HOM Wanda vs. Thanos w/ IG

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Are you really arguing that?So the writers are supposed to say "and then the universe was nullified...oh yeah except for infinity gems"...no.They just don't bother.

This is what i had to say earlier with regards to the point youre arguing against:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was an irrelevant point anyway because the I Gems are inanimate objects, useless unless the sentience within has been activated (as with the Ultraforce crossover) or they are being wielded. So the gems being reset whilst they were effectively bricks says nothing for how a UN user would fare against a manned IG.

BUMP 😄

All argued out? Come on! 😱

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All argued out? Come on! 😱

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Nothing to argue.Give us a topic.

What we should have been debating about, Wanda vs the IG and why? 😂

I think shes overrated and have said why over the last two pages. Anyone disagree? 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What we should have been debating about, Wanda vs the IG and why? 😂

I think shes overrated and have said why over the last two pages. Anyone disagree? 🙂

But most people have said something along the lines of "Wanda is more sheer power but thanos can win through trechery,versiltility and such".

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Haven't really read the last two pages.

But most people have said something along the lines of "Wanda is more sheer power but thanos can win through trechery,versiltility and such".

I dont think she does have more sheer power though. When analysing Wanda and all she did people tend to have looked at everything superficially.

For example, she never created and controlled the Chaos Wave. That was a side effect of her tamperings with 616. Whilst manipulating reality a dimensional wall weakened and some of the energies seeped through and that was the Chaos Wave. Left unchecked it could have collapsed many dimensions across the multiverse by eroding their dimensional walls. But theres a few things to note, Wanda never consciously created it, or directed it. Her actions triggered it, so all it did is not attributable to her. Furthermore it was only a massive danger if left unchecked. Excalibur stopped it easily in a few panels. Megan absorbed as much of its energy as she could and the rest of the team sealed the tear. No big thing when confronted, its just that it could potentially have done loads of damage if left unchecked. But given who stopped it you could say the same thing about a variety of cosmics in Marvel and not even top tier ones as well.

As for her shutting off the X-gene across the multiverse, its not certain whether she directly did this across the multiverse or if when she did it to 616 it was carried across to other dimensions because alternate realities are 616 up until their point of divergence.

Plus even if she did directly cast it across the whole of the multiverse, its still a feat worthy of a universal power because its not like she was manipulating the total matter and energy of multiple universes. But instead affecting a small change in each reality. And when u think about all of the matter involved it doesnt qualify her as anything above universal. Its not like she was manipulating the total matter and energy of multiple universe simultaneously. Get my point?

Yes...

Originally posted by theICONiac
So again I say where does it say the UN owned the infinity gems of every universe in Marvel? Did these gems 'fight back' against the UN?

So again I ask, scans?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Then i guess its my job to make you aware

The HOM reality was given a reality designation of Earth-58163. Any warping of reality that results in a change of events from the mainstream reality results in an alternate reality with a unique universal reference.

How can you not be aware of the very clear distinction between the two realities when Wandas reality warp resulted in a different history which the whole saga took place in. Within a reality warp the reality warper determines the properties, they determine how reality plays out within their range of influence. Wanda was shot within her reality warp and she resurrected herself. Given that she has only shown this ability within her reality warp it cannot be assumed that its something she could do if she has not had the chance to apply her powers to herself or her environment. Wandas human reaction time lets her down. Thanos wins.

Wanda gets killed with her inferior reaction time, resurrects immediately (which she demonstrated on-panel), and says "No more Thanos."

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And how many of those alterations to 616 have been left in place beyond the story arcs they took place in?

Following Grant Morrisons run which made mutants a large part of society and took away from the X-mens traditional role and feel as outcasts of society, it was stated HOM was brought in to bring about a lasting change to the mutant status quo. So unlike the majority of these storylines whereby changes to history in 616 have been reversed by their conclusion, these changes were left in place allowing a later story to inform us of how far her spell actually reached when before that conversation between Beast and Dr Strange.

And you're not seeing my point. HOM Wanda didn't just alter 616 history. She distorted reality across every alternate universe.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I never said Beast did surmise that. All that was stated was that the spell affected many worlds and dimensions. It might not have said that 616's connection to alternate universes resulted in the spread of the spell but by that same token it was never explicitly stated that Wanda directly across the entire multiverse.

