Originally posted by Wild Shadow
being a herald doesnt equate to good combat skills in melee usually its quiet the opposite,..
He basically fought herald levelers at close range, who using their powers at close range (Ravenous and Surfer being examples). They have been proven to be adept at using their powers and that equates to their "combat skill" with regards to the melee combat in question.
If by "combat skill" you mean MA skill, then I will have to ask what possible relevance that has to this portion of the debate.
Originally posted by jinzin
except speed, fighting skill, or damage soak. but she's stronger... lol.. typical kmc
That's just the thing... Gamora is faster and has better fighting skills... As i said virtually every significant area of this battle... is favoring Gamora. It's really that simple. Grasping at straws and using fallacies over and over again don't change that simple fact.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
It's funny that you use his failed arguments to support your own.Here are a 2 things to think about:
1) No one can use ALL their powers in a fight. Especially in comic fights. This is even more true with any combatant that has the level of versatility as Ronan does. This is NO indication that they are not fighting effectively. With this kind of faulty reasoning, one can make a point that the Surfer wasn't fighting Thanos effectively in any of their fights because he didnt use all and THEN use this to draw a parallel to imply that the Surfer and Thanos fights were all inconclusive. Get this through your head. Geez.What's funny is that you claim both seem to read Wolverine comics and then throw an argument like this on the board....
2) So what srank's been saying (and you seem to be advocating) is that Ronan would NEED to BFR Gamora in order to survive against her in H2H? Ronan who has fought high heralds in the past in melee and managed to hold his own? How exactly does this help you argument again?
What IS an indication of not fighting effectively is NOT FIGHTING EFFECTIVELY.
Ronan opted to melee almost the entire fight. He had her right dead to rights several times throughout the fight and simply let his advantage go, why would he do that? That's not fighting effectively.
What we're suggesting is that Ronan has multiples of powers where he doesn't NEED to fight her hand to hand which makes a fight where he opted to do so multiple times against an opponent who is better than him at that capacity VERY suspect. As we stated before, we could have told you Gamora was > Ronan in h2h before the fight. 😐
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That's just the thing... Gamora is faster and has better fighting skills... As i said virtually every significant area of this battle... is favoring Gamora. It's really that simple. Grasping at straws and using fallacies over and over again don't change that simple fact.
Based on what?
What proves her a better fighter? Wolverine has better skill feats and more of them.
What makes her faster? Running by Ronan and immediately getting caught? Again, Wolverine has better speed feats and more of them.
Those would BE "simple facts" if you had any proof, no one does because that proof doesn't exist. 😕
Originally posted by jinzin
It would be a failed argument if anyone had a successful rebutle, no one did.What IS an indication of not fighting effectively is NOT FIGHTING EFFECTIVELY.
Mate you're not getting it. Lets say for example Batman fought Superman and Superman used his superspeed but didn't use his laser vision or freeze breath. Regardless of wether Superman wasn't using his powers effectively doesn't make it any less of an impressive feats.
Originally posted by jinzin
Ronan opted to melee almost the entire fight. He had her right dead to rights several times throughout the fight and simply let his advantage go, why would he do that? That's not fighting effectively.What we're suggesting is that Ronan has multiples of powers where he doesn't NEED to fight her hand to hand which makes a fight where he opted to do so multiple times against an opponent who is better than him at that capacity VERY suspect. As we stated before, we could have told you Gamora was > Ronan in h2h before the fight. 😐
Well thats interesting he fought Nebula in a battlesuit and the herald level Ravenous. In fact he fought Ravenous twice and from what I remember both those fights werw 100% melee. So I guess all those fights were suspect as well. If you look at how he fought in the Annihilation series he actually used more powers against Gamora than he did with anybody else.
No he didn't have her dead to rights several times. C'mon man stop exaggerting. I think theres one example and thats just Ronan having a brief advantage.
