewed by: Neal Bailey ([email protected])

Lois and her mother sit together in an airport in Japan, about to depart for Vienna. They both talk about how wonderful the vacation has been, and how nice it is to catch up.
Meanwhile, Jimmy and Clark sit in the back of a vehicle in Japan, talking about Japanese food in reality as opposed to how it is portrayed in America. The drivers are taking them to see damage reeked by a metahuman "war god" on the populace. They arrive, astonished to see a building halved.

They examine the scene. Clark notes that the wreckage is still hot. The piece actually burns Clark. He passes it off as nothing, though.

Next scene, Superman flies over a monorail, looking for the source of the attack. He comes upon gunfire, and finds a room full of ninja-like men dying, in various shades of phasing from existence. They are all trying to kill a samurai looking lady all in white, who is annihilating them all. Bullets pass through her, and physical attacks fail.

Superman draws a line in the sand and tells her to stop. She flies away. He chases her. She tells him that she is fighting on the side of right, and that to interfere is wrong. He counters that fighting evil with evil is not only wrong, but impermissible.

The chase leads to a dojo, so it would seem, and inside, the name of the woman in white is revealed: Byakko. The revealer is her partner, a man named Gunshin, metallic in color and also wearing samurai weapons.

Superman bends Gunshin's sword. Gunshin says, "heavy", and Superman falls through the ground a number of floors. When he gets up, he suggests that he doesn't like Gunshin.

In Vienna, Lois and her mother remark about how wonderful Vienna is. Lois' mother wonders why Lois doesn't want to spend much time with her husband. Lois wonders herself, casting doubt about whether she wants to return.

Back in Japan, a man with a scarred half-face named Kojiro acts disappointed about Gunshin and Byakko stopping him from taking over Tokyo. He hands a canister to a familiar face from The Elite, who swears to make Tokyo Kojiro's.

Clark talks with a fellow reporter about the Japanese take on the situation. They want the war gods to clean up Tokyo.

Gunshin and Byakko practice in their dojo and debate Superman's presence.

Tokai, formerly of The Elite, torches a five square block area of Tokyo. Superman arrives to deal with him, bantering about the horrible things that he is doing. Tokai responds by torching a school bus.

Tokai slams Superman about, and says that his name is no longer Tokai. It is Sakki, the hate furnace. Brakko arrives on the scene. End Part One.

Story - 1: Warning. This review may sound angry. If you don't like angry reviews, leave now.

Why?

Because I'm angry. I'm angry at this book. I'm angry at the creative teams. And I'm angry at Eddie [Berganza - Editor], because these past few issues, this one in particular, have not been living up to the Superman mythos, and the fans are being stomped on in favor of marketability and perhaps, artist favoritism.

You open this book, and you look at the art, and you think, wow. This story moves. It's interesting, visually. Compelling, even. But when you start reading, when you start getting into it, something's very wrong. "This is not Superman. This is something else." My friend told me, after reading the issue in question. And he's right. Oh, this is Superman, all right, but the Superman that we had purposefully rid ourselves of in the mid to late eighties: The campy Superman who reveled in one hit wonders, issues where one week the villain appears, the next he's gone. This issue, we have four villains, but no real development. Gunshin and Byakko. They kill. They are horrible, horrible people. I imagine, as the story is leading us in that direction, that Superman will end up teaming with these guys to beat Kojiro and Sakki. But what are any of these people's powers? I challenge anyone without prior knowledge of Sakki, Kojiro, Gunshin and Byakko to give me a single power that they have that is fully defined or even half explained. Sakki makes fire. To what extent? And if he's powerful enough to level five square blocks of Japan, then why is he still running around? And why is he not working for someone more powerful than Kojiro? Because of the weaponry? Heck! There are a million goons out there with the same kind of weaponry. Is it because this is Japan? Perhaps. But why? What's his motivation? We have no clue. Ditto with Kojiro. No clues at all. Granted, this is the first part of a three part series, but part one, in almost any series, is properly laying the groundwork. This is neglected here. Gunshin and Byakko? Gunshin can make people heavy. Byakko can phase. And they somehow managed to evade Superman by dropping him through a few floors? SUPERMAN HAS MOTION TRACKING VISION! He can go back to where they were, follow their contrail, and bam. Instant fisticuffs. Or at least productive dialogue.

