Wonder Woman w/o powers runs the Street Level Gauntlet

Originally posted by tideoftime
The poster should have included the following pages, where it's quite clear who's doing the schooling (Diana showed well against them all, and was clearly the most skilled...). Now, of course, every character has *some* aspect of skill, or combat insight, that may not be had by another, and Diana was looking for such insight. But they were definitely the ones who got the better end of the deal in that story.

She may be more skilled but did she teach them fighting moves? Or was she trying to teach them to become better people?

Is she a better h2h fighter and martial artist than Shiva? Without her powers I mean?

Originally posted by 753
She may be more skilled but did she teach them fighting moves? Or was she trying to teach them to become better people?

Is she a better h2h fighter and martial artist than Shiva? Without her powers I mean?

I would say so, yes. Not in an uber-way, but essentially, yes. People around here often refer to the old Marvel Class system for strength -- in the old DC ranking system, she was a 12/13 in combat/weapon skill, putting her above Batman, Green Arrow, and several other high-enders in the skill department (BM rated a 10; GA a 12 for bow-use). Not saying that as being handed down with the Ten Commandments, or anything like that, but it should give people a numeric reference to equate things with. (It's so funnny, to me, that some people have such a time understanding that WW is one of *the* best combat fighters in DC; I mean, I'd sooner lay off her being nearly as strong as Superman, in favor of her combat skills; DC has been solid on that for 25 years now, even when they vacillated on her strength/physical power...)

EDIT: Oh, and in reference to your one question: She was trying to *both* rehabilitate them as people, *and* was showing them moves/ways of thinking about combat. The text stated this was something she had been doing on and off for some time -- off panel, obviously... In wordbox/thought bubble, she indicated something to the effect that they weren't really showing *her* anything she didn't already know, but was hoping the interaction, over time, would help them better understand themselves.

Originally posted by tideoftime
I would say so, yes. Not in an uber-way, but essentially, yes. People around here often refer to the old Marvel Class system for strength -- in the old DC ranking system, she was a 12/13 in combat/weapon skill, putting her above Batman, Green Arrow, and several other high-enders in the skill department (BM rated a 10; GA a 12 for bow-use). Not saying that as being handed down with the Ten Commandments, or anything like that, but it should give people a numeric reference to equate things with. (It's so funnny, to me, that some people have such a time understanding that WW is one of *the* best combat fighters in DC; I mean, I'd sooner lay off her being nearly as strong as Superman, in favor of her combat skills; DC has been solid on that for 25 years now, even when they vacillated on her strength/physical power...)

EDIT: Oh, and in reference to your one question: She was trying to *both* rehabilitate them as people, *and* was showing them moves/ways of thinking about combat. The text stated this was something she had been doing on and off for some time -- off panel, obviously... In wordbox/thought bubble, she indicated something to the effect that they weren't really showing *her* anything she didn't already know, but was hoping the interaction, over time, would help them better understand themselves.

Cool then.

Originally posted by tideoftime
But did you check *my* response to his statement...? 🙂

do you have the other pages? or an issue number?

I'd say Wonder Woman and Shiva are roughly on the same level.

she stops at 3 and 4 for sure she will be tired and or injured from her 1st couple of fights to put up to much of a fight.. 😎

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Prove to me shes more skilled than Thor.

Prove to me she isn't. Do you have any scans that describe Thor being anywhere as skilled as Diana? Stated he's mastered just about all forms of combat. Saying that he's the best melee fighter in the world, etc. etc. Any of those said by someone with skill as high as Batman?

As to the rest of your post, Tide has said most of what I would say in response to you. I'm sorry that repeated statements in the comics aren't enough for you. I can't do anything about that.

Originally posted by -Pr-

😂

and no, i'm not laughing at you. just at something you said that amused me.

What was it? 🙂

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Prove to me she isn't. Do you have any scans that describe Thor being anywhere as skilled as Diana? Stated he's mastered just about all forms of combat. Saying that he's the best melee fighter in the world, etc. etc. Any of those said by someone with skill as high as Batman?

As to the rest of your post, Tide has said most of what I would say in response to you. I'm sorry that repeated statements in the comics aren't enough for you. I can't do anything about that.

