Darth Nihilus vs. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin Skywalker

Bees. My God. 😐

Edit: Also, that feat is obviously some godlike mind****ing, he could probably overwhelm Nihilus with just that.

[QUOTE=12587474]Originally posted by Gideon
[B]?

mind-fogging powers is hardly going to matter in a fight between these 4 and N, so frankly, its pointless to discuss it further.

😐

Well somebody

Spoiler:
truejedi

I haven't been corrected. I asked for information, i appreciate you giving it, and I decided it was irrelevant to the thread.

truejedi
I haven't been corrected.

truejedi
And nothing new realy in mind-clouding powers, most jedi can do things like that. Pointless to this thread, in other words.

Gideon
Two key phrases: Super Star Destroyer. Coruscant.

As in his mind-fogging powers enabled engineers to bury a 19 kilometer ship beneath a planet with trillions of people on it. He must have pooled the veritable wool over, what? Thousands? Millions? With telepathy

😐

Spoiler:
I decided you were corrected.

all you are doing is derailing yet another kotor2 thread, so i guess it hardly matters.

truejedi
all you are doing is derailing yet another kotor2 thread, so i guess it hardly matters.

😐

Well somebody

Spoiler:
truejedi

I'm not sure if you're just grouchy because of your argument with Ms. Marvel, but you did make a mistake (assuming most Jedi could perform that feat) and you were corrected.

In other words: I WIN U LOSE LOL

Originally posted by Gideon
😐

Well somebody

Spoiler:
truejedi

is very sensitive tonight.

I'm not sure if you're just grouchy because of your argument with Ms. Marvel, but you did make a mistake (assuming most Jedi could perform that feat) and you were corrected.

In other words: I WIN U LOSE LOL

meh. i don't even care enough to be grouchy. about either thread. 😎

so, lol, congrats on your victory. 💃

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
Darth Nihilus... because he could drain the life from anyone. His hunger and power was so great he could even destroy the populations of entire worlds. There is no defense against the mega drain, unless one is a wound in the Force like the Exile. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin Skywalker aren't. There's no contest, Darth Nihilus wins.

First of all, Nihilus does also show incredible power apart from the mega drain, which I'll get into later. He tears his *entire fleet* from Malachor. It is not said in a way that suggests he very slowly pulled each ship either, it is simply said, he pulled his entire fleet, and not only that, but the Ravager and likely others as well should have had no atmosphere and been torn apart long ago. Instead, Nihilus used his power to keep it all together, like a ghost ship. Nihilus seems to pretty much ignore all laws of physics, and almost carelessly uses the Force on a massive scale not seen elsewhere. He decides he wants a fleet. He doesn't hire several thousand workers to build one for millions of credits. He uses the Force to pull an entire fleet of smashed ships from the grip of the Mass Shadow Generator. Oops, they're smashed to bits, are open to space... basically they're not ships at all, or at least not ships anyone could use. No problem, Nihilus' power keeps them all together, with atmosphere. He needs a crew. He drains most of the life from some people until they're his utter slaves. Like zombies. He can stun three people, two of which are powerful Force-sensitives, in an instant. All at once. And then of course the mega drain, which he uses to consume all life on an entire planet. Including hundreds of Jedi, even a very powerful one like Vandar Tokare. The same could be done to Coruscant in the prequel era. Nihilus arrives, drains the entire planet... that's the Senate and most of the Jedi in the galaxy gone at the same time.

Now, as for the drain being instant... Yes, the power he uses on the Exile is drain, and frankly I can't believe you'd try to deny that. The Exile says "If you would feed on Jedi, then feed on me." Nihilus extends his hand, and the red drain beam extends from it. It hits the Exile, and Nihilus collapses. The Exile points out Nihilus has weakened himself due to him trying to feed on a wound in the Force, and the hunger is consuming him now. Look it up on Wookieepedia if you wish.

Also, there's Nihilus' confrontation with Kreia. Nihilus and Sion walk in. Kreia and Sion ignite their lightsabers, and Nihilus Force pushes her into a wall. Now, Kreia is a powerful Force-user. The fact that Kreia could not block the Force push is a sign of, as was pointed out, Nihilus' awesome telekinetic power. Not only that, but I'd say the drain on Kreia must have been pretty instant, since within seconds of hitting the wall, Kreia cannot use the Force to summon her lightsaber.