If you want to put a book into Japan, I think, there should be a reason, as well. Maybe it was an artistic request. If so, that's a pretty shallow reason.

That's another problem with this issue. Clark Kent works for the Daily Planet, not The New Yorker. As does his wife. Yet somehow they can both afford designer clothes on two reporter's salaries? And trips to Vienna, and all over the world, and Japan, and such? Give me a break. I'm a writer. Know what I make a year for writing?

Let me tally it up here... last I checked, I was out two hundred bucks. And I write three to four hours a day, practice like heck, and apply myself everywhere I can. Reviews, novels, poetry, short stories. And I send them out. There's no money in writing. Trust me. I don't buy it.

Clark would just fly over as Superman if he really wanted to check this syndicate out, and he certainly wouldn't have taken on Sakki on his own. First thing you do, if you're Superman, and you see five square blocks of Tokyo disappear?

"Calling JLA!"

He was a lone wolf with Doomsday, and it got him killed. He's already learned that lesson, as far as I knew.

Lois was a silly, unneeded distraction in this issue. For several reasons. Far be it for me to deny the need for her in the book. We've needed her more in the books for a few months now. But really, in this book, her presence just rubbed a sore even rawer for me. In my last review, of last week's issue, Man of Steel, I made a pointed comment with regards to the lack of continuity and how it is affecting Superman comics and their fans, hardcore and cursory, adversely. One shot issues and all of the changes that are occurring are well worth the time, as long as attention is paid to the ramifications of these actions. I like the new, strong, slightly bitter Superman who dares to cling to his ideals, but when Lex luthor can find out that Clark is Superman one week, and then the next week everything is fine, and when Lois' mother can find out that Lois is dating, perhaps having illicit affairs with the Man of Steel, and confront her about it, and then THE NEXT WEEK BE SIPPING TEA LIKE IT NEVER HAPPENED IN VIENNA, I GET A LITTLE ANGRY. I FEEL A LITTLE MISREPRESENTED IN MY CHOICE OF COMIC BOOK. I GET VERY DISENFRANCHISED WITH SUPERMAN IN GENERAL. This breaks my heart, because I put so much of my life, my dollars, and my idealism into the Man of Steel that I truly care about him, like a person. Like a father I never had. And when your father starts acting inconsistent, you question him, then you get angry with him... and then, the final step. You disassociate yourself from him.

I could never leave the Super-books. Not now. Not after so long, so far, and such a history.

But Jeph Loeb. Eddie Berganza. Joe Kelly. Super-people. HEAR ME! This kind of one shot, obscure, non-continuous stuff is going to lose you the love and faith of your readers. Remember "Our Worlds At War"? That was wonderful. That was the best Superman stuff I've ever seen, hands down. You had this new, vital approach to Superman, and you spread it over so far, so well, and in CONTINUOUS fashion, in a way that moved people, made them happy to root for idealism and truth again. And here I have to watch inconsistent plot, a choppy, angry, easily beaten and then easily beating Man of Steel plod through books until the next big DC event. That saddens me.

I am aware that you sometimes read this site.

I am more than willing to talk with you guys about what I and my friends think. I do talk to a lot of people and make sure that I'm not insane or the only one who thinks this way before I put stuff this heavy and this hard out. And I don't do it because I hate you guys or your teams. I love your work. More than any other teams we've ever had. That's why it hurts so much when things go downhill, and I want to tell you exactly what's wrong so it doesn't happen any more. Feel free to contact me at [email protected]. I also freely encourage readers of this site to send me their input, so that in the event of my being contacted I might fairly and holistically send out the thoughts of the readers.

