perhaps in that application. Its been hinted at before. I would need more than this though. for some reason, doing things for the first time seems to be hard. (making the illusion of the millenium falcon wore him down big time, later he was able to do an entire fleet and even later a planet without breaking a sweat.)
It mentions that Luke had told Kyp what to do. Perhaps that is the reason for the difference.
You're arguing (ironically) that the liberal portrayal of Luke Skywalker is the valid one and that the conservative Luke Skywalker is invalid. This doesn't work, though. Because if we're objective in the application of a single standard, we have to conclude that using Luke Skywalker as a deus ex machina qualifies just as much for plot induced stupidity as the more conservative, less impressive incarnation.
Not to mention, as I said, Troy Denning was the author of the Dark Nest trilogy, as well as one of the three contributors of both the Legacy of the Force and the Fate of the Jedi. That sinks the whole author angle right there.
Here's the simple solution. The authors of LOTF thought that the authors of DN/NJO(those who did not participate in LOTF) made Luke too powerful, so they tried to go towards the other extreme and make him seem normal. That's CIS/PIS. Here's the thing though. Sidious can produce force storms and other godly things. Luke is supposed to have more potential than Sidious. Ergo, I would think that Luke manipulating the dovin basals goes hand in hand with his potential and that "weak" Luke is a mixture of CIS/PIS and Luke admitting that he's not ever fully confident in his abilities(I forgot where that's from).
What does potential have to do with anything? Anakin possesses the highest midichlorian count on record and possesses a Force potential at least as high as Luke's. Was he more powerful than Palpatine? No; he wasn't even in the same league.
Raw power only goes so far and while Luke has more of it than Palpatine, nowhere is it said that he even ranks close to the Emperor in acquired knowledge.
The Unifying Force; but then you have to consider how casually he was able to subdue UnuThul wielding that awesome power of his. The whole fear angle doesn't work either; I expect Luke Skywalker to limit his aggression in combat, but if he's capable of wielding telekinesis to overpower dovin basals and tether himself to the ground beyond the power of a black hole, and he's able to access these powers whenever he wants, he should be more than capable of immobilizing the likes of Lumiya, the Hidden One, et al. and dump their asses in the nearest jail without breaking a sweat.
Also, we don't see Sidious destroying everyone with his force lightning or the various other techniques from his allegedly limitless arsenal.
DS
Yet again, the fact that he already performed the feat cannot be used as PIS/CIS. He's already done it, the end.
It can't be used as an example of plot induced stupidity? Why? Because you say so?
Sorry, that isn't good enough. Even Nai acknowledged that there are examples of Force-users being imbued with powers outside of their normal scope to facilitate the demands of the plot.
This is a deus ex machina, and it is another form of plot induced stupidity.
DS
Nobody is trying to use it in a combat scenario so I'm still not sure why you're arguing this.
This has been posited as a form of telekinesis, which is applicable in a combat scenario.
DS
I'm afraid not, read the bold.
I'm afraid so; Denning was the one who masterminded one of these awe-inspiring feats and seems to disregard it in two subsequent series.
DS
This has absolutely nothing to do with anything, as Anakin was what, in his 20s with no real force knowledge and not even close to reaching his potential? Luke is 60 with over 40 years of unlocking his potential and if we are to assume that he is potentially more powerful than someone who can conjure force storms, then his ability to manipulate dovin basals, even if done once, isn't "shocking", nor should be considered deus ex machina
Why shouldn't it be considered deus ex machina? He demonstrates the power once for the demands of the plot and never uses it or anything like it again, even when such manipulation and telekinesis would be necessary.
DS
You getting defensive over Palpatine is predictable,
Let's get one thing straight before this goes any further. Our MSN conversation (like the previous MSN conversations) ended with an apology and you acknowledging that my previous argument was far more valid than you previously thought or cared to admit here. Your attitude was unnecessary and stupid, all things considered.