Originally posted by Deadline
Mate you're not getting it. Lets say for example Batman fought Superman and Superman used his superspeed but didn't use his laser vision or freeze breath. Regardless of wether Superman wasn't using his powers effectively doesn't make it any less of an impressive feats.Well thats interesting he fought Nebula in a battlesuit and the herald level Ravenous. In fact he fought Ravenous twice and from what I remember both those fights werw 100% melee. So I guess all those fights were suspect as well. If you look at how he fought in the Annihilation series he actually used more powers against Gamora than he did with anybody else.
No he didn't have her dead to rights several times. C'mon man stop exaggerting. I think theres one example and thats just Ronan having a brief advantage.
Well, Batman did fight Superman and Superman used all of his tricks and Batman did well but it is still thrown out of the window as PIS.
Can the same be said for this fight?
Hell, Nightwing has fought bats and Batman had all of Supes powers and nightwing BLITZED him. Can that also be thrown out of the window as PIS?
If the answer is yes than it is pretty safe to say that the Ronan fight was PIS also.
Originally posted by Deadline
Mate you're not getting it. Lets say for example Batman fought Superman and Superman used his superspeed but didn't use his laser vision or freeze breath. Regardless of wether Superman wasn't using his powers effectively doesn't make it any less of an impressive feats.Well thats interesting he fought Nebula in a battlesuit and the herald level Ravenous. In fact he fought Ravenous twice and from what I remember both those fights werw 100% melee. So I guess all those fights were suspect as well. If you look at how he fought in the Annihilation series he actually used more powers against Gamora than he did with anybody else.
No he didn't have her dead to rights several times. C'mon man stop exaggerting. I think theres one example and thats just Ronan having a brief advantage.
Uh, yeah that's exactly what it does... We've seen Batman stall, stalemate or neutralize superman like what now? Half a dozen times on panel and several off panel.. are people about to seriously start arguing that Batman's at Supes' level?
And he gave up using those powers immediately after he put them into effect and completely stopped Gamora's assault... That'snot suspect? ok. 🙄
There's several, he did and we already went over them earlier in the thread.
Originally posted by jinzinEvery...single...post...
his... uhhh. career.. have you read the thread?
Originally posted by jinzinshe's stronger,got better speed and fighting style.Only thing wolverine has on her is a very large damage soak.
except speed, fighting skill, or damage soak. but she's stronger... lol.. typical kmc
Originally posted by ParmaniacOver the internet sarcasm cannot be detected.
I hope you realise that it was sarcasm...
Originally posted by jinzin
in a swim suit contest perhaps.
Originally posted by Omega VisionOr both.
Or in a fight.
Originally posted by Wild ShadowUnless you're a special case like Gamora who possesses equal mastery of armed and unarmed techniques from AT LEAST 83.4% of known space faring cultures.
being a herald doesnt equate to good combat skills in melee usually its quiet the opposite,..
Originally posted by jinzinYes, in addition to melee, using several abilities ranging from blasting, environmental manipulation, stasis fields, matter/energy manipulation, and full-power blasts is not fighting effectively.
It would be a failed argument if anyone had a successful rebutle, no one did.What IS an indication of not fighting effectively is NOT FIGHTING EFFECTIVELY.
Ronan opted to melee almost the entire fight. He had her right dead to rights several times throughout the fight and simply let his advantage go, why would he do that? That's not fighting effectively.
Ronan didn't opt to melee when he got her into a stasis field and decided to capitalize with a full-power blast. How in the world are you characterizing using a point-blank full-power blast as "simply let[ting] his advantage go?" Seriously? What else would a combatant do when they have their foe locked down for the moment other than use their most potent attack? And this is Ronan fighting ineffectively?
Originally posted by jinzinYes. And Ronan used them. And they didn't put Gamora down. Point-blank full-power blast. Didn't even slow her down. Your incredulity that Gamora can fight at that level doesn't translate to a downgrading of Ronan's effectiveness. You are literally just trying to bring the performance of both Ronan and Gamora in that fight down to Wolverine's level to avoid conceding that Wolverine can't fight at that level. And it's painfully transparent.
