Darth Nihilus vs. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin Skywalker

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Christ, talk about not understanding quotation marks and insinuations.

How can I possibly argue against Nihilus when his entire fight revolves around the ambiguous Drain?

That Kreia knows of. Of course being that this is 4000 years prior to the films... she MUST know all about the future. You do know what an in-universe source is, don't you?

She says, she said, she claims, she states. Do you have anything NOT backed up by Kreia's manipulative, in-universe, 4000-years-behind-schedule voice?

You are aware of Yoda's position of "greatest foe the darkness had ever seen"? Of Palpatine's position of most powerful and accomplished Sith Lord/scholar? Of Luke's demi-God status of illusion-maker and black hole mover? Of Anakin's... something. He's just Anakin right now.

If Kreia says Force lightning is generally blue-white, that does not change 4,000 years later. Kreia basically says, in so many words, Force Drain is like the opposite of Battle Meditation. This doesn't change 4,000 years later either.

As for the drain, how ambiguous is it?

1. There is no defense against it. Unless you're a wound in the Force, you're doomed. Everyone knows this and to argue against it is folly.

2. Force Drain can be instantaneous, at least when working on a few people at once.

3. Force Drain can wipe the life from entire planets, seemingly within a few minutes at the very most.

So, Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin are not wounds in the Force. They're defenseless against the drain. Nihilus wins.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
If Kreia says Force lightning is generally blue-white, that does not change 4,000 years later. Kreia basically says, in so many words, Force Drain is like the opposite of Battle Meditation. This doesn't change 4,000 years later either.

As for the drain, how ambiguous is it?

1. There is no defense against it. Unless you're a wound in the Force, you're doomed. Everyone knows this and to argue against it is folly.

2. Force Drain can be instantaneous, at least when working on a few people at once.

3. Force Drain can wipe the life from entire planets, seemingly within a few minutes at the very most.

So, Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin are not wounds in the Force. They're defenseless against the drain. Nihilus wins.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
If Kreia says Force lightning is generally blue-white, that does not change 4,000 years later. Kreia basically says, in so many words, Force Drain is like the opposite of Battle Meditation. This doesn't change 4,000 years later either.

As for the drain, how ambiguous is it?

1. There is no defense against it. Unless you're a wound in the Force, you're doomed. Everyone knows this and to argue against it is folly.

2. Force Drain can be instantaneous, at least when working on a few people at once.

3. Force Drain can wipe the life from entire planets, seemingly within a few minutes at the very most.

So, Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin are not wounds in the Force. They're defenseless against the drain. Nihilus wins.

Jesus Christ, dude...

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
Sidious wins.

FTFY

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
May I point out that you don't seem to have argued many of my points?

You need to respond to Red's, and mine post as well. Then we can look into dissecting this.

First thing though: It is canon fact that Sidious > Nihilus, from multiple sources.

If you work from there, you have set Nihilus up for a speedy death.

But please respond to the earlier posts.
Thanks.

🙂

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
First of all, Nihilus does also show incredible power apart from the mega drain, which I'll get into later. He tears his *entire fleet* from Malachor. It is not said in a way that suggests he very slowly pulled each ship either, it is simply said, he pulled his entire fleet, and not only that, but the Ravager and likely others as well should have had no atmosphere and been torn apart long ago. Instead, Nihilus used his power to keep it all together, like a ghost ship. Nihilus seems to pretty much ignore all laws of physics, and almost carelessly uses the Force on a massive scale not seen elsewhere. He decides he wants a fleet. He doesn't hire several thousand workers to build one for millions of credits. He uses the Force to pull an entire fleet of smashed ships from the grip of the Mass Shadow Generator. Oops, they're smashed to bits, are open to space... basically they're not ships at all, or at least not ships anyone could use. No problem, Nihilus' power keeps them all together, with atmosphere. He needs a crew. He drains most of the life from some people until they're his utter slaves. Like zombies. He can stun three people, two of which are powerful Force-sensitives, in an instant. All at once. And then of course the mega drain, which he uses to consume all life on an entire planet. Including hundreds of Jedi, even a very powerful one like Vandar Tokare. The same could be done to Coruscant in the prequel era. Nihilus arrives, drains the entire planet... that's the Senate and most of the Jedi in the galaxy gone at the same time.

Now, as for the drain being instant... Yes, the power he uses on the Exile is drain, and frankly I can't believe you'd try to deny that. The Exile says "If you would feed on Jedi, then feed on me." Nihilus extends his hand, and the red drain beam extends from it. It hits the Exile, and Nihilus collapses. The Exile points out Nihilus has weakened himself due to him trying to feed on a wound in the Force, and the hunger is consuming him now. Look it up on Wookieepedia if you wish.