The discussion we had and the apology I received compelled me to take you off ignore. Don't make the same mistake here with your aggression and obstinance.
You want to talk to me? You'll do it civil. And this is non-negotiable.
DS
seeing as how nobody is comparing Luke's knowledge to Palpatine
You compared Luke's potential to Palpatine as the basis for Luke being able to perform extraordinary feats:
DS
Here's the simple solution. The authors of LOTF thought that the authors of DN/NJO(those who did not participate in LOTF) made Luke too powerful, so they tried to go towards the other extreme and make him seem normal. That's CIS/PIS. Here's the thing though. Sidious can produce force storms and other godly things. Luke is supposed to have more potential than Sidious. Ergo, I would think that Luke manipulating the dovin basals goes hand in hand with his potential and that "weak" Luke is a mixture of CIS/PIS and Luke admitting that he's not ever fully confident in his abilities(I forgot where that's from).
I countered that Anakin was potentially more powerful than Palpatine as well and didn't demonstrate any powers in the same league as the Emperor's.
Both Anakin and Luke's knowledge of the Force isn't even in the same order of magnitude as the Emperor's and, as I said, raw power only gets one so far.
I apologize if making a valid point and calling you out on a misstep qualifies as "defensive."
But I would agree that proving you wrong is predictable for me. 😖hifty:
DS
I'm pretty sure manipulating dovin basals isn't a "technique" that's learned, or require vast amounts of force knowledge as much potential, clarity, whatever the hell else Luke had.
By its very definition, it must be a technique. Be it telekinesis or anything else.
DS
That doesn't explain how the fear angle doesn't work. In the two times when Luke was facing life or death, or ultimate destruction, he pulled those things out of his ass.
I would argue that in any duel, Luke faces life or death. Failure to respond accordingly would result in fatality.
DS
I'm not sure how his fight with Lumiya
😐
...She nearly kills him in their first duel in Legacy of the Force. Or have you forgotten that? And he holds her personally responsible for the death of his wife in their third duel and still doesn't WTFpwn her.
Not to mention, of course, that had Luke responded "appropriately," he would have saved civilian lives in his duel with Lumiya, who was using them as living shields.
So either he didn't have the power, or he's not a hero.
DS
or the Hidden one counts.
The Hidden One clearly threatened Ben, demonstrated by Luke's warning to his son.
Not to mention that no one is suggesting that Luke kill the Hidden One. But telekinesis on the level you're suggestion should be more than enough to casually render him unconscious.
TJ
Also, it doesn't seem Luke gets mad often because when he does, he starts destroying a fighter ship or subduing Caedus. The point is he's very inconsistent and only when truly pushed, does he perform.
I'm not sure how this is relevant. Are you suggesting that Luke is some incarnation of the Hulk?
DS
Also, we don't see Sidious destroying everyone with his force lightning or the various other techniques from his allegedly limitless arsenal.
This has been addressed.
Originally posted by Gideon
It can't be used as an example of plot induced stupidity? Why? Because you say so?Sorry, that isn't good enough. Even Nai acknowledged that there are examples of Force-users being imbued with powers outside of their normal scope to facilitate the demands of the plot.
I prefer to write such things off, instead of PIS/CIS, as examples of people using their full ability to access the force. We have a LOT of examples of that happening, so if we can come up with an in-universe explanation, star wars is better off. Kenobi against Maul, even Kenobi against Grievous, Jacen in the NJO finale, Luke centering himself in the heart of the force.... The Padawan who fought off Maul for quite a few minutes in Shadow Hunter.
People refer to "in-the-zone" ANakin, I think its just an example of people really letting the force use them in pressure situations.
This is a deus ex machina, and it is another form of plot induced stupidity.
This has been posited as a form of telekinesis, which is applicable in a combat scenario.
Why shouldn't it be considered deus ex machina? He demonstrates the power once for the demands of the plot and never uses it or anything like it again, even when such manipulation and telekinesis would be necessary.
