HOM Wanda vs. Thanos w/ IG

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You are the only one deflecting here and have no rebuttal for my point. Simple question... Could the UN have erased just abraxas and fixed Eternity AND still have memories of certain events taking place or certain events not being erased that didn't do critical damage to the multiverse. Simple. IS THIS POSSIBLE ODG?

That's EXACTLY what I explained the first time around:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Your tenuous explanation can be summarized succinctly: Reed decided to nullify only Abraxas and Abraxas' past actions which caused Multi-Eternity to reset itself... EXCEPT for a bunch of Abraxas' past actions... OR... Reed recreated those bunch of Abraxas' past actions... right.

[b]1) Theoretically, it makes sense that a Multiverse-wide temporal reset would occur if past actions are nullified entirely -- even though that's never actually happened before. 2) It doesn't make sense that it would occur if only some of those past actions are nullified. 3) It doesn't make sense that a Multiverse-wide temporal reset would sustain itself, if some of those past actions ended up being recreated afterwards.

You're trying to deflect from this by aggrandizing the UN's capabilities. A transparent maneuver. The weakness in your argument is, it's not the UN's capabilities that are in question here. It's the round-about method of temporal resetting that's in question. I'm not arguing that the UN doesn't have the ability to destroy and recreate what it wants. I'm arguing that a Multiverse-wide temporal reset is only achieved, and sustained, through past actions being totally eliminated and remaining eliminated. [/B]

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. Because in order for the Multiverse-wide temporal reset to occur, or sustain itself, via Abraxas' past actions being nullified, then Abraxas' past actions had to be totally wiped away and remained wiped away. If Abraxas' past actions aren't wiped away or don't remain wiped away, then the Multiverse doesn't need to reset its established history.

That's EXACTLY what I explained the first time around: Pay attention.

Yet the multiverse was erased and reset...and not all of abraxas actions were totally reset and memories still existed. This was still true for the multiverse reset that took place. There were still memories and past actions not totally erased no matter which scenerio happened.

IG>UN due to versitility.

ODG just please explain this to me.Whats to stop the IG from

1: Teleporting to blast to another universe.
2: Stopping time and taking the UN
3: Stealing the users soul
4: Changing the properties of the nullification so it does nothing
5: Making the UN user fire on himself/give thanos the UN
6: Simply tank the blast then come back from oblivion

And due to the time gem he can due any and all of these the mili-second the match starts

Just please.Counter those.

Cant we just say that the UN has greater demonstrated destructive power, whilst the IG is more versatile and useful? All this is about is who would win if wielders of both items fought each other and i think both sides will agree that more often than not an IG user will win in battle.

Black bolt z: I've probably said 100 times, that the argument isn't about whether a IG user beats a UN user.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yet the multiverse was erased and reset...and not all of abraxas actions were totally reset and memories still existed. This was still true for the multiverse reset that took place. There were still memories and past actions not totally erased no matter which scenerio happened.

And the Multiverse indirectly resetting its temporal history -- by the nullification of Abraxas' past actions -- is both impossible and improbable. Because any temporal resetting is precipitated by past actions being wiped away. If they weren't completely wiped away, then the Multiverse doesn't completely reset temporally.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Black bolt z: I've probably said 100 times, that the argument isn't about whether a IG user beats a UN user. Except, the Multiverse directly being nullified and recreated by the UN outright (with certain changes) is both possible and probable. Because that's what the story foreshadowed and portrayed on-panel.

And the Multiverse indirectly resetting its temporal history -- by the nullification of Abraxas' past actions -- is both impossible and improbable. Because any temporal resetting is precipitated by past actions being wiped away. If they weren't completely wiped away, then the Multiverse doesn't completely reset temporally.

See... this is where you went wrong... It's not impossible for that to be the case. Improbable I've always granted because of the amount of evidence to the contrary. I think it's more probably the multiverse was reset and have always believe this to be the case. However, certain actions by abraxas and memories didn't totally have to be erased in EITHER CASE as seen on panel. Certain things that didn't cause havoc in the multiverse could still remain and the same with memories. I agree that isn't probable, but it's certainly possible with the UN as you've argued before numerous times.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Black bolt z: I've probably said 100 times, that the argument isn't about whether a IG user beats a UN user. Except, the Multiverse directly being nullified and recreated by the UN outright (with certain changes) is both possible and probable. Because that's what the story foreshadowed and portrayed on-panel.

And the Multiverse indirectly resetting its temporal history -- by the nullification of Abraxas' past actions -- is both impossible and improbable. Because any temporal resetting is precipitated by past actions being wiped away. If they weren't completely wiped away, then the Multiverse doesn't completely reset temporally.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
No its not but you have to take into account the user.And a big part of how the IG wins is because of the user.Do you deny that?

