NJO Luke vs RoT Bane

true. But we disagree on whether or not someone has to do something twice for it to be legitimate. I don't think he has to. It happened once. Since that time, he has had ONE time (his duel with Caedus,when caedus shoved him with the force) where it would help him to be completely anchored in one spot. He didn't do it, because, as the book says, he was expecting lightning, and had his hand up to block lightning.

Being anchored in place isn't a very useful skill, but he has never been in a situation where he tries to be anchored in place, and can't be, since dark nest.

In fact, in Omen,he is attacked through the force by The Hidden One, and even though he is unable to advance, he cannot be moved backwards.

So when has he ever been in a situation where it would be useful for him to fasten himself unmovable to the ground, and failed to do so?

Well, as you admitted, the technique was being offered as a form of telekinesis which is useful.

true, but as far as moving a black hole, all we have is the dovin basil, (which as i said the other day, would have to have mass at LEAST larger than the earth, because it pulls torpedos drastically off-course, which regular earth gravity doesnt. The gravity of anything is directly proportional to the mass of the object. )

But as far as the DN feat, the centering in the heart of the force seems to be more of an immovable kinda skill as opposed to the ability to reach out and physically push that black hole around.

But my contention is that when it says the black hole couldn't move him, it truly couldn't. Whether or not he could move it.

In other words, the Death Star probably had a lot of natural gravity on its surface... I digress... But i'm very interested by that all the sudden.

that death star sentence was supposed to go after the directly proportional to the mass of the object thing.

Originally posted by Eminence
Do you mean [in-universe] that it'd be easier to manipulate the black hole in question than pull a moon out of orbit, or are you saying it's easier to give a figure for the latter than doing the second calculation?

What I was saying is, that it would be easier to pull a moon out of orbit than generate, keep up and control a gravitational phenomenon similar to a black hole with the size shown in the story - because it would probably require far less energy.

See...in the SWU, they built ISDs with reactors that have an energy output similar to that of small stars - yet the Interdictor ships, capable of mimickring gravity of planets / black holes cost far more than an ISD because of the energy they consume. Which did result in only 100 interdictors being available to the Empire which controlled 25,000 ISDs.

The energy required to neutralize the actual explosion of the missiles is greater than that needed to simply pull them in and prevent detonation, which is why I wanted to make sure I knew the former was actually happening.

Not necessarily. If the missles detonate inside the anomaly, one has to nullify all energy put out by the explosion, while outside detonation would just result in the need to absorb the energy directed at the target protected by the dovin basal.

@Gideon

And the real answer to that question is that everyone will use PIS to their advantage in an argument.

And then those same people who use PIS here will b1tch about it elsewhere.

Well.
PIS only occures when a character doesn't use abilities he definitely has, and possible has even used before in a similar situation, because it would "ruin" the entire story.

The "Black Fleet"-trilogy actually equipped Luke with deus ex machina abilities to use whenever he wanted through manipulation of the "white current". He rendered an entire planet invisible using that ability, for gods sake. Less powerful individuals have rendered themselves both invisible and unsenseable in the force using the same trick. Technically, Luke could just use sneak attacks to get rid of anybody in his way. He doesn't. PIS?

The point is: Where do you want to draw the line? Your judgement of Skywalkers action appears to be completely random. When he isn't capable of defeating a droideka, it's something not fitting your view of the character - it has to be explained away. Likewise his higher showing also don't fit - so they also can't be canon. What if I now tell you that to me the black hole stories make sense, while I don't see why Skywalker should have problems with defeating Lumiya - now...are we going to explain that away or declare it non-canon because it doesn't fit my view of the character?

I don't see any difference between labeling a random action "PIS" or calling another one "N-Canon" because not matching the personal view of the character (or declaring it hyperbole when it appears too powerful). That's also not a way to determine the real strength of a character.

If someone, like Nai has attempted to do, can explain it rationally instead of saying "LAWLZ PIS IT STAAAANDS!" I'd happily discuss it.