Also, there's Nihilus' confrontation with Kreia. Nihilus and Sion walk in. Kreia and Sion ignite their lightsabers, and Nihilus Force pushes her into a wall. Now, Kreia is a powerful Force-user. The fact that Kreia could not block the Force push is a sign of, as was pointed out, Nihilus' awesome telekinetic power. Not only that, but I'd say the drain on Kreia must have been pretty instant, since within seconds of hitting the wall, Kreia cannot use the Force to summon her lightsaber.

And of course there's Kreia herself and her confrontation with the Jedi Masters in the Dantooine Enclave. Kreia knows how to use Force Drain too, but not on the same level as Nihilus. She walks in, says a few words, and then drains three powerful Jedi Masters. All at once. Instantly. The drain is only "in operation" for a few seconds at most, showing that it does not take long either, and works on multiple people, even powerful Force-sensitives, at once. And this is Kreia, who is nowhere near Nihilus when it comes to draining. Nihilus can drain entire planets.

So, we know the drain is instant, and can work on multiple powerful Force-sensitives... If Kreia can do it on three Jedi then there's no problem Nihilus, far more accomplished in draining than Kreia, can *easily* do it on one Sith and three Jedi. That's the point. Force Drain is a technique against which there is NO defense. It is a way of feeding on the Force, on life... Nihilus took the drain to its extreme. He was a wraith, no body, just a dark spirit with robes, a skull mask and a lightsaber. His hunger and his power was almost incomprehensible. His mere presence killed... "In his wake, life dies, sacrificing to his hunger." His voice brought pain and death. He could turn others into utter slaves by draining most of their essence, leaving almost empty shells. Kreia drained three Jedi Masters. Nihilus drained Kreia. Nihilus drained entire planets. Nihilus could have drained the Exile, if she weren't a wound in the Force like him. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin aren't wounds in the Force. And if anything their great power in the Force just make them easier targets for Nihilus, since the drain feeds on the Force. Nihilus did not see in terms of individuals, but entire planets. Only several billion people to drain with a sidedish of several hundred Jedi are enough for him to notice, for him to even bother focusing on. Four Force-sensitives? Pah, Nihilus would drain them with barely any notice. They would be insignificant to him. Pretty much irrelevant. There's no contest. Nihilus wins.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome. 😛

It was believed Sidious mastered just about every force technique. Maybe he was not the best in every category, but he was ONE of the best in every category, which would pretty much make him the best all around. Galen also showed far greater feats of TK than Sidious, but that did not save him from being overpowered and destroyed by Sidious' lightning.

As for Nihilus' drain, you would have to prove he can use that against Sidious before Sidious can use his superior force lightning against Nihilus. Or before Sidious can shove a lightsaber through his chest with his superior force aided speed. Kreia Knows nothing about the PT era jedi, so she has no idea what they are capable of. Yoda spent centuries developing defenses against different dark side techniques, so it's possible he knew some sort of technique against the drain.

No, you are all wrong, I agree with AncientSithLord. There is no defense against Nihilus his Force Drain, the only way to take him down is by being a wound in the Force like the Exile.

It doesn't matter how much proof there is that puts those four above Nihilus, he is just better thanks to his Force Drain.

Lucien
his saber skills are average at best

Spoiler:
teehee, iz funny cu i no there isn't one.

Prick.

truejedi
Dorsk 81 removed over EIGHTY star destroyers from a SOLAR SYSTEM in a single moment in Jedi Academy.

Wookiepedia
Fleeing back to the Jedi Academy in a stolen Imperial shuttle, Dorsk 81 and Kyp Durron arrived just in time to warn a group of thirty gathered students of an impending attack. Daala and Pellaeon were determined to wipe out the Jedi as a symbolic victory.

Fortunately, the students were not at the Great Temple, but rather at the Temple of the Blueleaf Cluster, which confused the Imperials into designating this as their primary target. Fighting against the first wave of TIE fighters, Dorsk 81 hurled giant rocks at the ships using the Force and caused them to crash. The other students did likewise, repelling the first wave of TIE fighters and bombers.

Recognizing their vulnerability in the jungle, Kyp called a retreat to the main temple. There they fought off a ground assault force, Dorsk again using the Force to good effect and knocking an AT-ST into a jungle tree. In the short reprieve between assault waves, the Jedi gathered for a planning session in the War Room. Aware of the seventeen Imperial I-class Star Destroyers in orbit, Dorsk suggested using the Force to thrust them away, based on Yoda's axiom "Size matters not", used by Luke Skywalker as one of the most important teachings in his New Jedi Order.