And of course there's Kreia herself and her confrontation with the Jedi Masters in the Dantooine Enclave. Kreia knows how to use Force Drain too, but not on the same level as Nihilus. She walks in, says a few words, and then drains three powerful Jedi Masters. All at once. Instantly. The drain is only "in operation" for a few seconds at most, showing that it does not take long either, and works on multiple people, even powerful Force-sensitives, at once. And this is Kreia, who is nowhere near Nihilus when it comes to draining. Nihilus can drain entire planets.

So, we know the drain is instant, and can work on multiple powerful Force-sensitives... If Kreia can do it on three Jedi then there's no problem Nihilus, far more accomplished in draining than Kreia, can *easily* do it on one Sith and three Jedi. That's the point. Force Drain is a technique against which there is NO defense. It is a way of feeding on the Force, on life... Nihilus took the drain to its extreme. He was a wraith, no body, just a dark spirit with robes, a skull mask and a lightsaber. His hunger and his power was almost incomprehensible. His mere presence killed... "In his wake, life dies, sacrificing to his hunger." His voice brought pain and death. He could turn others into utter slaves by draining most of their essence, leaving almost empty shells. Kreia drained three Jedi Masters. Nihilus drained Kreia. Nihilus drained entire planets. Nihilus could have drained the Exile, if she weren't a wound in the Force like him. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin aren't wounds in the Force. And if anything their great power in the Force just make them easier targets for Nihilus, since the drain feeds on the Force. Nihilus did not see in terms of individuals, but entire planets. Only several billion people to drain with a sidedish of several hundred Jedi are enough for him to notice, for him to even bother focusing on. Four Force-sensitives? Pah, Nihilus would drain them with barely any notice. They would be insignificant to him. Pretty much irrelevant. There's no contest. Nihilus wins.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome. 😛

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Are you making a Vs. thread or a statement?

Both. 😛

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
First of all, Nihilus does also show incredible power apart from the mega drain, which I'll get into later. He tears his *entire fleet* from Malachor. It is not said in a way that suggests he very slowly pulled each ship either, it is simply said, he pulled his entire fleet, and not only that, but the Ravager and likely others as well should have had no atmosphere and been torn apart long ago. Instead, Nihilus used his power to keep it all together, like a ghost ship. Nihilus seems to pretty much ignore all laws of physics, and almost carelessly uses the Force on a massive scale not seen elsewhere. He decides he wants a fleet. He doesn't hire several thousand workers to build one for millions of credits. He uses the Force to pull an entire fleet of smashed ships from the grip of the Mass Shadow Generator. Oops, they're smashed to bits, are open to space... basically they're not ships at all, or at least not ships anyone could use. No problem, Nihilus' power keeps them all together, with atmosphere. He needs a crew. He drains most of the life from some people until they're his utter slaves. Like zombies. He can stun three people, two of which are powerful Force-sensitives, in an instant. All at once. And then of course the mega drain, which he uses to consume all life on an entire planet. Including hundreds of Jedi, even a very powerful one like Vandar Tokare. The same could be done to Coruscant in the prequel era. Nihilus arrives, drains the entire planet... that's the Senate and most of the Jedi in the galaxy gone at the same time.

Now, as for the drain being instant... Yes, the power he uses on the Exile is drain, and frankly I can't believe you'd try to deny that. The Exile says "If you would feed on Jedi, then feed on me." Nihilus extends his hand, and the red drain beam extends from it. It hits the Exile, and Nihilus collapses. The Exile points out Nihilus has weakened himself due to him trying to feed on a wound in the Force, and the hunger is consuming him now. Look it up on Wookieepedia if you wish.

Also, there's Nihilus' confrontation with Kreia. Nihilus and Sion walk in. Kreia and Sion ignite their lightsabers, and Nihilus Force pushes her into a wall. Now, Kreia is a powerful Force-user. The fact that Kreia could not block the Force push is a sign of, as was pointed out, Nihilus' awesome telekinetic power. Not only that, but I'd say the drain on Kreia must have been pretty instant, since within seconds of hitting the wall, Kreia cannot use the Force to summon her lightsaber.

And of course there's Kreia herself and her confrontation with the Jedi Masters in the Dantooine Enclave. Kreia knows how to use Force Drain too, but not on the same level as Nihilus. She walks in, says a few words, and then drains three powerful Jedi Masters. All at once. Instantly. The drain is only "in operation" for a few seconds at most, showing that it does not take long either, and works on multiple people, even powerful Force-sensitives, at once. And this is Kreia, who is nowhere near Nihilus when it comes to draining. Nihilus can drain entire planets.