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/2002-post-crisis-reviews/c-review-2002.php?topic=12-action787

Reviews are a great opportunity to get the perspective of other people injected into this thread.
Supplies that "context" Salsa mentioned several pages back.
They're good for other things, too; I'll make clearer what some of those things are at a later date.
Nevertheless, the following review, for Supergirl v5 #13, will probably be the last for a while.


The story opens with Kara waking up at S.T.A.R Labs after having a nightmare about her father's operation on her long ago. Lois meets Kara at S.T.A.R Labs not long after she fully recovers and tells Kara that Clark is worried about her and that Kara should call him but she says she isnt ready yet. When Lois leaves,Powerboy knocks on the window and asks Kara to follow him. Having been saved by him in the previous issue,Kara agrees and the two travel to Mexico and have a friendly conversation while stopping a natural disaster. Meanwhile at hiddeb city in Tibet,a mysterious figure employs assassins to go after Supergirl. The next day Kara tells Wonder Girl about Powerboy and how "hes nice" but before the two can finish their conversation,Powerboy himself arrives outside of Kara's apartment and asks her out again. The two fly around and Kara tells Powerboy that she will go out on an official date with him if she can beat her at a race. Supergirl speeds off and reaches the Hollywood sign but realizes that Powerboy is already there. The two start to talk again but are interrupted by two assassins who are Sakki the hate furnace and Gakidou.

A battle engages,Supergirl tries to punch Sakki but he phases through her punch and bonds rocks to her skin when she became solid again. Powerboy attempts to help Kara but is quickly defeated by Gakidou. The battle is moved forward closer to town and Sakki says he does not understand how Superman could be related tosomeone so full of such hate as Kara. Sakki continues to punch Kara but before he and Gakidou can finish her off,Kara gets mad and quickly and severely beats them.Sakki is shocked at the impossibility that someone could have more hate in them then he could take. Kara responds to this by saying "kinda girl i am" and flies of. Kara returns to Powerboy and finds him to be okay and she hugs him. Back at the Outsides base,Captain Boomerang finds out from Grace that Kara had left S.T.A.R Labs 3 weeks ago and hasn't even let him know.

http://www.comicvine.com/supergirl-love-at-first-fight/37-110159/

OK Since Delta covered all the fights We are aware of in the Post-Crisis, I guess I will have to cover the Pre-Crisis.

So I will start with JLA V1 #63

This is two fights

The Key has implanted mental commands into the JLA to kill each other and locked them into the JLA headquarters which back on that time, it was impenetrable.

The JLA tries to escape with out success until Superman travels back in time and replaces himself with a past version of him.

The Superman from the past defeats the JLA twice (including WW) at one point Superman actually KO'ed the whole JLA rather casually.

Second fight

There are two other fights I am aware of, one took place in another JLA comic book and the fight on the special Superman vs Wonder Woman.

I'll will get to those in my next post.

But apparently in the pre crisis era the tally stands as this

Superman 2 wins
Wonder Woman 1 win
1 stalemate between Earth 1 Superman and Earth 2 Wonder Woman

As far as I am aware there are no more fight between the two of them, but if anyone knows another instance. Please let me know. I will try to find another fight if time allows it.

But judging how casually Superman disposed of WW Pre-Crisis era is a no contest

You will see this as the fight in which Earth 1 WW wins basically has a confused Superman trying to figure out what is happening to Wonder Woman.

Now remember the fight I just posted had the JLA members under commands of killing, Superman is NOT.

The second fight no one is trying to kill no one.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Delta, if you yourself labored just a page or 2 ago to keep this thread going, why try to deep-six it now by trying to get me to respond to your name-calling? Is that really what you want?

