FF8 Party v.s. Ganondorf

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
We're done about Yuffie, then? She can do it? I think yes, then.
Let's look at Cloud now.

I watched the scene again, I have the movie. First off, Cloud was threw and aided by his friends to be able to jump and reach Bahamut like that, at those heights, otherwise he couldn't have done it. Secondly, I have heard that he used a Limit Break there on Bahamut: 'Climhazzard'. But if this this is untrue, Cloud still was the remain enough strength to slash Bahamut, remember he was aided to be able to do it, otherwise he couldn't have even reached Bahamut.

Nothing unrealistic about Zidane. Tidus, however, was just running and evading Kuja's attacks, one of those attacks actually reaches Tidus sending him to fly by the impact (explosion). At least, that's what I can see. Why I would take that as unrealistic? That's what the creators thinks they can perform together.

But they are super-humans and Squall is performing Renzokuken on Sephiroth, they lasted just a few seconds on air before falling. Plus, are you suggesting that the Final Fantasy characters can't defy Gravity? Yeah, the rest of the game. We see Squall drawing his Gunblade with Magic (like Sora drawing his Keyblade), I think THAT is unrealistic. Or Cecil's case, but we are talking about obvious exaggerations here. Hell, I am even admitting those for you, lol. But again we need to see logically.

Right, but my point was more aimed at their battle abilities such as running up walls etc.

Also, Cloud needed his team to reach Bahamut in the air. Once he had reached him, he ran up his back of his own accord.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Right, but my point was more aimed at their battle abilities such as running up walls etc.

Also, Cloud needed his team to reach Bahamut in the air. Once he had reached him, he ran up his back of his own accord.

Ok, but not all of them runs on the walls...

Yes, he needed them, they helped Cloud with all of their strength.
Yes indeed, I agree. But I have named two possible logical reasons.

1. His Limit Break.
2. He still had enough strength to pull himself above and to slash Bahamut, after that we see he easily falls, Cloud doesn't fly.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Ok, but not all of them runs on the walls...

Yes, he needed them, they helped Cloud with all of their strength.
Yes indeed, I agree. But I have named two possible logical reasons.

1. His Limit Break.
2. He still had enough strength to pull himself above and to slash Bahamut, after that we see he easily falls, Cloud doesn't fly.

No he doesn't. I never said he did. But I see no reason to believe that, as far as Cloud running up Bahumut, his limit break had anything to do with that. If anything, the Limit Break comes from what he was doing, IE stabbing something and pulling his sword up it. His limit break doesn't come with a "temporary run up wall" ability. And that's if he was even doing a limit break.

On top of that, lok at his fight with Sephiroth. He's bouncing off walls there too, and he fight's on falling pieces of building. Also, he leaps from building to building with a single leap. Which could also prove my point.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No he doesn't. I never said he did. But I see no reason to believe that, as far as Cloud running up Bahumut, his limit break had anything to do with that. If anything, the Limit Break comes from what he was doing, IE stabbing something and pulling his sword up it. His limit break doesn't come with a "temporary run up wall" ability. And that's if he was even doing a limit break.

On top of that, lok at his fight with Sephiroth. He's bouncing off walls there too, and he fight's on falling pieces of building. Also, he leaps from building to building with a single leap. Which could also prove my point.

Cloud is running on Bahamut's back, true, but Bahamut isn't completely down-inclined so Cloud wasn't running completely straight on him, you should watch the scene again. On top of that, Cloud was aided by at least 7 people's strengths, also by Aeris (if you want to count her). And if the Limit Break also counts, then it doesn't make anything of that inaccurate or unrealistic. The point here is, that Bahamut's position towards Cloud isn't completely straight, so Cloud can/could actually run through him (on him). You can see this when you pause the scene before they reaches eachother. You can see their exactly position on air. If you want to keep believing otherwise, that's respectable.

I agree that's completely overrated and inaccurate. STILL, we have to compare that to the plot.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Cloud is running on Bahamut's back, true, but Bahamut isn't completely down-inclined so Cloud wasn't running completely straight on him, you should watch the scene again. On top of that, Cloud was aided by at least 7 people's strengths, also by Aeris (if you want to count her). And if the Limit Break also counts, then it doesn't make anything of that inaccurate or unrealistic. The point here is, that Bahamut's position towards Cloud isn't completely straight, so Cloud can/could actually run through him (on him). You can see this when you pause the scene before they reaches eachother. You can see their exactly position on air. If you want to keep believing otherwise, that's respectable.