So, we know the drain is instant, and can work on multiple powerful Force-sensitives... If Kreia can do it on three Jedi then there's no problem Nihilus, far more accomplished in draining than Kreia, can *easily* do it on one Sith and three Jedi. That's the point. Force Drain is a technique against which there is NO defense. It is a way of feeding on the Force, on life... Nihilus took the drain to its extreme. He was a wraith, no body, just a dark spirit with robes, a skull mask and a lightsaber. His hunger and his power was almost incomprehensible. His mere presence killed... "In his wake, life dies, sacrificing to his hunger." His voice brought pain and death. He could turn others into utter slaves by draining most of their essence, leaving almost empty shells. Kreia drained three Jedi Masters. Nihilus drained Kreia. Nihilus drained entire planets. Nihilus could have drained the Exile, if she weren't a wound in the Force like him. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin aren't wounds in the Force. And if anything their great power in the Force just make them easier targets for Nihilus, since the drain feeds on the Force. Nihilus did not see in terms of individuals, but entire planets. Only several billion people to drain with a sidedish of several hundred Jedi are enough for him to notice, for him to even bother focusing on. Four Force-sensitives? Pah, Nihilus would drain them with barely any notice. They would be insignificant to him. Pretty much irrelevant. There's no contest. Nihilus wins.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome. 😛

A.) Star Wars+Physics=Paradox.

B.) With few exceptions, KotOR characters=Unknowns. Nihilis' TK is one such exception and lends him the most weight in a match. But please don't use Kreia as an example to bounce off--she's a microbe compared to the PT-NJO era greats.

C.) I don't know 100% but the likes of Palpatine and Luke can "withdraw" themselves from the Force. Nihilus is gonna have a hard time doing anything about that.

D.) There's never been any conclusive (non-cryptic) evidence that says Nihilus' Doomsday Drain is instantaneous. His Drain he used on individuals---the three Unknown masters and the Wound Exile---was immediate, yes, but the Planet Killer, no.

The planet killing drain may not be, although I see no reason for it not to be. But it doesn't matter; we're dealing with a mere four Force-sensitives. In that case, the drain is instant. And we do know the planet killing drain is fast enough so that the Jedi can't evacuate; that says it can't have taken much longer than a few minutes. And again, the way Visas says it, "When my lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died," certainly implies that it didn't take hours of preparation in a ritual which slowly wiped out Katarr. In fact, the whole idea for a complex Sith ritual goes against everything said about Force drain, and Nihilus' hunger. It's about a primal hunger which wipes out life, regardless of whether they are Force-sensitive or not, Jedi or Sith.

As for the withdrawing from the Force... that is a technique practically every single Jedi and Sith in the galaxy knows in some form or another, in the KOTOR era at least. There were hundreds of Jedi on Katarr; you think they were openly broadcasting their signature in the Force when the whole point of the Jedi conclave was because many other Jedi had already been mysteriously wiped out? Force Drain is a technique against which there is NO defense. That has been made crystal clear. So, no, hiding in the Force makes no difference, just as it does not make a difference if Force lightning is flying at you, or you're stuck on a planet targeted by the Death Star, or at the blast site of a thought bomb. The only thing that can stop the drain is not so much a Force defense method but simply the fact you're a wound in the Force that CANNOT be fed upon.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
The planet killing drain may not be, although I see no reason for it not to be. But it doesn't matter; we're dealing with a mere four Force-sensitives. In that case, the drain is instant. And we do know the planet killing drain is fast enough so that the Jedi can't evacuate; that says it can't have taken much longer than a few minutes. And again, the way Visas says it, "When my lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died," certainly implies that it didn't take hours of preparation in a ritual which slowly wiped out Katarr. In fact, the whole idea for a complex Sith ritual goes against everything said about Force drain, and Nihilus' hunger. It's about a primal hunger which wipes out life, regardless of whether they are Force-sensitive or not, Jedi or Sith.

Everything Visas says is cryptic--it's the theme of that game. We have no idea if Nihilus spent days, hours, minutes, seconds etc. consolidating power, focusing his energies--there's nothing conclusive.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
As for the withdrawing from the Force... that is a technique practically every single Jedi and Sith in the galaxy knows in some form or another, in the KOTOR era at least. There were hundreds of Jedi on Katarr; you think they were openly broadcasting their signature in the Force when the whole point of the Jedi conclave was because many other Jedi had already been mysteriously wiped out? Force Drain is a technique against which there is NO defense. That has been made crystal clear. So, no, hiding in the Force makes no difference, just as it does not make a difference if Force lightning is flying at you, or you're stuck on a planet targeted by the Death Star, or at the blast site of a thought bomb. The only thing that can stop the drain is not so much a Force defense method but simply the fact you're a wound in the Force that CANNOT be fed upon.