But Kyp did it as well, meaning it definitly IS possible, in-universe, thanks to the force.
Both Anakin and Luke's knowledge of the Force isn't even in the same order of magnitude as the Emperor's and, as I said, raw power only gets one so far.
So what makes one "more powerful?" Knowing techniques, or being able to access the force more fully? Considering how Sidious and Anakin went down, I would argue the latter.
I would argue that in any duel, Luke faces life or death. Failure to respond accordingly would result in fatality.
But it has obviously never been absolutely necessary for him to use any of these off-the-wall techniques. Considering he had to sit and prepare himself to move the basil, stopping in the middle of the duel to prepare would result in his death.
...She nearly kills him in their first duel in Legacy of the Force. Or have you forgotten that? And he holds her personally responsible for the death of his wife in their third duel and still doesn't WTFpwn her.
The Hidden One clearly threatened Ben, demonstrated by Luke's warning to his son.Not to mention that no one is suggesting that Luke kill the Hidden One. But telekinesis on the level you're suggestion should be more than enough to casually render him unconscious.
The Hidden One is suggested to be immensely powerful, however. And Luke and Ben's lives never seemed truly in danger in that confrontation.
Originally posted by Gideon
It can't be used as an example of plot induced stupidity? Why? Because you say so?Sorry, that isn't good enough. Even Nai acknowledged that there are examples of Force-users being imbued with powers outside of their normal scope to facilitate the demands of the plot.
This is a deus ex machina, and it is another form of plot induced stupidity.
This has been posited as a form of telekinesis, which is applicable in a combat scenario.
I'm afraid so; Denning was the one who masterminded one of these awe-inspiring feats and seems to disregard it in two subsequent series.
Why shouldn't it be considered deus ex machina? He demonstrates the power once for the demands of the plot and never uses it or anything like it again, even when such manipulation and telekinesis would be necessary.
Let's get one thing straight before this goes any further. Our MSN conversation (like the previous MSN conversations) ended with an apology and you acknowledging that my previous argument was far more valid than you previously thought or cared to admit here. Your attitude was unnecessary and stupid, all things considered.
The discussion we had and the apology I received compelled me to take you off ignore. Don't make the same mistake here with your aggression and obstinance.You want to talk to me? You'll do it civil. And this is non-negotiable.
You compared Luke's potential to Palpatine as the basis for Luke being able to perform extraordinary feats:I countered that Anakin was potentially more powerful than Palpatine as well and didn't demonstrate any powers in the same league as the Emperor's.
Both Anakin and Luke's knowledge of the Force isn't even in the same order of magnitude as the Emperor's and, as I said, raw power only gets one so far.
I apologize if making a valid point and calling you out on a misstep qualifies as "defensive."
But I would agree that proving you wrong is predictable for me. 😖hifty:
And finally, you definitely like to shorten the conversation by screaming "I win!" Now THAT makes me laugh, especially when it's untrue.
By its very definition, it must be a technique. Be it telekinesis or anything else.Why
I would argue that in any duel, Luke faces life or death. Failure to respond accordingly would result in fatality.
...She nearly kills him in their first duel in Legacy of the Force. Or have you forgotten that? And he holds her personally responsible for the death of his wife in their third duel and still doesn't WTFpwn her.Not to mention, of course, that had Luke responded "appropriately," he would have saved civilian lives in his duel with Lumiya, who was using them as living shields.
So either he didn't have the power, or he's not a hero.
The Hidden One clearly threatened Ben, demonstrated by Luke's warning to his son.
Not to mention that no one is suggesting that Luke kill the Hidden One. But telekinesis on the level you're suggestion should be more than enough to casually render him unconscious.
This has been addressed. [/B]
Originally posted by Gideon
Which goes back to my original claim: these extraordinary powers (manipulating the dovin basal, immobilizing one's self beyond the power of a black hole) are not applicable during combat, one way or another.
Erm...
