Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Have to say I don't really get the sense of adamantium-level durability for the JLA table, either. Or anything greater than rock or durable wood, really. Shock all by itself would have Superman pretty much locked into place and spasm-ing helplessly.

And the table is broken by the first action taken against it after this point.
Namely Wonder Woman and Batman getting thrown onto it ...

Well then, prepare to be proven wrong. At least about it isn't greater than rock or durable wood in durability.

This could be a different table, as it's from a prestige format book from 1999, and has a different color, but note the level of durability it has.

I doubt Superman's going all-out, but he doesn't damage the table despite clearly using force against it. And if you're going to try and argue that the helmet takes no damage, it survived a nuclear explosion.

But here's something more recent in comparison to the argument you're making. JLA #76.

See they're in the JLA meeting room? And that this is where Aquaman was taken back to Atlantis for trial? Well, check-out Superman's reaction.

Damages it, but doesn't completely destroy it. Clearly Superman isn't going all-out, but he's mad so he's hitting it fairly hard.

And while this could be a different table, it could be the same, still in tact enough to use. But even if it's not the same table, clearly Superman didn't completely obliterate it. It is definitely more durable than typical rock or a durable wood.

And I've seen the JLA's table be relatively ok considering other fights in the Watchtower where it gets damaged. Also I noticed you dodged the counter-point when you tried arguing that because of the JLA's electromagnetic opponents and stuff, you doubt they'd have a metal table. um The JLA Watchtower was FILLED with metallic objects that could be used against them by an enemy with the power to manipulate them. If that was a reason for them not to have a metal table in their HEADQUARTERS, they're HEAVILY GUARDED HEADQUARTERS ON THE MOON, then why the Hell would they let Wonder Woman bring her lasso and bracelets into battle? Why would they have Green Lantern on the team? I know at least Wonder Woman's bracelets and Kyle's Power Ring have been exploited against them by a magnetic manipulator in at least one example, and, logically, those are much more likely to be exploited in battle than a table in their headquarters on the Moon, since most of their fights didn't happen in their headquarters. For that matter, why would they have ever had Steel on the team? Or let Batman wear his utility belt?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
... as you can see here.

Note the chairs around the table being scattered around by the impact.

Note that the throwing force was not enough to kill or even seriously injure Batman.

Like this proves anything? Booster Gold survived a direct beating from Doomsday without his force field. Guy Gardner survived his head being slammed into a car door by Doomsday and I don't believe his Power Ring protected him(unless I'm mixing the characters up, but these examples did happen). Batman's armor has protected him from quite a few things in the past, and simply being thrown isn't the most convincing argument.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
... and note, of course, that Superman is still there, attached to part of the table by his ankle ...

Ya know, I think the fact that Superman is stuck in there actually further strengthens the fact that this is more durable than what Kara has in her. Even in shock, Superman very well could've moved around. If this were just marble or stone or wood, even in shock Superman would've broken it.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Actually I'm neither desperate nor do I think proving or disproving THIS particular subpoint would prove me right about Kara's overall place.

Then why continue arguing this while dancing around and flat-out ignoring other examples that show Superman>Supergirl?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It illustrates instead how long it actually takes to argue with you and get even a concession of you mis-wording your stance, or that you actually DO know there is a difference between acupuncture and the pain Kara endures. It's also evident how quickly you try to use the mere fact of me answering a point to say I'm trying to dodge other things.

So, a fancy way of dancing around you ignoring numerous other points, but playing-up one single point that you've been proven wrong of. By the way, acupuncture not hurting people is a worthless argument when the fact is Superman had STEEL needles embedded into his skin in a lot more places, and Kara simply had pieces of rock embedded in her skin. The fact that the needles were phased in negates any argument you could make about real-world acupuncture.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You've got a near perfect catch-22 set up here, Delta.

Decline a response at a particular time and I'm "ignoring" you.

Respond, instead of declining?

I'm supposedly "dodging" other things.

Again, a nearly perfect strategy on your part.

But only nearly so.

So, you're trying to spin YOUR strategy into a way to paint me in a manipulative light? Nice try. Fact: You've brought-up no actual examples showing Wonder Woman to be stronger than Superman. Fact: You've relied almost entirely on statements, not actions, to argue Supergirl>Superman. Fact: You've ignored 4 examples brought-up by myself, Salsa and Abhi showing Superman>Supergirl in favor of arguing one point that you used a non-equivalent example, with the only similarity being both examples involved phasing. Fact: There's no reason for you to be so strongly arguing that Supergirl>Superman in a debate of who's stronger between Wonder Woman and Superman unless you're trying to use ABC comparison. Fact: You haven't even provided a solid argument that Wonder Woman is stronger than Supergirl in the first place.

Joe Kelly wrote Sakki versus Superman just as he wrote Sakki AND Gakidou versus Supergirl.

Then let's apply your brand of logic here, Delta.

And let's re-examine that Action787 fight

You talk about how calm Superman is in "For Tomorrow".
Let's watch how CALM Sakki is as he tanks Superman's heat vision.