Arranging the Jedi on the outside points of the Grand Temple, Dorsk stood alone on the observation deck, atop a Force apex. All the Jedi channeled their power through him, and surrendering fully to the Force, Dorsk shoved the Star Destroyers end-over-end out of the star system in what possibly is the most powerful use of Force Push in recorded history. The enormous Force power flowing through him overpowered his body, burning through it and killing him. As Kyp raced up the temple to catch Dorsk, he uttered his final words: "They're gone, my friend".

truejedi
Dorsk 81 Red. C'mon now. This was written almost 20 years ago.

Originally posted by Eminence
Source?

Spoiler:
teehee, iz funny cu i no there isn't one.

Prick.

Further - if less significant - the scan at the top-right of Dorsk 81's page notes that the fleet was pushed "halfway through the Yavin system."facepalm

Eminence. I did know this. Your facepalm is pointless. My reason for listing Dorsk 81 was to point out how the fact that Nihilus used the force to remove a fleet from a planet hardly proves he is the greatest TK-er ever.
Can you prove Nihilus didn't do the same thing? He had THOUSANDS of sith working with him, and we have no proof he didn't recieve similar help.

Point still is: None of that is as impressive as Luke being immovable, even to the black hole at the center of the galaxy. AncientSithLords did not address that.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
If Kreia says Force lightning is generally blue-white, that does not change 4,000 years later. Kreia basically says, in so many words, Force Drain is like the opposite of Battle Meditation. This doesn't change 4,000 years later either.

It is entirely possible for there to have been no defense against the infantry version of the drain (the one that she used on the Masters, and (presumably) the one N. used on her before the "indignities"😉 at the time she was speaking. Luckily, knowledge is not static. So:

As for the drain, how ambiguous is it?

1. There is no defense against it. Unless you're a wound in the Force, you're doomed. Everyone knows this and to argue against it is folly.

2. Force Drain can be instantaneous, at least when working on a few people at once.

3. Force Drain can wipe the life from entire planets, seemingly within a few minutes at the very most.

So, Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin are not wounds in the Force. They're defenseless against the drain. Nihilus wins. [/B]

Tj
You need to respond to Red's, and mine post as well. Then we can look into dissecting this.

DE
Well, just don't mention Dr McBeefington's indescribably tiny penis and you'll be fine.

lawl activity
[did gideon post but be beyond my [newest first] vision? darn it alot]

edit:

we have no proof he didn't recieve similar help.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
First of all, Nihilus does also show incredible power apart from the mega drain, which I'll get into later. He tears his *entire fleet* from Malachor. It is not said in a way that suggests he very slowly pulled each ship either, it is simply said, he pulled his entire fleet, and not only that, but the Ravager and likely others as well should have had no atmosphere and been torn apart long ago.

Instead, Nihilus used his power to keep it all together, like a ghost ship. Nihilus seems to pretty much ignore all laws of physics, and almost carelessly uses the Force on a massive scale not seen elsewhere. He decides he wants a fleet. He doesn't hire several thousand workers to build one for millions of credits. He uses the Force to pull an entire fleet of smashed ships from the grip of the Mass Shadow Generator. Oops, they're smashed to bits, are open to space... basically they're not ships at all, or at least not ships anyone could use. No problem, Nihilus' power keeps them all together, with atmosphere. He needs a crew. He drains most of the life from some people until they're his utter slaves. Like zombies. He can stun three people, two of which are powerful Force-sensitives, in an instant. All at once. And then of course the mega drain, which he uses to consume all life on an entire planet. Including hundreds of Jedi, even a very powerful one like Vandar Tokare. The same could be done to Coruscant in the prequel era. Nihilus arrives, drains the entire planet... that's the Senate and most of the Jedi in the galaxy gone at the same time.

No one here will tell you that N is trivial. But we have muliple sources that state Darth Sidious is the most powerful DLOTS. Basically, anything Nihilus displays to prove his power STILL falls short of the canon quotes that put Sidious at the top.

Now, as for the drain being instant... Yes, the power he uses on the Exile is drain, and frankly I can't believe you'd try to deny that. The Exile says "If you would feed on Jedi, then feed on me." Nihilus extends his hand, and the red drain beam extends from it. It hits the Exile, and Nihilus collapses. The Exile points out Nihilus has weakened himself due to him trying to feed on a wound in the Force, and the hunger is consuming him now. Look it up on Wookieepedia if you wish.

Wookipedia is not a canon source. It is someone's intepretation of what they saw in a cutscene. You simply can't prove what you are saying here.
YOU may use wookipedia to hunt me down a real source, and then you will have proof, but I promise you, such a source doesn't exist.