By labeling those powers "extraordinary", you have already cast a judgement which doesn't have any base [under the rules you are using]. This is what I wanted to make clear the entire time. When feats of a character seem to variate in terms of power-levels, you can't make an accurate guess, which one is the the "regular" state and write anything else off as less accurate depiction (or assume there are some sorts of limitations appearing).
Or in short: The black hole manipulating godlike Luke might be the "ordinary" one, while instances that depict him as a weaker being may be "extraordinary". This is, to be honest, a reversed "PIS" argument. Where other people are saying that all "lesser feats" of Luke are PIS / CIS based, you are - at that point above - declaring that the "higher showings" may be all "deus ex machina" encounters of Luke.
On a sidenote: The feat of turning himself into an immoveable object was, as far as I remember, used during a confrontation (with Unu'thul / Raynar). So, apparently, Luke is capable to perform that in combat (not melee combat though, but a "force fight"😉.
Those examples really aren't proper ones to use, though. The movies are G-canon, absolute, and overrule ancillary material and other EU. If Yoda demonstrates the ability to defeat Count Dooku, it's canon. Same for Palpatine's ability to outfight three Jedi Masters.
Well, Gideon. The same is - technically - true for all other instances of canon until overwritten or officially "retconned". The point is that none of that happened for Luke's "higher showing" or "lower showing", which means that both are "true" in terms of canon parameters.
And I just mentioned the above examples because of the chaos theory. A small change in the initial parameters of an event may cause the entire event to change. Hence - for example - if you change the place that the "arrest" of Sidious occurs at, he might probably lose against the four Jedi.
The point here is, that one wouldn't be able to use a single event any longer in order to determine certain strength or weaknesses of a character any longer. This was done a lot by the Antedeluvians (including myself) in order to fight "definites" (in terms of power-levels).
The problem with finding an "explanation" is that to do that "objectively", one has to assume a certain power-level for a character (X) and then have a look at all situations in which the shown power-level differs from X and see if that can't be explained. And one would technically have to do so, until a power-level is found where all alterations can be explained away by extraordinary high or low showings of a character.
Logical reasoning and deduction point to my overall claim, though. That these abilities are not applicable in combat by any means. But that requires not hurling PIS into the equation.
This is, pretty much, a matter of a certain point of view. I for myself, rather than declaring that there have be some limitations of the powers, would rather look if there are circumstances that would influence Luke's ability to use said powers in a calm and controlled fashion (as he always did during his "high showings"😉. And there are quite much different circumstances that might be sided as diminishing Luke's ability to do so.
What does potential have to do with anything? Anakin possesses the highest midichlorian count on record and possesses a Force potential at least as high as Luke's. Was he more powerful than Palpatine? No; he wasn't even in the same league.Luke is sixty years old, operating in a world bereft of vast amounts of Force knowledge thanks to Palpatine's systematic purge. Only now is he beginning to explore the full spectrum of the Force.
Excuse me, Gideon, but I have to object here.
Luke was - as it seems - in possession of the Great Holocron which pretty much features the combined knowledge of the Jedi Order. Likewise he was in possession of Adas holocron with can be called the single greatest knowledge-base of the Sith. Luke had far more knowledge at his disposal as most other people in the mythos - at least past DE.
And I don't see what bringing Anakin up here does change? Anakin was a Jedi for 13 years before being turned into Vader. Luke has been a Jedi for four decades now and was equipped with far more actual knowledge (and most likely also combat and duelling experience) than Anakin has ever seen.
Raw power only goes so far and while Luke has more of it than Palpatine, nowhere is it said that he even ranks close to the Emperor in acquired knowledge.
See above. That aside raw power is enough to use "usual" abilities on extreme levels. Unless that is prevented somehow. And here you may ask yourself if you really think that Anakin should be inable to overpower Obi-Wan Kenobi with a force push (see RotS).
That aside: The RotS novel outright mentions a scene, where "raw power" overcomes a huge advantage in terms of knowledge and technical finesse. Anakin VS Dooku...