Now let's watch as Superman blitzes Sakki.

And Sakki "tanks" that, too.

You've also made a lot of noise about how Superman is different when he's "serious", not "playing around anymore", "pissed off", etcetera.

Certainly we see that here:

Now the Delta1938 favorite: punch-catching.

Sure proof in Delta-world that you are stronger than your opponent.
Why?
I don't know.

But catch Superman's punch Sakki does.

With one hand.

Calmly.

Finally, of course, we see Sakki administer the coup de grace.

You yourself tell me that's the end of the fight as far as Superman is concerned. The review I gave on the previous page confirms as much.

Contrast that to how Joe Kelly writes Sakki versus KARA, however.

As pointed out on the 2 or 3 pages of the thread prior to this one, Kara actually sufers first an attack by GAKIDOU, Sakki's partner, not Sakki himself.

And even the most casual observation reveals that Gakidou's phasing causes disorienting pain. She screams emerging from the Earth, she falls on the ground immediately afterward, Sakki himself comments that the experience must feel quite painful, and Kara has her eyes completely shut as Sakki grabs her from behind spikes his fist and then sends her sailing over Hollywood hill.

All this is visible in your links, so I won't bother to post or re-post any of that, which, as you well know, would take me ... a bit more effort.

However, I have NOT shown what I earlier described in text, and that is the effect of Kara retaliating.

Superman angrily punches Sakki to the face several time to no effect, "tanking" every last blow?

What happens the first time Kara lands an attack on Sakki?

Sakki cries out in pain.

No matter your explanation for it, SEVERAL blows by Superman have no discernible effect on Sakki.

Kara, by contrast, makes Sakki drop his CALM facade, and cry out in pain. With her FIRST landed physical attack.

Then she follows up with heat vision.

Just a little while ago we saw Sakki "tank" Superman's heat vision.

Casually. Calmly. With one hand blocking the beam while he amiably greeted Superman after years of missing him.

How does he fare against Kara's beaming?

Well, I gotta hand it to you. You've got a completely valid point.

IF we ignore the very important context left-out of your argument.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Joe Kelly wrote Sakki versus Superman just as he wrote Sakki AND Gakidou versus Supergirl.

Then let's apply your brand of logic here, Delta.

And let's re-examine that Action787 fight

You talk about how calm Superman is in "For Tomorrow".
Let's watch how CALM Sakki is as he tanks Superman's heat vision.

Sakki's power is fueled by the hater and anger of others. Superman is manipulated into getting rather angry here.

So, no, not a good argument to bring-up Sakki tanking Superman's attacks. By the way, while it's true that Sakki's tanking the heat vision, he's NOT tanking the speedblitz. See how his head's knocked-back? Compare that to this.

See how Superman's head is unmoved by the first 3 punches Kara throws? Yeah, that's tanking.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You've also made a lot of noise about how Superman is different when he's "serious", not "playing around anymore", "pissed off", etcetera.

Certainly we see that here:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Now the Delta1938 favorite: punch-catching.

Sure proof in Delta-world that you are stronger than your opponent.
Why?
I don't know.

But catch Superman's punch Sakki does.

With one hand.

Calmly.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Finally, of course, we see Sakki administer the coup de grace.

You yourself tell me that's the end of the fight as far as Superman is concerned. The review I gave on the previous page confirms as much.

So, how is this valid considering Superman's just fueling Sakki's power? Oh, it's not.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Contrast that to how Joe Kelly writes Sakki versus KARA, however.

As pointed out on the 2 or 3 pages of the thread prior to this one, Kara actually sufers first an attack by GAKIDOU, Sakki's partner, not Sakki himself.

And even the most casual observation reveals that Gakidou's phasing causes disorienting pain. She screams emerging from the Earth, she falls on the ground immediately afterward, Sakki himself comments that the experience must feel quite painful, and Kara has her eyes completely shut as Sakki grabs her from behind spikes his fist and then sends her sailing over Hollywood hill.

All this is visible in your links, so I won't bother to post or re-post any of that, which, as you well know, would take me ... a bit more effort.

However, I have NOT shown what I earlier described in text, and that is the effect of Kara retaliating.

Superman angrily punches Sakki to the face several time to no effect, "tanking" every last blow?

What happens the first time Kara lands an attack on Sakki?

Except, you're forgetting context. Again, Sakki's powers are fueled by anger/hate. I'm sure Kara's not having a nice time of this, but she's having conflicting emotions.

Oh and see how Sakki brings-up "because of your hate for him?" He's referring to Superman. Well, let's see your scan.

See how she says "you want my hate?" But let's see what happens after that.

Yeah, she's clearly having conflicting emotions, and doesn't seem all that angry. In fact, her bringing-up loving Kal kinda seems like that emotion is greater than the hate/anger she might have. Oh, and what happened when Sakki was hit with an attack that wasn't in anger?

He's hurt. "Force without anger." And ya know, I didn't even really see anything from that woman to indicate she was superhumanly strong.