The nature of Marvel reality is that you have the core reality that is 616 and from this main timeline alternates spring off:

These alternates arise usually from artificial intervention. Attempts to change history from its set path. These alternate realities are branches off of a main trunk, what makes them diverge is an altered event. With that in mind, these alternate realities are the same as 616 or should i say are 616 up until this point of divergence. Wanda didnt simply change an event, she changed the properties of 616. She made the x gene inert. With that in mind, any reality that is truly an alternate reality of 616 would have been affected. That goes without question. If a reality isnt affected by such a wide reaching change to the characteristics of 616 then it is not an alternate reality it is a parallel reality. There is a difference, one Marvel has defined:

Alternate Earth

Parallel Earth

An alternate reality can refer to a divergent reality and a parallel reality. A parallel universe is unaffected by alterations to 616 and can have different properties and origins. A divergent universe is the mainstream reality up to its point of divergence. As stated, (with the possible exception of misnamed realities), there are no parallel realities within Marvel.

With that in mind, just to reiterate, a change to the characteristics of 616 is going to affect its divergent realities. If it doesnt, they arent divergent. Parallel universes dont exist in Marvel.

Changes to 616 reality don't change alternate universes across the board simultaneously at the point of divergence. Name me one 616 history-altering adventure that completely distorted every single alternate universe at the same time.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Legions tamperings destablised the core of creation the M'kraan crystal, resulting in a crystallization wave that was multiversal in affect as stated by Jahf. The story is so well known, surely scans arent necessary?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Wanda changed history through bringing about HOM. That is why HOM is recognised as an alternate reality with a unique reality designation. The No More Mutants change meant from that point onwards the x gene for the most part was inert. Therefore understandably, alternate or more specifically divergent realities stemming from 616 from this point would be affected by Wandas spell.

So until we have concrete confirmation, it is not certain whether the multiversal affect of this spell was direct or just carried across by the connected nature of realities within a multiverse.

Even if we were to treat your interpretation as the way forward, it wouldnt make Wanda a multiversal power. All she is doing is switching off a gene in each universe. She is not dealing with multiple universes total amount of matter and energy, but instead making a very small(in terms of a universes total matter and energy) change in each dimension. Why would that require her to be anything more than a universal power?

A battle between the post retcon Molecule Man and Beyonder resulted in small warpings of reality across the multiverse and post retcon theyre by canon below the Celestials and abstracts. The 616 Phoenix duplcated the essence of a tower and projected this in one act across the multiverse so it existed in every reality of the multiverse linking them. A relatively small change applied to each reality of a multiverse does not make you a multiversal power. Once again, manipulating the total(or near total at least) matter and energy of multiple universes simulataneously is what makes for a true multiversal power.

So either way youre arguing, Wanda doesnt become or lose out on being a multiversal power.

^ This sh1t doesn't happen every time reality/history changes in the 616 universe. In fact, it hasn't... ever. Until HOM Wanda. There's a clear distinction here you're trying to avoid for whatever reason.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Did Quasar even 'fight back' against Magus? Or did he get simply bushwhacked since he didn't even know the INCOMPLETE IG was operational and wasn't even trying to contend with the INCOMPLETE IG's power? Wow. You fell into that one pretty quickly.

Corrected.

^ Tell me how the complete IG would have changed how Quasar was completely bushwhacked and not 'fighting back?'

^ Not arguing that...just taking the hyperbole out of your statements is all...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Did Quasar even 'fight back' against Magus? Or did he get simply bushwhacked since he didn't even know the IG was operational and wasn't even trying to contend with the IG's power? Wow. You fell into that one pretty quickly.

^ Quasar, if he knew the UN's capabilities, could have just released the unfettered power of the UN and shot an instantaneous Multiverse-wide nullification/recreation blast. And the UN has released nullification energies several times in a row on-panel, i.e. morg using it against Tyrant.

Originally posted by theICONiac
^ Not arguing that...just taking the hyperbole out of your statements is all...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Quasar, if he knew the UN's capabilities, could have just released the unfettered power of the UN and shot an instantaneous Multiverse-wide nullification/recreation blast. And the UN has released nullification energies several times in a row on-panel, i.e. morg using it against Tyrant. Except the UN did, in fact, nullify the entire Marvel Multiverse and every single Infinity Gem existing within each alternate universe and "pwned" them, as much as Magus "pwned" the UN which Quasar held. And hopefully, now you see the point.

