HOM Wanda vs. Thanos w/ IG

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Thanks

In infinity war saga UN is shown going up against IG.In abraxas arc IG is never even mentioned.So why are you trying to use lack of artifact to argue against the artifact?

No you didn't say that but according to you thats what happened.LT is existing simultaneously in all multiverses so when you say that reed nullified the multiverse your saying he nullified LT.Explain how if IG is there is can nullify IG but when LT is there it didn't nullify LT?

Double standard much?

Uh... Quasar is going up against Magus. And even Thanos announces that Quasar is toast since Magus' sensors surely would have picked up his presence by then. And that's before anybody knew the IG was reactivated. Magus could have just blasted the fumbling Quasar. Infinity Gems aren't mentioned because they ain't worth mentioning, but they were all destroyed and recreated. But nobody was using their collective power to 'fight back' the nullification. So it isn't "pwning." As much as Magus toasting Quasar wasn't "pwning" the UN, since Quasar wasn't using the UN to 'fight back' the IG. Which is what you're still trying to characterize that scene in Infinity War as... despite you (ironically) attacking that exact, shallow and insipid rationale.

What are you talking about? LT exists outside the Marvel Multiverse, there's only one. I never said he existed inside each alternate universe. You even acknowledge I never said that and you're still accusing me of ignoring that rationale. Get it through your head, LT exists outside the universes he patrols and sometimes manifests inside them to deal with sh1t. Some of those alternate universes have been destroyed. That doesn't mean LT, or a piece of him, was destroyed along with it. Did a piece of the LT get nullified when an alternate universe was completely nullified during the Black Celestial Arc? No. And I never said he did.

Strawman, much... again? Somehow even after I explained it to you, step-by-step?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Np.

Uh... Quasar is going up against Magus. And even Thanos announces that Quasar is toast since Magus' sensors surely would have picked up his presence by then. And that's before anybody knew the IG was reactivated. Magus could have just blasted the fumbling Quasar. Infinity Gems aren't mentioned because they ain't worth mentioning, but they were all destroyed and recreated. But nobody was using their collective power to 'fight back' the nullification. So it isn't "pwning." As much as Magus toasting Quasar wasn't "pwning" the UN, since Quasar wasn't using the UN to 'fight back' the IG. Which is what you're still trying to characterize that scene in Infinity War as... despite you (ironically) attacking that exact, shallow and insipid rationale.

What are you talking about? LT exists outside the Marvel Multiverse, there's only one. I never said he existed inside each alternate universe. You even acknowledge I never said that and you're still accusing me of ignoring that rationale. Get it through your head, LT exists outside the universes he patrols and sometimes manifests inside them to deal with sh1t. Some of those alternate universes have been destroyed. That doesn't mean LT, or a piece of him, was destroyed along with it. Did a piece of the LT get nullified when an alternate universe was completely nullified during the Black Celestial Arc? No. And I never said he did.

Strawman, much... again? Somehow even after I explained it to you, step-by-step?

No he doesn't exist outside the multiverse.There is a scan that says that LT exists simultaneously in every multiverse.So when you say UN nullified multiverse it nullified LT.

No I never straw-manned you your just using a double standard.You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
So your implying that if qausar had known IG was active he would fought back with the UN?Thats not happening....

No he doesn't exist outside the multiverse.There is a scan that says that LT exists simultaneously in every multiverse.So when you say UN nullified multiverse it nullified LT.

No I never straw-manned you your just using a double standard.You can't have it both ways.

LT doesn't live inside Eternity or inside every alternate Eternity. Alternate universes have been destroyed on-panel, that doesn't mean LT, or a piece of LT, got destroyed also. This is self-evident. You can believe what you want to believe. Just don't project your own theories or other people's statement onto me, just so you can argue with something I don't believe or never said.

You can stop now. Thanks, much.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm implying that had Quasar had the opportunity (and wherewithal) to shoot first, and he "pwned" Magus who was unaware and fumbling around with the IG, it'd be stupid to characterize that as the UN "pwning" the IG. And it's as stupid as people characterizing the IG "pwning" the UN in the reverse. Ignoring that would be a double standard.

LT doesn't live inside Eternity or inside every alternate Eternity. Alternate universes have been destroyed on-panel, that doesn't mean LT, or a piece of LT, got destroyed also. This is self-evident. You can believe what you want to believe. Just don't project your own theories or other people's statement onto me, just so you can argue with something I don't believe or never said.

You can stop now. Thanks, much.

I said multiverse,not universe.Read it.

Stop what?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
What?So when Quasar shoots a UN blast that he would limit the size of no matter what,and the IG is not active it is fair but when IG is active and its under the same stips its not fair?

I said multiverse,not universe.Read it.

Stop what?