I don't see you discussing my theory... 😉

Using Palpatine's Force Storms as rationale that he should be able to defeat Luke Skywalker isn't adequate. The Force Storm is a specific technique with a specific result; Palpatine doesn't use telekinesis or Sith lightning to rip apart the space/time continuum nor does he create the hyperspace wormholes through this; he summons them with mere thought or inclination. It's not an all-applicable power; it performs a specific function and, due to its destructive nature and scope, Palpatine cannot conceivably use it in a duel to the death.

Urm...
I don't see the problem here, Gideon. Sidious actually managed to use a force storm to transport Luke from the surface of Coruscant into the cell on a space-ship with perfect accuracy - why would he be inable to beam Luke and Leia from the Eclipse into outer space using the same technique?

Likewise, the guy who is able to instakill an entire regiment of storm-troopers and can reduce force users to ashes with his lightning can't make any greater use of the ability, than putting Skywalker on his ass.

Likewise, he claims to be able to kill anybody he likes everywhere in the Galaxy using the force - yet that ability appears to have vanished when a new "target" stands right before him. Hell. Why does he even send assassins to get rid off Skywalker, when he can simply do that on his own from where ever he wants?

On the other hand: Luke didn't simply use TK. He first focused on the force and felt it "like he hasn't in years". And with that intensity he reached out and probed the black hole and the dovin basals before taking any action against them. So, apparently, he needs time to reach a special level of attunement with the force in order to perform such feats. Quite enough of an explanation.

The fact of the matter is that there are far more examples of Skywalker's "limited" telekinesis than unlimited; the more recent, modern depictions show him as a powerful, skilled duelist who is not head-and-shoulders above his peers.

And that makes sense to you, provided he has inherited Anakin's potential, with Anakin being constantly descriped as "most powerful Jedi alive" and also viewed as such by his contemporary Jedi (e.g. Mace Windu in Shatterpoint)? The same Anakin who is capable of simply "deceiding" to win a battle against a master duellist like Dooku, based on his connection to the force? A guy that, according to Sidious, would have become far more powerful than himself or Yoda, while Lucas himself thought he might even be ten times as powerful?

Such an individual shouldn't be head and shoulders above his contemporary Jedi? I can understand that Jacen turned into a being capable of rivaling him; but anybody else?

That, actually, makes less sense to me, than him being able to control some black hole...

Here is my stance on this issue. Character X constantly underperforming when he's shown to be capable of godly feats, CAN be attributed to PIS/CIS. Character X having the ability to perform a godlike feat, even if it is performed once, CANNOT. I'm not sure how you tie CIS/PIS to a feat already performed, unless it is explicitly stated that it could only be performed once (Haven's force enlightenment.)

That is my stance as well, which ironically I am currently arguing in the VGVforum. As well as whether battle animations are accurate of a characters abilities.

Nai
Well.
PIS only occures when a character doesn't use abilities he definitely has, and possible has even used before in a similar situation, because it would "ruin" the entire story.

I would argue that this could work both ways: that a character can be portrayed in a more conservative fashion so as to avoid prematurely ending the plot, but that a character could also be used in a far more liberal fashion and imbued with powers normally outside of his arsenal so as to conclude certain plot points.

Nai
The point is: Where do you want to draw the line?

If a certain character demonstrates powers not in accordance (one way or another; high or low) with his previously established abilities and there is no official explanation for it, why should we take it as the gospel.

Hypothetically, say you have a thread in which Luke Skywalker ca. the beginning of the New Jedi Order versus three droidekas. What will be said? "Luke loses; he struggled with one droideka in Survivor's Quest!" Or "Luke wins; he wiped out a small army of droids in Dark Empire!"

Some people are pretty much saying "LOL let's go as hiiiiiigh as we can." But there's no real basis for going with a more liberal Luke as opposed to a more conservative one.

Personally, I would argue that a logical assessment of Skywalker's abilities and techniques would ultimately conclude that he possesses the power necessary to defeat three droidekas and then I would cite the various examples to support this claim.

TJ and company just seem to like Luke, want him to be the best, and thus that is why he wins. That doesn't cut it.