😬

It doesn't work that way. You claimed that she is more skilled than Thor and I simply asked you to support the statement. The burden of proof falls on you. I don't have to provd anything as I never claimed anything. I definitely could try and would most likely do an amazing job if I had the conviction, but it's 6:30 am in the morning, and I'm too lazy.

If you simply want thrown out statements, then Thor's been stated by Captain America to be a master combatant that's been trained in the arts of war for hundreds of years. Thor's been called Asgard's most efficient killer, warrior, etc.

Tide? She never replied to my post.

I'm just saying that claims and word of mouth can only take you so far. I need more conclusive evidence before I consider her beating Steve Rogers himself in this situation.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
What was it? 🙂

the fourth line.

also, would anyone please give me that issue number with shiva?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
😬

It doesn't work that way. You claimed that she is more skilled than Thor and I simply asked you to support the statement. The burden of proof falls on you. I don't have to provd anything as I never claimed anything. I definitely could try and would most likely do an amazing job if I had the conviction, but it's 6:30 am in the morning, and I'm too lazy.

If you simply want thrown out statements, then Thor's been stated by Captain America to be a master combatant that's been trained in the arts of war for hundreds of years. Thor's been called Asgard's most efficient killer, warrior, etc.

Tide? She never replied to my post.

I'm just saying that claims and word of mouth can only take you so far. I need more conclusive evidence before I consider her beating Steve Rogers himself in this situation.

Nice try, but no. You are claiming that Thor is as skilled as Wonder Woman. You started this whole conversation by using analogies with Thor. I and others have already explained why Diana belongs in the same breath with Rogers and Shiva. You yourself have already admitted that Thor is not as skilled as Captain America. So, the burden is on you my friend. The quotes you listed from Captain America do not put Thor on the same skill level as Diana.

No, but her(his?) points do speak to your claims that there is not enough evidence to put Diana on equal footing or better with Captain America. And like you, I'm too lazy to rehash it all for you.

And I'm saying that repeated statements in addition to the sparring and what not that we've seen from Diana is enough for me. This is a comic. There's no reason to repeatedly make statements like this if they are not to be taken seriously. If what you need is a story where Diana is depowered and somehow has to end up fighting and defeating Cassandra Cain, then I think you'll be waiting a long time.

As for this gauntlet, I believe skill-wise she could clear it. That's not to say Rogers or Shiva could not take her down and I believe Shiva would be most likely the one to prevent her from clearing it. Now, according to the OP's stipulations that Diana is to be depowered to a level that puts her significantly below Captain America, then yes he probably stops her too.

Originally posted by -Pr-
the fourth line.

also, would anyone please give me that issue number with shiva?

It was a bit of a run-on wasn't it 😆

I'm not sure what issue that is from sadly.

Originally posted by -Pr-
also, would anyone please give me that issue number with shiva?

Found it. JLA: Welcome to the Working Week. I don't see anything after that sparring session though. WW just asks the 3 of them to charge her blind stance and the story goes elsewhere. It just shows that she was using the 3 of them for practice to hone her skills. Unless I missed something, she was not training Shiva.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Nice try, but no. You are claiming that Thor is as skilled as Wonder Woman. You started this whole conversation by using analogies with Thor.

😬

I think you need to go re-read our discussion.

You said that she is more skilled than Thor here:

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
I also don't really see where your Thor comparisons come into play because she is more skilled than him.

I asked you to prove to me she is more skilled than Thor here:

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Prove to me shes more skilled than Thor.

And then you said:

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Prove to me she isn't.

Where did I make any kind of claim? I simply asked you to prove she is more skilled, and as you are the one who said what you said, the burden falls to you to prove your claim.

Thor's ten times stronger than Wonder Woman. I don't have to prove to you he is, you have to prove to me he isn't. 😱

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
I and others have already explained why Diana belongs in the same breath with Rogers and Shiva. You yourself have already admitted that Thor is not as skilled as Captain America. So, the burden is on you my friend. The quotes you listed from Captain America do not put Thor on the same skill level as Diana.

Explained to me? You've told me that this character said so and so about Diana. She said so and so about herself. Claims can only take you so far. Look at Mr. X. If we go by his claims you'd think he'd wreck Captain America and Wolverine at the same time. Clearly not the case.

