Originally posted by Batman-PrimeLook here, the point is that you said something that could be
No. 😐 I thought i was clear enough... WW has all those three have (experiance in brawls etc) + her lifelong training.
Concession acccepted.
Originally posted by Blanket
Look here, the point is that you said something that could beattributedput to Billy, Teth, and gayhomo. Now you're trying to take it back because you think WW is above them. I think it's obvious. I win you lose.Concession acccepted.
😂 Quan is that you? No, you just don't understood. MA or not, what counts is experience and training, WW has more then those named.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeWouldn't this type of logic have Wolverine, and a host of other characters far above Wonder Woman in skill?
😂 Quan is that you? No, you just don't understood. MA or not, what counts is experience and training, WW has more then those named.
And no, I don't believe Superman is above WW in skill, but following your previously mentioned logic, he would be. Also following that logic, Superman has tons upon tons of experience with brawling, and tons of 'training' with it. Just because she has more fine tuning, that doesn't mean she's more skilled (following your logic).
I just don't see how you can so readily pump up Superman's skills based on that logic (I mean, you have him as more than a half as good as WW...), and still put WW above him. I just do not.
It would, if they would train more and drink less 🙂.
Following my logic, with diana being trained since birth and still training, it's next to impossible to become better.
Superman has a lot of experiance and training but still far less then WW. He had a life after all. She just fought other since birth.
A born Gladiator will always be better.
That's why they breed muls in Dark Sun.
Originally posted by Blanket
Wouldn't this type of logic have Wolverine, and a host of other characters far above Wonder Woman in skill?
No? Diana's fought and trained her entire life and is the best of an island of immortal warriors, Clark's got a lot of experience since becoming a superhero plus training from his colleges, but Wonder Woman was born to it and has been at it even longer.
Also following that logic, Superman has tons upon tons of experience with brawling, and tons of 'training' with it. Just because she has more fine tuning, that doesn't mean she's more skilled (following your logic).
I'm getting a disconnect here, how are you getting that? Diana has as much experience as Superman, and training from birth with the Amazons.
What Batman-Prime is saying is that brawling and martial arts are both routes to skill, you can reach great skill with either, and with that, Wonder Woman is still the best. Diana has talent, skill, training, and experience, all in spades. She polishes constantly, more than Superman (heck, maybe more than Batman. One JLA showed she took Shiva and Cheetah to the watchtower from prison to train with her and give her analysis of her style from their PoV in exchange for her talking the warden into giving them perks. Bruce was mad about that).
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeI think a Wolverine supporter will make a case of all his past lives and him being God's jerking hand. Also, how do you explain Karate Kid?
It would, if they would train more and drink less 🙂.Following my logic, with diana being trained since birth and still training, it's next to impossible to become better.
Superman has a lot of experiance and training but still far less then WW. He had a life after all. She just fought other since birth.
A born Gladiator will always be better.
That's why they breed muls in Dark Sun.
Yes, I realize all your arguments now (new ones are brought up post to post, so it's hard to follow). But afterall, you did say a good street fighter or brawler could beat a 'blackbelt', and Superman is one of the best brawlers in comics.
Yes, gladiator... anyway, real life being brought up and all, how do you explain GSP being a strong canidate for one of the best p4p fighters in MMA. He hasn't had the experience or amount of training that most guys have had. Or BJ Penn. The guy is just naturally gifted (applicable to Superman), yet is 'lazy' (in MMA), and still destroys people.
Basically, Superman is above WW, or he isn't even close depending on your definition. If this is effectiveness in battle, then Superman is above her... of course his strength could make this a little biased in this regard. If this is skill, then it's no contest.
Also, btw, a good street fighter will defeat a 'black belt' due to the 'black belt's' chin more often than not.
There are a lot of faults in your arguments, IMO. And there are a lot of faults in mine as well, as I don't believe in my own arguments (just using other people's logic), but the main thing here is that Black Adam is way better than Wonder Woman.
Originally posted by Q99I said Wolverine, not Superman. Wolverine has more training than Wonder Woman last I checked.
No? Diana's fought and trained her entire life and is the best of an island of immortal warriors, Clark's got a lot of experience since becoming a superhero plus training from his colleges, but Wonder Woman was born to it and has been at it even longer.I'm getting a disconnect here, how are you getting that? Diana has as much experience as Superman, and training from birth with the Amazons.