No, I'm not name-calling. I'm simply stating an observation. And I never actually threw insults at anybody. If you're wondering, I personally think you're desperate in your claims, not stupid.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The fact that it is acupuncture is NOT irrelevant. The mystique of acupuncture, very well known, is that, despite the fact it involves putting needles into people, yes, many pieces of STEEL into them, it does not generally hurt. It is completely counter to what most people expect.

Refer to the 4 minute 25 second mark of the following video for yet more corroboration:

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"the needles for the most part are painless ... usually the back is very painless and it is actually a very relaxing treatment"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXgVz4ZqAxo&feature=related
(7 min 54 sec)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I read about studies on this. Scientists believe that it's because the needles do JUST enough damage to the body to trick the body into thinking it needs endorphins, without actually hurting. But this isn't real-life, this is needles being phased in, not penetrated through force. So, it's irrelevant.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You're trying to argue that artwork is not always a safe guide?
We've covered as much before, though, Salsa and I, many, many pages before your arrival. That gets no points.
Artists have different ways of portraying things that aren't 100% reflective of how they are in real life. An artist trying to draw acupuncture needles to proportionate size would likely waste a lot of effort to have people go: "Why does Superman have all these black scratches? Where are the needles they are talking about?"

.....huh? It looks like you're trying to argue my point by, asking me one thing, then asking me a question to argue the exact opposite.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As for the argument that Superman is phased to a greater extent than Kara? Quite possible.

No, it's without a doubt he's phased in deeper. Either you need glasses(or a new prescription), or your bias is effecting your perception. There is no doubt that Superman's body is deeply phased into the table, and it was specifically stated that the rocks were bonded to Supergirl's skin, so they were very shallow in her.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Is the table metal? I don't know. You don't either, and you said as much earlier.
But metal generally doesn't develop cracks when stressed.

Maybe it's not metal, but based on what I've seen their tables in the past take, they're a lot more durable than common rocks.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
And with as many electromagnetic opponents as the JLA fights, human, mechanical, etc, I wouldn't think you'd want anything conductive to current or easy manipulation by magnetic field controlling beings.
More likely the table is some sort of durable wood, or ceramic, or stone, maybe even marble.

That is not a valid argument. The Watchtower was filled with stuff electromagnetic opponents could manipulate, from electronics through-out it to it's defense systems to the very walls themselves(assuming promethium is magnetic).

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What kind of rocks are phased into Kara?
Don't know. Could be the same, could be different. But a table of any of the materials on the list would explain the appearance of cracking or splintering in a way that metal would not.

I highly doubt that it's made of the same stuff.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As for the phasing, you know as well as I do that Superman is supposed to have nearly impervious skin. If you're going to insert an ordinary needle into his skin at all, you have to find a way around his normal level of invulnerability.

The fact that he is calm and relaxed, however, and even tells Gakidou he thinks he should thank her, is proof that he is NOT feeling pain from the acupuncture. As most people who get acupuncture treatment do not.

Doesn't change the fact that he's got more pieces of more durable foreign objects phased into his body.

Originally posted by biensalsa

Now remember the fight I just posted had the JLA members under commands of killing, Superman is NOT.

The second fight no one is trying to kill no one.

Don't worry, Salsa -- I will definitely remember that the INTENT of the JLA members, to kill Superman, matters to you.

Originally posted by Delta1938

No, it's without a doubt he's phased in deeper. Either you need glasses(or a new prescription), or your bias is effecting your perception. There is no doubt that Superman's body is deeply phased into the table, and it was specifically stated that the rocks were bonded to Supergirl's skin, so they were very shallow in her.

Despite Sakki's statement, the DEPTH of Kara's phasing appears to be every bit as complete as Superman's. She has rocks both in the front of her body AND in her back; there's an even distribution all the way through her.

As one would naturally expect; for, if you look at the scene again, you'll see she was completely BURIED in the ground

... which you can see more clearly here ...