I hope you don't view Drain, or Lightning, or Force Choke the same way you see them in the video-games. Drain especially has a myriad of effects and uses. Kun's version kept him harnessed to Yavin's temples. Malak's Drain replenished his energy. Palpatine Drained the lifeforce of the inhabitants of Byss over a time frame of years. Nihilus' Drain was a "feeding" technique--feeding on the Force itself. His technique was mentioned by Kreia to be one as old as the Sith themselves. One such as Palpatine, who as Gideon preached, had the entire galaxy at his disposal, may very well have come across this particular device. And they're not "hiding" within the Force, he... separates himself from it. An artificial Wound of his own crafting, if you will.

Please get over your obsession with Nihilus. He's a cool character in premise but otherwise very dull.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Please stop with the poeticism.

Everything Visas says is cryptic--it's the theme of that game. We have no idea if Nihilus spent days, hours, minutes, seconds etc. consolidating power, focusing his energies--there's nothing conclusive.

Did you not play that game? The Conclave on Katarr was broadcasting their presence, hence Nihilus' presence.

I hope you don't view Drain, or Lightning, or Force Choke the same way you see them in the video-games. Drain especially has a myriad of effects and uses. Kun's version kept him harnessed to Yavin's temples. Malak's Drain replenished his energy. Palpatine Drained the lifeforce of the inhabitants of Byss over a time frame of years. Nihilus' Drain was a "feeding" technique--feeding on the Force itself. His technique was mentioned by Kreia to be one as old as the Sith themselves. One such as Palpatine, who as Gideon preached, had the entire galaxy at his disposal, may very well have come across this particular device. And they're not "hiding" within the Force, he... separates himself from it. An artificial Wound of his own crafting, if you will.

Please get over your obsession with Nihilus. He's a cool character in premise but otherwise very dull.

Pretty much all of that is some of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard, or rather read, on a Star Wars EU forum.

Palpatine "artificially creates a wound in the Force?" He "separates himself from it?" Please... That is utter and complete nonsense. Wookieepedia may not be 100% reliable, but I will quote, "A wound in the Force, also known as a hole in the Force, was a type of catastrophic disturbance in the Force. It was a weakness in the fabric of the Force caused by a traumatic event." To say different is utterly ridiculous. It is still Force concealment, or Art of the Small, or whatever you wish to call the variants, but its all the same... hiding in the Force. A wound is much different. So, need I repeat that there is no defense against Force Drain? And need I repeat that Nihilus' mere presence was killing those around him, showing that it did not require arcane Sith rituals and constant preparation to drain? (If Nihilus was even capable of such after he had became what he was).

As for the poeticism, sadly it's necessary as that's the only way Nihilus' hunger and power has been described in Star Wars work. However it was said does not deny that Nihilus, according to his former apprentice AND former master who should know him best, was a wound in the Force that had the potential to wipe out all life in the galaxy if left unchecked.

As for the Conclave, I'd like the source that states they were broadcasting their presence please. Everything I know about it says it was a hidden meeting to, in part, discuss the mysterious attacks against the Jedi. It was Atris, and Atris alone, who leaked information about the Conclave, intending to lure Nihilus there, NOT the Jedi on Katarr. The Jedi there had quite opposite intentions.

Finally, I wasn't aware I was obsessed with Nihilus. Thank you for enlightening me. I thought we were just discussing a hypothetical fight between fictional characters?

Did you not play that game? The Conclave on Katarr was broadcasting their presence, hence Nihilus' presence.

Actually, I'm not sure if it was cut-content or not, but Atris actually gave him the location, hoping he'd show up and get his ass Jedi-handed to him. It... didn't work out that way. 🙁

Thats why she wasn't there apparently.

Also: Try not to take anything too personally AncientSithLord. Most people can come off as assholes here, but thats mostly becuase they've had this argument 3-4 times already. Only about 70% of us are really assholes.

