HOM Wanda vs. Thanos w/ IG

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ooo Geez GS not you to. The IG is more than Universal as shown on panel. Period. Fact. It at the VERY least is Multi Universal.. AT THE VERY LEAST. Not just universal. Magus merging two seperate universes together from a totally seperate universe proves this beyond a shadow of doubt. Next the gems are from a universal big bang.. the are from the IB who recreated the omniverse and bestowed ALL of his power in gems. Not some, not half, not universal.. ALL of his power. Just because the 616 Gems have ONLY been shown to WANT to take over the 616 and therefore many words like this universe, this reality are used... doesn't mean that is all it's capable of. That is just all those people have wanted so of course the language would be as such. This is basic common sense and logic.

Bro....gradually merging two universes into one is still a universal feat. Youre still dealing with just a universal scale of matter. Youre bonding one universes atom by atom to another.

Furthermore the IG never actually accomplished this feat, it was in the process of doing so when Magus was stopped so the plan was never seen through to the end.

The Infinity Being got retconned. If you need me to post the necessary scans i will. As per current continuity, the I Gems tap into a universes Big Bang. Theyre very much universal. That is why they can only function in their native universes and why they have alternate reality counterparts as shown in What Ifs.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Bro....gradually merging two universes into one is still a universal feat. Youre still dealing with just a universal scale of matter. Youre bonding one universes atom by atom to another.

Furthermore the IG never actually accomplished this feat, it was in the process of doing so when Magus was stopped so the plan was never seen through to the end.

The Infinity Being got retconned. If you need me to post the necessary scans i will. As per current continuity, the I Gems tap into a universes Big Bang. Theyre very much universal. That is why they can only function in their native universes and why they have alternate reality counterparts as shown in What Ifs.

wait Wait... so you're saying you don't believe the on panel facts stated in the comic? He merged TWO seperate universes from a TOTALLY seperate universe. That is a multi-universal feat.. Period. On panel narration makes it clear... that a process that was taking 5 CC hours the IG was doing instantly. Fact. Are you saying this narration isn't on panel facts?

Lastly, yes I would love the scans where the IB was rectonned and him recreating the Omniverse is no longer true. I respect you as a seasoned debator GS.. but I totally disagree that the IG was only Universal.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Thanos also said I want this reality to be different and it happened.Wandas was just on a larger scale.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That story arc preceded the on panel showing that declared the IG couldnt be used in another universe. It also came before the on panel showing and handbook reference to the IG deriving its power from a universes Big Bang. A point which explains why the IG wont function beyond its native universe.

Happened in Wandas reality wherein she set the rules. Who's to say that wasnt just a manifestation of her? Who is to say in her reality Wanda hadnt determined that her physical didnt house her essence and was expendable? Its a possibility.

"Wanda's reality" was the made-over 616 universe. I am unaware of any distinction. Given that, if what appears to be her physical body doesn't actually house her essence... then that possibility places a serious wrinkle in IG-Thanos proponents holding Wanda's physicality against her in a fight, e.g., her reaction time.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Wanda actually reached back in history and made changes so it would make sense that any alternate realities that previously branched off from 616 after the point of Wandas alteration would be affected.

Different authors have different ideas about how the various realities of the multiverse connect and affect each other. Some would say if u destroy 616, then as its the core reality others would be affected, whereas some would claim nothing would happen to the others. The precedence is there however. Just like when Legion brought about AOA by altering events in 616 he destabilised the entire multiverse.

Wanda applied this change throughout the 616 timeline and as the main reality from which alternates branch off from it makes sense that this spell would be present in alternate realities.

Different authors have different ideas, but I don't recall the entire multiverse being destablized by the events surrounding Age of Apocalypse.

It appeared to me that whatever her intention was, her power directly extended and cascaded throughout all alternate realities.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
IG>UN due to versitility.

ODG just please explain this to me.Whats to stop the IG from

1: Teleporting to blast to another universe.
2: Stopping time and taking the UN
3: Stealing the users soul
4: Changing the properties of the nullification so it does nothing
5: Making the UN user fire on himself/give thanos the UN
6: Simply tank the blast then come back from oblivion

And due to the time gem he can due any and all of these the mili-second the match starts

Just please.Counter those.