What we're suggesting is that Ronan has multiples of powers where he doesn't NEED to fight her hand to hand which makes a fight where he opted to do so multiple times against an opponent who is better than him at that capacity VERY suspect. As we stated before, we could have told you Gamora was > Ronan in h2h before the fight.
Since you felt compelled to drag Thor's curbstompage of Wolverine into this, Thor doesn't use antiforce blasts, godblasts, gravity-nullification, energy absorption, matter transmutation, Belt of Strength summoning, Warrior Madness, planet-leveling storms/Mjolnir swings/Mjolnir blasts, impenetrable forcefields, instant healing, soul-sucking blasts, etc. altogether in any of his fights. So what? Now every fight that Thor's had that didn't involve every single one of those abilities means Thor fought ineffectively? Garbage. As are your arguments here concerning Ronan.
Trying to transplant Wolverine into that fight and suggesting he could perform as well as Gamora did is comedy. And bottom-line, it's a desperate ploy to avoid having to admit that Gamora simply operates on another level than Wolverine. Trying to analogize Thor's curbstompage only serves to punctuate that denial.
And dealing with the inanity of such arguments completely detracts from one SIMPLE FACT: Gamora didn't even choose to bring out Godslayer until the climax of the fight! At which point, Ronan was forced to try to manipulate it which caused the backlash of energies that knocked them both out! So if ANYTHING, that fight is an illustration of Gamora not using the fullest extent of her abilities by not pulling out her greatest weapon until the very end! Lord.
Gamora wins. Not even a question.
Originally posted by Black bolt z
she's stronger,got better speed and fighting style.Only thing wolverine has on her is a very large damage soak.
She's stronger, no one ever debated that.
Superior speed? Prove it.
She has one go-to speed feat from her entire career and it's not NEARLY enough to say she's better than Wolverine.
Fighting Ability? Prove it, again Wolverine's actually done as much/more with his fighting ability using less strength to do it.
And having a massive damage soak advantage over Gamora is a HUGE advantage over someone who's only advantage over him is strength.
He can land lethal counters and take shots to capitalize on openings... Gamora has to fight flawlessly. She won't.
Originally posted by jinzin
It would be a failed argument if anyone had a successful rebutle, no one did.What IS an indication of not fighting effectively is NOT FIGHTING EFFECTIVELY.
Ronan opted to melee almost the entire fight. He had her right dead to rights several times throughout the fight and simply let his advantage go, why would he do that? That's not fighting effectively.
What we're suggesting is that Ronan has multiples of powers where he doesn't NEED to fight her hand to hand which makes a fight where he opted to do so multiple times against an opponent who is better than him at that capacity VERY suspect. As we stated before, we could have told you Gamora was > Ronan in h2h before the fight. 😐
Geez, please read my post. My point 1 was the rebuttal, geez.
Let me repeat it for good measure:
Under your flawed argument, NO ONE with a varied powerset can fight effectively.
Under your flawed argument, NO ONE with a varied powerset can fight effectively.
Under your flawed argument, NO ONE with a varied powerset can fight effectively.
Do you get it now???
The gravity cancellation move will only work to temporarily BFR Gamora and cannot be proven to KO her as she has managed to soak hits in this same fights that can be argued as to do more damage than a fall from any height could inflict.
Ronan has fought more effectively and used a more varied set of attacks in this encounter than most of his other appearances on record throughout his entire career, I CANNOT believe that you keep INSISTING on trying to downplay Gamora's feat by trying to state that Ronan wasn't fighting effectively here. Are you high???
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Geez, please read my post. My point 1 was the rebuttal, geez.Let me repeat it for good measure:
Under your flawed argument, NO ONE with a varied powerset can fight effectively.
Under your flawed argument, NO ONE with a varied powerset can fight effectively.
Under your flawed argument, NO ONE with a varied powerset can fight effectively.
Do you get it now???
The gravity cancellation move will only work to temporarily BFR Gamora and cannot be proven to KO her as she has managed to soak hits in this same fights that can be argued as to do more damage than a fall from any height could inflict.