I don't care what you think a multiverse or universe is. There are alternate universes in Marvel. Every single one of them put together is the Marvel Multiverse. Marvel Multiverse and Marvel Omniverse are, for all intents and purposes, the same exact thing to me. If you want to place a bunch of very similar alternate universes together and characterize that as being a multiverse, fine. It doesn't change the fact that Living Tribunal oversees them all. And neither he, nor pieces of him, live inside any one Eternity, or all of them. Because it's quite obvious that LT, or a piece of him, doesn't get destroyed when any one of those alternate universes gets destroyed -- as many of them have been on-panel.

Stop trying to argue with things I don't believe and things I never said.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm saying assume the IG is active and Magus is just fumbling around with it, trying to limit its power and he -- along with the rest of the Marvel Multiverse -- gets instantly nullified, before doing anything useful with it. Does that mean UN "pwned" the IG? No? Exactly.

I don't care what you think a multiverse or universe is. There are alternate universes in Marvel. Every single one of them put together is the Marvel Multiverse. Marvel Multiverse and Marvel Omniverse are, for all intents and purposes, the same exact thing to me. If you want to place a bunch of very similar alternate universes together and characterize that as being a multiverse, fine. It doesn't change the fact that Living Tribunal oversees them all. And neither he, nor pieces of him, live inside any one Eternity, or all of them. Because it's quite obvious that LT, or a piece of him, doesn't get destroyed when any one of those alternate universes gets destroyed -- as many of them have been on-panel.

Stop trying to argue with things I don't believe and things I never said.

They are not the same thing to me.A multiverse contains infinite about of universes.Then a megaverse contains and infinite amount of mutliverses(there are more then one)and same with omniverse.

LT is present in every multiverse simultaneously so by saying the UN nullfied the multiverse and IG you must think it did the same to LT.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Why would he try to limit its power.The only thing quasar was limiting was the size.Thats a really bad comparison.

They are not the same thing to me.A multiverse contains infinite about of universes.Then a megaverse contains and infinite amount of mutliverses(there are more then one)and same with omniverse.

LT is present in every multiverse simultaneously so by saying the UN nullfied the multiverse and IG you must think it did the same to LT.

Whatever. Marvel Omniverse contains a crapload of universes. So does the Marvel Multiverse as I state it. You want to think of the entirety of Marvel publications as the "Marvel Megaverse," that's your cup of tea. Frankly, there's no distinction.

You must think that ignoring my opinions, statements, explanations and rebuttals is an invitation for you to straw-man me. Newsflash: It is not.

Until you tell me that LT, or a piece of LT, got destroyed when the Black Celestial Arc universe was completely destroyed (since LT supposedly lives inside these universes), I'm not going to bother deconstructing your straw-manning of me.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The why isn't relevant. The fact that Quasar did, when he had something that could destroy/recreate the entire Marvel Multverse instantly, is what's relevant. I'm mirroring the exact situation and asking you if Magus was fumbling around with the IG, and Quasar nullified the crap out of him before Magus could do anything, did the UN "pwn" the IG?

Whatever. Marvel Omniverse contains a crapload of universes. So does the Marvel Multiverse as I state it. You want to think of the entirety of Marvel publications as the "Marvel Megaverse," that's your cup of tea. Frankly, there's no distinction.

You must think that ignoring my opinions, statements, explanations and rebuttals is an invitation for you to straw-man me. Newsflash: It is not.

Until you tell me that LT, or a piece of LT, got destroyed when the Black Celestial Arc universe was completely destroyed (since LT supposedly lives inside these universes), I'm not going to bother deconstructing your straw-manning of me.

^ Irony.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You do realize that the effects of the Omniversal Chaos Wave persisted throughout all alternate realities even after the HOM reality branched off into its own alternate universe, right?

Irrelevant. The Chaos Wave wasnt a direct creation of Wandas. It is a fact that her actions merely triggered it as stated on panel. So while we can theorize about Wanda being able to create it directly and what she could do with it. All that the Chaos Wave did is not attributable to Wanda.

Please focus on the warping of 616 into House Of M and her application of the "No More Mutants" spell.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wanda gets killed with her inferior reaction time, resurrects immediately (which she demonstrated on-panel), and says "No more Thanos."

Youve overlooked my very relevant point. I will state it again, please counter it. Dont ignore it and then re-state your same countered argument.

At no point in continuity prior to House Of M has Wanda shown the ability to resurrect herself. At no point has she shown power over life or death except within her reality warp. House of M was a reality that Wanda created over 616. A reality wherein she set the rules.