As far as the manipulation of the dovin basal and tethering himself are concerned, my argument is simple: if these are the result of telekinesis, then Luke has not demonstrated consistently this level of power. He is unable to use it against Lumiya in his many duels with her (at least one time would have saved civilian lives and enabled him to rescue Mara from Alema Rar); he is unable to use it against Caedus in his duel with him; he is unable to use it against the Hidden One (Outcast), against the Sith strike team (Abyss), against the Nightsisters and Viun Gaalan (Backlash). It should be noted that, in fact, Gaalan was actually able to overpower Skywalker's telekinetic attempts to immobilize his shuttle as he escaped.

One simply cannot wave all that away and scream PIS. With that in mind, I asserted that if these are the results of universal, every-day telekinesis, that the technique is limited in some fashion and really can't be said to be at Skywalker's disposal during anytime, anywhere, anyplace.

That is essentially no different from what you've argued, Nai.

Nai
Urm...
I don't see the problem here, Gideon. Sidious actually managed to use a force storm to transport Luke from the surface of Coruscant into the cell on a space-ship with perfect accuracy - why would he be inable to beam Luke and Leia from the Eclipse into outer space using the same technique?

What we see in Dark Empire is that the vortex of the Force Storm is huge. When it devours Luke on Coruscant, it ravages the surface and picks up massive amounts of debris -- wrecked AT-ATs and starships, as I recall. Perhaps there is a filtering mechanism that Palpatine is able to manipulate once the target has been consumed, but there is nothing to indicate that he can summon a hyperspace wormhole inside of a Star Destroyer and not die in the process.

Nai
Likewise, the guy who is able to instakill an entire regiment of storm-troopers

Those stormtroopers, despite the level of physical conditioning, are hardly Force-users with shields and defenses of a Skywalker calibre.

Nai
and can reduce force users to ashes with his lightning can't make any greater use of the ability, than putting Skywalker on his ass.

As Eminence has proven, those prophets were taken by surprise and not likely to have raised their own Force defenses against the Emperor by the time he attacked.

Nai
Likewise, he claims to be able to kill anybody he likes everywhere in the Galaxy using the force - yet that ability appears to have vanished when a new "target" stands right before him. Hell. Why does he even send assassins to get rid off Skywalker, when he can simply do that on his own from where ever he wants?

Perhaps this technique is the Force Storm; perhaps this technique isn't and requires meditation, a ritual, or preparation; perhaps he was lying. There is no discrepency here.

Nai
On the other hand: Luke didn't simply use TK. He first focused on the force and felt it "like he hasn't in years". And with that intensity he reached out and probed the black hole and the dovin basals before taking any action against them. So, apparently, he needs time to reach a special level of attunement with the force in order to perform such feats. Quite enough of an explanation.

No one argued that the technique couldn't be just simply limited in its application. This was, in fact, one of my original arguments.

I'm not sure what the problem is. Nobody is saying Luke is superior because he can manipulate black holes at will or because he is better than everybody. Him doing that just shows his potential, nothing more. I'm not sure what your problem with this is. I would grant the same standards to sidious, despite him showing his godly powers very rarely.

DS
Nobody is saying Luke is superior because he can manipulate black holes at will or because he is better than everybody.

😐

DS
I would grant the same standards to sidious, despite him showing his godly powers very rarely.

Sidious's "godly" powers have been substantiated and most of them are not applicable in a combat scenario.

I'm applying the same standard to everyone.

Originally posted by Gideon
😐

Sidious's "godly" powers have been substantiated and most of them are not applicable in a combat scenario.

I'm applying the same standard to everyone.

Originally posted by Gideon
I would argue that this could work both ways: that a character can be portrayed in a more conservative fashion so as to avoid prematurely ending the plot, but that a character could also be used in a far more liberal fashion and imbued with powers normally outside of his arsenal so as to conclude certain plot points.