I agree that's completely overrated and inaccurate. STILL, we have to compare that to the plot.

What do you mean compare that to the plot? Either it's accurate or it's not. I think we both know it's not, so what more is there to say?

Originally posted by TacDavey
What do you mean compare that to the plot? Either it's accurate or it's not. I think we both know it's not, so what more is there to say?

I mean, we don't really know how Cloud can really performs in a fight, right? We have a few hints now that we have better CG animations. But you say is inaccurate for all the characters, so that means we'll never know how they performed against the enemies they fought in their games and anything... That's like... denying what they could really do. If you really think so, then that's why I'm suggesting to do a comparison in their related plots. You can't say they couldn't do all of what they do in Dissidia or Advent Children (I am admit that both animations have inaccurate things, don't worry, but not all of that it is).

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, a couple of things without going through a huge list of replies.

Nephthys:

You continually assert that all the problems that Zell's limit break brings up is just the developers being stupid. Is this really your defense? Maybe Super Nova was just the developers being stupid. Maybe they were retarded enough to think the sun and galaxy could be destroyed and everything still be okay at the end.

It is FAR more logical to assume that the developers AREN'T idiots, and that they simply did what they did with Super Nova. They didn't care. They don't care about animation something realistic, they just want it looking cool.

You are faced with plot instances that down right contradict the battle animation, and you hold on with feeble defenses such as, maybe he would hit a person, or maybe he would hit a village, or maybe he would get the trajectory off. ALL of which can be said about the battle animation in the first place. In-fact, it's pretty well impossible for him to NOT hit one of those things when he does that attack. Unless, of course, he has the ability to change direction and dodge them, which completely destroys your "unable to aim well" argument.

Face facts. The battle animation simply doesn't fit. But you claim, "that's just a really big brain fart from the developers." No, I think not. I think they did what they do with a lot of battle animations. They exaggerated.

Look at Squall's Blasting Zone. It goes into space. Do you realize that it he ACTUALLY performed that attack, most of the world would be in ruins? That blade slice would cut through a large chunk of the earths surface.

They have fun with battle animations, they do it CONSTANTLY. This isn't something new and it isn't the developers being stupid.

Also, Dissidia isn't an accurate representation of the characters abilities. Squall cannot run up walls without breaking a sweat in FF8. It's made to be like AC, which was redone DBZ style to make it look cooler, but it's not realistic.

It probably was just them being stupid to tell the truth, however we can prove that it didn't occur becuase of how rediculous it is and how many logical inconsistencies there are. There are next to none of these factors with every other battle animation. And unless a battle animation is proved to be impossible, it is factually what happened.

I'll give you that they may be stylised in ways, but that doesn't mean they don't happen. Look at pokemon. Every time they throw a pokeball the background spazes out and goes a random colour. Obviously the world doesn't really do that, its just for show. Does that mean they don't throw the pokeball? No. A similar thing happens in FF8. We see Edea use her limit brake in a cut scene, its a big icicle. Use it in battle and it looks like This. Its just a stylised account of the attack. The similar thing to the pokemon example with random background changes occur throughout FF8. Logically the same thing happens throughout the game. We know that Zell runs around the world becuase theres logically nothing else he would be doing and theres indications of his immense speed, but we can logically figure out that we probably wouldn't be able to see his trail from space. Thats just for show, lol. But its illogical to say that just becuase parts are stylised, teh whole thing was made up.

Yes, all of those things could be said about the battle animation, but in this case its the players choice about whether they do it or not, taking away in-game accounts of why a character would not do those things. Characters and motivations completely disappear in battle, leaving mere tools of battle with the player in charge. Out of battle Zell may choose not to do something becuase o his personality. In battle Zell does what ever the **** you want him to.

Actually, we can see that Squall makes sure to stop the beam way short of the ground. If you can come up with a more logical way the attack happens that directly condracdicts what happens on screen, the kudos to you.

Squall can run up walls no sweat in FF8 as well, at least if Lion Heart is anything to go by. We see him dance around in mid air like he's just trying to give gravity the finger.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I mean, we don't really know how Cloud can really performs in a fight, right? We have a few hints now that we have better CG animations. But you say is inaccurate for all the characters, so that means we'll never know how they performed against the enemies they fought in their games and anything... That's like... denying what they could really do. If you really think so, then that's why I'm suggesting to do a comparison in their related plots. You can't say they couldn't do all of what they do in Dissidia or Advent Children (I am admit that both animations have inaccurate things, don't worry, but not all of that it is).

