Tj, that was a weak deflection. Faunus can call Burden of Proof on you now. (What with your failure of mistakage there, I'm not sure he would be out of line. That was pure speculation. As our friend acquaintance DS would say, "reaching."
Spoiler:)
DS doesn't have friends, so it was inaccurate to call him one. I apologize.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Tj, that was a weak deflection. Faunus can call Burden of Proof on you now. (What with your failure of mistakage there, I'm not sure he would be out of line. That was pure speculation. As ourfriendacquaintance DS would say, "reaching."Spoiler:)
DS doesn't have friends, so it was inaccurate to call him one. I apologize.
mistakage?
truejediThe edit is an improvement, but Anakin being Yoda's illegitimate lovechild isn't outside the realm of possibility either. That doesn't make it a valid point in this debate.
Its not outside the realm of possibility.
The rather simple point I was making before you tried your hand at deflection was that you screwed up your citation of the Yavin incident. You then appeared to chide Nemesis for not being familiar with it [via Dorsk] (which triggered the facepalm).
You're refusing to admit you were wrong, which apparently happened two pages ago with Gideon.
If you aren't wrong, the first explanation that comes to mind requires that you intentionally ignored the discrepancies between your version of the Yavin incident and the real one - in which Dorsk 81 shoves seventeen (not "EIGHTY"😉 Star Destroyers halfway through the system while standing atop a Force apex and uniting the power of thirty Jedi and Kyp Durron with his own - to draw some parallel to the possibility that Nihilus had "similar help" from [presumably?] some of the "THOUSANDS of Sith working with him," which would reconcile your last few posts with your assertion that "[you] did know [about the above discrepancies]," all of which seems so incredibly unnecessary and stupid - given the contention you'd apparently been trying to have me disprove and the incontrovertible distortion of an important numerical figure - that I won't even bother coming up with a second one.
The "absence of proof" argument only goes so far, and in this case it would appear that you're only using it to cover for your previous mistake, which again seems absurd because as noted above, you wouldn't even be pulling that off. How does the specific feat of Dorsk 81 [+ Force apex + Kyp Durron + thirty Jedi] shoving seventeen Star Destroyers halfway through a star system suggest that Nihilus isn't "the greatest [I imagine individual?] TK-er ever"?
Further, don't make the mistake of assuming I'm debating for Nihilus because I addressed a mistake in the opposition's argument, or even that I'm addressing the case at large at all. I almost included a disclaimer at the end of that first post to dissuade you or anyone else from doing something like this, but decided no one would be tactless enough to try it.
Good job.
Originally posted by Eminence
The edit is an improvement, but Anakin being Yoda's illegitimate lovechild isn't outside the realm of possibility either. That doesn't make it a valid point in this debate.
What is the point of this debate Faunus? What is valid in this debate was whether or not Nihilus has greater TK ability than Luke, Yoda, or Sidious. Red stated that his feat of "ripping a fleet" out of the gravity well at malachor was the greatest Tk feat on record. I respectfully disagreed, saying that the Dorsk 81 feat was greater.
The rather simple point I was making before you tried your hand at deflection was that you screwed up your citation of the Yavin incident. You then appeared to chide Nemesis for not being familiar with it [via Dorsk] (which triggered the facepalm).
If you don't believe me on that, check back: That is the same post in which i listed Luke's feat: (black hole, center of galaxy, etc.)
The whole point of that post was to disagree with Kyle that N. had the greatest feat in history. If I am making that point, why would i bring up the other jedi on Yavin? The feat occurred, and it was greater than N., and that was all that mattered.
When i referenced it the first time, I assumed Red would know what I was talking about, so why would I include the details? And why would I intentionally mis-represent something about star wars on THIS website? Like there is no one around who would catch me in my "deceit"? You think i don't know better than that? You insult me.
Finally: I was not chiding Red, and I'm pretty sure he knew that. We were having a perfectly civil discourse.
You're refusing to admit you were wrong, which apparently happened two pages ago with Gideon.
Gideon got pissy because I wasn't really interested in Sidious's mind-fogging powers. It was irrelevant to this thread, and we ALL know that Sidious has great powers in that category based on his ability to limit the Force for 10,000 Jedi. It was irrelevant. In all honesty,
If you can explain to me whatever the hell Gideon was talking on about off-topic, you will have done better than Gideon. Mostly he just used emoticons.
If you aren't wrong, the first explanation that comes to mind requires that you intentionally ignored the discrepancies between your version of the Yavin incident and the real one - in which Dorsk 81 shoves seventeen (not "EIGHTY"😉 Star Destroyers halfway through the system while standing atop a Force apex and uniting the power of thirty Jedi and Kyp Durron with his own - to draw some parallel to the possibility that Nihilus had "similar help" from [presumably?] some of the "THOUSANDS of Sith working with him," which would reconcile your last few posts with your assertion that "[you] did know [about the above discrepancies]," all of which seems so incredibly unnecessary and stupid - given the contention you'd apparently been trying to have me disprove and the incontrovertible distortion of an important numerical figure - that I won't even bother coming up with a second one.