What Batman-Prime is saying is that brawling and martial arts are both routes to skill, you can reach great skill with either, and with that, Wonder Woman is still the best. Diana has talent, skill, training, and experience, all in spades. She polishes constantly, more than Superman (heck, maybe more than Batman. One JLA showed she took Shiva and Cheetah to the watchtower from prison to train with her and give her analysis of her style from their PoV in exchange for her talking the warden into giving them perks. Bruce was mad about that).
That Superman has training as well, which iirc (not looking back) refuted the claim that WW 'trained'.
The way I see it. Diana is better than Superman because she trains more, understanding from your post and BP. However, I've been given no understanding of what she's capable of with her skill. I mean, since you guys want to teach me so much, you'd think examples would be a priority. Hence me bringing up Wolverine being better than Diana... because he has more experience and training.
Somebody give me a definition of brawling, because from the way I understood it, throwing caution to the wind and throwing bombs. I was unaware that you could achieve great skill with it.
Right, she trains.
Something, something, something, rushed post, probably missed something.
Originally posted by Blanket
Basically, Superman is above WW, or he isn't even close depending on your definition. If this is effectiveness in battle, then Superman is above her... of course his strength could make this a little biased in this regard. If this is skill, then it's no contest.
He's more powerful, she's got more combat skills, this is about the later, not the former, but I think you're underestimating Superman's combat skills, he's pretty good in hand to hand and with his powers. I personally put him at maybe 70%.
Also, btw, a good street fighter will defeat a 'black belt' due to the 'black belt's' chin more often than not.
A good black belt will have real fights under their belt too 🙂
The point is, both do-it-yourself styles and martial arts styles are ways in which one can get skilled.
There are a lot of faults in your arguments, IMO.
I think you're misreading the argument somewhere along the way, though I'm not precisely sure where.
Blanket
I said Wolverine, not Superman. Wolverine has more training than Wonder Woman last I checked.
Not from birth from an island of immortal warriors, though, and he's not as focusing on getting better than he already is. Source of training matters too, and also once you get to a certain point of hand to hand, you get to diminishing returns.
That Superman has training as well, which iirc (not looking back) refuted the claim that WW 'trained'.
No it doesn't. She's trained more and harder from a younger age.
Somebody give me a definition of brawling, because from the way I understood it, throwing caution to the wind and throwing bombs. I was unaware that you could achieve great skill with it.
Ah, no. Brawling pretty much just refers to learning to fight as you go, without formal training. It's not just throwing caution to the wind, one can be a cautious brawler, it's just less refined. Simple practice and combat experience will eventually turn anyone into a "martial artist", which is likely the ultimate origin of most martial arts out there.
Superman's been depowered several times and shown himself to be a skilled fighter, and is also better at hand to hand than quite a few of his foes powered or no.
Originally posted by Q99If it's about the latter, then why do all five of Superman's skill feats put him in the 70% of someone who's been training all their life?
He's more powerful, she's got more combat skills, this is about the later, not the former, but I think you're underestimating Superman's combat skills, he's pretty good in hand to hand and with his powers. I personally put him at maybe 70%.A good black belt will have real fights under their belt too 🙂
The point is, both do-it-yourself styles and martial arts styles are ways in which one can get skilled.
I think you're misreading the argument somewhere along the way, though I'm not precisely sure where.
Not from birth from an island of immortal warriors, though, and he's not as focusing on getting better than he already is. Source of training matters too, and also once you get to a certain point of hand to hand, you get to diminishing returns.
No it doesn't. She's trained more and harder from a younger age.
Ah, no. Brawling pretty much just refers to learning to fight as you go, without formal training. It's not just throwing caution to the wind, one can be a cautious brawler, it's just less refined. Simple practice and combat experience will eventually turn anyone into a "martial artist", which is likely the ultimate origin of most martial arts out there.
Superman's been depowered several times and shown himself to be a skilled fighter, and is also better at hand to hand than quite a few of his foes powered or no.
Right. That is highly irrelevant because the black should not lose by any way other than him not having a good enough chin.
And the do-it-yourself styles will never be anywhere near the value of actual MA styles. Unless you're a freak, ala Bruce Lee.