Sure, we know how they fight. Cloud fights by swinging his sword and casting magic, if he has any. Tifa fights Bruce Lee style, and and Vincent shoots people. We don't need battle animations to tell us how people fight. And loosing them wouldn't cause us to become confused at how they fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It probably was just them being stupid to tell the truth, however we can prove that it didn't occur becuase of how rediculous it is and how many logical inconsistencies there are. There are next to none of these factors with every other battle animation. And unless a battle animation is proved to be impossible, it is factually what happened.

And Zell's has proven to be inconsistent with the storyline, and with his abilities as I have continually pointed out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'll give you that they may be stylised in ways, but that doesn't mean they don't happen. Look at pokemon. Every time they throw a pokeball the background spazes out and goes a random colour. Obviously the world doesn't really do that, its just for show. Does that mean they don't throw the pokeball? No. A similar thing happens in FF8. We see Edea use her limit brake in a cut scene, its a big icicle. Use it in battle and it looks like This. Its just a stylised account of the attack. The similar thing to the pokemon example with random background changes occur throughout FF8. Logically the same thing happens throughout the game. We know that Zell runs around the world becuase theres logically nothing else he would be doing and theres indications of his immense speed, but we can logically figure out that we probably wouldn't be able to see his trail from space. Thats just for show, lol. But its illogical to say that just becuase parts are stylised, teh whole thing was made up.

The "stylised" aspect of battle animations goes far more than trails left after a running guy. Again, there is nothing else logically Sephiroth could be doing in Super Nova, or Yuffie in Landscaper, or Squall in Blasting Zone. But they don't make sense, so we see them for what they really are. Flashy animations placed in the game for fun.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, all of those things could be said about the battle animation, but in this case its the players choice about whether they do it or not, taking away in-game accounts of why a character would not do those things. Characters and motivations completely disappear in battle, leaving mere tools of battle with the player in charge. Out of battle Zell may choose not to do something becuase o his personality. In battle Zell does what ever the **** you want him to.

That's not right at all. If a character doesn't want to do an attack, they don't do it. Rydia doesn't cast fire through the beginning of the game simply because she doesn't want to. She doesn't like fire, but according to you, we should be able to tell her to cast it in battle anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, we can see that Squall makes sure to stop the beam way short of the ground. If you can come up with a more logical way the attack happens that directly condracdicts what happens on screen, the kudos to you.

Sure, it's a battle animation and isn't suppose to be taken as realistic. Even stopping it short of the ground, anything slightly above the ground would be whipped out. We're talking people, towns, animals, everything.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Squall can run up walls no sweat in FF8 as well, at least if Lion Heart is anything to go by. We see him dance around in mid air like he's just trying to give gravity the finger.

Accept that Lionheart is a... yup, you guest it, battle animation.

And Zell's has proven to be inconsistent with the storyline, and with his abilities as I have continually pointed out.

No it has not. I gave you a legitimate reason for why he didn't run to Trabia. There was no time. And it has not been proven inconsistent with his abilities at all. He's a super-human.

The "stylised" aspect of battle animations goes far more than trails left after a running guy. Again, there is nothing else logically Sephiroth could be doing in Super Nova,

I've actually watched the animation now and I can say this is wrong. It is clearly an illusion as the entire screen shatters and brakes away at the start of it. That has no other place unless to indicated the warping of reality and the visual.

or Yuffie in Landscaper

Again, I watched it and its clearly not a physical attack. The punch has no physical effects and starts a line of small explosions to the enemy where the ground balloons upwards and explodes. Its clearly magical in nature.

or Squall in Blasting Zone.

I'm glad you agree.

But they don't make sense, so we see them for what they really are. Flashy animations placed in the game for fun.

Sephiroths is an illusion, Yuffies is magical and Squall has always been able to manifest energy from his sword. They make perfect sense.

That's not right at all. If a character doesn't want to do an attack, they don't do it. Rydia doesn't cast fire through the beginning of the game simply because she doesn't want to. She doesn't like fire, but according to you, we should be able to tell her to cast it in battle anyway.

Thats a different game. FF8 has no concept of characters refusing to do things in battle, even things which are stupid and illogical. I can make Squall kill Rinoa even though he would jump out into space for her.

Sure, it's a battle animation and isn't suppose to be taken as realistic. Even stopping it short of the ground, anything slightly above the ground would be whipped out. We're talking people, towns, animals, everything.

I fail to see your point.

Accept that Lionheart is a... yup, you guest it, battle animation.

I did guess that actually. And its backed up by cutscenes and gameplay from Dissidia, solidifying that Squall can defy gravity.