The first thing you mentioned is PIS / CIS, the second you mentioned is a deus ex machina. In both cases, we don't get a hint of what the character is capable of "everyday". Yet, while one could say that PIS / CIS is happening at times regarding Skywalker, I don't see any real deus ex machina happening - at least not in the dovin basal scene in question. Luke's sudden ability to trick the dovin basals was not really required to advance the plot, provided that Jaina (as far as I remember) had found a way to trick the dovin basals before.

If a certain character demonstrates powers not in accordance (one way or another; high or low) with his previously established abilities and there is no official explanation for it, why should we take it as the gospel.

See. Here is, where our opinion appears to differ: Where you would write of such an event as "not canon", I'd try to explain it somehow in accordance to what we know about a characters abilities. If this isn't done, then we would be left in a situation in which everybody can do cherrypicking and single out feats at random (for good or worse) because not a single character depicts a constant level of force mastery / abilities.

As far as the manipulation of the dovin basal and tethering himself are concerned, my argument is simple: if these are the result of telekinesis, then Luke has not demonstrated consistently this level of power. He is unable to use it against Lumiya in his many duels with her (at least one time would have saved civilian lives and enabled him to rescue Mara from Alema Rar); he is unable to use it against Caedus in his duel with him; he is unable to use it against the Hidden One (Outcast), against the Sith strike team (Abyss), against the Nightsisters and Viun Gaalan (Backlash). It should be noted that, in fact, Gaalan was actually able to overpower Skywalker's telekinetic attempts to immobilize his shuttle as he escaped.

You forget to mention the very simple differences here:

a) Luke was basically meditating in a secure enviroment while overwhelming the dovin basals (not in combat, far less engaged in melee combat).

b) When he turned himself into the "immoveable object" it was to counter enemy telekinesis, which he doesn't do that often. The only other instance I can recall of my head is when he blocks the combined force chokes of Sedriss and his comrades on Ossus.

c) In the shuttle scene, would have just used enough power to counter the shuttle engines. So logically even a slight amount of force energy - suddenly - applied against that grip would have resulted in the shuttle escaping. I'm rather sure he didn't want to smash it into the ground by using too much energy, or did he?

So the circumstances are important.

One simply cannot wave all that away and scream PIS. With that in mind, I asserted that if these are the results of universal, every-day telekinesis, that the technique is limited in some fashion and really can't be said to be at Skywalker's disposal during anytime, anywhere, anyplace.

Well. The question is how to define "anytime" and "anywhere". Can he use TK to the "black hole manipulation level" instantly without preperation? I would doubt it. At least, when talking about "offensive TK" - in a defensive fashion, he can do it rather fast, as the trick in DN shows (albeit he was hit by Raynar first - and almost killed). If I recall correctly, he also countered all attacks from the Hidden One.

But then again, we would have to ask to which extend that does effect our usualy scenario here? Usually, we don't start VS fights in the midst of a lightsaber battle, but with two opponents at one place ready and prepared for a fight - both in top shape.

So let's just assume that a fight happens like the duel between Dooku and Yoda in AotC. Do you really think that there is a long list of people (including Lumiya or the Hidden One) capable of withstanding the most powerful attack that Luke could come up with in a "wizard's standoff"?

No one argued that the technique couldn't be just simply limited in its application. This was, in fact, one of my original arguments.

While this might apply, it isn't much different from going down the PIS / CIS / DXM road. So Luke can just muster that kind of power while meditating and only when trying to work against black hole wielding alien lifeforms? This seems to be as paradox as Sidious being inable to conjure smaller versions of his force storms to get rid of enemies.

I think the both of us have articulated our points as best we can, so we might have to agree to disagree.

But I do want to address a few points,

Nai
See. Here is, where our opinion appears to differ: Where you would write of such an event as "not canon", I'd try to explain it somehow in accordance to what we know about a characters abilities.

We absolutely do not disagree here. Nowhere have I said that we should just ignore it simply because it seems farfetched or because I don't like it.

This entire thread has been dedicated to explaining the discontinuity between Luke's demonstrated powers and you and I seem to arrive at the ultimate conclusion: these powers are, if canon, limited in one way or another and simply cannot be used at just any point.