I tried to read this sentence 3 times. It is confusing. Try reading this one sentence by itself, and tell me again what you are accusing me of.
I think you are saying I'm reaching, and I freely admit that. "realm of possibility" should clue you in on that. My personal opinion is that N. did just what Tobin and Kreia said he did. He pulled that fleet up in a moment.
There is, however, no proof of that. I have given you the scenario of the Sith assistants as a mere example of something else that could have affected the small amount of information we have. I would have to be a fool to believe it happened like that, and I don't.
My point is, you can't prove he pulled the fleet out by himself anymore than I can prove he had help. We have two different scenarios (by himself vs. thousands of helpers) and can't prove either one. They are equal in that regard.
The "absence of proof" argument only goes so far, and in this case it would appear that you're only using it to cover for your previous mistake, which again seems absurd because as noted above, you wouldn't even be pulling that off. How does the specific feat of Dorsk 81 [+ Force apex + Kyp Durron + thirty Jedi] shoving seventeen Star Destroyers halfway through a star system suggest that Nihilus isn't "the greatest [I imagine individual?] TK-er ever"?
It was followed up by the Luke incident to show that even one of the combatants in the fight had a greater feat.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Further, don't make the mistake of assuming I'm debating for Nihilus because I addressed a mistake in the opposition's argument, or even that I'm addressing the case at large at all. I almost included a disclaimer at the end of that first post to dissuade you or anyone else from doing something like this, but decided no one would be tactless enough to try it.
Obviously not. You notice I haven't even attempted to engage you in the actual debate at all.
truejedi
What is the point of this debate Faunus?
EminenceFurther, I demand a concession.
The rather simple point I was making before you tried your hand at deflection was that you screwed up your citation of the Yavin incident[.]
And cash.
truejediNot in this thread.
What is valid in this debate was whether or not Nihilus has greater TK ability than Luke, Yoda, or Sidious. Red stated that his feat of "ripping a fleet" out of the gravity well at malachor was the greatest Tk feat on record.
Red Nemesis"Some of the strongest and most impressive" =/= "the greatest."
No, N. wins because he has some of the strongest and most impressive telekinesis found in the series.
truejediWhich is likely true, but an enormously stupid comparison to make. Dorsk 81 had the backing of a Force apex, thirty Jedi students, and Kyp Durron. Is there any evidence that Nihilus had remotely similar assistance, if any?
I respectfully disagreed, saying that the Dorsk 81 feat was greater.
truejediNihilus destroyed the Jedi. Therefore Nihilus = Sidious, because Sidious also destroyed the Jedi!
My screw-up of the Yavin incident was in the number of Star Destroyers. I was honestly thinking it was 80, but you say it is 17, so we will leave it at that. The entire point of introducing Dorsk was to say that Nihilus's feat was NOT the greatest in the mythos. Whether dorsk had help or not is immaterial when it comes down to which feat was greatest.
You can't make a fair comparison if you remove every goddamn detail of a given event.
truejediNope. That was the next post.
If you don't believe me on that, check back: That is the same post in which i listed Luke's feat: (black hole, center of galaxy, etc.)
truejediWhich he never said to begin with.
The whole point of that post was to disagree with Kyle that N. had the greatest feat in history.
truejediSee above.
If I am making that point, why would i bring up the other jedi on Yavin? The feat occurred, and it was greater than N., and that was all that mattered.
truejediYou tell me.
When i referenced it the first time, I assumed Red would know what I was talking about, so why would I include the details? And why would I intentionally mis-represent something about star wars on THIS website? Like there is no one around who would catch me in my "deceit"? You think i don't know better than that?
truejediChiding doesn't necessitate vitriol.
Finally: I was not chiding Red, and I'm pretty sure he knew that. We were having a perfectly civil discourse.
truejediLooks like a reprimand to me.
Dorsk 81 Red. C'mon now. This was written almost 20 years ago.
truejediLater.
Gideon got pissy because I wasn't really interested in Sidious's mind-fogging powers. It was irrelevant to this thread, and we ALL know that Sidious has great powers in that category based on his ability to limit the Force for 10,000 Jedi. It was irrelevant. In all honesty,
If you can explain to me whatever the hell Gideon was talking on about off-topic, you will have done better than Gideon. Mostly he just used emoticons.
truejediI'm very proud of it.
I tried to read this sentence 3 times. It is confusing.
[i]truejedi
b.) SmudgingIgnoring the facts about the Dorsk incident was stupid.
truejediThen don't waste my time bringing it to the table, TJ.
I think you are saying I'm reaching, and I freely admit that. "realm of possibility" should clue you in on that. My personal opinion is that N. did just what Tobin and Kreia said he did. He pulled that fleet up in a moment.
There is, however, no proof of that. I have given you the scenario of the Sith assistants as a mere example of something else that could have affected the small amount of information we have. I would have to be a fool to believe it happened like that, and I don't.
truejedi
Obviously not. You notice I haven't even attempted to engage you in the actual debate at all.
truejediTell me what that had to do with my original post to you.
Can you prove Nihilus didn't do the same thing? He had THOUSANDS of sith working with him, and we have no proof he didn't recieve similar help.