Delta1938
True King of House of El
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You're illustrating one of the reasons I originally decided to respond to this thread. Everybody makes excuses for Superman if HE loses a fight.
Few, if any, stop to examine why Wonder Woman wins or loses.Has anyone YET from the Superman side let Sacrifice go as a Wonder Woman win WITHOUT commentary?
"A win is a win"?
Then why the continual chorus of "He thought he was fighting Doomsday", if people truly felt secure with that premise?
Why should only Superman fans, including the moderator, be allowed to give reasons for a performance success or failure for Superman but no one be allowed to give one for Diana?
Why should it be thought strange if some one points out that Diana had some significant performance-affecting issues, too?
In this or on other occasions?
OK, let's take a look at the context for Superman's wins.
A LEAGUE OF ONE: hm What exactly would be handicapping Diana here? Her not wanting to fight her team mates? Doesn't really seem like a legitimate excuse, because she put all but Superman in danger. And she admits she knew she couldn't beat him. That coupled with the fact that he didn't put-up much effort in their fight pretty much proves that he's superior to her. Not to mention that I don't even SEE anything that should truly hinder her performance considering she was willing to risk the lives of her team mates.
JLA #96: You mean how she was outnumbered and didn't want to hurt her team mate so she'd hold back? Well, those vampires other than Crucifer clearly weren't a major threat to her considering how Batman handled one. Unless you're willing to say her fighting skills are so sub-par compared to Batman's that even with her much greater strength, speed and durability she's in trouble with a couple of vampires. Superman was handicapped as well. He was likely weakened by lack of sunlight and possibly the vampire feeding on him, he was being controlled by someone who was less effective with his powers, AND it was shown he was actually fighting the control so despite Crucifer making him fight her, he still held back. Plus, Diana did temporarily get some help from Nudge(I think that was her name) that did cause Crucifer to lose control long enough for her to get in her best hit. I think the circumstances hindering Superman do balance-out her situation, especially since the vampires were little more than a distraction.
The FOR TOMORROW FIGHT? You mean her conflicting emotions? uhhhh She was still willing to try and KILL him. Sure didn't look like it was handicapping her as much as you wish. Yeah, the end had her really getting emotional, that could've been the reason she decided to give-up. But considering her previous efforts and him treating her like she wasn't a threat, I think it's grasping at straws to be doing this. He knew how powerful she was and her capabilities from previous fights and being her team mate. Yet he still didn't feel she was a threat. That says a lot more than anything you can come-up with.
SUPERMAN/BATMAN #15? That time was being messed with so she didn't have any power-ups? Hey, guess what? Same goes for Superman. She was trying to reason with him? Yeah, she was. AFTER she had KILLED BATMAN just a bit ago. Clearly she had no qualms about harming Superman. It's quite obvious the only reason she was trying to reason with him was a last-ditch effort NOT TO DIE. Not because she was reluctant to hurt him. She was blind-sided? Maybe. But that says more about her inadequacy compared to him than a justification for her losing. He overwhelmed her. Despite the statement you Wonder Woman fanboys and fangirls cling to from JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, Superman is faster than her. He showed it in FOR TOMORROW. He showed it in A LEAGUE OF ONE. He even arguably showed it in INFINITE CRISIS #1 when she tried to kill Mongul with her sword, but he stopped her AFTER she had already gone to attempt the coupe de grace. And his speed showings are simply more impressive. More numerous too? Yeah, but that's on TOP of being better, so it's no excuse. If she was faster than him ON TOP of being such a better fighter, then she'd do a whole lot better even if she's less durable AND not as strong, let alone stronger like you so desperately claim.
FINAL CRISIS? Well I don't know the exact circumstances, I know she was under some sort of control. But considering how he took her down, and HE WASN'T ACTUALLY GOING AFTER HER, but she was downed as a SIDE-EFFECT of him going to breach a force-field, I don't see any performance hindering issues being relevant here.