Nai
If this isn't done, then we would be left in a situation in which everybody can do cherrypicking and single out feats at random (for good or worse) because not a single character depicts a constant level of force mastery / abilities.

To me, this is no solution at all. Because, using the scenario with Luke and the three droidekas, I could simply say he wouldn't win because of the scenario in Survivor's Quest and you would disagree and cite other sources, and neither of us would be wrong, nor would there be a logical way of concluding with any accuracy what the outcome of such a fight would be.

Originally posted by Gideon
We absolutely do not disagree here. Nowhere have I said that we should just ignore it simply because it seems farfetched or because I don't like it.

Well. Sorry. Then I apparently got you wrong there.

This entire thread has been dedicated to explaining the discontinuity between Luke's demonstrated powers and you and I seem to arrive at the ultimate conclusion: these powers are, if canon, limited in one way or another and simply cannot be used at just any point.

Yes. But the point is that we can't really grasp the rules of said "limitation". For example: Just imagine for a second my assumption that the "will of the force" may have something to do with that is accurate. How will that play out during in universe situations and, more important: How can we take that into consideration when discussing VS fights?

To me, this is no solution at all. Because, using the scenario with Luke and the three droidekas, I could simply say he wouldn't win because of the scenario in Survivor's Quest and you would disagree and cite other sources, and neither of us would be wrong, nor would there be a logical way of concluding with any accuracy what the outcome of such a fight would be.

Well. My point was that, embracing that view, one could question every single action of every single character unless it has been replicated somewhere.

So you can take Sidious cutting down the three Jedi Masters accompanying Mace Windu to arrest him and then question his ability to replicate that feat. You can questions Yoda's ability to defeat Dooku or even Ventress for that matter. Because, maybe, some element of oddity from the outer world (aka "The Author"😉 did f*** up something either by hyperbole or complete ignorance of abilities that certain SW characters have.

That is a "save" way, yes. But does it make sense in the context of a SWVS-Forum? I don't think so. So one has to think about, by what standards characters should be judged. Logical reasoning and deduction appear to be a nice way to cope with that problem...

Here's the simple solution. The authors of LOTF thought that the authors of DN/NJO(those who did not participate in LOTF) made Luke too powerful, so they tried to go towards the other extreme and make him seem normal. That's CIS/PIS. Here's the thing though. Sidious can produce force storms and other godly things. Luke is supposed to have more potential than Sidious. Ergo, I would think that Luke manipulating the dovin basals goes hand in hand with his potential and that "weak" Luke is a mixture of CIS/PIS and Luke admitting that he's not ever fully confident in his abilities(I forgot where that's from).

You know, Kyp also manipulated the doval basins. He did it without wearing himself out, and he did it in the middle of combat. So its not on an unprecedented level to be able to do that.

Nai
Yes. But the point is that we can't really grasp the rules of said "limitation". For example: Just imagine for a second my assumption that the "will of the force" may have something to do with that is accurate. How will that play out during in universe situations and, more important: How can we take that into consideration when discussing VS fights?

Assuming that your argument regarding the will of the Force is valid, then we can't interpret "the will of the Force" one way or another in a hypothetical combat scenario.

Which goes back to my original claim: these extraordinary powers (manipulating the dovin basal, immobilizing one's self beyond the power of a black hole) are not applicable during combat, one way or another.

Nai
Well. My point was that, embracing that view, one could question every single action of every single character unless it has been replicated somewhere.

So you can take Sidious cutting down the three Jedi Masters accompanying Mace Windu to arrest him and then question his ability to replicate that feat. You can questions Yoda's ability to defeat Dooku or even Ventress for that matter. Because, maybe, some element of oddity from the outer world (aka "The Author"😉 did f*** up something either by hyperbole or complete ignorance of abilities that certain SW characters have.

Those examples really aren't proper ones to use, though. The movies are G-canon, absolute, and overrule ancillary material and other EU. If Yoda demonstrates the ability to defeat Count Dooku, it's canon. Same for Palpatine's ability to outfight three Jedi Masters.