Edit: Also, I always found it odd how people found it really unrealistic that final fantasiers were now superhumans rather than a guy with a sword taking out an omniversal force by running up and tapping it on the toe. They really should be on that level simply by the monsters they pwn.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Sure, we know how they fight. Cloud fights by swinging his sword and casting magic, if he has any. Tifa fights Bruce Lee style, and and Vincent shoots people. We don't need battle animations to tell us how people fight. And loosing them wouldn't cause us to become confused at how they fight.

Lol, of course. And Quistis fights hitting enemies with a Whip, right?
That's not what I meant... I meant how they perform during those fights AND doing that. CG animations from Dissidia and Advent Children shows this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it has not. I gave you a legitimate reason for why he didn't run to Trabia. There was no time. And it has not been proven inconsistent with his abilities at all. He's a super-human.

There wasn't enough time? He can make the journey in 2 seconds!

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've actually watched the animation now and I can say this is wrong. It is clearly an illusion as the entire screen shatters and brakes away at the start of it. That has no other place unless to indicated the warping of reality and the visual.

That's a load of crap. They use all sorts of visual effects to change scenes, it has ABSOLUTELY no bearing on whether the attack is an illusion or not. You are really grasping here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, I watched it and its clearly not a physical attack. The punch has no physical effects and starts a line of small explosions to the enemy where the ground balloons upwards and explodes. Its clearly magical in nature.

There is no evidence of that at all! All we see is her punching the ground and it exploding. She casts no spells, or even powers anything up. She simply punches it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sephiroths is an illusion, Yuffies is magical and Squall has always been able to manifest energy from his sword. They make perfect sense.

They make NO sense. There is no reason to see Sephiroths as an illusion, Yuffie never does anything that looks like magic at all, and Squall kills millions of people each time he does that attack. Try again.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats a different game. FF8 has no concept of characters refusing to do things in battle, even things which are stupid and illogical. I can make Squall kill Rinoa even though he would jump out into space for her.

That's completely irrelevant. I don't care if it's another game. It shows that if a character doesn't want to do an attack, they don't have to do it. Also, having Squall kill Rinoa just furthers my point. The battles are not accurate representations of what is REALLY happening. They are almost 100% separate from the actual plot.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I fail to see your point.

Squall can't actually do that attack because towns, people, a lot of things would get destroyed. Just doing it a few times in different directions would take out a large portion of a continent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I did guess that actually. And its backed up by cutscenes and gameplay from Dissidia, solidifying that Squall can defy gravity.

Oh, you got me there. Wait... Dissidia? And accurate representation of the characters abilities? When did that happen? Oh wait, it didn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Edit: Also, I always found it odd how people found it really unrealistic that final fantasiers were now superhumans rather than a guy with a sword taking out an omniversal force by running up and tapping it on the toe. They really should be on that level simply by the monsters they pwn.

If only a select few super humans could fight off monsters there would be no one left in that world. It's common place.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Lol, of course. And Quistis fights hitting enemies with a Whip, right?
That's not what I meant... I meant how they perform during those fights AND doing that. CG animations from Dissidia and Advent Children shows this.

Except those aren't accurate. Why didn't Squall just run up the side of that radio tower in beginning of FF8? Why not simply jump down it again when they were done? They WERE kinda in a hurry. What about when they came across that cliff just before the start of the radio tower? Jumping off of that was somewhat of a big deal, Zell's reaction to it confirms this. But if Squall can leap in the air like spider-man and run up walls without even breaking a sweat that should have been NO problem at all! They shouldn't have even hesitated before doing it.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Why didn't Squall just run up the side of that radio tower in beginning of FF8? Why not simply jump down it again when they were done? They WERE kinda in a hurry.

The side of the radio tower? I never said Squall can run on walls or something, what do you mean? In what part? I hardly remember.

Jump from where? From Dollet Communications Tower? That's actually REALLY high, you know? They were in a hurry because they had to complete the SeeD exam, not because the city was about to explode... Squall fall from a tower before attacking a Galbadian sodier at Deling, and that was pretty high, he has no signs of anything after the fall. He felt nothing.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What about when they came across that cliff just before the start of the radio tower? Jumping off of that was somewhat of a big deal, Zell's reaction to it confirms this.

That cliff is not as high as the Communication Tower, not even its half part. Nope, that wasn't a big deal and Zell reactions are always like that. That doesn't mean anything as he didn't suffered any injuries after that, Squall and Selphie either. Zell's reactions is to add fun moments to the game, like: GERONIMO!!!! He was having fun there. Zell fell from the Lunatic Pandora which is even higher than that cliff and felt nothing.