Many reality warpers are indestructible within their reality warps. Take them out of their reality warps however and they and they are vulnerable, demonstrating how it is their ability to set the rules within their range of influence that renders them virtually indestructible. (Please reference how Fury killed Jaspers)

Unless you can show on panel instances or references or even handbook statements pertaining to how Wanda without having first applied her powers to herself or surrounding herself in a reality warp can make her physical form expendable and resurrect herself, then the point is conclusively void.

It happened within HOM. The reality she had determined. The point is clear, it stands to reason and it has backing within continuity. Either concede on this issue or provide the necessary on panel evidence. Responding with theory will not suffice. 😬

Thanos has a far greater reaction time as standard, with the IG he is amped even further. Wandas dead before she can blink 🙂

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Several. None of them effected changes across the entire Marvel Multiverse simultaneously however.

[QUOTE=12835974]Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[B] And you're not seeing my point. HOM Wanda didn't just alter 616 history. She distorted reality across every alternate universe.

With HOM she altered history thus creating an alternate reality. That doesnt match up with your statement.

With her spell on the x gene she affected mutants across the multiverse. Is that what youre referring to?

Well it needs to be because if youre referring to the Chaos Wave then then your statement is false. 😬

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So... Beast never surmised it and it's never hinted on-panel. So... speculation. Not just that... but conjecture derived from handbook entries. Changes to 616 reality don't change alternate universes across the board simultaneously at the point of divergence. Name me one 616 history-altering adventure that completely distorted every single alternate universe at the same time.

Dear oh dear. Where do i begin? 😂

For a start, my evidence was not only handbook definitions determining how Marvel see things and how all users of Marvel publications as a point of reference should see alternate realities, but i also posted an on panel reference explaining quite clearly and very recently(within the last year) how Marvel realities are connected.

Once again, divergent realities are 616 up until their point of divergence. So from the moment Wanda applied her spell to 616, any realities which diverged from 616 from that point would by the definition Marvel has given us in multiple publications, be affected by that spell.

Why youre asking for an instance where a history alteration to 616 affected every alternate universe is beyond me. Wanda changed history to create the alternate reality that was HOM. She never changed history by rendering the x gene inert otherwise that act wouldve created an alternate reality in itself. She applied her spell to the 616 present and therefore given the definitions given to us by Marvel and depicted on panel as ive shown, any divergent realities stemming from 616 after that point would understandably have the spell in them.

That is the very reason why the Endangered species storyline when depicting the realities affected, only referred specifically to future ones:

As shown in X-factor V3 #23 it was future(and therefore after Wandas spell to the present) timelines that were affected. Obviously alternates that diverged prior to Wandas spell would remain unaffected. But as shown in that story Wandas spell affected only 616 and future timelines.

A point which verifies what i said with regards to Wanda applying her spell to 616 and the spell reaching out into the multiverse via divergent timelines diverging from 616 after Wandas spell i.e these future timelines which are the only type of alternates referred to and stated to be affected. Anything else is speculation.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Surely they are. Just because it was dealing with an artifact that is connected to the Marvel Multiverse, doesn't mean Age of Apocalypse altered history across every single alternate universe. Scans or it didn't happen. Marvel: 1607 threatened to do that, via cascade effect (not even simultaneous distortion), but ultimately did not. Show me where it happened in Age of Apocalypse. HOM Wanda affected every alternate universe simultaneously.

You've missed the point of me referring to the incident. Your original claim was that no historical alteration had ever resulted in multiversal reaching consequences. I then replied quite correctly by drawing your attention to the AOA incident. If thats not what you meant then the fault is your own for being so vague with your statements. Never mind.

So with that said can you please tell me when Wanda affected every alternate reality simultaneously?

Right now as far as i can see, thats just your misinterpretation. If youre referring to the x gene incident then Beast and Dr Strange refer to how the spell affected many worlds and dimensions never ever is it stated that it affected the entire multiverse. Thats your supposition. Forge on panel clarifies that the affected realities are the future alternate timelines which would make sense given that nowhere are you ever ever told this no more mutants spell was ever cast on anything but the present. Therefore making it stand to reason that these possible futures derived from 616 that have yet to pass could be affected as shown by something applied to the present.

If youre referring to the Chaos Wave please refer to earlier paragraphs. Invalid reference

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You have no proof that her power was only limited to the 616 universe, and thereafter cascaded out via the 616' universe's distortion. You don't even have any sample precedent in all of Marvel canon history. What you do have is an on-panel description of HOM Wanda's power being attributed as the direct cause for the distortion across every alternate universe simultaneously:

^ This sh1t doesn't happen every time reality/history changes in the 616 universe. In fact, it hasn't... ever. Until HOM Wanda. There's a clear distinction here you're trying to avoid for whatever reason.