Nai
That is a "save" way, yes. But does it make sense in the context of a SWVS-Forum? I don't think so. So one has to think about, by what standards characters should be judged. Logical reasoning and deduction appear to be a nice way to cope with that problem...

Logical reasoning and deduction point to my overall claim, though. That these abilities are not applicable in combat by any means. But that requires not hurling PIS into the equation.

DS
Here's the simple solution.

This solution is only simple in that it really doesn't require analysis, deduction, or logical reasoning. The other solution offered is just as straightforward and has basis.

DS
The authors of LOTF thought that the authors of DN/NJO(those who did not participate in LOTF) made Luke too powerful, so they tried to go towards the other extreme and make him seem normal. That's CIS/PIS.

You're arguing (ironically) that the liberal portrayal of Luke Skywalker is the valid one and that the conservative Luke Skywalker is invalid. This doesn't work, though. Because if we're objective in the application of a single standard, we have to conclude that using Luke Skywalker as a deus ex machina qualifies just as much for plot induced stupidity as the more conservative, less impressive incarnation.

Not to mention, as I said, Troy Denning was the author of the Dark Nest trilogy, as well as one of the three contributors of both the Legacy of the Force and the Fate of the Jedi. That sinks the whole author angle right there.

DS
Here's the thing though. Sidious can produce force storms and other godly things. Luke is supposed to have more potential than Sidious.

What does potential have to do with anything? Anakin possesses the highest midichlorian count on record and possesses a Force potential at least as high as Luke's. Was he more powerful than Palpatine? No; he wasn't even in the same league.

Luke is sixty years old, operating in a world bereft of vast amounts of Force knowledge thanks to Palpatine's systematic purge. Only now is he beginning to explore the full spectrum of the Force.

Raw power only goes so far and while Luke has more of it than Palpatine, nowhere is it said that he even ranks close to the Emperor in acquired knowledge.

DS
Ergo, I would think that Luke manipulating the dovin basals goes hand in hand with his potential and that "weak" Luke is a mixture of CIS/PIS and Luke admitting that he's not ever fully confident in his abilities(I forgot where that's from).

The Unifying Force; but then you have to consider how casually he was able to subdue UnuThul wielding that awesome power of his. The whole fear angle doesn't work either; I expect Luke Skywalker to limit his aggression in combat, but if he's capable of wielding telekinesis to overpower dovin basals and tether himself to the ground beyond the power of a black hole, and he's able to access these powers whenever he wants, he should be more than capable of immobilizing the likes of Lumiya, the Hidden One, et al. and dump their asses in the nearest jail without breaking a sweat.

TJ
You know, Kyp also manipulated the doval basins. He did it without wearing himself out, and he did it in the middle of combat. So its not on an unprecedented level to be able to do that.

Wasn't he worn out?
And I definitely recall that that same passage concluded that Kyp was more powerful than Luke.

I don't think he was. Luke was worn out. they made a point of saying Kyp wasn't. the thing about Kyp> Luke was a direct quote from Kyp's thoughts. it concluded with "Kyp knew" or something like that.

But you are right, its in there.

TJ
I don't think he was.

Eminence quoted the passage a while back. I remember that it started with Kyp confident that he was more powerful than Luke and could manipulate the dovin basal casually. But I thought it ended with Kyp slumping into his chair, exhausted.

TJ
Luke was worn out. they made a point of saying Kyp wasn't.

I'm actually pretty sure that Kyp only thought he wouldn't be exhausted.

TJ
the thing about Kyp> Luke was a direct quote from Kyp's thoughts. it concluded with "Kyp knew" or something like that.

You sure it's not from an omniscient narrator?

😂

TJ
But you are right, its in there.

I'm pretty sure he ends up exhausted. But if he doesn't, it doesn't bode well for Luke.

I know LUke ended up in his seat slumped over, and I believed they contrasted it with Kyp not being that way.

It doesn't really say anything about Luke. It says something about Kyp.