^ Because you want to argue an issue that I'm not arguing about?

1. IG hasn't demonstrated the power/capacity to shunt an instantaneous Multiverse-wide destroying/recreating blast to another universe (exactly which universe is this going to? lulz).
2. Depends who's using the UN.
3. Same.
4. IG hasn't demonstrated the power/capacity to change the properties of an instantaneous Multiverse-wide nullification blast.
5. Depends who's using the UN. But Galactus has done the latter.
6. IG hasn't demonstrated the power/capacity to bring its user back from oblivion or undo a temporal reset whereby the user never received the IG in the first place.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
wait Wait... so you're saying you don't believe the on panel facts stated in the comic? He merged TWO seperate universes from a TOTALLY seperate universe. That is a multi-universal feat.. Period. On panel narration makes it clear... that a process that was taking 5 CC hours the IG was doing instantly. Fact. Are you saying this narration isn't on panel facts?

First off, bro chill. This is just a meaningless debate. Dont get so hyped up about things. 😆

Secondly no im not saying i dont believe on oanel facts. Im saying that the way youve chosen to interpret on panel events is incorrect.

In this 1st scan Magus talks of merging the two universes and we are shown a visualization of the event occuring:

Let me emphasize "occurring" because on the following page Prof X refers to how he can feel the universe "metamorphosing" into something different. Its happening, the previous page didnt depict the completion of the task, just that Magus was in the final stages.

Two pages later we still see that the process was never completed:

Galactus refers to how energy levels are up in the target dimension and alterations are taking place in 616. It was a process that was ongoing past that initial page which so many claim shows the completed merger.

Further more the merging of two universes is still a universal feat. Because Magus was still only dealing with a universal amount of matter. Think about it in simple terms, taking one atom from 616 and matching it up to another atom in the universe its to be paired with. Youre never dealing with more than one universes worth of matter. If he was to create a new reality in 616 and totally alter reality in a separate universe then yes that would be multiversal. Multiversal power is the ability to perform feats across the total matter of multiple universes simultaneously. Magus matching 616 up with the matter of another universe making them one is not multiversal.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Lastly, yes I would love the scans where the IB was rectonned and him recreating the Omniverse is no longer true. I respect you as a seasoned debator GS.. but I totally disagree that the IG was only Universal.

Initially the I Being was all that existed in a void and its death created all realities and its power later manifested as the gems:

The Infinity Being went from being all that is within a void to simply being a sentient being native to 616:

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Theres no reference to its death creating reality, only the gems.

The 90's handbook entry of the Infinity Gem supports this retcon by confirming that the I Being was just a sentient being of the universe and making no reference to it being a multiversal creator. Simply a resident of 616.

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That was the 1st retcon. Shortly i'll show you the 2nd current one.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Because you want to argue an issue that I'm not arguing about?

1. IG hasn't demonstrated the power/capacity to shunt an instantaneous Multiverse-wide destroying/recreating blast to another universe (exactly which universe is this going to? lulz).
2. Depends who's using the UN.
3. Same.
4. IG hasn't demonstrated the power/capacity to change the properties of an instantaneous Multiverse-wide nullification blast.
5. Depends who's using the UN. But Galactus has done the latter.
6. IG hasn't demonstrated the power/capacity to bring its user back from oblivion or undo a temporal reset whereby the user never received the IG in the first place.

And thats each individual gem.Whole IG would WTFpwn UN.

Adam Warlock, longtime wielder of the Soul Gem and previous wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet states that the Infinity Gems power source is the Power Primordial which itself derives from the Big Bang:

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The Champions Of the Universe long time wielder of the Power Gem has a statement in his bio that supports Adam Warlock:

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It refers to how the gems are powered by the Big Bang.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
1: Okay mulitverse blast it can't teleport away
2: How does it depend?Thanos used the time gem of the freakin god of time yet someone else can resist it
3: The soul gem worked on mephisto in his realm so once again how does it matter.And then it wasn't backed by the PG
4: If it can change the properties of a small one it can a big one.Hasn't demonstrated power/capacity?The only thing it failed to due was beat LT which the UN has not chance of doing either.
5: Once again I still don't see how whos using it matters.
6: How are they gonna stay in oblivion?Oblivion doesn't have the power to keep them there.