I admitted Thor is not as skilled as Captain America, because he isn't. And newsflash, neither is Diana. It's one thing being in the same tier, or on the same level. It's another being equal to a person. Do I think Thor and Diana are in the upper echelon of skills? Of course. They're arguably the most skilled beings in their tier along with Hercules and Orion. This doesn't automatically transfer over to the kind of level of skill needed to be in the upper echelon of street level characters.

😂 Sorry, but the argument "since the complement Captain America gave Thor isn't as good as the compliment Batman gave Diana, Diana is more skilled" is honestly, just hilarious.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
No, but her(his?) points do speak to your claims that there is not enough evidence to put Diana on equal footing or better with Captain America. And like you, I'm too lazy to rehash it all for you.

Okay.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
And I'm saying that repeated statements in addition to the sparring and what not that we've seen from Diana is enough for me. This is a comic. There's no reason to repeatedly make statements like this if they are not to be taken seriously. If what you need is a story where Diana is depowered and somehow has to end up fighting and defeating Cassandra Cain, then I think you'll be waiting a long time.

It's because statements only mean so much. In the comic world, how skilled a character is, is best built on his record against opponents. It's not really fair to either Diana or Thor, because like you said, them fighting someone like Cassandra or Shiva while depowered is not very likely to happen, but that's too bad.

Off the top of my head, Kazar is a decent example. Most people think his a poor man's Tarzan, because you don't see him appear every issue or so and people exclaim in amazement how skilled he is, but going by his track record, he is one of the most skilled street level characters in all of Marvel. Dude one shotted Daredevil in their first encounter if I recall correctly. Daredevil is on the level of beings such as Batman.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
As for this gauntlet, I believe skill-wise she could clear it. That's not to say Rogers or Shiva could not take her down and I believe Shiva would be most likely the one to prevent her from clearing it. Now, according to the OP's stipulations that Diana is to be depowered to a level that puts her significantly below Captain America, then yes he probably stops her too.

Even if you put her on the same exact physical level as Rogers he still stops her. His more skilled, plus she just fought Green Arrow, Black Canary, and Wildcat previously. Diana's good but not that good.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Found it. JLA: Welcome to the Working Week. I don't see anything after that sparring session though. WW just asks the 3 of them to charge her blind stance and the story goes elsewhere. It just shows that she was using the 3 of them for practice to hone her skills. Unless I missed something, she was not training Shiva.

Oh, hold on a second -- just realized where there may be some miscommunication/term usage going on here: I won't speak for anyone else, but *I* am not saying WW was "training" Shiva, in the sense of "master-student"/"Old-Asian man- meets- Ralph Macchio", or anything like that; the first part of all of this was her using them as practice for keeping her skills sharp. I hope nobody is thinking WW was a "mentor", or anything like that, contextually, in that specific sense. (I think if we all were speaking face-to-face, my tone/inflection would be clearer...)

EDIT: Oh, and also -- if she is running a consecutive gauntlet, where people are just standing in line, and this isn't just a consecutive list, then no, she isn't going to clear it without her powers -- credibly, even Rogers would have trouble clearing this list if it were consecutive, or a puppy-pile, using Forum Rules/Setting. Sorry, again, if I have been misunderstanding/ misinterpreting how others are intending this list. If the OP will clarify it, I will likely change my answer...

Originally posted by tideoftime
Oh, hold on a second -- just realized where there may be some miscommunication/term usage going on here: I won't speak for anyone else, but *I* am not saying WW was "training" Shiva, in the sense of "master-student"/"Old-Asian man- meets- Ralph Macchio", or anything like that; the first part of all of this was her using them as practice for keeping her skills sharp. I hope nobody is thinking WW was a "mentor", or anything like that, contextually, in that specific sense. (I think if we all were speaking face-to-face, my tone/inflection would be clearer...)

No, no. it was Konton who made that statement.