Another case of poor recollection or you just minterpreting what actually happened on panel. As stated on panel, the Chaos Wave was the leaking of warped 616 reality through a breach in the dimensional wall that Wandas alteration unwittingly caused:

Once again and hopefully for the finally time, the Chaos Wave was the leakover of one altered reality into the rest of the multiverse through a dimensional tear. This leakover manifested itself as a trans temporal tsunami which leaked into Otherworld which as the "primary intersection" or reality, the place where according to this story arc, all realities are connected to, it collapsed the structure.

"primary intersection"

So just a few things to note about the Chaos Wave. It wasnt a direct manifestation of Wandas power. It was the spillover of warped reality through a tear in 616's dimensional wall that Wandas alteration of 616 caused.

Wanda never directed, or maintained this Chaos Wave through any application of power. It was no conscious act by her, she merely triggered it. Same as i could trigger an avalanche in the alps through yelling. The resultant destruction of a nearby town could not be said to have been directly achieved by my power. I didnt shout the buildings down.

Therefore all the Chaos Wave did is not valid as a feat of Wandas power.

Furthermore as stated the Chaos Wave didnt expand across the entire multverse and collapse it. As clearly marked out in the issue, Otherworld is the primary intersection of realities. All or most realities are connected to it. Think of it as a keystone of reality. The Chaos Wave collided with the keystone, the weakpoint of reality and it caused a number to collapse on themselves. It didnt caused all of them to collapse or 616 wouldve been done for. It clearly wasnt. The idea that it reached out across all existence and simultaneously collapsed all realities is also conclusively incorrect. It leaked into Otherworld hitting the weak point.

You overlooked on panel evidence. I have highlighted your error. Take note.

In the end the Chaos Wave was stopped by Meggan who absorbed its energy to slow it down whilst the rest of Excalibur sealed the tear in 616's wall. The fact that Excalibur could so easily stop it shows that the wave was only a significant threat if left unchecked. If confronted then it is not the supreme manifestation of power you would like to hype it up to be.

Just to reiterate once more it dies not provide feats for Wanda.

Thank you.

Thanos wins 😄

^ And nothing there states that it is the 616 universe's own warping that directly causes every alternate universe to mirror that warping. The only thing they're commenting on was the origination point, i.e., the 616 universe.

At this point, you have conjecture. There's a reason the Chaos Wave reached Otherworld. And it's not because (i) reality warped in the 616 universe, or (ii) history was changed in the 616 universe. Because both those things have happened dozens of times to the 616 universe. And Otherworld, along with the Marvel Omniverse, wasn't caught up in a tidal wave of distortion any of those times.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Except the UN did, in fact, nullify the entire Marvel Multiverse and every single Infinity Gem existing within each alternate universe and "pwned" them, as much as Magus "pwned" the UN which Quasar held. And hopefully, now you see the point.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Infinity Gems aren't mentioned because they ain't worth mentioning, but they were all destroyed and recreated. But nobody was using their collective power to 'fight back' the nullification. So it isn't "pwning."

Are you screwing with me??? 🤪

Originally posted by theICONiac
Are you screwing with me??? 🤪

Originally posted by quanchi112
Mr. M put up a bio which directly states it was only the universe and multiverse was never stated it just undid Abraxas' actions. Odg is desperate and willl continue to speculate till he is blue in the face.

He is certainly a master of hyperbole, as I have referenced several times in this thread.

Originally posted by theICONiac
He is certainly a master of hyperbole, as I have referenced several times in this thread.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ And nothing there states that it is the 616 universe's own warping that directly causes every alternate universe to mirror that warping. The only thing they're commenting on was the origination point, i.e., the 616 universe.

Where did i say that? Youre putting words into my mouth or misinterpreting what i actually did state even though i made sure to repeat myself every few sentences.

Where does it state or show anywhere that these alternate realities mirror 616's warping?

In 616 there was a reality warp. Roma refers to this as a "global alteration". She states that this alteration has breached the dimensional walls. What we see depicted visually is this trans temporal tsunami which Roma later refers to as a chaos wave. Therefore straight up the reality warp, the alteration has torn through 616's dimensional wall and has leaked through.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
At this point, you have conjecture. There's a reason the Chaos Wave reached Otherworld. And it's not because [b](i) reality warped in the 616 universe, or (ii) history was changed in the 616 universe. Because both those things have happened dozens of times to the 616 universe. And Otherworld, along with the Marvel Omniverse, wasn't caught up in a tidal wave of distortion any of those times. [/B]

There doesnt have to be a reason why this wave breached the dimensional wall and reached Otherworld. We're not told this so you as a reader just like me and everyone else must accept that thats what happened because we're not given a reason. What you cant do is fabricate an explanation and attribute the waves path of destruction as Wandas will when no mention is ever made. This is a side story that doesnt feature or reference Wanda, its as simple as that im afraid. 🙂