He doesn't argue against that, in fact, that is his argument. He argues that the user plays a key role in any such encounter, and thus, all things aren't equal when they are pitted against one another. So no, I don't think he disagrees with that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
See... this is where you went wrong... It's not impossible for that to be the case. Improbable I've always granted because of the amount of evidence to the contrary. I think it's more probably the multiverse was reset and have always believe this to be the case. However, certain actions by abraxas and memories didn't totally have to be erased in EITHER CASE as seen on panel. Certain things that didn't cause havoc in the multiverse could still remain and the same with memories. I agree that isn't probable, but it's certainly possible with the UN as you've argued before numerous times.

Abraxas only manifested when Galactus was a star. And the only reason he wasn't a star anymore was because Franklin reverted him back from being a star. But Franklin only reverted him because Abraxas was around collapsing the Multiverse. If Abraxas never collapsed the Multiverse, then Franklin never reverted Galactus from being a star. Obviously, Galactus is not a star anymore. And obviously it was due to Franklin using his powers, since he burned them out for near a decade. This is absolute on-panel proof, among other things, that specifically disproves your shoddy assertions.

I've never once argued that it's possible that the Multiverse went through a temporal reset while Abraxas' past actions still existed. That's literally the exact opposite of what I've been arguing. So cease putting words into my mouth. At this point, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Why are we talking about the UN in this debate anyway? Its not necessary. Why not get this back on track?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why are we talking about the UN in this debate anyway? Its not necessary. Why not get this back on track?

^ It's only brought up because people keep trying to reverse-project multiversal power onto the IG whenever it's involved in vs battles. IG doesn't have that level/scope of power/control.

HOM Wanda goes pms'y and whispers "No more Thanos" and that's it. IG-Thanos is going to turn back an omniversal Chaos Wave? Not really.

Not unless they want to rely on IG-Thanos easily turning back Wanda's tiny hex handblast back in Infinity Gauntlet, and extrapolate that into utter control over her powers so that IG-Thanos must easily pwn an omniversal Chaos Wave just as easy since its the same power. Sound familiar?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
ODG like it bring it to this debate even though almost everyone sides with IG.

He does have a very strong argument for the UN vs the IG. It certainly has more destructive power and can affect a greater area in one shot than the IG has been shown capable of doing. But straight up an IG user will win over the average UN user. The IG empowers its user and augments them. The user of the UN is not augmented themselves. So if two combatants with the same intelligence and physical capabilities fought, with one having the IG, the other the UN, the IG user would be able to employ the IG before the UN could be used to wipe out the IG user from existence.

Either way, none of this is relevant to this match up between Wanda and the IG.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ It's only brought up because people keep trying to reverse-project multiversal power onto the IG whenever it's involved in vs battles. IG doesn't have that level/scope of power/control.

HOM Wanda goes pms'y and whispers "No more Thanos" and that's it. IG-Thanos is going to turn back an omniversal Chaos Wave? Not really.

Not unless they want to rely on IG-Thanos easily turning back Wanda's tiny hex handblast back in Infinity Gauntlet, and extrapolate that into utter control over her powers so that IG-Thanos must easily pwn an omniversal Chaos Wave just as easy since its the same power. Sound familiar?

I've seen that alot and we both know the main culprit 😉 The IG is universal, as stated on panel it taps into the power of a universes Big Bang. As shown on panel the IG cant be used outside of its native universe.

As for the points about Wanda, shes very overrated. HOM Wanda didnt display any superhuman reaction time, the IG user would no doubt be able to deal with her prior to her using her powers. Furthermore a IG users control over reality would no doubt be superior to that shown by Wanda. Look back to my post on the previous page for all the details.

The Chaos Wave wasnt created by Wanda, it wasnt maintained and directed by Wanda. It was triggered by her amateur tamperings with reality which caused a tear in the 616 dimensional wall allowing the chaos energies Wanda used to transform 616 to seep through and tear through existence. The wave wasnt omniversal in power, however if left unchecked it had the potential to cause omniversal damage by going from reality to reality damaging their dimensional walls. Still a universal scale manifestation that left unchecked had the potential to do a far greater scale of damage.

un>ig

oblivion(the personification of the un) gave mealstrom the power to survive the ig

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He does have a very strong argument for the UN vs the IG. It certainly has more destructive power and can affect a greater area in one shot than the IG has been shown capable of doing. But straight up an IG user will win over the average UN user. The IG empowers its user and augments them. The user of the UN is not augmented themselves. So if two combatants with the same intelligence and physical capabilities fought, with one having the IG, the other the UN, the IG user would be able to employ the IG before the UN could be used to wipe out the IG user from existence.

Either way, none of this is relevant to this match up between Wanda and the IG.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I've seen that alot and we both know the main culprit 😉 The IG is universal, as stated on panel it taps into the power of a universes Big Bang. As shown on panel the IG cant be used outside of its native universe.