... and you can see her emerging from the earth, kicking up a small shower of debris right here, then again showing us the rocks showing through her back.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Despite Sakki's statement, the DEPTH of Kara's phasing appears to be every bit as complete as Superman's. She has rocks both in the front of her body AND in her back; there's an even distribution all the way through her.

As one would naturally expect; for, if you look at the scene again, you'll see she was completely BURIED in the ground

So? We only see small, random bits of rock around her, not large chunks when she comes out. If you compare that to Superman's foot being phased through the floor he brought-out a chunk of the floor when he pulled his foot out.

Originally posted by Delta1938
So? We only see small, random bits of rock around her, not large chunks when she comes out. If you compare that to Superman's foot being phased through the floor he brought-out a chunk of the floor when he pulled his foot out.

Not around Kara, IN Kara. There's a difference.

For that matter, we don't see him much more phased into the table than we see him phased into the floor.

Cover art definitely isn't a sure guide, but note the cover of JLA v1 #86 anyway:

Note there are only 4 phasing sites, comparable in appearance to what we see in that Japan house floor phasing, which I used 4 rounded rectangles to highlight ...

Note now the first actual scene of Superman phased into the JLA table once again. Really only 4 phasing points, each looking roughly comparable to Superman being phased into Gakidou's floor.

Obviously, because of the angle, we can't see where Superman's left ankle is phased in ...

Have to say I don't really get the sense of adamantium-level durability for the JLA table, either. Or anything greater than rock or durable wood, really. Shock all by itself would have Superman pretty much locked into place and spasm-ing helplessly.

And the table is broken by the first action taken against it after this point.
Namely Wonder Woman and Batman getting thrown onto it ...

... as you can see here.

Note the chairs around the table being scattered around by the impact.

Note that the throwing force was not enough to kill or even seriously injure Batman.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not around Kara, IN Kara. There's a difference.

For that matter, we don't see him much more phased into the table than we see him phased into the floor.

Cover art definitely isn't a sure guide, but note the cover of JLA v1 #86 anyway:

OK, I didn't word what I meant very well. Yeah, there's pieces of rock inside Kara. But it's stated they're bonded with her SKIN, not that they're deep inside her. If she were actually phased to the point that you're trying to argue, comparing it to how deep Superman was phased by Fernus, she would've been pulling large chunks of earth and rock inside her body. When Superman pulled his ankle out from being phased into the floor, he pulled-out a chunk of it.

Also I realized how much it says that you're desperately arguing this one example like it proves you right(when you've already been proven wrong), but either dodged or completely danced around the other showings proving Superman is superior to Supergirl(Luthor in Apokoliptian armor, catching Kara's punch, and the force field breaching in FINAL CRISIS; far as I'm aware, it's a valid example).

Clearly, you're trying to argue Supergirl>Superman because you're using POORLY done ABC Logic to "prove" Wonder Woman>Superman in strength. When you haven't even proven Wonder Woman's stronger than Kara, anyways.

... and note, of course, that Superman is still there, attached to part of the table by his ankle ...

Originally posted by Delta1938

I realized how much it says that you're desperately arguing this one example like it proves you right(when you've already been proven wrong), but either dodged or completely danced around the other showings proving Superman is superior to Supergirl(Luthor in Apokoliptian armor, catching Kara's punch, and the force field breaching in FINAL CRISIS; far as I'm aware, it's a valid example).

Actually I'm neither desperate nor do I think proving or disproving THIS particular subpoint would prove me right about Kara's overall place.

It illustrates instead how long it actually takes to argue with you and get even a concession of you mis-wording your stance, or that you actually DO know there is a difference between acupuncture and the pain Kara endures. It's also evident how quickly you try to use the mere fact of me answering a point to say I'm trying to dodge other things.

You've got a near perfect catch-22 set up here, Delta.

Decline a response at a particular time and I'm "ignoring" you.

Respond, instead of declining?

I'm supposedly "dodging" other things.

Again, a nearly perfect strategy on your part.

But only nearly so.