Huh, ******* is filtered, but not assholes.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
Pretty much all of that is some of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard, or rather read, on a Star Wars EU forum.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
Palpatine "artificially creates a wound in the Force?" He "separates himself from it?" Please... That is utter and complete nonsense. Wookieepedia may not be 100% reliable, but I will quote, "A wound in the Force, also known as a hole in the Force, was a type of catastrophic disturbance in the Force. It was a weakness in the fabric of the Force caused by a traumatic event." To say different is utterly ridiculous. It is still Force concealment, or Art of the Small, or whatever you wish to call the variants, but its all the same... hiding in the Force. A wound is much different. So, need I repeat that there is no defense against Force Drain? And need I repeat that Nihilus' mere presence was killing those around him, showing that it did not require arcane Sith rituals and constant preparation to drain? (If Nihilus was even capable of such after he had became what he was).

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
As for the poeticism, sadly it's necessary as that's the only way Nihilus' hunger and power has been described in Star Wars work. However it was said does not deny that Nihilus, according to his former apprentice AND former master who should know him best, was a wound in the Force that had the potential to wipe out all life in the galaxy if left unchecked.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
As for the Conclave, I'd like the source that states they were broadcasting their presence please. Everything I know about it says it was a hidden meeting to, in part, discuss the mysterious attacks against the Jedi. It was Atris, and Atris alone, who leaked information about the Conclave, intending to lure Nihilus there, NOT the Jedi on Katarr. The Jedi there had quite opposite intentions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, I'm not sure if it was cut-content or not, but Atris actually gave him the location, hoping he'd show up and get his ass Jedi-handed to him. It... didn't work out that way.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
Finally, I wasn't aware I was obsessed with Nihilus. Thank you for enlightening me. I thought we were just discussing a hypothetical fight between fictional characters?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You've not been doing this long then. Excuse my... poeticism.

So... you have any evidence, any canon proof for your "There is no defense against Force Drain?" Can you give me a canon quote or statement that says that Palaptine's... withdrawal isn't a defence?

If that trite prose is all Nihilus has going for him... and it is. His Drain is an ambiguity outside KotOR, his saber skills are average at best, and his TK is his one saving grace---but even that will not stand up to the likes of Palpatine, Luke and Yoda.

Thank you, Exodus. Conceded.

Considering your candor...

May I point out that you don't seem to have argued many of my points? You're not bringing any evidence to the table. You refuse to even concede on your point that Palpatine hiding in the Force is artificially creating a wound, which is quite frankly ludicrous... I'd appreciate if you brought some solid evidence that Palpatine hiding in the Force could be such a defense.

As for evidence for Force drain having no defense, just read the article on it at Wookieepedia. It provides plenty of references, sources and quotes. Offhand I know Kreia says "There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense," when referring to Force Drain. She also says how Force drain is the opposite of bolstering the wills and strengths of others... if you claim hiding in the Force is a defense against Force drain then you must also claim it is a defense against battle meditation. These are powers which affect individuals over a large area; just as users of battle meditation need not search out in the Force every single target and concentrate on them, users of Force drain on the level of Nihilus do not need to seek out specific targets and concentrate on draining them. Take Malachor V as an example; hiding in the Force does not provide aid against the echoes of that world. Nihilus was like a mini Malachor, a wound in the Force whose hunger slowly consumed those around him. As long as there's life nearby it's going to be affected. If it's 'worthy' of Nihilus' attention he will drain it.

The only way I see Palpatine, Yoda, Luke or Anakin surviving is that Nihilus dismisses them as far below his attention, too little to drain... Of course, if they actually challenge him that would change.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only about 70% of us are really assholes.

Comforting. 😛

Well, just don't mention Dr McBeefington's indescribably tiny penis and you'll be fine.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
May I point out that you don't seem to have argued many of my points? You're not bringing any evidence to the table. You refuse to even concede on your point that Palpatine hiding in the Force is artificially creating a wound, which is quite frankly ludicrous... I'd appreciate if you brought some solid evidence that Palpatine hiding in the Force could be such a defense.

How can I possibly argue against Nihilus when his entire fight revolves around the ambiguous Drain?

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
As for evidence for Force drain having no defense, just read the article on it at Wookieepedia. It provides plenty of references, sources and quotes. Offhand I know Kreia says "There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense," when referring to Force Drain.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
She also says how Force drain is the opposite of bolstering the wills and strengths of others... if you claim hiding in the Force is a defense against Force drain then you must also claim it is a defense against battle meditation.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
The only way I see Palpatine, Yoda, Luke or Anakin surviving is that Nihilus dismisses them as far below his attention, too little to drain... Of course, if they actually challenge him that would change.