Now, you're not one to accuse the Superman side of making justifications. Diana CLEARLY only won because of the handicaps Superman had from his mental state in WONDER WOMAN #175 and #219. If his mind weren't so primitive, he wouldn't have been distracted giving Diana the chance to end Circe's spell with the lasso. If he actually knew the tiara was coming, he'd have avoided it. You tried to justify this point by saying Superman doesn't normally dodge things, and used Konvict hitting Superman to back your argument. Pr already pointed-out Superman generally lets himself be attacked by new opponents to gauge them. This is something you failed to acknowledge. Do you HONESTLY think Superman would've let himself be hit by her tiara considering he's been cut by enchanted edged weapons before? Do you have the balls to answer this question? I have a feeling you won't, but hey, you could surprise me. But anyways, yeah, if you actually look at how poorly Diana generally did, and we can SEE the mistakes Superman made in his mental state, then how is giving the context making excuses for Superman? Clearly Superman is much more powerful, too much for Diana to handle when he goes all-out and has his wits about him. The other fights pretty much back this.
Now, back to you're not one to accuse others of justifying things. What about all the times YOU have made excuses, invalid excuses in fact, to dismiss when Superman's blatantly overpowered Diana? MAN OF TOMORROW? You'd have a valid point, if it were not for the fact that Superman looked no better against Orion there compared to their previous fight that can't be explained by Superman already having a power-up. You tried to justify it as Orion's even more durable than Superman, and had helped. I proved you wrong about durability, and pointed-out that the "help" Orion had consisted entirely of Green Lantern restraining Superman with chain constructs for exactly as long as Superman didn't try to break them, and Barda snuck-in and blasted him before Orion threw his final punch. Then after this being hammered at you for so long and you finally acknowledge it, then you try to justify it as Orion's a great warrior. He is a pretty skilled fighter. Problem is, he showed no great skill in his fight with Superman, so that's not a justification. All you do is keep saying how Superman's powers work, he was Sun-Amped, blah blah blah blah BLAAAAAH. No matter how many times you're proven wrong, you fail to admit Superman showed no NOTICEABLE boost in power. And "noticeable" is the keyword. I admitted Superman could've been a little stronger than normal, but the reality is, it wasn't enough that it would make much of a difference. And this is corroborated by the previous issue in the storyline that Superman's MUCH stronger than Wonder Woman. She tried to use the lasso to restrain his arm, he tossed her like a ragdoll. And it wasn't like the example you gave for her fighting an Omac, that she grabbed it's body and threw it. No, she was actually trying to restrain him, and got tossed casually for her troubles. This was AFTER Superman had been fighting Green Lantern and Batman had exposed Superman to some synthetic Kryptonite. Which, while it had little effect, is worth mentioning. What about the him restraining her at the beginning of WW #219? Well, you gave a decent justification. I admitted that. But after seeing what had happened in the previous issue of the storyline, that obliterates your justification. He forced her down, and she did indeed struggle and resist. But she failed. And then when he grabs her by the throat and she fails to break his grip? Yeah, every justification you made was just pathetic. She failed to break his grip using a technique that allows you to break the grip of a STRONGER attacker, but she still failed. The examples in FOR TOMORROW? Her reluctance to fight him? If this was a rare example, you'd have a point. But there's at LEAST 3 other examples of him overpowering her or otherwise showing to be stronger than her than this, FROM the 2003-2011 time period you claim she's stronger than him in. And what about INFINITE CRISIS #1? You never even ACKNOWLEDGED that example. And there's no way you can legitimately justify it. She was trying to kill Mongul, she had already gone for the skill strike to Mongul when Superman was AWAY from her, and he stopped her before she could connect. She wasn't even thinking about him until AFTER he already stopped her.
So, yeah. You make even more justifications, and most of your justifications are NOT legitimate, are merely excuses. Actually, I'd have to say that ALL of them are, considering how you continue to cling to them after being shown they're worthless.
By the way, Blue. I'll pass that message along to the kettle. But what was it again? "You're black?" Yeah, I think that was it.