So your justing leaving out the context.So the writers are supposed to say "and reed nullified the multiverse...oh wait except the infinity gems.Yeah they're invincible"....no.They just don't bother.

According to you UN>LT.You were the one that showed me a scan that says that LT is present in every multiverse simultaneously.Thus when he nullified multiverse he nullified LT.

So can you say I'm OneDumbG0 and I believe that the ultimate nullifier can nullify the Living Tribunal

Oh the irony.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Scans of morg firing multiple shots?

So your justing leaving out the context.So the writers are supposed to say "and reed nullified the multiverse...oh wait except the infinity gems.Yeah they're invincible"....no.They just don't bother.

Uh, no. I was using your own logic against you. You are content mischaracterizing what happened in Infinity War and state that Magus "pwned" the UN, when the UN-user wasn't even fighting against any such power, much less was aware of it. And that's about as shallow as suggesting that the UN "pwned" every Infinity Gem across the Marvel Multiverse, even though anyone in possession of them wasn't fighting against such power, much less aware of it.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
According to you UN>LT.You were the one that showed me a scan that says that LT is present in every multiverse simultaneously.Thus when he nullified multiverse he nullified LT.

So can you say [b]I'm OneDumbG0 and I believe that the ultimate nullifier can nullify the Living Tribunal

Oh the irony. [/B]

So can you say "Straw-man, much?"

The irony, indeed.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't have em. He nullified Tyrant's legs. Then he nullified him completely.

Uh, no. I was using your own logic against you. You are content mischaracterizing what happened in Infinity War and state that Magus "pwned" the UN, when the UN-user wasn't even fighting against any such power, much less was aware of it. And that's about as shallow as suggesting that the UN "pwned" every Infinity Gem across the Marvel Multiverse, even though anyone in possession of them wasn't fighting against such power, much less aware of it. And LT exists outside the Multiverse. He's just the same LT when he does choose to manifest inside the 616 universe or an alternate universe.

So can you say "[b]Straw-man, much?"

The irony, indeed. [/B]

But see in infinity war both the UN and IG are mentioned as going up to each other.In Abraxas arc IG is never mentioned and thus is not taken into account.So once again is the writer of abraxas arc supposed to say "and reed nullified the multiverse...oh wait except the infinity gems.Yeah they're invincible"No.In infinity war both are taken into account. And the infinity gems only have power when being accessed by someone.They are not an ultimate power unless being used.

No you once posted a scan of LT simultaneously in all multiverses.So that means that you think that UN nullified the LT.You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
If you find them post them please.

But see in infinity war both the UN and IG are mentioned as going up to each other.In Abraxas arc IG is never mentioned and thus is not taken into account.So once again is the writer of abraxas arc supposed to say "and reed nullified the multiverse...oh wait except the infinity gems.Yeah they're invincible"No.In infinity war both are taken into account. And the infinity gems only have power when being accessed by someone.They are not an ultimate power unless being used.

No you once posted a scan of LT simultaneously in all multiverses.So that means that you think that UN nullified the LT.You can't have it both ways.

No. Quasar is shown going up against Magus. What kind of negative proof fallacy are you relying on here where the absence of the mentioning of the Gems during Abraxas presupposes that they're supposed to be the exception? The UN is nothing without someone accessing it's power either, so what kind of false distinction are you drawing here?

You're confusing me for someone else. The LT that shows up is the same throughout all alternate universes. If I ever said anything, that's what I said. Furthermore, I never said the UN nullified LT. So I'm not having it both ways. Again, "Straw-man, much?".

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Np.

No. Quasar is shown going up against Magus. What kind of negative proof fallacy are you relying on here where the absence of the mentioning of the Gems during Abraxas presupposes that they're supposed to be the exception? The UN is nothing without someone accessing it's power either, so what kind of false distinction are you drawing here?

You're confusing me for someone else. The LT that shows up is the same throughout all alternate universes. If I ever said anything, that's what I said. Furthermore, I never said the UN nullified LT. So I'm not having it both ways. Again, "[b]Straw-man, much?". [/B]

In infinity war saga UN is shown going up against IG.In abraxas arc IG is never even mentioned.So why are you trying to use lack of artifact to argue against the artifact?

No you didn't say that but according to you thats what happened.LT is existing simultaneously in all multiverses so when you say that reed nullified the multiverse your saying he nullified LT.Explain how if IG is there is can nullify IG but when LT is there it didn't nullify LT?

Double standard much?