And thats each individual gem.Whole IG would WTFpwn UN.

UN pwned every single Infinity Gem across the entire Marvel Multiverse when it nullified them all and recreated them.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
2: People have proven immune to time manipulation, even the IG's. crackers
3: Same. For example, a robot doesn't have a soul. vin
4: You haven't even proven it can change the properties of a small one. And Surfer can change the properties of a small rock, do you think he can change the properties of every rock across the Multiverse instantly?
5: It doesn't matter. Because even Galactus can do it. Now you see the point.
6: Why would nullified Gems even work? Why would a nullified person even function? Why do you ignore that a temporally reset person bereft of the IG is already beaten?

UN pwned every single Infinity Gem across the entire Marvel Multiverse when it nullified them all and recreated them.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

"Wanda's reality" was the made-over 616 universe. I am unaware of any distinction. Given that, if what appears to be her physical body doesn't actually house her essence... then that possibility places a serious wrinkle in IG-Thanos proponents holding Wanda's physicality against her in a fight, e.g., her reaction time.

Not really. Because the incident where Hawkeye shot Wanda happened within her established HOM reality. So like i said previously it is possible and definitely feasible that in her reality her physical form is expendable. Many reality warpers have determined the same thing such as Jaspers and Bradock.

However unless theres prep time for her apply her power to herself or her surrroundings, her reaction time will let her down as it is inferior to both a normal and IG enhanced Thanos.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
People make changes to history all the time in the history of Marvel, it's happened probably dozens of times. History changing in the 616 universe doesn't cause all alternate universes to have their histories wash over. What usually occurs is a branching off of a new alternate universe. That didn't happen with HOM Wanda, every alternate universe got affected.

Thats an assumption that it doesnt have affects on alternate realities. Could it be that the stories you have in mind just focused on the 616 repercussions? Its possible. Especially given that such changes are usually reversed by the conclusion of the story. With HOM it was different, the story was put in place to change the status quo of the Marvel Universe so Wandas alterations were left in place, hence why in later stories we were shown how alternate realities were affected.

Wandad didnt simply alter a one off event, which would result in a spring off alternate reality from 616. She changed the properties of 616 meaning throughout it the mutant genome was rendered inactive. Therefore it is feasible if not highly likely that alternate universes which derive from 616 would feel the affects of her spell as shown during Beasts investigations.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Different authors have different ideas, but I don't recall the entire multiverse being destablized by the events surrounding Age of Apocalypse.

So you dont recall Legions tamperings triggering the crystallization effect from the M'kraan crystal which was stated to be a multiversal occurence by Jahf the crystal guardian?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It appeared to me that whatever her intention was, her power directly extended and cascaded throughout all alternate realities.

But you dont know if it was a direct application throughout the multiverse or if it was carried into alternate realities because of the nature of a multiverse. Given Wandas on panel showings in this story arc namely how it was stated she had little control of her power and required the aid of Quicksilver and Prof Xavier to apply a paper thin reality warp over 616, it seems unlikely that she has the power to pull off this multiversal feat you believe in.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
UN pwned every single Infinity Gem across the entire Marvel Multiverse when it nullified them all and recreated them.

Scans?

^ Posted several times, even here in this thread. Abraxas arc.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
2: Who was immune to the IG's time manip?It stopped the lord of time so...
3: Good example.Funny.bad for argument
4: So your saying the reality gem back by the power gem can't change the properties of something?
5: So you agree that IG can make UN user fire on himself
6: When quasar was nullified he still had his powers while in oblivion.Why would IG be any different?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not really. Because the incident where Hawkeye shot Wanda happened within her established HOM reality. So like i said previously it is possible and definitely feasible that in her reality her physical form is expendable. Many reality warpers have determined the same thing such as Jaspers and Bradock.

However unless theres prep time for her apply her power to herself or her surrroundings, her reaction time will let her down as it is inferior to both a normal and IG enhanced Thanos.