Rage of Olympus: The problem with your take on the statements/situations in the comics, and my/others further elaborating on them, is that you're missing a very important context with Diana that doesn't readily apply to beings like Thor, Orion, and similar: she *has* spent a great deal of time fighting/training *without* her powers, especially when she was growing up on the island, where Hippolyta used her magic to keep Diana's powers surpressed for much of her training (as was stated in several issues of WW over the years). She has much more experience fighting without her powers than most other heavy-hitters, which is why she is one of the most skilled fighters in DC; she can fight as an (almost) ordinary mortal, *and* as an uber-powerful flying brick. To put it another way: she is essentially a Captain America who has been given near-kryptonian physical power. Now, this in no way denegrates Cap, at all; I had stated that if anyone was going to block Diana in this, it would be Steve. And when it comes to having the "heart of a fighter", or being a "true hero", he certainly matches, and possibly exceeds her, in certain contexts. But that doesn't mean she isn't as skilled as he is, because she certainly is.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Rage of Olympus: The problem with your take on the statements/situations in the comics, and my/others further elaborating on them, is that you're missing a very important context with Diana that doesn't readily apply to beings like Thor, Orion, and similar: she *has* spent a great deal of time fighting/training *without* her powers, especially when she was growing up on the island, where Hippolyta used her magic to keep Diana's powers surpressed for much of her training (as was stated in several issues of WW over the years). She has much more experience fighting without her powers than most other heavy-hitters, which is why she is one of the most skilled fighters in DC; she can fight as an (almost) ordinary mortal, *and* as an uber-powerful flying brick. To put it another way: she is essentially a Captain America who has been given near-kryptonian physical power. Now, this in no way denegrates Cap, at all; I had stated that if anyone was going to block Diana in this, it would be Steve. And when it comes to having the "heart of a fighter", or being a "true hero", he certainly matches, and possibly exceeds her, in certain contexts. But that doesn't mean she isn't as skilled as he is, because she certainly is.

And like I said in this thread previously, Thor like Wonder Woman has spent a great deal of time fighting as a mortal as well. And all of his showings are on panel (I'm pretty sure they did not reshow all if not most of Diana's past training in a depowered state.). To quote myself:

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor in a depowered state owns scores of Class 30's and keeps up with Captain America to the point he was arguably outpacing Rogers. He takes on an army of castle knights, and takes it to a dragon. Thor at a point his mortal, has lost mass and is literally dying fights dozens of metallic zombies, and still takes it to them. Hard. Even as a child Thor has shown incredible skills and agility. He isn't beating Captain America in this state either.

Thor's been in a human form plenty of times and has done extremely well. Once Loki tricked Thor into making a bet thinking that Thor would fail since he would be mortal. He was sent to a Viking village, working as a sea man, withering dangerous storms and he fought giant rats, zombies etc. and he did incredibly well.

So as you see, Diana is not the only one who has a history of doing extremely well with her skills even in a depowered state.

Disagreed. Could Diana be in Rogers tier? Sure. As skilled? Nah.

No Rage, I think you need to go back and re-read our conversations. You began by bringing up Thor (as you always do). The only reason you would mention Thor, I assume, is because you believe him to be of a skill level equal to Diana (which you also indicated in another thread). If you were not asserting this, then it makes absolutely no sense for you to reference Thor at all. And in your most recent post, you've once again claimed them equal in skill. So far the second time, no the burden of proof is not on me as I am not the one who dragged Thor into this discussion to begin with. You asserted a claim by drawing a parallel with Thor - one that I disagreed with. And it does sound nice for you to say "prove it" when you are equally incapable of proving the contrary. And I think that the info that has already been provided in this thread honestly is enough to do that alone.

And please don't try to dumb down what I said, when you are the one who attempted and failed to offer evidence. Captain America saying Thor is a great warrior or the best warrior in Asgard is nothing at all like Batman saying that Wonder Woman is the best melee fighter in the world (a direct comment on skill) or DC claiming that she is the greatest warrior in the DCU. If you think it's so silly, then you shouldn't have commented. Unfortunately, you did, however, and I merely pointed out that the comments you listed were not as impressive. Sorry kiddo.

And again, there really isn't much I can say to you if the comments made by other characters in addition to her origins and statements made by DC all coupled with the feats of skill that we have seen are not enough to satisfy you. I don't particularly care 🙂

Is no rest between rounds the default (as it was not stated in the OP)? If so, I will change my answer as well.

Bucky throws his shield and shoots her at the same time.
Dead Diana stops at 5. 🙄