You think that cutscene sets up, and looks like a drain. If i don't think it looks that way, you can't prove i'm wrong, meaning you can't prove it was a drain. You would need another source. (which i'm open to , but i know doesn't exist. )

If it was the drain, where did you get the idea that it was instant? Nothing that you said supports that.

Also, there's Nihilus' confrontation with Kreia. Nihilus and Sion walk in. Kreia and Sion ignite their lightsabers, and Nihilus Force pushes her into a wall. Now, Kreia is a powerful Force-user. The fact that Kreia could not block the Force push is a sign of, as was pointed out, Nihilus' awesome telekinetic power. Not only that, but I'd say the drain on Kreia must have been pretty instant, since within seconds of hitting the wall, Kreia cannot use the Force to summon her lightsaber.

Where is the proof of a drain? Kreia couldn't use the force to summon her lightsaber because she was stunned from hitting the wall. (at least, that could be another interpretation.) you aren't helping yourself so far.

Kreia is absolutely nowhere near the level of Sidious, Luke, or Yoda in TK. When DOES she use TK? You saying: "Now, Kreia is a powerful Force-user" Means absolutely nothing. It is relative to nothing else.

And of course there's Kreia herself and her confrontation with the Jedi Masters in the Dantooine Enclave. Kreia knows how to use Force Drain too, but not on the same level as Nihilus. She walks in, says a few words, and then drains three powerful Jedi Masters. All at once. Instantly. The drain is only "in operation" for a few seconds at most, showing that it does not take long either, and works on multiple people, even powerful Force-sensitives, at once. And this is Kreia, who is nowhere near Nihilus when it comes to draining. Nihilus can drain entire planets.

Nothing Kreia does has any relevance to what Nihilus is capable of.

So, we know the drain is instant, and can work on multiple powerful Force-sensitives...

If Kreia can do it on three Jedi then there's no problem Nihilus, far more accomplished in draining than Kreia, can *easily* do it on one Sith and three Jedi.

That's the point. Force Drain is a technique against which there is NO defense.

It is a way of feeding on the Force, on life... Nihilus took the drain to its extreme. He was a wraith, no body, just a dark spirit with robes, a skull mask and a lightsaber. His hunger and his power was almost incomprehensible. His mere presence killed... "In his wake, life dies, sacrificing to his hunger." His voice brought pain and death. He could turn others into utter slaves by draining most of their essence, leaving almost empty shells. Kreia drained three Jedi Masters. Nihilus drained Kreia. Nihilus drained entire planets. Nihilus could have drained the Exile, if she weren't a wound in the Force like him. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin aren't wounds in the Force. And if anything their great power in the Force just make them easier targets for Nihilus, since the drain feeds on the Force. Nihilus did not see in terms of individuals, but entire planets. Only several billion people to drain with a sidedish of several hundred Jedi are enough for him to notice, for him to even bother focusing on. Four Force-sensitives? Pah, Nihilus would drain them with barely any notice. They would be insignificant to him. Pretty much irrelevant. There's no contest. Nihilus wins.
[/B]

you don't understand the meaning of proof at this point. This entire thing is pure speculation. You are using Kreia's feats to prove what Nihilus can do, for crying out loud. It just doesn't work.
You are welcome to your opinion, but you can't present it as fact.

red, we replied at the same time again. Double-whammy is the name of the game i suppose.

Originally posted by truejedi
red, we replied at the same time again. Double-whammy is the name of the game i suppose.

Tractor beams?
wutno

its a possible explanation. Not that it is likely, but since the quote is "Nihilus tore his fleet from the gravity-well at Malachor" We really don't have proof that he DID use the force, and DIDN'T use tractor beams.

Except that if he was on the planet then it is unclear how he would actually use tractor beams?

So just no

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Except that if he was on the planet then it is unclear how he would actually use tractor beams?

So just no

of course its unclear. but lack of clarity isn't proof.

unclear as in impossible for him to

not at all, actually. If he was on the planet anyway, the word "ripped from" is erroneous. You can't rip something from someplace you already are.

But we are arguing schematics.

😂

truejedi
Eminence. I did know this.

truejedi
Dorsk 81 removed over EIGHTY star destroyers from a SOLAR SYSTEM in a single moment in Jedi Academy.

truejedi
Your facepalm is pointless.

truejedi
My reason for listing Dorsk 81 was to point out how the fact that Nihilus used the force to remove a fleet from a planet hardly proves he is the greatest TK-er ever.

truejedi
Can you prove Nihilus didn't do the same thing? He had THOUSANDS of sith working with him, and we have no proof he didn't recieve similar help.