Ronan has fought more effectively and used a more varied set of attacks in this encounter than most of his other appearances on record throughout his entire career, I CANNOT believe that you keep INSISTING on trying to downplay Gamora's feat by trying to state that Ronan wasn't fighting effectively here. Are you high???
Lol, can you perhaps explain to me why Ronan let Gamora go when he had her in his grip? Why he only chose to hit her once?
Can you explain why he opted to let her go when he had her trapped in a stasis field?
Can you explain to me why he didn't opt to fly?
Why he stopped keeping her at bay with the manipulative powers of the UL?
No, you can't. Because there IS no other reason than the sake of keeping the fight interesting for something that should not have made it past the first page.
I can't believe that you're assuming the position that Ronan in that fight WAS fighting effectively when he literally let her go/stopped attacking from range/willing went into melee multiple times in that fight.
Everytime he began to use his powerset effectively he stopped Gamora flat out... there's no reason for the fight to have continued and yet it did, because he stopped. What? Why would he change away from successful tactics? Yeah, that's PIS, and once again nothing she did there outside of strength made her any more a threat in that fight than Wolverine.
Are you SERIOUSLY trying to downplay the fight by throwing tactical what ifs??? Wow. That is just silly. Maybe you should talk to the Surfer writers on why each Surfer fight doesn't end up with him shrinking to microversal size and opening a black hole inside their brain.
It's called CIP/CIS. EVERY character has it in every fight. It's part of who they are. It's existence does not in any way constitute a lower performance level for that character.
Originally posted by jinzin
Lol, can you perhaps explain to me why Ronan let Gamora go when he had her in his grip? Why he only chose to hit her once?Can you explain why he opted to let her go when he had her trapped in a stasis field?
Why he stopped keeping her at bay with the manipulative powers of the UL?
Repeating the same thing 3 times now to try and falsely create multiple instances of him fighting ineffectively? Sad, really.
Here's a hint: You're not Ronan, you dont' know and cannot know his reasoning when he was fighting.
Perhaps he knew the stasis field can only hold her for a few moments.
Perhaps he thought her could finish the fight by blasting her while she was helpless.
Perhaps he wanted her to suffer.
Who knows?? Only the writer is privy to his combat logic and it's laughable that you even try to second guess it.
Originally posted by jinzin
Can you explain to me why he didn't opt to fly?
I don't know.
Perhaps he didnt want to be a big fat floating target? (Gamore CAN shoot energy blasts you know....)
Perhaps he knew that he could bring more power to bear at close range as he has his enhanced strength coupled with the energy hits of his UW?
Perhaps he thought he could hit her easier at close range because of her speed?
Perhaps a million other reasons. Who are you to second guess his combat logic here?
Originally posted by jinzin
No, you can't. Because there IS no other reason than the sake of keeping the fight interesting for something that should not have made it past the first page.I can't believe that you're assuming the position that Ronan in that fight WAS fighting effectively when he literally let her go/stopped attacking from range/willing went into melee multiple times in that fight.
CIP/CIS is a well accepted truth in comics. ALSO, in the forum fights in KMC, it does NOT in any way disqualify in question. You're poor attempts to downplay the fight notwithstanding.
Heck, ANYONE who's read Ronan's tactical choices in the past can easily say that this Ronan has fought more effectively and has used a more varied powerset than any of his other appearances throughout Annihilation to present day.
Originally posted by jinzin
Everytime he began to use his powerset effectively he stopped Gamora flat out... there's no reason for the fight to have continued and yet it did, because he stopped. What? Why would he change away from successful tactics? Yeah, that's PIS, and once again nothing she did there outside of strength made her any more a threat in that fight than Wolverine.
False. If you read the fight at all, she was avoiding his attacks rather effectively and when Godslayer came out, she had him pretty much on the defensive. A plot device ended the fight.
Your logic is flawed as always and insisting on it doesn't make it true.