So, either this is an intentionally misleading strawman, you're forgetful, or you're not very observant(both reading reviews, points made in debates, and the actual scans themselves). Which is it?

This, coupled with the fact that you change the subject so drastically after I proved you wrong about the durability of the JLA's table pretty much proves you're trying to draw attention from your arguments being proven wrong.

Check and mate, Blue.

I'm easily distracted, so, instead of a side-by-side comparison of how the 2 cousins fare against the Joe Kelly-villain Sakki as written BY Joe Kelly in both instances, this is an image of Kara approaching the group.

I just liked the way they apparently have a photograph, though blurred, of the real-world Hollywood, California as their background.
Seldom notice stuff like that except when examining books in depth here ...

Originally posted by Delta1938

This, coupled with the fact that you change the subject so drastically after I proved you wrong about the durability of the JLA's table pretty much proves you're trying to draw attention from your arguments being proven wrong.

Check and mate, Blue.

Not so fast, Kasparov.

You still have to deal with the fact that, in complete opposition to what YOU'RE saying here, Sakki HIMSELF suggests there is too much rage for him to deal with Kara ...

... as well as the fact that, by this time, Kara Zor-el is well KNOWN for possessing great amounts of anger

In this perhaps most striking example, she beats Cassandra Sandsmark with Cassie's own Cassie-rage responding lasso ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not so fast, Kasparov.

You still have to deal with the fact that, in complete opposition to what YOU'RE saying here, Sakki HIMSELF suggests there is too much rage for him to deal with Kara ...

Conflicting emotions. Sakki didn't have a problem with the hate of Gunshin. Who's already an angry dude to begin with, but then was reminded of his murdered mother AND Sakki was telling him he was going to skin Gunshin's wife to the bone.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Supergirl/Sakki/Gunshin/

And even if you were right that it's simply anger(which considering how Kara's talking and about love and all that, I doubt it), all this means is Supergirl's anger overloaded his power. Which has nothing to do with HER power.

And, you ignored the fact that you so drastically changed the subject from the phasing comparison. It's clear that I proved that the JLA's table is more durable than you want to admit, so you utterly change the subject.

Knocking over the board after checkmate doesn't mean you didn't lose the game, Blue.

Also, I gotta make a correction to something I said earlier. About Booster Gold surviving a beating from Doomsday. I realized it was Blue Beetle who survived, probably the car door slamming too. But being mistaken on WHO it was doesn't change the fact that it disproves your argument that Batman didn't die when thrown into the table means the table isn't very durable.

EDIT:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
... as well as the fact that, by this time, Kara Zor-el is well KNOWN for possessing great amounts of anger

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In this perhaps most striking example, she beats Cassandra Sandsmark with Cassie's own Cassie-rage responding lasso ...

So, in other words, if you're correct that her anger was too much for Sakki, all this proves is that her anger overloaded his powers, and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with being more powerful than Superman in regards to performance. So, thank you for proving you're either not paying attention, or intentionally misleading and attempting deceit with strawmen.

... dropping the poor girl by giving her a taste of what co-exists with Kara's yet genuinely kind and life-affirming nature.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Supergirl #2
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciller: Ian Churchill
Date: November 2005
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Supergirl_Vol_5_2

Originally posted by Delta1938

you ignored the fact that you so drastically changed the subject from the phasing comparison. It's clear that I proved that the JLA's table is more durable than you want to admit, so you utterly change the subject.

You could be one of the participants from that M.I.T. study.

No matter what the situation, no matter how much you're told, no matter how much you've known and personally experienced interacting with me, you consistently choose to ascribe it to character while giving yourself a pass.

In point of fact, I have no problem in saying the JLA table is durable.
Not even more durable than stone, if you want it that way.

Why not go ALL the way, in fact, just for argument's sake? Why not simply say the JLA table is made of the most durable substance in the known DCU?

Could even inertron hope to match it?
Perhaps it is a writer's plot point that it was able to be broken at all, but the writer needed a way for Superman to be released from it?

Falsely saying all that, however, would ignore the bare fact that, however durable it is or isn't, the table phasing attack debilitates Superman, it WAS the only time I could recall Superman suffering a phasing attack last night while writing my post, and Kara overcame the phasing attack, intentional or not, of Gakidou in Supergirl 13, who had been contracted to kill her.

Kara also fared much better against Sakki than her cousin.
MUCH better.
To the point where Gakidou teleported them out of there.

Whereas Superman apparently had to be SAVED by a third party when HE went against Sakki many years earlier.

And all three stories were written by the same author, Joe Kelly.

Worked on these 2 composites earlier.

Can't think of a good reason not to post them, so ...

Whatever the reason, if the opponent is Sakki the Hate Furnace,
Joe Kelly suggests Kara, not Kal, is the hero to send.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Whatever the reason, if the opponent is Sakki the Hate Furnace,
Joe Kelly suggests Kara, not Kal, is the hero to send.

Howso?

😕

Uhm, P.R. ...

did you ... actually look at any of the scans Delta and I posted these past 2 or 3 pages?