Originally posted by TacDavey
But if Squall can leap in the air like spider-man and run up walls without even breaking a sweat that should have been NO problem at all! They shouldn't have even hesitated before doing it.

Lmao, Spider-Man's agility surpasses Zidane's. I never said Squall can run on the walls. And this has nothing to do with anything I've asked by the way.

They really should be on that level simply by the monsters they pwn.

There wasn't enough time? He can make the journey in 2 seconds!

Actually he needs like 5 seconds to power up first. And what pray tell would he do once he got there? Lift the Garden and run off with it? Theres only 20 or so seconds until it gets hit, so really he'd just get fried.

That's a load of crap. They use all sorts of visual effects to change scenes, it has ABSOLUTELY no bearing on whether the attack is an illusion or not. You are really grasping here.

You know, using block capitals doesn't MAKE YOU RIGHT! IT JUST GIVES THE IMPRESSION THAT YOU'RE SCREAMING AT ME! And so your impression of the fight is that its actually meant to convey that Sephiroth teleports the party into the space behind 'Earth', a blue meteor shatters various planets and causes the Sun to go nova at which point Sephiroth appears as the party is engulfed in the supernova? Oh, and then teleports them back with nothing remotely damaged by this. Is that you think thats meant to convey? You, the person you uses a single animation from a completely different game over and over again to try to cast doubt on battle animations from a different game and indeed every game in existence. And I'm the one reaching. 😐

It being an illusion is the only logical explanation.

There is no evidence of that at all! All we see is her punching the ground and it exploding. She casts no spells, or even powers anything up. She simply punches it.

Theres actually a blast of light that comes off of her that would indicate shes not merely using her fists. In any case, someone punching the ground and it ballooning and exploding is impossible without magic, so she must use it.

They make NO sense. There is no reason to see Sephiroths as an illusion, Yuffie never does anything that looks like magic at all, and Squall kills millions of people each time he does that attack. Try again.

No, I think the first time was enough.

That's completely irrelevant. I don't care if it's another game.

Well you really should becuase different games have different levels of whats possible. Final Fantasy 13 seems like the characters are always in realistic believability, theres little reason to scrap their battle animations. And while in FF4 they programmed in that Rydia is afraid of fire, they didn't in FF8, so your point is moot.

Squall can't actually do that attack because towns, people, a lot of things would get destroyed. Just doing it a few times in different directions would take out a large portion of a continent.

Oh I get it- Nope, lost it. Whats your point again?

Wait... Dissidia?

Canon.

And accurate representation of the characters abilities?

Characters retained all their abilities and memories. In fact, Squall can perform blasting zone. It even goes through walls.

When did that happen?

In the game......?

If only a select few super humans could fight off monsters there would be no one left in that world. It's common place.

That just makes no sense. First off, ordinary people have guns, they don't 'need' superpowers. Secondly, thats why they rely on the superpowered protagonists to get shit done.

Except those aren't accurate. Why didn't Squall just run up the side of that radio tower in beginning of FF8? Why not simply jump down it again when they were done? They WERE kinda in a hurry.

What and leave his team mates to die or just fight for themselves? Squalls a jackass, but he's not Seifer.

Jumping off of that was somewhat of a big deal, Zell's reaction to it confirms this. But if Squall can leap in the air like spider-man and run up walls without even breaking a sweat that should have been NO problem at all!

Yeah, but Zell probably can't.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
For the FF8 party in particular, this is pretty untrue, since Ultimecia only had one attack that was very powerful, and everything else she had was kinda weaksauce by comparison.

Let's see:

Time Magic
Possession (even across time)
Stopping bullets
Elemental Magic
Absorbing time and space
Monster Creation
Making people's fears come alive
Fusing with GFs

Nothing I would call weak

Absorbing time and space

Time Magic

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, but Zell probably can't.

Of course he can, read my post, lol.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Her one powerful attack. Dissidia: non-canon.
The rest are pretty common and unimpressive. 😐 Ultimecia was a one trick pony, and the FF8 party was immune to her only powerful attack.

Most of what I listed dwarfs anything Ganon has done.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Most of what I listed dwarfs anything Ganon has done.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I lol'd. Aside from her one big move, TC, which is useless against the FF8 party, and thus moot, she's outclassed by Ganondorf. 😐

Ganondorf has never created something from one's mind, stopped a bullet, possessed people from the past, fused with a strong creation, or use time magic.