As for the points about Wanda, shes very overrated. HOM Wanda didnt display any superhuman reaction time, the IG user would no doubt be able to deal with her prior to her using her powers. Furthermore a IG users control over reality would no doubt be superior to that shown by Wanda. Look back to my post on the previous page for all the details.

The Chaos Wave wasnt created by Wanda, it wasnt maintained and directed by Wanda. It was triggered by her amateur tamperings with reality which caused a tear in the 616 dimensional wall allowing the chaos energies Wanda used to transform 616 to seep through and tear through existence. The wave wasnt omniversal in power, however if left unchecked it had the potential to cause omniversal damage by going from reality to reality damaging their dimensional walls. Still a universal scale manifestation that left unchecked had the potential to do a far greater scale of damage.

HOM Wanda was murdered. And resurrected immediately.

However you think HOM Wanda did what she did, she literally thought, "I don't like this reality. I want it to be different." And it was changed, throughout every alternate universe. The argument that it was only a universal reality change doesn't quite wash. There have been several reality changes that have washed over the entire 616 universe that haven't had the same effect across all alternate universes, i.e., IG-Nebula reversing all the damage wrought by IG-Thanos.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Except in Black September. Which for some reason, also ignored the LT's ruling that the Gems could never be used together again.

HOM Wanda was murdered. And resurrected immediately.

However you think HOM Wanda did what she did, she literally thought, "I don't like this reality. I want it to be different." And it was changed, throughout every alternate universe. The argument that it was only a universal reality change doesn't quite wash. There have been several reality changes that have washed over the entire 616 universe that haven't had the same effect across all alternate universes, i.e., IG-Nebula reversing all the damage wrought by IG-Thanos.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I've seen that alot and we both know the main culprit 😉 The IG is universal, as stated on panel it taps into the power of a universes Big Bang. As shown on panel the IG cant be used outside of its native universe.

As for the points about Wanda, shes very overrated. HOM Wanda didnt display any superhuman reaction time, the IG user would no doubt be able to deal with her prior to her using her powers. Furthermore a IG users control over reality would no doubt be superior to that shown by Wanda. Look back to my post on the previous page for all the details.

The Chaos Wave wasnt created by Wanda, it wasnt maintained and directed by Wanda. It was triggered by her amateur tamperings with reality which caused a tear in the 616 dimensional wall allowing the chaos energies Wanda used to transform 616 to seep through and tear through existence. The wave wasnt omniversal in power, however if left unchecked it had the potential to cause omniversal damage by going from reality to reality damaging their dimensional walls. Still a universal scale manifestation that left unchecked had the potential to do a far greater scale of damage.

Ooo Geez GS not you to. The IG is more than Universal as shown on panel. Period. Fact. It at the VERY least is Multi Universal.. AT THE VERY LEAST. Not just universal. Magus merging two seperate universes together from a totally seperate universe proves this beyond a shadow of doubt. Next the gems are from a universal big bang.. the are from the IB who recreated the omniverse and bestowed ALL of his power in gems. Not some, not half, not universal.. ALL of his power. Just because the 616 Gems have ONLY been shown to WANT to take over the 616 and therefore many words like this universe, this reality are used... doesn't mean that is all it's capable of. That is just all those people have wanted so of course the language would be as such. This is basic common sense and logic.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Except in Black September. Which for some reason, also ignored the LT's ruling that the Gems could never be used together again.

That story arc preceded the on panel showing that declared the IG couldnt be used in another universe. It also came before the on panel showing and handbook reference to the IG deriving its power from a universes Big Bang. A point which explains why the IG wont function beyond its native universe.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
HOM Wanda was murdered. And resurrected immediately.

Happened in Wandas reality wherein she set the rules. Who's to say that wasnt just a manifestation of her? Who is to say in her reality Wanda hadnt determined that her physical didnt house her essence and was expendable? Its a possibility.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
However you think HOM Wanda did what she did, she literally thought, "I don't like this reality. I want it to be different." And it was changed, throughout every alternate universe. The argument that it was only a universal reality change doesn't quite wash. There have been several reality changes that have washed over the entire 616 universe that haven't had the same effect across all alternate universes, i.e., IG-Nebula reversing all the damage wrought by IG-Thanos.

Wanda actually reached back in history and made changes so it would make sense that any alternate realities that previously branched off from 616 after the point of Wandas alteration would be affected.

Different authors have different ideas about how the various realities of the multiverse connect and affect each other. Some would say if u destroy 616, then as its the core reality others would be affected, whereas some would claim nothing would happen to the others. The precedence is there however. Just like when Legion brought about AOA by altering events in 616 he destabilised the entire multiverse.

Wanda applied this change throughout the 616 timeline and as the main reality from which alternates branch off from it makes sense that this spell would be present in alternate realities.