The Unifying Force; but then you have to consider how casually he was able to subdue UnuThul wielding that awesome power of his. The whole fear angle doesn't work either; I expect Luke Skywalker to limit his aggression in combat, but if he's capable of wielding telekinesis to overpower dovin basals and tether himself to the ground beyond the power of a black hole, and he's able to access these powers whenever he wants, he should be more than capable of immobilizing the likes of Lumiya, the Hidden One, et al. and dump their asses in the nearest jail without breaking a sweat.
The keyword is context. Anakin while emotionally out of control (end of RotS) is clearly not capable of defeating Obi-Wan Kenobi, when he has killed a clearly superior duellist (Dooku) before. Reason? The different emotional condition. Luke, pretty much the same but light sided, was perfectly calm when manipulating the dovin basals or becoming the "immoveable object". He was not when fighting Lumiya, the Hidden One or Shimra. Context.
One could easily assume that the death of Mara or various threads against Ben did influence Luke abilities. Hell. Wasn't that the entire original point with the "no attachments"-business of the PT Jedi Order? This doesn't diminish Luke's general level of power - yet it offers an explanation for alternating interpretations of the amount of power he's capable of applying in certain situations.
Originally posted by Gideon
The single greatest thing you've failed to address is the fact that Luke has not demonstrated this level of power elsewhere.
Im curious what your point is here?? Luke hasnt demonstrated this level of power anywhere else sooooo???? that means what??
Do you mean that this feat can not be used when comparing Luke's level of Power to others??
Because I specifically remember a few months back using that argument about Mace Windu's uber Force feat taking out droid armies with the Force alone in the cw mini cartoon. I said this is something he was never able to replicate anywhere else most notably in AOTC where it would have saved at least 200 Jedi lives.
You specifically intervened and told me I had to accept that feat as canon and that basically i shuld shut up.
Now Im not saying I was right there, or who is right now.. but Id hate to think the Great Gideon is hypocritical in his arguments 🙂
Originally posted by BorbaradThe keyword is context. Anakin while emotionally out of control (end of RotS) is clearly not capable of defeating Obi-Wan Kenobi, when he has killed a clearly superior duellist (Dooku) before. Reason? The different emotional condition. Luke, pretty much the same but light sided, was perfectly calm when manipulating the dovin basals or becoming the "immoveable object". He was not when fighting Lumiya, the Hidden One or Shimra. Context.
One could easily assume that the death of Mara or various threads against Ben did influence Luke abilities. Hell. Wasn't that the entire original point with the "no attachments"-business of the PT Jedi Order? This doesn't diminish Luke's general level of power - yet it offers an explanation for alternating interpretations of the amount of power he's capable of applying in certain situations.
Agreed. Jedi/Siths connection to the force vary depending on:
1) Their level of training.
2) Their emotional state and/of Clarity or Focus of their minds.
3) Their surroundings.
3 can be seen with Dooku being more powerful on Vjun, a place steeped in the darkside. Also the people in the surroundings make a difference. Vader was able to finally escape the grip of the darkside due to Luke being there. Luke was able to overpower Palpatine with Leia there.
2 is very important, and explains a lot of inconsistencies. Remember Yoda telling Luke in ESB something like "You must clear your mind". He was teaching him how to have his maximum connection to the force.
And lets not forget a conflicted Anakin not able to overpower Obiwan with the Force in ROTS and yet when he fully gave himself to the darkside and was much clearer on his focus(even if his focus was directed towards evil) was able to crush a medical room with a scream.
1 is seen throughout the saga. AOTC Anakin being no match for Dooku, CW Jedi knight Anakin being a much closer match, whilst ROTS Anakin was more than a match for the Count. ROTJ Luke was no match for the Emporer, and yet still the Emporer saw him as too much of a threat to him to be allowed to live, due to the Power he would attain with more kowledge/training and gaining a stronger connection with the Force over time.