And as I said before, it let her down when she was murdered by Hawkeye and as we saw, it didn't mean anything as she resurrected moments later.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats an assumption that it doesnt have affects on alternate realities. Could it be that the stories you have in mind just focused on the 616 repercussions? Its possible. Especially given that such changes are usually reversed by the conclusion of the story. With HOM it was different, the story was put in place to change the status quo of the Marvel Universe so Wandas alterations were left in place, hence why in later stories we were shown how alternate realities were affected.

Wandad didnt simply alter a one off event, which would result in a spring off alternate reality from 616. She changed the properties of 616 meaning throughout it the mutant genome was rendered inactive. Therefore it is feasible if not highly likely that alternate universes which derive from 616 would feel the affects of her spell as shown during Beasts investigations.

I don't remember Beast surmising that Wanda only affected the 616 universe. And that it was the 616 universe's connection to all alternate universe's that caused each alternate universe to change along with it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So you dont recall Legions tamperings triggering the crystallization effect from the M'kraan crystal which was stated to be a multiversal occurence by Jahf the crystal guardian?

But you dont know if it was a direct application throughout the multiverse or if it was carried into alternate realities because of the nature of a multiverse. Given Wandas on panel showings in this story arc namely how it was stated she had little control of her power and required the aid of Quicksilver and Prof Xavier to apply a paper thin reality warp over 616, it seems unlikely that she has the power to pull off this multiversal feat you believe in.

Again, if even half the adventures into the 616 universe's past caused the entire Marvel Multiverse to change, I might give you a 50/50 shot of your theory being true. As it stands, HOM Wanda is the exception to the current established rule, i.e., change history and you create an alternate universe. HOM Wanda is not the standard, because there have been dozens of adventures chronicled throughout Marvel canon that involve people changing the history of the 616 universe. And Multiversal upheaval occured in one of them (possibly).

quote: (post)
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
UN pwned every single Infinity Gem across the entire Marvel Multiverse when it nullified them all and recreated them.

Scans?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Posted several times, even here in this thread.

Huh...I must be missing something. You posted scans in this thread on pages 12/14/16/25/28/30/31/32/33 and not once was the infinity gems mentioned as being, uh, 'pwned' or anything else.

So again I ask, scans?

^ So again I say, look at the scans where the UN nullified and recreated them all along with the rest of the entire Marvel Multiverse.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ So again I say, look at the scans where the UN nullified and recreated them all along with the rest of the entire Marvel Multiverse.

So again I say where does it say the UN owned the infinity gems of every universe in Marvel? Did these gems 'fight back' against the UN?

So again I ask, scans?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
"Her established reality" was the warped 616 universe. Again, I'm not aware of any distinction.

And as I said before, it let her down when she was murdered by Hawkeye and as we saw, it didn't mean anything as she resurrected
moments later.

Then i guess its my job to make you aware 😉

The HOM reality was given a reality designation of Earth-58163. Any warping of reality that results in a change of events from the mainstream reality results in an alternate reality with a unique universal reference.

How can you not be aware of the very clear distinction between the two realities when Wandas reality warp resulted in a different history which the whole saga took place in. Within a reality warp the reality warper determines the properties, they determine how reality plays out within their range of influence. Wanda was shot within her reality warp and she resurrected herself. Given that she has only shown this ability within her reality warp it cannot be assumed that its something she could do if she has not had the chance to apply her powers to herself or her environment. Wandas human reaction time lets her down. Thanos wins.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's not an assumption, it's an observation. Do you know how many adventures have involved people changing the 616 universe's history? None of them altered the entire Marvel Multiverse. The only one who did was HOM Wanda.

And how many of those alterations to 616 have been left in place beyond the story arcs they took place in?

Following Grant Morrisons run which made mutants a large part of society and took away from the X-mens traditional role and feel as outcasts of society, it was stated HOM was brought in to bring about a lasting change to the mutant status quo. So unlike the majority of these storylines whereby changes to history in 616 have been reversed by their conclusion, these changes were left in place allowing a later story to inform us of how far her spell actually reached when before that conversation between Beast and Dr Strange.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't remember Beast surmising that Wanda only affected the 616 universe. And that it was the 616 universe's connection to all alternate universe's that caused each alternate universe to change along with it.