If you agree with him entirely, then there's no faults. Talk about misreading. Also talk about misreading everytime you try and teach me something new. Misreading. Word of the day.
No way, immortal warriors? That probably defeats Wolverine fighting in pretty much every major event in human history iirc of all his past lives/shit. All of his training with the top MA artists in Marvel, as well. Source does matter... I agree. Which is why Wolverine is not lacking in that area.
When Wolverine's h2h skills start diminishing, then that will be relevant.
Also, wtf at Wolverine not trying to be better than than he is. That must be why he was training under Shang Chi recently.
Right, Superman training doesn't refute the claim that Wonder Woman trains and that makes her auto better than Superman.
That sounds nothing like any definition I've ever heard. Although, doesn't this answer destroy the claim of a brawler defeating a 'black belt'?
I in no way believe Superman could be more skilled than Lex Luthor, Doomsday, Metallo, Darkseid, or even Toyman.
This is getting way too long though... luckily a lot of sentence answers suffices.
Anyway, I'll check back tomorrow.
Since Q99 already explained most of your post better then i would have been able to, I will give you an short answer to the other points.
Wolverine is good, as good as you can get IMO, though he gets lazy sometimes.
Karate Kid's MA work more like an Superpower.
And as said, the more you know the better your chances are. Knowledge can give you the edge, though as Bruce Lee teached, you should take the best from each style and drop the rest. One style is far from perfect, there is no uber-style that gives you the auto-win. That's why i would give the fighter with a better and broader MA knowledge the slight edge over another MA-fighter or "Self-teached fighter".
KK knows all styles (impossible but as said, superpower), he is the perfection, though that comes from pre-crisis days and as such is "broken"
I know that a good Street Fighter can beat a Black Belt 😉. I saw once an fight, an German Karate "Master" wanted to test his skill in an cage fight. His enemy was more like an hooligan, he rushed, knocked him down, and headbutted him into submission. The fight lasted 20 seconds at best. The difference was simple it seemed, while the Karate Black Belt learned his style in an friendlier atmosphere in sparring conditions he lacked the experience of fighting opponents who don't use Karate and who are ready to hurt you, the Cage Fighter however was experienced and used to the bloody side of the business.
Just an example, there might be others that favour Styles more. The crucial point is then experience and the edge might be the amount of MA skills one attained.
RL and comics might differ, you know 😛. In comics MA are portrayed often like Superpowers, though even then, heroes tend to keep up or win against them. The biggest difference in RL is the personal fitness. Some people are gifted with an better physique, simple.
Look at this bully, he can hold his own against an experienced MMA fighter (ok he sucks but still better then the bully). The Bully still doesn't stands a chance because he seemingly never had an challange in his "fights". However, the Bully is fit as a Schnitzel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbA-Cg4qaZw&feature=related
Ultimately all *any* fighting is, is learning how to hurt or disable someone while avoiding the same happening to you, and your body reacting better to do so.
X skill is X skill, no matter how you get it, and one 'nice' thing about fighting is you get great feedback on what works and what doesn't from actually fighting, plus you get to see what your opponents do and learn from them, so just fighting a lot is, in some respects, a lot like training, with your foes being the teachers. It's just generally rougher to get there and has some other minor differences.
Blanket
No way, immortal warriors? That probably defeats Wolverine fighting in pretty much every major event in human history iirc of all his past lives/shit.
Her mother and the other Amazons are something like 3,000 years old and keep in practice. Sparring is a primary form of entertainment there.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Wolverine is good, as good as you can get IMO, though he gets lazy sometimes.
There was a recent X-men where he visited a martial arts master in San Fran, and he said "You were better when I trained you 40 years ago!" (or however long) before helping Wolverine get it back with fundamentals training. He sorta has a cycle of being at top, getting sloppy, then having to have someone kick his butt back up every few years 🙂
That master, Elektra, Shang Chi, etc..
Originally posted by Desaad
Orion is over 100%, then. Dude is skilled combat incarnate. The lack of his very presence diminishes the skills of normal, earthly combatants.
You might be right, though he would be over 100% if he would live on Apocalypse. Now on New Genesis, with all those hippies he has grown soft, so 100% 😛.