I never said Beast did surmise that. All that was stated was that the spell affected many worlds and dimensions. It might not have said that 616's connection to alternate universes resulted in the spread of the spell but by that same token it was never explicitly stated that Wanda directly across the entire multiverse.

The nature of Marvel reality is that you have the core reality that is 616 and from this main timeline alternates spring off:

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These alternates arise usually from artificial intervention. Attempts to change history from its set path. These alternate realities are branches off of a main trunk, what makes them diverge is an altered event. With that in mind, these alternate realities are the same as 616 or should i say are 616 up until this point of divergence. Wanda didnt simply change an event, she changed the properties of 616. She made the x gene inert. With that in mind, any reality that is truly an alternate reality of 616 would have been affected. That goes without question. If a reality isnt affected by such a wide reaching change to the characteristics of 616 then it is not an alternate reality it is a parallel reality. There is a difference, one Marvel has defined:

Alternate Earth

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Parallel Earth

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An alternate reality can refer to a divergent reality and a parallel reality. A parallel universe is unaffected by alterations to 616 and can have different properties and origins. A divergent universe is the mainstream reality up to its point of divergence. As stated, (with the possible exception of misnamed realities), there are no parallel realities within Marvel.

With that in mind, just to reiterate, a change to the characteristics of 616 is going to affect its divergent realities. If it doesnt, they arent divergent. Parallel universes dont exist in Marvel.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No, I don't recall it being a multiversal occurence. I recall it being a universal one that eventually branched off an alternate universe. The Age of Apocalypse reality is currently an alternate universe.

Legions tamperings destablised the core of creation the M'kraan crystal, resulting in a crystallization wave that was multiversal in affect as stated by Jahf. The story is so well known, surely scans arent necessary?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Again, if even half the adventures into the 616 universe's past caused the entire Marvel Multiverse to change, I might give you a 50/50 shot of your theory being true. As it stands, HOM Wanda is the exception to the current established rule, i.e., change history and you create an alternate universe. HOM Wanda is not the standard, because there have been dozens of adventures chronicled throughout Marvel canon that involve people changing the history of the 616 universe. And Multiversal upheaval occured in one of them (possibly).

Wanda changed history through bringing about HOM. That is why HOM is recognised as an alternate reality with a unique reality designation. The No More Mutants change meant from that point onwards the x gene for the most part was inert. Therefore understandably, alternate or more specifically divergent realities stemming from 616 from this point would be affected by Wandas spell.

So until we have concrete confirmation, it is not certain whether the multiversal affect of this spell was direct or just carried across by the connected nature of realities within a multiverse.

Even if we were to treat your interpretation as the way forward, it wouldnt make Wanda a multiversal power. All she is doing is switching off a gene in each universe. She is not dealing with multiple universes total amount of matter and energy, but instead making a very small(in terms of a universes total matter and energy) change in each dimension. Why would that require her to be anything more than a universal power?

A battle between the post retcon Molecule Man and Beyonder resulted in small warpings of reality across the multiverse and post retcon theyre by canon below the Celestials and abstracts. The 616 Phoenix duplcated the essence of a tower and projected this in one act across the multiverse so it existed in every reality of the multiverse linking them. A relatively small change applied to each reality of a multiverse does not make you a multiversal power. Once again, manipulating the total(or near total at least) matter and energy of multiple universes simulataneously is what makes for a true multiversal power.

So either way youre arguing, Wanda doesnt become or lose out on being a multiversal power.

Originally posted by theICONiac
So again I say where does it say the UN owned the infinity gems of every universe in Marvel? Did these gems 'fight back' against the UN?

So again I ask, scans?

It was an irrelevant point anyway because the I Gems are inanimate objects, useless unless the sentience within has been activated (as with the Ultraforce crossover) or they are being wielded. So the gems being reset whilst they were effectively bricks says nothing for how a UN user would fare against a manned IG.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ So again I say, look at the scans where the UN nullified and recreated them all along with the rest of the entire Marvel Multiverse.